Palo Alto University

[WisNeuro]

erg923 and PSYD are the same person on different accounts commenting on this forum.

No. They aren't.

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[WisNeuro]

Eh, I think all parties involved are a tad condescending. I will say that in my years of being in the field of Clinical psychology, I personally have seen great things come from the Ph.D. students at Palo Alto University, I work in a nearby hospital

Some of us think that rancor is quite necessary when faced with facets that are bad for the field (i.e., programs that put someone 200k+ in debt with a median outcome that in no way matches the debt load).

 

[erg923]

No. They aren't.

I do sometimes wonder if that 40 something, high rollin, private practice bachelor would like to trade places with the guy with a corporate salary and 3 kids under 5.

 

[PsyDr]

Erg and I are the same person?!

Your sarcasm is very unnecessary for a forum like this, this is a professional site, I would hope that we show compassion and respect for one another.

I disagree.

1) If you are referring to the ethical code, that is an aspirational goal not an enacted one. Respect, by definition, demands a sense of admiration. No one owes anyone a sense of admiration without any effort on the others part.

2) I've thought and read a lot about how I interact with people on here. Science requires a specific method. So does logical debate. The cbt literature is replete with evidence that logical thinking has a positive effect on ones emotional state. The psychoanalysitic literature indicates that a healthy person's response to a narcissistic injury is to improve and close the gap between the ideal self and ones behaviors. When someone comes on here and puts forward an argument based upon "you're stupid", I am genuinely concerned both for them, how such behavior makes the field look, and what the hell this type of inability to handle argument would do to a patient. So I point that out.

 

[foreverbull]

Erg and I are the same person?!



I disagree.

1) If you are referring to the ethical code, that is an aspirational goal not an enacted one. Respect, by definition, demands a sense of admiration. No one owes anyone a sense of admiration without any effort on the others part.

2) I've thought and read a lot about how I interact with people on here. Science requires a specific method. So does logical debate. The cbt literature is replete with evidence that logical thinking has a positive effect on ones emotional state. The psychoanalysitic literature indicates that a healthy person's response to a narcissistic injury is to improve and close the gap between the ideal self and ones behaviors. When someone comes on here and puts forward an argument based upon "you're stupid", I am genuinely concerned both for them, how such behavior makes the field look, and what the hell this type of inability to handle argument would do to a patient. So I point that out.

Fair enough, and to point 2, of course when someone in here starts mudslinging directly, it's fair to be called out. But sometimes, "you're stupid" is expressed indirectly by people in here without mudslinging to provoke it. For example, someone asks a benign question about a particular program or school and some of the responses are something like "no one in their right mind would pick X program because of Y," which essentially conveys the same thing to those who disagree, just one step less direct than "you're stupid." Point being, why not just say "I wouldn't personally choose this program because of Y fact or my experience Z." A point is still made without insulting those who disagree, and is thus even more effectively expressed because it is expressed without patronizing those with a different opinion. It also further encourages open discussion rather than looking like you're trying to shut people down. That's what drives me nuts about debates in here sometimes!

 

[PsychPhDone]

Erg and I are the same person?!

I have also been accused of being you two. It is a pleasure and an honor.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

They are indeed different people...though I'd love to see an SDN House like MTV Real World...

 

[PsyDr]

I have also been accused of being you two. It is a pleasure and an honor.

I noticed that you were also accused of time traveling back 7 years to create your account for the sole purpose of arguing with that guy.

 

[LiteratureJunkie]

Even if this were true, does it diminish the points each poster made?

All posts seemed to pick up upon your flawed reasoning and logic, and this bizarre attempt to focus on it not being a "professional school" when the program website clearly states the opposite. And Its not like anyone actually thinks "Argosy University" isn't a professional school, so what the difference, really?

And the name calling and IQ insults? Whats that about?

I don't believe that Argosy and PAU are at all comparable. Argosy has a huge stigma attached to it (not at all respected), whereas PAU is respected, seems to have pretty high internship acceptance rates and faculty/advisors who are big shots at Stanford. Many of them conduct research through their labs

Why would an ivy league school want to collaborate with a school which had such a bad reputation attached to its name? that doesn't sound logical, however everybody has a right to their own opinions and everybody should be open minded

 

[erg923]

Why would an ivy league school want to collaborate with a school which had such a bad reputation attached to its name?

Why is Stanford somehow deemed infallible? Prestigious institutions and people do dumb **** all the time.

Beyond this, why is their motivation for business partnerships (cause that's what it is) relevant to this discussion?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

When did Stanford join the Ivy League?

 

[LiteratureJunkie]

When did Stanford join the Ivy League?

Ivy Leauge of the Western coast, there is no reason to take out your aggression on me, I'm not taking sides in this debate. Stanford often ranks higher than most ivys, so I guess in a sense you're right, it's not an ivy league school, in many cases it's better.

Let's just all be kind and professional to one another please. There is no ill will here

 

[LiteratureJunkie]

Why is Stanford somehow deemed infallible? Prestigious institutions and people do dumb **** all the time.

Beyond this, why is their motivation for business partnerships (cause that's what it is) relevant to this discussion?

@PSYDR @erg923 Just for informational purposes, to branch off about what you stated in regards to your opinion on the supposed stupidity of Stanford's participation in the study of remote viewing (aka the "dumb ****" you mentioned above)- Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, Cornell, Duke, University of Virginia, UCLA, The University of Edinburg, The University of Amsterdam, and The University of Arizona to name a few of the prestigious universities- were also among those institutions to run scientific studies on remote viewing. This had nothing to do with financial endeavors, more to do with research. Remote viewing is actually considered a scientific study, even some of the brightest in the field of psychology & science conduct studies on this research topic. Sure it is an enormous challenge, if not impossible to apply the scientific method to, however, if we just assumed everything was impossible, would we have ever gotten to the moon? How is society supposed to scientifically advance itself if we gave up and said a certain field of study (X) was impossible to explore, we really don't know exactly how the universe works

Back to your allegation that Standford teamed up with PAU for 'business', you are implying that it is a partnership motivated by financial means as opposed to a partnership for other reasons such as shared faculty or a respect for the school. Which is sort of a biased opinion, considering Stanford has enough of its own wealth/funds. Let's say for arguments sake, if in some foreign universe, Stanford experienced some type of financial drought, it could have just partnered up with another university in the surrounding area, such as Berkley for example), however, whether other's opinions are correct or whether your own opinions and viewpoints are correct, we should still show respect and be kind on this forum

I always respect other's opinions on this site, I respect your opinions and I would hope that you would show me that same respect.

 

[PsyDr]

Stanford is not an Ivy. It's not even a seven sisters.

While an excellent school, there is a history of the institution putting its name on less than reputable endeavors. I would encourage anyone to read about the Stanford Research Institute and its remote viewing nonsense.

 

[erg923]

You're implying that it is a partnership motivated by financial means as opposed to a partnership for other reasons such as shared faculty or a respect for the school.

Dude...

 

[PsyDr]

Ivy Leauge of the Western coast, there is no reason to take out your aggression on me, I'm not taking sides in this debate. Stanford often ranks higher than most ivys, so I guess in a sense you're right, it's not an ivy league school, in many cases it's better.

Let's just all be kind and professional to one another please. There is no ill will here

Pointing out you are incorrect is not aggression.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Ivy Leauge of the Western coast, there is no reason to take out your aggression on me, I'm not taking sides in this debate....

It's not aggression; I was responding to a statement that was not correct.

 

[erg923]

Ivy Leauge of the Western coast

This is make believe.

 

[foreverbull]

This is make believe.

Is it? Among students I knew in the Midwest and on the West Coast, Stanford has a prestigious reputation. Growing up, I considered it Ivy League, if not officially. A friend of mine who wanted to go into a top school applied to Stanford for undergrad, among others like Harvard. So it seems to depend on who you talk to...

 

[PsyDr]

Is it? Among students I knew in the Midwest and on the West Coast, Stanford has a prestigious reputation. Growing up, I considered it Ivy League, if not officially. A friend of mine who wanted to go into a top school applied to Stanford for undergrad, among others like Harvard. So it seems to depend on who you talk to...

The Ivy League is 8 schools. Whether you or anyone else considers it be to otherwise does not affect the category.

 

[foreverbull]

The Ivy League is 8 schools. Whether you or anyone else considers it be to otherwise does not affect the category.

Hence why I said "if not officially," since some people also use the term more generally to describe a prestigious school, not just to describe the 8 "official" schools.

 

[PsyDr]

Hence why I said "if not officially," since some people also use the term more generally to describe a prestigious school, not just to describe the 8 "official" schools.

the league is an official category. Using it otherwise is incorrect and shows that the speaker doesn't know what the term means.

There's no debate to this. The Ivy League is defined.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

This horse...uhm....tree....has sufficiently been beaten.

Without looking, anyone know the PAU mascot?

 

[foreverbull]

the league is an official category. Using it otherwise is incorrect and shows that the speaker doesn't know what the term means.

There's no debate to this. The Ivy League is defined.

I'm not disagreeing that the Ivy League of 8 schools is defined, but where I grew up, it was also used colloquially as an adjective to refer to any prestigious school as shorthand to communicate that a school is one of the top in the country. Maybe you didn't grow up with that same colloquial use, but it exists, and it made me wonder if Literaturejunkie also meant the colloquial definition.

 

[PsychFL91]

This horse...uhm....tree....has sufficiently been beaten.

Without looking, anyone know the PAU mascot?

Guineafowl right? They gave us a stress ball version of one on interview. PAU had easily the most impressive gift bag of any school I interviewed at, so clearly the tuition money is going to good places. Jokes aside, I interviewed at for their PhD program as well as other PhD and PsyD programs at more traditional universities, so I can provide some perspective. I do want to point out that the PsyD Stanford Consortium is distinctly separate from the PhD program, so I can't speak to that.

I'll start with the positives. I genuinely think if you're one of the top students in the program you can get great training there. PAU has very close ties to the Palo Alto VA and the Kaiser hospitals. There is also an in-house clinic, but most programs have those. The school recently hired a new president and right around then is when their match rate started shooting up. I remember one commentator on here mentioning they artificially inflate their internship match stats by only allowing competitive applicants to apply, but I'm not sure how true that is. Also, the faculty size at the school is huge, so there very likely is a good research fit for anyone. I'm aware most neuropsychology tracks are just marketing, but the PAU neuropsychology track was one of the more comprehensive ones I've seen. Lastly, the bay area is pretty beautiful and if you're rich it makes a great place to live.

Now as far as negatives go the most obvious one (for good reason) is the tuition. I met a lot of people there who were taking out around 300k in loans. That is so terrifying I don't even know where to begin. The school also seems to provide very little in the way of funding. They have a couple small fellowships, but I didn't get one and every other school I got into gave me some level of funding in comparison. On top of the tuition, the cost of living in the area is off the charts too. One student told me if you find 2 other roommates you can all split an apartment for $1500 a month each (not counting utilities). While I didn't get the vibe from students that the program is competitive or cutthroat it's definitely structured to breed that type of behavior. At the end of your second year there's an intra-program match process for labs. Each lab takes 1-3 students and you are directly competing with your peers for those spots. From talking with students it definitely seemed like there was a hierarchy of labs and a lot hinged on matching with a good one. You are guaranteed to match with a lab though, it just might not be the one you want. If you're interesting in neuropsychology you have to apply to the track in your second year as well. The requirements to apply to the track seem unnecessarily strict too. The school's philosophy seems to be to let in as many people that may be qualified and weed them out the first two years. Several faculty and students warned us about how difficult the program is in the beginning, which explains some of the attrition. All schools are trying to sell you on interview, but PAU really tried to sell me on interview. They put everyone up in a really nice hotel, gave us gift bags, open bar and catered food at the meet and greet. It was my first interview, so it was a little disappointing to find out you don't get spoiled like that on other interviews haha. I was not 100% clear on this, but it seemed like your first year classes were taught by upper level PAU students. The undergrad psych degrees offered by PAU are just a handful of classes that students from the local community colleges take. There isn't an actual undergrad student body or anything. The campus is also extremely tiny, and really more of just a building than a campus.

I don't think PAU provides bad training, but it does add more unnecessary hurdles. If you are fortunate enough to have the means to afford the school without taking out loans and you're trying to start grad school as soon as possible then it may be worth a look. I do think that the top students at PAU would succeed anywhere though. I saw someone on this forum once say that you should succeed with the help of your grad program, and not in spite of it.

 

[LiteratureJunkie]

Is it? Among students I knew in the Midwest and on the West Coast, Stanford has a prestigious reputation. Growing up, I considered it Ivy League, if not officially. A friend of mine who wanted to go into a top school applied to Stanford for undergrad, among others like Harvard. So it seems to depend on who you talk to...

This response is to: @PSYDR :

Either way who cares? You take this site too seriously

I'm calling a ceasefire, please let's be respectful to one another

 

[LiteratureJunkie]

It's not aggression; I was responding to a statement that was not correct.

You're basing your side of the argument on your own interpretation and perception.

I'm calling a truce, I am not the one you are fighting against

You should let it go, everybody is going to have different opinions, that is a major part of life. Whether you agree or disagree is irrelevant

There is freedom of speech in America, thank goodness, we still have that right.

I shared my own opinion about the graduates from that program. In my own opinion and experience, they were intelligent and rather good clinicians. I work in a rather prestigious hospital in the Bay Area, so I figured I would speak on their behalf. I didn't think the comments by some were fair or reflective of what I have seen. I felt that there was bias, so I figured I would share my own experiences in working with them.

You should respect other's freedom of speech and drop the elitist attitude. Anybody can act elitist, but it's those with class and admiration who are humble and open to new ideas and interpretations. Barack Obama and his family are a great example. The perfect mix of class, humility, grace, and intelligence. Let's try and practice compassion when speaking to one another, whether it be online or in the field of Psychology. In a time of great unpredictability and turbulence- the world is filled with enough hatred and discrimination, people should not have to endure such treatment on the internet as well.

Thank you.

 

[LiteratureJunkie]

The Ivy League is 8 schools. Whether you or anyone else considers it be to otherwise does not affect the category.

No need to be hair splitting now, please let's play nice here.

No clinician or researcher I have ever met has ever acted this way real life. Let's have some respect for others in your field, please.

 

[LiteratureJunkie]

Stanford is not an Ivy. It's not even a seven sisters.

While an excellent school, there is a history of the institution putting its name on less than reputable endeavors. I would encourage anyone to read about the Stanford Research Institute and its remote viewing nonsense.

That still doesn't provide sufficient evidence that that is the reason or motivation behind why they collaborated with PAU.

Why are you fighting me on this? I wasn't even involved in the argument, to begin with. Why don't you take your anger and competitiveness elsewhere?

 

[LiteratureJunkie]

Dude...

I don't appreciate your sarcasm and disrespect. I'm sorry, I just don't buy your argument that a university as wealthy and prospering as Stanford needs funds from PAU. That just seems completely unplausible to me. Also, I do not believe a school such as Stanford would publically collaborate with another school, just for funds (as you say "business"), especially if the school had a poor reputation among it's colleagues

None of that makes an ounce of sense. Again though, it just seems to me that you have a very competitive and debasing attitude toward others and I think that you should learn to practice decency and respect.

I think your comments are a tad ignorant and it seems to me that you are desperately trying to go out of your way to degrade a school that you don't even attend, for no reason other than to 'win' a battle online with a bunch of strangers.

Mind you, I'm not in this battle, so why do you keep quoting my posts? Why don't you go off and debate with the person you were responding to, to begin with?

Let's end the discrimination and debasement, please. Again, we should all respect one another

 

[LiteratureJunkie]

This horse...uhm....tree....has sufficiently been beaten.

Without looking, anyone know the PAU mascot?

@Therapist4Chnge I sense that outside of this forum, you may be a tad sadistic, trying to degrade or humiliate other people? For what reason? There is nothing funny, humorous or respectful about that behavior. I don't care whether you are the president of the United States... (Oh wait).

Well anyhoo, it's shameful and unnecessary, most likely not even accurate. So let's move on now shall we?

 

[erg923]

@Therapist4Chnge I sense that outside of this forum, you may be a tad sadistic, trying to degrade or humiliate other people? For what reason? There is nothing funny, humorous or respectful about that behavior. I don't care whether you are the president of the United States... (Oh wait).

Well anyhoo, it's shameful and unnecessary, most likely not even accurate. So let's move on now shall we?

Lots of assumptions and charctacyer judgement here. Very (in)consistent with the liberal, California lecture from earlier. Complete with Obama references and worship. Classy, bro.

 

[LiteratureJunkie]

Lots of assumptions and charctacyer judgement here. Very (in)consistent with the liberal, California lecture earlier. Complete with Obama references and worship. Classy, bro.

I'd say I am as liberal as they come. However, I welcome all viewpoints, I would just hope that they are expressed in a respectful manner

Again we all have a right to our opinions, freedom of expression and speech

 

[erg923]

I would just hope that they are expressed in a respectful manner

Again we all have a right to our opinions, freedom of expression and speech

Whilst you judge the character of others and claim knowledge and insight into their behavior, right? How very "liberal/tolerant" and respectful, right?

See your above quoted post for reference.

 

[LiteratureJunkie]

Whilst you judge the character of others and claim knowledge and insight into their behavior, right? How very "liberal/tolerant" and respectful, right?

See your above quoted post for reference.

No need for rudeness

 

[erg923]

No need for rudeness

1. Why is it "aggressive" for others to point out your mistakes?

2. why is it "rude" to point out discrepancies between your claimed ideals and your actual words/behavior?

If you can logically argue this, we can be done here, as you claim to desire.

 

[LiteratureJunkie]

Even if this were true, does it diminish the points each poster made?

All posts seemed to pick up upon your flawed reasoning and logic, and this bizarre attempt to focus on it not being a "professional school" when the program website clearly states the opposite. And Its not like anyone actually thinks "Argosy University" isn't a professional school, so what the difference, really?

And the name calling and IQ insults? Whats that about?

While I wouldn't compare PAU to Argosy or Alliant at all, I agree that this person was extremely rude to everybody on this forum and that type of abusew

1. Why is it "aggressive" for others to point out your mistakes?

2. why is it "rude" to point out discrepancies between your claimed ideals and your actual words/behavior?

If you can logically argue this, we can be done here, as you claim to desire.

Here we go: I shared my opinion, that although I thought the person who was originally responding to you was very rude and abusive in the things he said, for example, stating that other's weren't as smart as the woman he knows. That is who I was referring to when I said rude and abusive in that post. However, I still stick with my opinion in that I do not believe personally, that PAU can be compared to Argosy at all. Argosy is not respected and has a large stigma attached to the institution. Whereas PAU is a respected school and many of the faculty/advisors are supposedly big shots in our field, especially in the surrounding California area (many of them are faculty at Stanford)

However it's pretty late and I am going to end this conversation, because I am walking my dog, drinking my tea and heading to bed with my wife.

Bonne nuit a tous!

 

[erg923]

I also said that freedom of speech is very important. It's also important to be tolerant of other's viewpoints. Which is why political activism is great, however, when political activism turns violent and degrading is when freedom of speech turns malevolent. There is a way to express our opinions without being cruel to others.

Dude, what the hell are you taking about?

You gonna actually answer my questions or not?

 

[LiteratureJunkie]

Dude, what the hell are you taking about?

You gonna actually answer my questions or not?

Actually I'm going to walk my dog and go to bed, becauseI'ves

Dude, what the hell are you taking about?

You gonna actually answer my questions or not?

I am downright fatigued by the entirety of this back and forth conversation. I'm going to.. 1) drink my tea 2) walk my dog and 3) go to bed

Bonne nuit a tous!

 

[erg923]

Actually I'm going to walk my dog and go to bed, becauseI'ves


I am downright fatigued by the entirety of this back and forth conversation. I'm going to.. 1) drink my tea 2) walk my dog and 3) go to bed

Bonne nuit a tous!

You could have just said no, instead of being all drama queen about it.

 

[LiteratureJunkie]

Stanford is not an Ivy. It's not even a seven sisters.

While an excellent school, there is a history of the institution putting its name on less than reputable endeavors. I would encourage anyone to read about the Stanford Research Institute and its remote viewing nonsense.

I've kindly posted a response to your post above

 

[PsyDr]

This response is to: @PSYDR :

Either way who cares? You take this site too seriously

I'm calling a ceasefire, please let's be respectful to one another

do you think it's respectful to say I take this site too seriously?

 

[erg923]

However, I still stick with my opinion in that I do not believe personally, that PAU can be compared to Argosy at all. Argosy is not respected and has a large stigma attached to the institution. Whereas PAU is a respected school and many of the faculty/advisors are supposedly big shots in our field, especially in the surrounding California area (many of them are faculty at Stanford)

Ok. So you're whole defense of PAU is based on an appeal to authority, right?

 

[erg923]

Is it? Growing up, I considered it Ivy League, if not officially. A friend of mine who wanted to go into a top school applied to Stanford for undergrad, among others like Harvard. So it seems to depend on who you talk to...

Yes. It is.

Growing up, I considered vanilla ice to be cool. This does not make it so.

 

[cara susanna]

I've worked with PAU students/graduates in several different settings now, specifically on internship, post doc, and my current VA staff position. My internship and post doc were at pretty prestigious sites and they took PAU students. They seem to be solid clinicians and also have good research training/credentials. That is not my concern.

The probably dead horse that I will continue to beat is that acquiring that much debt to be in this field is, in my opinion, not worth it. As I've said before on this site, my training was in the best possible circumstances financially. I went to a funded PhD program in a low-cost location. I had no student loan debt from undergrad or grad school. I had a solid teaching gig in grad school that paid fairly well, in addition to my partner having a well-paying job. And I had an inheritance from a relative that I could dip into as needed.

Years later, I finally have a "real" job and am making pretty good money in the VA system. I am currently drowning in credit card debt and struggling to stay afloat. First off, my partner has been unable to find stable work because we've had to move so often for internship, post doc, and then later my job. Second, the countless moving that we've done across the years has been expensive in itself. Third, I completed my internship and post doc in expensive metropolitan areas, making absolute peanuts. That doesn't even include money that we've paid for internship/post doc/job interviews, professional organization memberships, licensure, and other associated expenses. I can't imagine how people are doing with tons of debt on top of it.

Do I think that PAU probably provides solid training, based on my professional interactions with its students and graduates? Yes. Do I think the price is worth it? Hell no.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

@Therapist4Chnge I sense that outside of this forum, you may be a tad sadistic, trying to degrade or humiliate other people? For what reason? There is nothing funny, humorous or respectful about that behavior. I don't care whether you are the president of the United States... (Oh wait).

Well anyhoo, it's shameful and unnecessary, most likely not even accurate. So let's move on now shall we?

I reject your characterization, it's patently false. I'd also like to point out that this all started when I corrected a misstatement; I asserted a fact in place of a belief that was presented as...an alternative fact?

I wasn't malicious nor aggressive, but your responses have been; they have all felt incongruent to the present conversation and far more personal than warranted.

 

[MCParent]

I reject your characterization, it's patently false. I'd also like to point out that this all started when I corrected a misstatement; I asserted a fact in place of a belief that was presented as...an alternative fact?

I wasn't malicious nor aggressive, but your responses have been; they have all felt incongruent to the present conversation and far more personal than warranted.

Haven't you learned yet that disagreeing with someone is a personal attack, and asking for citations or evidence to support a statement is offensive and denigrates their experiences?

I'm sorry for the sad state of discourse in this country. Jeez.

 

[PsyDr]

Haven't you learned yet that disagreeing with someone is a personal attack, and asking for citations or evidence to support a statement is offensive and denigrates their experiences?

I'm sorry for the sad state of discourse in this country. Jeez.

War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.

 

[PsychPhDone]

Nobody has answered my inquiry about what their grads are doing. What percentage in PP vs hospital vs academia vs part time work? I find the faculty appointments as dubious indicators of full time work. What do they do? How do they pay off that debt?

Again, I've worked with some of their students but not enough to know what the overall picture looks like. I worry for them.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I knew one graduate and they secured a solid R1 (clinical & research) faculty position. They would be the first to admit they were likely the top student in their PAU cohort and they came into the program with extensive research experience. They were also willing to relocate around the country multiple times to take the best training opportunities and job, which was unlike some of their cohort-mates.

The feeling I get from PAU is similar to some of the poorly funded east coast programs at established unis. Their students tend to be fine in regard to clinical training, but the crushing debt is a problem w/o family or other $$.