Osteopathic EM programs

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Dannyboy676 said:
What does one do when you just don''t hear back from a program via email and they simply don't answer the phone or return messages.
Super unprofessional...at least say no.
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Ummm...get used to it
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gutonc said:
Ummm...get used to it
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Yep. It's why you always ask for more places than you need. Some of the WILL ignore you. I contacted and followed up with 10places (booked all the auditions I needed). Still have yet to get any reaction from 3 of them.
 
sb247 said:
Yep. It's why you always ask for more places than you need. Some of the WILL ignore you. I contacted and followed up with 10places (booked all the auditions I needed). Still have yet to get any reaction from 3 of them.
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This will continue at every step of your career. Silent rejections for residency/fellowship. Silent rejections for job apps.

You can get butthurt about it or you can live your life.

I'm not saying it's not unprofessional (I'm personally still waiting for my Stanford residency application rejection, 12 years later) but it's the nature of the beast.
 
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SevenSummitz said:
Anyone know when there will be an updated list on all the programs that are remaining in the AOA match for the upcoming cycle?
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https://apps.acgme.org/ads/Public/Reports/ReportRun?ReportId=18&CurrentYear=2016&SpecialtyId=10

All programs that are still in Pre-accredidation status are eligible for the AOA match (22 total). All the programs in initial accredidation status are eligible for the ACGME match (28 t0tal). Some of the initial accredidation status programs could be in the AOA match too as long as they stayed four years, but I wouldn't count on this being a ton of programs. I'd expect maybe 30 or so options in the AOA match this year. For comparisons sake, there were over 60 two years ago.
 
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P.s. The particular program I was interested in finally got back to me after over a month of waiting! But yes, like dating, one must get to the new phenomenon of ghosting.


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Dannyboy676 said:
P.s. The particular program I was interested in finally got back to me after over a month of waiting! But yes, like dating, one must get to the new phenomenon of ghosting.


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If I got silently rejected from dating at a rate typical of any application process, I would probably consider changing my dating strategy....
 
AlgernonMed said:
If I got silently rejected from dating at a rate typical of any application process, I would probably consider changing my dating strategy....
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LOL I never said anything about the rate.


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gamerEMdoc said:
https://apps.acgme.org/ads/Public/Reports/ReportRun?ReportId=18&CurrentYear=2016&SpecialtyId=10

All programs that are still in Pre-accredidation status are eligible for the AOA match (22 total). All the programs in initial accredidation status are eligible for the ACGME match (28 t0tal). Some of the initial accredidation status programs could be in the AOA match too as long as they stayed four years, but I wouldn't count on this being a ton of programs. I'd expect maybe 30 or so options in the AOA match this year. For comparisons sake, there were over 60 two years ago.
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Thank you very much for your insight!
 
gamerEMdoc said:
https://apps.acgme.org/ads/Public/Reports/ReportRun?ReportId=18&CurrentYear=2016&SpecialtyId=10

All programs that are still in Pre-accredidation status are eligible for the AOA match (22 total). All the programs in initial accredidation status are eligible for the ACGME match (28 t0tal). Some of the initial accredidation status programs could be in the AOA match too as long as they stayed four years, but I wouldn't count on this being a ton of programs. I'd expect maybe 30 or so options in the AOA match this year. For comparisons sake, there were over 60 two years ago.
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So I had plans to apply solely to AOA programs because I felt that I would be a much more competitive applicant, given that my COMLEX was pretty strong (at least safely above average) but my USMLE was below average. I figured getting into EM is tough enough, so I might as well go where I have the best chance. But now with this possibility of there being so few programs in the AOA match, I feel like that is a dangerous way to go. I now am thinking I should just keep pursuing programs that were at least historically AOA, since they will be familiar with COMLEX, and just participate in both matches. But is that a waste of effort/will programs fully in the ACGME match look at me negatively if I have no plans of opting out of the AOA match? I wonder because I know one of the auditions I have set up recently got accredited and is planning to switch fully to the ACGME match and I am not sure if I should even keep it.

Sorry for the lengthy, rambling post! I could definitely use some advice or thoughts on the topic. Please help! I feel like its hard to get advice on this so no class has really had to deal with this issue before.
 
DesertOsteopath5 said:
So I had plans to apply solely to AOA programs because I felt that I would be a much more competitive applicant, given that my COMLEX was pretty strong (at least safely above average) but my USMLE was below average. I figured getting into EM is tough enough, so I might as well go where I have the best chance. But now with this possibility of there being so few programs in the AOA match, I feel like that is a dangerous way to go. I now am thinking I should just keep pursuing programs that were at least historically AOA, since they will be familiar with COMLEX, and just participate in both matches. But is that a waste of effort/will programs fully in the ACGME match look at me negatively if I have no plans of opting out of the AOA match? I wonder because I know one of the auditions I have set up recently got accredited and is planning to switch fully to the ACGME match and I am not sure if I should even keep it.

Sorry for the lengthy, rambling post! I could definitely use some advice or thoughts on the topic. Please help! I feel like its hard to get advice on this so no class has really had to deal with this issue before.
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I am in the same boat. I decided to schedule some auditions at formerly AOA programs, hoping they will still prefer DO applicants and value my COMLEX score. Nearly every AOA program I was interested in has initial accreditation now. It's a tough spot.
 
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I definitely think it's a huge mistake to go all out AOA and ignore ACGME this year and beyond. There are 22 solely AOA programs left. Many of those applied and got rejected for ACGME approval on the first go around. There are now over 30 former AOA programs that got accreditted. That's a large number of new ACGME programs that are going to be very DO friendly. I think its a huge mistake to ignore that.

I can tell you, being from a program that was one of the first to switch over, we had many students playing both sides of the aisle and doing both matches. We didn't hold it against them, we made our rank list based on how we wanted people, not whether they would be taken off the list by the AOA match or not.

I'm not saying to skip the AOA match altogether. If there are some programs you love in the AOA match and you think you'll get the best training there, rank them. But if you are doing it out of fear, especially if you have 10-12 ACGME interviews, I think people are making a mistake.
 
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I personally can't wait till the 2 match system is dead and gone. We interviewed 90% DOs in our first year in the ACGME match and had many highly ranked candidates get taken off the board by the AOA match. Many of the students that rotated with us did not enter the ACGME match. Thats a ton of resources from a programs standpoint to put in without having the chance to match these students.

I understand why DO students go that route. Fear of not matching is a big factor. But programs don't want to spend an tons of time and resources on students rotating and interviewing, only to find out the students aren't even doing your match. This year we had to be much more selective in who we let rotate for this reason, trying to predict who would actually be sticking around for the ACGME match. And I'm sure we'll be more selective with our interviews as well for this reason. It's unfortunate, and hopefully will be something that isn't an issue in 2 years when we FINALLY have a combined match (hopefully).
 
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gamerEMdoc said:
I definitely think it's a huge mistake to go all out AOA and ignore ACGME this year and beyond. There are 22 solely AOA programs left. Many of those applied and got rejected for ACGME approval on the first go around. There are now over 30 former AOA programs that got accreditted. That's a large number of new ACGME programs that are going to be very DO friendly. I think its a huge mistake to ignore that.

I can tell you, being from a program that was one of the first to switch over, we had many students playing both sides of the aisle and doing both matches. We didn't hold it against them, we made our rank list based on how we wanted people, not whether they would be taken off the list by the AOA match or not.

I'm not saying to skip the AOA match altogether. If there are some programs you love in the AOA match and you think you'll get the best training there, rank them. But if you are doing it out of fear, especially if you have 10-12 ACGME interviews, I think people are making a mistake.
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Since your program is ahead of the game and has been through the whole AOA to ACGME conversion process, do you know why a program that applied for ACGME would get rejected?
 
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emergencywv said:
Since your program is ahead of the game and has been through the whole AOA to ACGME conversion process, do you know why a program that applied for ACGME would get rejected?
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There's tons of reasons, but they all boil down to one point, because they don't meet the minimum ACGME requirements. Maybe they don't have enough qualified faculty, a qualified PD, maybe their curriculum doesn't meet the minimum requirements for peds exposure, maybe their volume doesn't support their number of residents, etc. There's tons of requirements that need to be met to get accreditted. Programs that applied and had a site visit and didn't get approved just didn't meet the basic standards, and have to go back to the drawing board after they get feedback from the ACGME about what they need to fix in order to get approved.

After pre-accredidation (filling out the application), programs do get a ton of feedback to clarify things and things that would need to change in order to meet standards ahead of their site visit. So for little things like "you need another month of peds in your curriculum", etc. That "low hanging fruit" easy to fix stuff should be ironed out before the site visit even occurs. So I'd imagine most of the programs that got rejected their first time around had things that are much harder to fix. Staffing is usually one of them. You need a certain ratio of core faculty to residents, and those core faculty have to meet certain criteria to be core faculty that includes publications and scholarly activity. You can't just hire people off the street. I'm sure that's a big hang up for many programs.
 
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gamerEMdoc said:
I personally can't wait till the 2 match system is dead and gone. We interviewed 90% DOs in our first year in the ACGME match and had many highly ranked candidates get taken off the board by the AOA match. Many of the students that rotated with us did not enter the ACGME match. Thats a ton of resources from a programs standpoint to put in without having the chance to match these students.

I understand why DO students go that route. Fear of not matching is a big factor. But programs don't want to spend an tons of time and resources on students rotating and interviewing, only to find out the students aren't even doing your match. This year we had to be much more selective in who we let rotate for this reason, trying to predict who would actually be sticking around for the ACGME match. And I'm sure we'll be more selective with our interviews as well for this reason. It's unfortunate, and hopefully will be something that isn't an issue in 2 years when we FINALLY have a combined match (hopefully).
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What are some things you look for when selecting students who are more likely to stick around for the ACGME match? I'm interested in several recently transitioned programs and have no intention of applying through the AOA match as my COMLEX level 1 is relatively lower in comparison to my STEP 1 score. With that in mind, do you think these programs that are more versed in COMLEX interpretation will pay more attention to my COMLEX, thus decreasing my perceived competitiveness? Or would the moderately higher STEP 1 score trump a lower COMLEX? Thanks again for all of your help. I know a lot of us on here appreciate your willingness to act as an advisor for this process (both directly and indirectly)!
 
AlgernonMed said:
What are some things you look for when selecting students who are more likely to stick around for the ACGME match? I'm interested in several recently transitioned programs and have no intention of applying through the AOA match as my COMLEX level 1 is relatively lower in comparison to my STEP 1 score. With that in mind, do you think these programs that are more versed in COMLEX interpretation will pay more attention to my COMLEX, thus decreasing my perceived competitiveness? Or would the moderately higher STEP 1 score trump a lower COMLEX? Thanks again for all of your help. I know a lot of us on here appreciate your willingness to act as an advisor for this process (both directly and indirectly)!
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I can only tell you my own opinions obviously. I think that when I see a student with low comlex scores, who didn't take the USMLE exam, and has most if not all of their rotations at AOA programs, then there is almost no chance that student is planning on the ACGME match. But if I see a student who has rotated at several ACGME sites, who has a high comlex, or maybe not a high COMLEX but still took the USMLE, it signals to me the students is likely at least planning to try to go the ACGME route. It's an imperfect system, no doubt. I can't wait until its all one big match so we don't have to deal with this stuff, on both the student and the programs end.
 
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gamerEMdoc said:
I can only tell you my own opinions obviously. I think that when I see a student with low comlex scores, who didn't take the USMLE exam, and has most if not all of their rotations at AOA programs, then there is almost no chance that student is planning on the ACGME match. But if I see a student who has rotated at several ACGME sites, who has a high comlex, or maybe not a high COMLEX but still took the USMLE, it signals to me the students is likely at least planning to try to go the ACGME route. It's an imperfect system, no doubt. I can't wait until its all one big match so we don't have to deal with this stuff, on both the student and the programs end.
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Thank you!


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gamerEMdoc said:
So I'd imagine most of the programs that got rejected their first time around had things that are much harder to fix. Staffing is usually one of them. You need a certain ratio of core faculty to residents, and those core faculty have to meet certain criteria to be core faculty that includes publications and scholarly activity. You can't just hire people off the street. I'm sure that's a big hang up for many programs.
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I know one of the bigger AOA programs that got continued preaccreditation was concerned about the staffing requirement, especially since the ACGME rules has a maximum weekly hour cap for attendings that they were going to find it difficult to work around.
 
Siggy said:
I know one of the bigger AOA programs that got continued preaccreditation was concerned about the staffing requirement, especially since the ACGME rules has a maximum weekly hour cap for attendings that they were going to find it difficult to work around.
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Yep. There has to be one faculty for every three residents. And faculty are supposed to not work clinically more than an average of 28 hours per week.

The work hours isn't a complete dealbreaker. There's a lot of places that have staffing issues from time to time, And as long as there is a plan to hire more people and programs are making progress on staffing, usually this is more of just a citation and not a reason for losing accredition.
 
gamerEMdoc said:
The work hours isn't a complete dealbreaker. There's a lot of places that have staffing issues from time to time, And as long as there is a plan to hire more people and programs are making progress on staffing, usually this is more of just a citation and not a reason for losing accredition.
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That's interesting then... makes me wonder why a 100k+ visit/year hospital failed accreditation on the first review.
 
Siggy said:
That's interesting then... makes me wonder why a 100k+ visit/year hospital failed accreditation on the first review.
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Not sure which program you are referring to. But I can tell you another big hangup is the 3 vs 4. A bunch of the AOA programs may be hesitant to change from 4 to 3 for several reasons. But you need to justify why you are adding a fourth year. You can't have a fourth year just because you don't want to change or because you think residents are better off doing 4. You need to show why doing a fourth year at your institution provides value.
 
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gamerEMdoc said:
Not sure which program you are referring to. But I can tell you another big hangup is the 3 vs 4. A bunch of the AOA programs may be hesitant to change from 4 to 3 for several reasons. But you need to justify why you are adding a fourth year. You can't have a fourth year just because you don't want to change or because you think residents are better off doing 4. You need to show why doing a fourth year at your institution provides value.
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Is there a list or way to know which programs are moving from 4 to 3 years?
 
gamerEMdoc said:
Not sure which program you are referring to. But I can tell you another big hangup is the 3 vs 4. A bunch of the AOA programs may be hesitant to change from 4 to 3 for several reasons. But you need to justify why you are adding a fourth year. You can't have a fourth year just because you don't want to change or because you think residents are better off doing 4. You need to show why doing a fourth year at your institution provides value.
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But....OMM?
 
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Avalanche19 said:
Is there a list or way to know which programs are moving from 4 to 3 years?
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Places I know based on asking at conference in November 2016:
  • Mclaren Oakland - Pontiac, MI - Moving to 3 year
  • Lakeland - St. Joseph, MI - Staying 4 year (*edited)
  • St. Elizabeth Boardman - Boardman, OH - Moving to 3 year
  • Coney Island - Brooklyn, NY - staying 4 year
 
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TheMountainsAreCalling10 said:
Places I know based on asking at conference in November 2016:
  • Mclaren Oakland - Pontiac, MI - Moving to 3 year
  • Lakeland - St. Joseph, MI - Moving to 3 year
  • St. Elizabeth Boardman - Boardman, OH - Moving to 3 year
  • Coney Island - Brooklyn, NY - staying 4 year
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When I interviewed at Lakeland in December 2016, the PD was pretty adamant that they will remain 4 years, so you might need to check in with them
 
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TheMountainsAreCalling10 said:
Places I know based on asking at conference in November 2016:
  • Mclaren Oakland - Pontiac, MI - Moving to 3 year
  • Lakeland - St. Joseph, MI - Moving to 3 year
  • St. Elizabeth Boardman - Boardman, OH - Moving to 3 year
  • Coney Island - Brooklyn, NY - staying 4 year
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I emailed the program director at Lakeland directly a few months ago and he told me they will be remaining a 4 year program.
 
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LovesBikes said:
When I interviewed at Lakeland in December 2016, the PD was pretty adamant that they will remain 4 years, so you might need to check in with them
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Tri4thlete said:
I emailed the program director at Lakeland directly a few months ago and he told me they will be remaining a 4 year program.
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I stand corrected. Thank you for the clarification.
 
I think a lot of previously AOA programs are going to change their tune about remaining 4 years once they've experienced a couple years of a single match and realize how much it hurts their competitiveness. Plus as already mentioned there is a lot of pressure from the RRC to to justify the 4th year--most of the remaining ACGME 4-year programs are brand-name research-heavy programs.
 
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K31 said:
I think a lot of previously AOA programs are going to change their tune about remaining 4 years once they've experienced a couple years of a single match and realize how much it hurts their competitiveness. Plus as already mentioned there is a lot of pressure from the RRC to to justify the 4th year--most of the remaining ACGME 4-year programs are brand-name research-heavy programs.
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I think that as EM becomes more competitive overall as a specialty that these programs will have no problem filling with competitive applicants...maybe not as competitive as their three-year counterparts, but competitive nonetheless. For me, I would gladly accept the fourth year if it meant that I could match, and I am sure there are hundreds who feel the same.


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Sorry if this has been asked before (I searched) but I'm planning my 4th year schedule and wondering which specific month I should take off to allow for interviews. As of now I'm thinking 12/18 - 1/12. Does that seem like the time where I'll (hopefully) have most of my interviews?
 
TheMountainsAreCalling10 said:
Sorry if this has been asked before (I searched) but I'm planning my 4th year schedule and wondering which specific month I should take off to allow for interviews. As of now I'm thinking 12/18 - 1/12. Does that seem like the time where I'll (hopefully) have most of my interviews?
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November through early January is going to be the best time, but the exact dates you picked out might leave out a week or two of eligibility because a lot of programs don't interview right over the holiday.
 
gamerEMdoc said:
November through early January is going to be the best time, but the exact dates you picked out might leave out a week or two of eligibility because a lot of programs don't interview right over the holiday.
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Hmmm.. very true. My only other options are all of December (12/6- 1/1, still including holiday dates) or all January. Having a late audition in November makes things tricky.
 
You are only going to be able to probably knock out one the two interviews a week anyway. So no matter what month you take off, you probably are going to have to interview the other months. Most away rotations understand this and will give you some flexibility in your schedule to accommodate.
 
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gamerEMdoc said:
You are only going to be able to probably knock out one the two interviews a week anyway. So no matter what month you take off, you probably are going to have to interview the other months. Most away rotations understand this and will give you some flexibility in your schedule to accommodate.
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Thank you for your insight, it's much appreciated.
 
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Any idea if programs that have received ACGME accreditation will still be participating in the AOA match next year?
 
Anyone know any useful info on Norman regional, st Mary mercy, freeman hospital?


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Dannyboy676 said:
Anyone know any useful info on Norman regional, st Mary mercy, freeman hospital?


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I don't know how useful this is depending on your interests. The PD and most of the faculty came out of the Integris SW EM Program in OKC (which is supposed to be a great program). The PD is a big EMS/Disaster/tactical medicine guy. I'm waiting to hear back from them now about a rotation. There's not much intel out there that I could find about Freeman other than that there is limited housing for rotating students.
 
CajunMedic said:
I don't know how useful this is depending on your interests. The PD and most of the faculty came out of the Integris SW EM Program in OKC (which is supposed to be a great program). The PD is a big EMS/Disaster/tactical medicine guy. I'm waiting to hear back from them now about a rotation. There's not much intel out there that I could find about Freeman other than that there is limited housing for rotating students.
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Seems like I'll get along great with the PD of Norman.
I got waitlisted for housing at Freeman and then got in at a cancellation. I think it's like six spots for housing. Norman didn't even have any student housing.
I'm in a weird way hoping I like OKC. Will be a good break from living in NYC for six years.


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congrats all that graduated or will graduate soon!
 
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Dannyboy676 said:
Seems like I'll get along great with the PD of Norman.
I got waitlisted for housing at Freeman and then got in at a cancellation. I think it's like six spots for housing. Norman didn't even have any student housing.
I'm in a weird way hoping I like OKC. Will be a good break from living in NYC for six years.


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My only negative are norman is it's TeamHealth ran. With all the $ they have it should have been accredited long ago.


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I got my NPI but not my license yet. What do I do with my NPI besides feel cool?!


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I am looking for some advice…

First time posting on SDN, so please forgive me if this is not the right thread for this.

I think I really screwed up my odds of matching into EM.

My wife and I are both new OMS-IVs looking to couples match together, she in Family Med and myself in EM. Her dream residency just happened to be allopathic, so for the last few months I focused all my effort on getting allopathic audition rotations, in the hopes that if I could just land one or two I could really shine and have a shot at matching to a less competitive allopathic EM program near(ish) to her dream residency.

I now recognize this was foolish as my COMLEX, grades, class rank and everything else about me is extremely average and I did not take the USMLE. Unsurprisingly I haven’t gotten any offers to audition at any allopathic EM programs.

Last week I finally was able to see the writing on the wall and frantically began applying for auditions at AOA and AOA/ACGME programs. So far I have heard back from about 10 programs and been put on the wait list at most of them.

Does anyone know my approximate odds of getting an audition this late in the game? I was offered a few for December, but I am pretty sure those would be way too late to matter. When would be the latest I could do an audition that would matter for either the AOA or ACGME matches?

I don’t want to give up on EM, it’s my dream career, but I want to be realistic.
 
Some places interview into January. As far as odds it's impossible to put a number on it.
 
EMwannabe1313 said:
I am looking for some advice…

First time posting on SDN, so please forgive me if this is not the right thread for this.

I think I really screwed up my odds of matching into EM.

My wife and I are both new OMS-IVs looking to couples match together, she in Family Med and myself in EM. Her dream residency just happened to be allopathic, so for the last few months I focused all my effort on getting allopathic audition rotations, in the hopes that if I could just land one or two I could really shine and have a shot at matching to a less competitive allopathic EM program near(ish) to her dream residency.

I now recognize this was foolish as my COMLEX, grades, class rank and everything else about me is extremely average and I did not take the USMLE. Unsurprisingly I haven’t gotten any offers to audition at any allopathic EM programs.

Last week I finally was able to see the writing on the wall and frantically began applying for auditions at AOA and AOA/ACGME programs. So far I have heard back from about 10 programs and been put on the wait list at most of them.

Does anyone know my approximate odds of getting an audition this late in the game? I was offered a few for December, but I am pretty sure those would be way too late to matter. When would be the latest I could do an audition that would matter for either the AOA or ACGME matches?

I don’t want to give up on EM, it’s my dream career, but I want to be realistic.
Click to expand...


Have you tried these? Open Spots for Away Rotations
 
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