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Do the ACGME institutions call student about rank lists? I thought that was an AOA specific thing?
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Osteopathic EM programs
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Some programs do, some dont. i
I'd imagine some do, and some don't. Honestly I don't know how many fall on what end of that decision. The Match rules are very strict, so programs can tell you they think highly of you, but cant ask your opinion of them. Same can be said for the student, they can volunteer info but no solicit.
So ethically these calls, if received should be brief "we thought highly of you and would be happy to match you here, let me know if you have any last questions" conversations. I think saying anything more would be a slippery slope.
I'd imagine some do, and some don't. Honestly I don't know how many fall on what end of that decision. The Match rules are very strict, so programs can tell you they think highly of you, but cant ask your opinion of them. Same can be said for the student, they can volunteer info but no solicit.
So ethically these calls, if received should be brief "we thought highly of you and would be happy to match you here, let me know if you have any last questions" conversations. I think saying anything more would be a slippery slope.
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A friend of mine directly asked the PD where she would be ranked, and they told her almost an exact number.
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Well, then she violated the rules and regulations of the match and could have her eligibilty to match revoked if reported. Neither party can ask the other how they will rank, but both can freely volunteer the info. DO NOT EVER do this. If you ask a program where they will rank you, you absolutely can be reported and lose your eligibilty, which would basically ruin your career before it starts. Now, on the otherhand, most people probably wont report you, but why even take that chance.
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I've been getting a bunch of questions about the merger, and if newly accreditted programs will be able to still match in the AOA next year (short answer: no, unless they stay 4 years, which most are not). I've been answering this question a bunch privately for people, and explaining what the match will likely look like in my opinion next year. I'm going to post it here as well that way any students that haven't contacted me and are still confused by the situation get some clarification. Once again, this is my opinion, so take that for what its worth. See below:
Most of the AOA programs that got accredited by the ACGME did so as 3 year programs. Not all. Some stayed 4 years, and therefore can still match in the AOA match until that match goes away (Doctors in one example). But most who got initial accreditation, and many that are planning on switching later this year, did so or will be doing so under a 3 year curriculum. That means they can only match in the ACGME match, since the AOA doesn't accredit 3 year programs.
To further confuse things, these newly accreditted 3 year ACGME programs are listed as dually accreditted by the AOA, even though they can't participate in the AOA match. This is because the AOA still does accredit them, since they still have residents in their original four year curriculum. But any new resident matching in will start in the ACGME 3 year curriculum, hence why they can't participate in the AOA match.
Why did this happen? Well, EM is unique. Unlike most residencies, there is a difference in length in AOA and ACGME training standards. 90% of ACGME EM programs are 3 years. To be a 4 year program in the ACGME, you have to have SIGNIFICANT justification for adding a 4th year (usually research); 4 year programs tend to be in big university settings in the ACGME. Community EM programs in the ACGME that are 4 years don't match well. Most candidates have no interest in doing a fourth year, and stear clear of such programs unless they really want to go to a name program like Johns Hopkins or Penn. So AOA programs basically had to go to 3 years when they applied for accredidation. Most couldn't justify the 4th year. And to do so would be suicide in the match in a few years anyways. Compound that with the numbers game for smaller programs. ACGME mandates 6 residents a year. If you are a smaller AOA program with 4 per year, to take 6 per year and stay 4 years would mean expanding your residency from 16 to 24 residents. But if the same residency switched to a 3 year program at 6 per year, they'd only need to expand from 16 to 18 residents. So for multiple reasons, the majority of AOA residents getting accreditted by the ACGME are doing so as 3 year programs, even though that decision eliminates them from the AOA match. While it would be great to still participate in the AOA match, that only exists for 2 more years, and fewer students are going that direction anyways as more and more programs switch over. So the short term benefit of still getting to do the AOA match is dwarfed by all the benefits of switching to 3 years under the ACGME.
What does this mean for next year? Well it means that number of programs actually eligible in the AOA match for EM are dwindling. There were over 60 two years ago. There are 40 some programs this year in the AOA match. There is a windfall of programs seeking accreditation this spring, which will likely put that number next year down to 20-30. Maybe less. Also, programs that choose not to seek accreditation are no longer allowed to participate in the AOA match (since their residencies will have to close doors in 2020). Which means the smaller AOA residencies who have no plans to transition over can't participate in the AOA match either next year. The combination of these two things make the AOA match a less than viable plan for 2018, at least in my opinion. I'm not saying to close the door on participating in the AOA match, I could be wrong, but I don't think I will be, and I think students planning solely on the AOA match might be in big trouble if they find out at the last second there are very few programs to actually apply to for EM.
That being said, it doesn't mean you need to take the USMLE. Or do all your 4th year rotations at ACGME programs. You can still proceed as planned, but do so with plans to at least consider the ACGME match, because you may have to even if you don't want to depending on how many programs are left in the AOA next year. Make sure you get 2 SLOEs next year. SLOEs are important in the AOA match, but you can still get interviews without them. Without SLOEs, you'll almost certainly fail at securing a decent number of interviews in the ACGME match. If it turns out that there are still 30-40 programs left in the AOA match next year, then by all means, explore that opportunity if you want. But I'd be SHOCKED if that was the case by this time next year.
Hope that helps everyone!
Most of the AOA programs that got accredited by the ACGME did so as 3 year programs. Not all. Some stayed 4 years, and therefore can still match in the AOA match until that match goes away (Doctors in one example). But most who got initial accreditation, and many that are planning on switching later this year, did so or will be doing so under a 3 year curriculum. That means they can only match in the ACGME match, since the AOA doesn't accredit 3 year programs.
To further confuse things, these newly accreditted 3 year ACGME programs are listed as dually accreditted by the AOA, even though they can't participate in the AOA match. This is because the AOA still does accredit them, since they still have residents in their original four year curriculum. But any new resident matching in will start in the ACGME 3 year curriculum, hence why they can't participate in the AOA match.
Why did this happen? Well, EM is unique. Unlike most residencies, there is a difference in length in AOA and ACGME training standards. 90% of ACGME EM programs are 3 years. To be a 4 year program in the ACGME, you have to have SIGNIFICANT justification for adding a 4th year (usually research); 4 year programs tend to be in big university settings in the ACGME. Community EM programs in the ACGME that are 4 years don't match well. Most candidates have no interest in doing a fourth year, and stear clear of such programs unless they really want to go to a name program like Johns Hopkins or Penn. So AOA programs basically had to go to 3 years when they applied for accredidation. Most couldn't justify the 4th year. And to do so would be suicide in the match in a few years anyways. Compound that with the numbers game for smaller programs. ACGME mandates 6 residents a year. If you are a smaller AOA program with 4 per year, to take 6 per year and stay 4 years would mean expanding your residency from 16 to 24 residents. But if the same residency switched to a 3 year program at 6 per year, they'd only need to expand from 16 to 18 residents. So for multiple reasons, the majority of AOA residents getting accreditted by the ACGME are doing so as 3 year programs, even though that decision eliminates them from the AOA match. While it would be great to still participate in the AOA match, that only exists for 2 more years, and fewer students are going that direction anyways as more and more programs switch over. So the short term benefit of still getting to do the AOA match is dwarfed by all the benefits of switching to 3 years under the ACGME.
What does this mean for next year? Well it means that number of programs actually eligible in the AOA match for EM are dwindling. There were over 60 two years ago. There are 40 some programs this year in the AOA match. There is a windfall of programs seeking accreditation this spring, which will likely put that number next year down to 20-30. Maybe less. Also, programs that choose not to seek accreditation are no longer allowed to participate in the AOA match (since their residencies will have to close doors in 2020). Which means the smaller AOA residencies who have no plans to transition over can't participate in the AOA match either next year. The combination of these two things make the AOA match a less than viable plan for 2018, at least in my opinion. I'm not saying to close the door on participating in the AOA match, I could be wrong, but I don't think I will be, and I think students planning solely on the AOA match might be in big trouble if they find out at the last second there are very few programs to actually apply to for EM.
That being said, it doesn't mean you need to take the USMLE. Or do all your 4th year rotations at ACGME programs. You can still proceed as planned, but do so with plans to at least consider the ACGME match, because you may have to even if you don't want to depending on how many programs are left in the AOA next year. Make sure you get 2 SLOEs next year. SLOEs are important in the AOA match, but you can still get interviews without them. Without SLOEs, you'll almost certainly fail at securing a decent number of interviews in the ACGME match. If it turns out that there are still 30-40 programs left in the AOA match next year, then by all means, explore that opportunity if you want. But I'd be SHOCKED if that was the case by this time next year.
Hope that helps everyone!
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Although not needed, just sent an SDN Thank You Amazon Gift Card to @gamerEMdoc for that post up there. Thanks for your help in this "interesting" time.
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How awesome is this! In the future, a simple thank you will do, but this was a great surprise!
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Can you clarify this? On the interview trail, I have encountered a few programs that are historically AOA, got their ACGME accreditation, chose to become 3 years, but are participating in the AOA match. How are they doing that?
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I'm pretty sure he means for the next match 2018, how if they commit to going 3 years, the next cycle will be through ACGME match. I could be wrong.
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My understanding is, the AOA granted an exception for programs that got accredited earlier this year to continue to participate in the AOA match this year since it occurred the same academic year. In the next match in 2018, those programs will not be eligible to participate in the AOA match. Then again, I suppose the AOA could change their rules again. I mean, they have to be getting freaked out about the number of programs they have left in their match. That's why I assume they granted the exceptions this year in the first place.
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Man I thought this **** was complicated when I was trying to match. Feel sorry for all you guys trapped in the transition right now
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Thank you!!!
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Lehigh just sent an email to everyone that interviewed, I haven't heard of anything personalized.
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Just a quick word of advice, which I think has been echoed here before, but a good reminder:
1. If a program contacts you, you are under no obligation to tell them anything about your rank preferences. If they pressure you to do so, you can report their program and they can lose their ability to participate in the match.
2. If you try and pressure a program for details, they can report you as well, ending your match eligibility and ruining your career before it starts
3. Either side can freely admit anything they want as long as there is no soliciting from the other side
4 . If you hear from a program, no matter what they tell you, it doesn't guarantee they are ranking you at the top of their list. And they may not be lying. The top of the list may be 10-30 people given how many slots they have and spots they interviewed. So if you are ranked 25 in a place that ranks 100, you are pretty high. That doesn't mean you are guaranteed to match there. So never, ever, ever make the mistake of only ranking a few programs because you got good feedback. Rank as many programs that you could see yourself going to. If you'd rather go to a program than scramble, I'd probably rank that program. If you'd rather scramble into FP than go to a program, then don't rank that program.
5. If you don't hear from anyone, or only a few places, don't freak out. Some places may call everyone on their list, some may call a few, and some may call none. Whether you get calls or not, its not going to mean you will or will not match in EM.
6. If you get no calls, remember, most people in the middle of many programs rank list match some where. Most programs don't match the majority of their candidates in the top 1/3 of their list. So again, if programs call the top tier of their list, that still leaves the middle of the list where most programs still match many of their candidates.
And lastly... you only have to do this once. Take a deep breath. And remember, next job interview, people will be flying you there and wining an dining you and begging you to sign a six figure contract. It will all be over soon, and worrying won't make any difference. Put your cards on the table and go all in. Its all you can do. Good luck!
1. If a program contacts you, you are under no obligation to tell them anything about your rank preferences. If they pressure you to do so, you can report their program and they can lose their ability to participate in the match.
2. If you try and pressure a program for details, they can report you as well, ending your match eligibility and ruining your career before it starts
3. Either side can freely admit anything they want as long as there is no soliciting from the other side
4 . If you hear from a program, no matter what they tell you, it doesn't guarantee they are ranking you at the top of their list. And they may not be lying. The top of the list may be 10-30 people given how many slots they have and spots they interviewed. So if you are ranked 25 in a place that ranks 100, you are pretty high. That doesn't mean you are guaranteed to match there. So never, ever, ever make the mistake of only ranking a few programs because you got good feedback. Rank as many programs that you could see yourself going to. If you'd rather go to a program than scramble, I'd probably rank that program. If you'd rather scramble into FP than go to a program, then don't rank that program.
5. If you don't hear from anyone, or only a few places, don't freak out. Some places may call everyone on their list, some may call a few, and some may call none. Whether you get calls or not, its not going to mean you will or will not match in EM.
6. If you get no calls, remember, most people in the middle of many programs rank list match some where. Most programs don't match the majority of their candidates in the top 1/3 of their list. So again, if programs call the top tier of their list, that still leaves the middle of the list where most programs still match many of their candidates.
And lastly... you only have to do this once. Take a deep breath. And remember, next job interview, people will be flying you there and wining an dining you and begging you to sign a six figure contract. It will all be over soon, and worrying won't make any difference. Put your cards on the table and go all in. Its all you can do. Good luck!
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Is that true of the ACGME match? That most programs go to about the middle of their rank list?
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I mean I don't have any data to back it up, I doubt that data can be found anywhere, but yeah, Id imagine thats true for most programs except for maybe the elite ones. Its just a statistics thing. The people in your top 20 are also on alot of other programs top 20. You aren't going to match 10 of those people, or at least most years you won't. Its just not that likley. There was a running discussion about this from the CORD listserv about "middle 1/3" SLOEs this past year, and how that shouldn't be viewed negatively, because truly, the "middle 1/3" of everyones match list is the sweet spot of where most programs match their candidates. If everyone matched out of the top 1/3 of their list, why would anyone go to the trouble of interviewing like 100 people?
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Agree with the sentiment; but what's a "GC" award? GameChampion?
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Haha! I mean, I am a world class gamer, but gutonc meant gift card. They surprised with me an amazon gift card the other day. Awesome community we got here!
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Gift Card.
Dude, are you like 87yo? The number of abbreviations, memes and pop culture references that go over your head are staggering for someone who spends as much time on the interwebs as you do.
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Uhh, we give out gift cards for awesome posts? If that's the case, where is MY goddamned gift card !? Huh, mister mod?
You have a point. We must not run in the same web circles.
I am 34 years old. I don't actually spend all that much time on the interwebs. I'm looking at my bookmarks toolbar now.
E-mail. Connect to work. ScheduleSite. OtherScheduleSite. PubMED. EmCRIT. EM:LoN. MDCalc. SDN. Bank. CNN. FOXNews. NHL. MLB. LocalSportsSite. HockeyFanSite. GoogleMaps. YouTube. UltimateGuitar. RoshReview.
That's 99% of my web traffic, right there.
You have a point. We must not run in the same web circles.
I am 34 years old. I don't actually spend all that much time on the interwebs. I'm looking at my bookmarks toolbar now.
E-mail. Connect to work. ScheduleSite. OtherScheduleSite. PubMED. EmCRIT. EM:LoN. MDCalc. SDN. Bank. CNN. FOXNews. NHL. MLB. LocalSportsSite. HockeyFanSite. GoogleMaps. YouTube. UltimateGuitar. RoshReview.
That's 99% of my web traffic, right there.
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You left out redtube
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Should I be offended if I interviewed but haven't heard anything back?
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Yes.. and tell them how offended you are in a very nasty letter.
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You should not. Not every program makes phone calls. The ones that do usually only call their top 15-20ish candidates.
Typically speaking the top 15-20 candidates will be every other programs top 15-20 candidates. Therefore many/most that match each program will not have received phone calls.
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I withdrew from the AOA match and will just be doing the ACGME one. I got one of those "you are highly ranked" emails, so should I contact them and tell them that I have withdrawn? I figured they checked that kind of stuff....
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Thats totally up to you. You don't have to. The programs will know when you are no longer available to rank when they submit their list. If you rotated somewhere and you wanted to thank them and still let them know just because you like them, that's great, but you are under no obligation to contact them.
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May I direct you to points 5 and 6 above:
5. If you don't hear from anyone, or only a few places, don't freak out. Some places may call everyone on their list, some may call a few, and some may call none. Whether you get calls or not, its not going to mean you will or will not match in EM.
6. If you get no calls, remember, most people in the middle of many programs rank list match some where. Most programs don't match the majority of their candidates in the top 1/3 of their list. So again, if programs call the top tier of their list, that still leaves the middle of the list where most programs still match many of their candidates.
: )
Best of luck!
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9. McLaren Macomb (but super vague, just said they ranked me, didn't say 1 or 100).
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Hey guys,
I just wanted some opinions regarding two programs, is there anyone that interviewed AND rotated at Botsford and Arnot Ogden? What did you think of their programs? How are the attendings/procedures/volumes/resources?
Would love to hear more opinions, especially on Arnot.
I just wanted some opinions regarding two programs, is there anyone that interviewed AND rotated at Botsford and Arnot Ogden? What did you think of their programs? How are the attendings/procedures/volumes/resources?
Would love to hear more opinions, especially on Arnot.
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10. Doctors Columbus
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So did a handful of other programs. check the list: https://apps.acgme.org/ads/Public/Reports/ReportRun?ReportId=18&CurrentYear=2016&SpecialtyId=10
goodluck.. list due in less than 48 hours
goodluck.. list due in less than 48 hours
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Good luck everyone!
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8 days! https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20170206T10&p0=64&msg=The+DO+Match&font=cursive
Hopefully all this excitement is not in vain.
Hopefully all this excitement is not in vain.
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This is the reason I don't read allopathic threads...
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/matching-into-emed-with-low-step-scores.1238523/
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/matching-into-emed-with-low-step-scores.1238523/
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Hey guys, OMS3 here . Can anyone comment on their audition experiences at Port St. Lucie, FL? and DRMC in Palm Springs? Thank you!
I'm a current 3rd yr looking to apply to EM next yr. For those of you who have received AOA EM interviews this year, when was the latest slot that you did your audition to get SLOES since AOA opens around 7/15? So far I have 2 EM electives scheduled for Aug and Sept, and still trying to find one for July. Thanks!
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I did Aug and Sept
D
deleted480308
May the odds be ever in your favor
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Good luck tomorrow everyone! And for those going the ACGME route, only one more month to go!
