Osteopathic EM programs

[mkhuc]

Might be some tough news, but although there maybe cancellations at this point, I'd say >90% of interviews have been given.

For OMSIII lurkers on this thread: I would consider applying to as many programs you can--I'm talking like >60 applications. I knew people applying to 100+. It can be expensive, but if EM is what you really want to do, you have to be on the right side of the numbers game.

Don't limit yourself by location for the initial application. When you start getting interviews, that's when you should prioritize choosing which location you want to focus on. This way you'd might still have back-ups from random places elsewhere.

From my cohort of the 2016 Match--I found a safe number of it interviews to be >9. I knew many who where sitting on 4-7 that ended up scrambling into fm/im.

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[gamerEMdoc]

There are always cancellations. I assure you.

Cancellation season has begun, hopefully that means people can get a few more interviews. Had two cancellations this week and none of the wait listed people could fill on short notice. This drives me nuts. I understand people cancelling interviews, lord knows I cancelled a ton of them, but give other students a chance and cancel them as far out as possible, not a week before. There's alot of students out there dying for a few more interviews, if you know your gonna cancel, please do it as far in advance as possible.

 

[Dr.Jekyll75]

New to the thread and I have a question. What is the likely ness of all EM residency spots will be in the ACGME match by 2019 ? ive looked around for this and cant quiet find an answer

 

[gamerEMdoc]

July 2020 is the final merger where the AOA will no longer accredit. If programs arent switched over by 2019, I doubt they are making the transition. Honestly, I dont see there being many AOA programs left 2 years from now, itll probably be slim pickings by next year if the number of programs planning to switch over get accredited. The moral of the story is, don't bank on the AOA match after this year. If there is still a decent number of programs left next year or the following, then that's an added bonus, but I wouldn't plan on there being many quality programs left in 1-2 years.


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[Buckeye1992]

Is there a list of Osteopathic EM programs that will give sloes somewhere? I have started signing up for auditions for the fall and want to go to places that will write a sloe.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

The bigger DO programs do (Lehigh, Doctors, Aria, etc). They are all dually accredited. The problem is many of the other programs that were writing sloes were also the programs that had their stuff together enough to get ACGME accredited and are now or will soon be 3 year ACGME programs.

It never hurts to just ask the programs are looking into rotating at. A quick email to the program coordinator will get you an easy answer to this question.


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[Dr.Jekyll75]

I wonder how many of these programs will prefer to take in Dos over Mds . Considering that there is a MD bias and a handful of MD programs


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[gamerEMdoc]

Who knows. We interviewed 90% DOs for our ACGME program this year, our first in the ACGME match. We were well known by DOs as a former AOA program so thats where the interest was. I doubt that will change anytime soon.


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[txny1]

ok in all honesty, what the heck is going on with some of these programs? they have about 20 days left to apply for pre-accreditation. why bother interviewing us if you weren't going to make the cut to begin with? ridiculous for stringing us all along... as if we poor med students have money to spare to travel. 23 days to be exact or 552 hours but hey who's counting?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I dont know why anyone would even apply to a program thats not preaccreditted. You have to meet ZERO ACGME standards and dont even have to intend to actually get accredited in the long run. All you have to do is fill out the form.

To me this is a HUGE red flag if a program at this point hadn't been working on this.


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[Brahventus]

What programs do I have a shot at or even able to audition at with a COMLEX of 480?

 

[This Guy]

What programs do I have a shot at or even able to audition at with a COMLEX of 480?

Rock level 2 and you may have a bunch

 

[txny1]

I dont know why anyone would even apply to a program thats not preaccreditted. You have to meet ZERO ACGME standards and dont even have to intend to actually get accredited in the long run. All you have to do is fill out the form.

To me this is a HUGE red flag if a program at this point hadn't been working on this.


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Well when applicants "applied" back in June/July, IIRC more than 80% of programs had not applied for even pre-accreditation. Ever since then it's just been the waiting game and hoping for them to apply.. so it's not fair to say "why would anyone even apply to a program that's not pre-accredited". Even now only 20 days away from the deadline, only about 50% of programs (31 programs to be exact out of the 61 listed on osteopathic opportunities page and ACGME site) are "pre-accredited" or "initial accreditation".

Obviously we won't be able to rank these (nor will we want to) come December 31 when we are supposed to be notified by ACGME/AOA of which programs that can participate in the match. However, I do 10000% agree with you... the programs that are turning in their applications last minute, I am personally weary of placing any of my eggs in their baskets.

 

[Brahventus]

Rock level 2 and you may have a bunch

But what about my current comlex?


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[racerwad]

But what about my current comlex?


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Unfortunately, it does you no favors and will screen you out of many programs. You must take Level 2 and do better. Or, take the Step series, do better, and apply only ACGME.

 

[Brahventus]

Unfortunately, it does you no favors and will screen you out of many programs. You must take Level 2 and do better. Or, take the Step series, do better, and apply only ACGME.

I know it's on the low end and will limit the programs but I want to know if it's even worth applying to the lower tier programs.


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[racerwad]

I know it's on the low end and will limit the programs but I want to know if it's even worth applying to the lower tier programs.


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I'm not sure what you're asking. You're the one applying so you're the one that decides if it's even worth it. The advice the other poster gave you was the best available: take Level 2 and do well and you'll likely be fine. Is there something wrong with that approach? Unfortunately, there is no right answer for every given situation.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Well when applicants "applied" back in June/July, IIRC more than 80% of programs had not applied for even pre-accreditation. Ever since then it's just been the waiting game and hoping for them to apply.. so it's not fair to say "why would anyone even apply to a program that's not pre-accredited". Even now only 20 days away from the deadline, only about 50% of programs (31 programs to be exact out of the 61 listed on osteopathic opportunities page and ACGME site) are "pre-accredited" or "initial accreditation".

Obviously we won't be able to rank these (nor will we want to) come December 31 when we are supposed to be notified by ACGME/AOA of which programs that can participate in the match. However, I do 10000% agree with you... the programs that are turning in their applications last minute, I am personally weary of placing any of my eggs in their baskets.

Wasnt aware how few had even applied yet. My goodness, 50% STILL havent completed the application when the match is just months away!?! Thats.... insane. Thanks for the stats!


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[MADNEMO]

I know this thread is specific towards AOA programs but I have a question regarding applying to ACGME programs as a DO student. I plan on applying to mostly ACGME programs and I have a 225 USMLE Step 1 score. I know I am above the cutoff for most programs but im also not super competitive. Is a USMLE Step 2 score going to help if I manage to do ok on it. Or is it unnecessary at this point unless I am able to get a really competitive score. Thanks for any feedback!

 

[Al2O3]

What programs do I have a shot at or even able to audition at with a COMLEX of 480?

Programs with a 500 cutoff: Botsford, Kent, Kingman, Elmira, Doctors..

Some places students could audition but weren't guaranteed an interview. If you're interested in any program, try contacting the coordinator in regards to auditioning. I have a similar score, and my level 2 mid 500's. I applied broadly, did 4 auditions, and had 8 interviews. It's not the end of the world. I would suggest doing your first two auditions at more competitive programs and get strong SLOE's. Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I know this thread is specific towards AOA programs but I have a question regarding applying to ACGME programs as a DO student. I plan on applying to mostly ACGME programs and I have a 225 USMLE Step 1 score. I know I am above the cutoff for most programs but im also not super competitive. Is a USMLE Step 2 score going to help if I manage to do ok on it. Or is it unnecessary at this point unless I am able to get a really competitive score. Thanks for any feedback!

Unfortunately, noone knows the answer to this. As far as I know there is no published data looking at the success rate of DOs matching ACGME when taking zero, one, or two exams. It'd make a great study to control by comlex score and look at the 3 groups.

My personal belief is, taking the USMLE probably makes a big difference if you are applying to a bigger name University based program, and very little difference if you are applying to community EM programs.


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[MADNEMO]

Unfortunately, noone knows the answer to this. As far as I know there is no published data looking at the success rate of DOs matching ACGME when taking zero, one, or two exams. It'd make a great study to control by comlex score and look at the 3 groups.

My personal belief is, taking the USMLE probably makes a big difference if you are applying to a bigger name University based program, and very little difference if you are applying to community EM programs.


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Ya, it falls into a gray area that ACGME programs aren't interested in studying and the AOA would never study (because they would never admit to the fact that students take the USMLE to get a competitive advantage). We pretty much have to rely on anecdotal evidence. I was excited when the NRMP released charting outcomes for osteopathic students matching to ACGME programs, but then disappointed that they only reported on osteopathic students who matched with only COMLEX scores so of course the scores are out of proportion to what the USMLE scores would be. Hopefully someday they will be motivated to look into this and save us from spending a lot of time and money on multiple exams. But its worth it if it helps me match. Thank you for your feedback!

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Ya, it falls into a gray area that ACGME programs aren't interested in studying and the AOA would never study (because they would never admit to the fact that students take the USMLE to get a competitive advantage). We pretty much have to rely on anecdotal evidence. I was excited when the NRMP released charting outcomes for osteopathic students matching to ACGME programs, but then disappointed that they only reported on osteopathic students who matched with only COMLEX scores so of course the scores are out of proportion to what the USMLE scores would be. Hopefully someday they will be motivated to look into this and save us from spending a lot of time and money on multiple exams. But its worth it if it helps me match. Thank you for your feedback!

I'd do the study if I knew how to get the data. I already asked a researcher I know if he knew how/where to get the info from.

 

[Brahventus]

So after emailing some programs for potential auditions in 2017, most of them say they don't have affiliation with my school. Is this a common problem?


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[GimpGenius]

So after emailing some programs for potential auditions in 2017, most of them say they don't have affiliation with my school. Is this a common problem?

It's not uncommon. You'll have to work with admin to get affiliation agreements set up, most likely. This can be a giant PITA, so if you're serious about rotating at certain sites, get the ball rolling ASAP. Remember that your school moves at the speed of government most of the time.

Also don't be surprised if agreements don't pan out for one reason or another. There's a lot of back-end regarding malpractice (levels of insurance coverage vary from state to state, for example), what your school's comfortable with, etc.

But seriously... start the process now. It can take a while for the agreement, and you may not be able to schedule the rotation until the agreement is formalized.

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

Rock level 2 and you may have a bunch

417 on Level 1, 543 on Level 2 = 12 EM interviews

 

[jw3600]

Ya, it falls into a gray area that ACGME programs aren't interested in studying and the AOA would never study (because they would never admit to the fact that students take the USMLE to get a competitive advantage). We pretty much have to rely on anecdotal evidence. I was excited when the NRMP released charting outcomes for osteopathic students matching to ACGME programs, but then disappointed that they only reported on osteopathic students who matched with only COMLEX scores so of course the scores are out of proportion to what the USMLE scores would be. Hopefully someday they will be motivated to look into this and save us from spending a lot of time and money on multiple exams. But its worth it if it helps me match. Thank you for your feedback!

I thought it was all the DOs matching ACGME. It's just they didn't REPORT the (I assume) associated USMLE that most of the applicants had. Did you read otherwise?

 

[tux4]

Wasnt aware how few had even applied yet. My goodness, 50% STILL havent completed the application when the match is just months away!?! Thats.... insane. Thanks for the stats!


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I would call programs you are interested in for the most up to date information. Many of them on the website have applied and are waiting on site visits or even passed the site visit already even though it says otherwise on the website. I have seen that at a couple of programs I interviewed at.


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[Sinfest]

I would call programs you are interested in for the most up to date information. Many of them on the website have applied and are waiting on site visits or even passed the site visit already even though it says otherwise on the website. I have seen that at a couple of programs I interviewed at.


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Here's the most up-to-date info: https://apps.acgme.org/ads/Public/Reports/ReportRun?ReportId=18&CurrentYear=2016&SpecialtyId=10

 

[Syncope1116]

I'm confused. Can we still rank and match into programs that are not pre-accredited? I thought AOA programs could not participate in this year's match without submitting the initial application.

 

[05091116]

Arrowhead - Colton, CA
ProMedica Monroe - Monroe, MI
Southeastern Health - Lumberton, NC
Inspira Health Network Program - Vineland, NJ
St Barnabas - Bronx, NY
Doctors Hospital - Columbus, OH
St. Vincents - Erie, PA
Arnot Health- Elmira, NY
Lakeland Health- St Joseph, MI
Adena Health Systems - Chillicothe, OH
St. Mary's- Livonia, MI
Ohio Valley- Wheeling, WV
Aria - Philadelphia, PA
Kent Hospital - Warwick, RI
St. John - Westlake, OH
MWU/CCOM - Chicago, IL
McLaren Oakland - Pontiac, MI
Memorial Hospital - York, PA
Orange Regional - Middletown, NY
Rowan Kennedy - Stratford, NJ
Mercy Health - Muskegon, MI
Beaumont-Farmington (Formerly Botsford) - Farmington Hills, Mi
Einstein - Philadelphia, PA
Good Samaritan - West Islip, NY
Beaumont Oakwood - Trenton, MI
UH Regional Hospital - Richmond Heights, OH
Cape Fear Valley - Fayetteville, NC
Henry Ford Wyandotte - Wyandotte, MI


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Jumping on here super late.......anyone have thoughts on Orange Regional vs. Good Samaritan in NY? also what time did interview go until at ORMC

 

[tux4]

Jumping on here super late.......anyone have thoughts on Orange Regional vs. Good Samaritan in NY? also what time did interview go until at ORMC

Sure. Orange is brand new so there are still a lot of kinks to work out. Good Sam (GS) has a reputation and their grads have gone to good places. The patients that goto orange are sick and there is no shortage of procedures/intubations. Not sure how it compares to GS. The people at orange seemed ehh though and didn't get a good vibe compared to all programs I interviewed at. Also the other residents from other services and academics are weak at Orang and there is no sim. The location of both are a ways from NYC but GS is in suffolk county and it kinda sucks out there. If you don't care about location GS is definitely a stronger pick IMO.

Interview day at orange ended around 1230 for me.


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[gamerEMdoc]

I'm confused. Can we still rank and match into programs that are not pre-accredited? I thought AOA programs could not participate in this year's match without submitting the initial application.

That was my understanding. In order to participate in the 2017 match, a 4 year program must be preaccreditted, so as to still be in existance during the last year of the residency (2020) when the merger deadline occurs (assuming they actually do get accredited). This is meant to protect students from matching in a program that maybe has no intent in seeking acgme accreditation. Obviously, no one wants to match at a program that closes down just before their fourth year.

This obviously doesn't fully protect people. Pre-accreditation just means you filed the form showing intent to gain accreditation, it doesn't mean you've met any of the acgme standards. I'm sure there will be programs that get pre-accredited but never obtain initial accreditation, and therefore have to shut down in 2020. Hopefully, this will be a minimal number.


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[mdny]

so something that might be a hot topic for this upcoming match: most of you probably already know but a lot of these programs are going to transition to the 3-year program. you guys can add on to the list but from the ones I've heard/interviewed at:

3 YEAR
- Desert Regional Medical Center (CA)
- Orange Regional Medical Center (NY)
- Rowan/Kennedy University Hospital (NJ)
- Garden City Hospital (MI)
- Inspira Medical Center (NJ)

4 YEAR
- Arrowhead Regional Medical Center (CA)
- Good Samaritan Hospital (NY)
- St. Barnabas Hospital (NY)
- Coney Island Hospital (NY)
- Beaumont Trenton/Oakwood (MI)
- Albert Einstein Medical Center (PA)
- Aria Health (PA)
- University Hospitals (OH)

 

[gamerEMdoc]

To add to the list, Kingman in Arizona intends to be a 3 year program once they gain accreditation.


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[NYEMMED]

Jumping on here super late.......anyone have thoughts on Orange Regional vs. Good Samaritan in NY? also what time did interview go until at ORMC

I think Good Samaritan is a great choice. The area has many sick patients, with no competing residencies in house there are many procedures. (Most of the interns are signed off with most procedures by the end of their first year). Also they have a great reputation and have been around for 11 years. The area is suburban (many people like that) if you want the city it's a 1 hour train ride or a 35-40 min drive with no traffic. I've never heard of a EM program at Orange.

 

[txny1]

To add to the list, Kingman in Arizona intends to be a 3 year program once they gain accreditation.

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Not to open a can of beans... But what is your opinion on the the 3 vs 4 year for EM?
I know most answers always started with, "well, depends on what you wanna do later in EM.." but generally speaking, does that one extra year matter?

Thanks!

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Not to open a can of beans... But what is your opinion on the the 3 vs 4 year for EM?
I know most answers always started with, "well, depends on what you wanna do later in EM.." but generally speaking, does that one extra year matter?

Thanks!

Nope. It doesnt matter. I did a three year program, and I remember talking to residents in their fourth year at another program who were not thrilled they chose that route. I cant imagine back then what it would have felt like staying for a fourth year. Most residents felt ready after 2 and were independently moonlighting in year 3.

I mean, its like a 300k loss and you are a low paid attending level doc for a year as a fourth year. Totally not worth it if you are strictly looking at it as "will I be ready".

I will grant you, having trained four year residents as a former aoa program, of course four year residents probably leave residency more experienced than 3 year residents. But after a few months on the job as an attending, noone would be able to tell. And for people who moonlight in their third year, I would argue the difference is likely negligible.

All things considered, a four year residency is just a bad financial decision. Yes you will be more experienced for a few months when you first get out, but you'll be hundreds of thousands of dollars poorer than the person who graduated in 3 years. The trade off is just not worth it from a financial standpoint.

That being said, not everyone cares about the money. Four year programs do offer you more flexibility with electives, and in the ACGME world, tend to be a big-name places with significant resources for research. If that's important to you, then maybe it's worth it. But I would venture to say that that is less than 5% of people that want to match in emergency medicine.

 

[mdny]

anybody start to hear from programs regarding ROL? or is this a dead thing now? lol

 

[This Guy]

anybody start to hear from programs regarding ROL? or is this a dead thing now? lol

Yeah, I've heard people are starting to get notices

 

[dragonfly239]

_____

 

[NYEMMED]

Hey you guys, what have you heard of Inspira so far? Are they going to be approved this January? Seem like I can not find any info on them

Not sure where in the process they are. If they were already inspected then they may find out this January at the RRC meeting. If they were not inspected already then it will either be the May or September RRC meetings after they are inspected.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I'm starting to get a few messages from EM interested 3rd years about how to navigate the match given the merger and how to plan ahead for the 4th year. Just wanted to quickly state that if there is anyone out there without an advisor that needs help navigating this crazy system, please don't hesitate to contact me. I think most of the fourth years are on auto-pilot at this point now that interviewing season is about to end, so it should be time for third years to start asking for advice.

 

[This Guy]

I'm starting to get a few messages from EM interested 3rd years about how to navigate the match given the merger and how to plan ahead for the 4th year. Just wanted to quickly state that if there is anyone out there without an advisor that needs help navigating this crazy system, please don't hesitate to contact me. I think most of the fourth years are on auto-pilot at this point now that interviewing season is about to end, so it should be time for third years to start asking for advice.

GamerEMdoc, thanks for being open and available to us in this transitional period!

 

[gamerEMdoc]

GamerEMdoc, thanks for being open and available to us in this transitional period!

Anytime! When I was in med school (allopathic big university based place), there were unlimited advisors no matter what you wanted to go into. You picked the field, walked down the hall to the department, and had 20 academic faculty to pick from. Having worked at an AOA residency before we switched over to ACGME, one that still is predominantly DO in its makeup and the students that rotate here, I've realized that many if not most of the osteopathic students interested in EM don't have any opportunity like I had when it comes to advising and mentoring. Sure they talk to residents or ED docs they work with, but many don't have a solid adviser they can go to when it comes to getting honest and constructive career advice. So I do this. Its quite rewarding to help students to navigate the match, the merger, choosing a residency, etc. I helped a ton of students this year, and hopefully next year its even more. I honestly don't care if I get 500 students asking me advice. The more the merrier.

Happy New Year all!

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

Happy new year everyone! Hope interviews are all done! Just the match left :/


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[gilly45]

Yeah, I've heard people are starting to get notices

Which programs have people heard from about rol?

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

none here

 

[ladybug1552]

None on my end either


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[gamerEMdoc]

I doubt any ACGME places have started calling. AOA should be soon. Rank lists are due Jan 20th, so many programs are solidifying their lists around this time. Usually interview up to the holidays, take a few weeks off, and come back and solidify the list with the residents, faculty, etc. So I'd expect people will start hearing from AOA programs next week if I had to guess.

From an ACGME standpoint, many are still interviewing through January.