Without research your app will be less competitive at research heavy programs (HSS, UCSF, Harvard, Mayo, Rush). The best way to find out where students from your school are competitive is to talk to older students, residents and advisers at your school.
ortho chances
- Thread starter DMZ
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Without research your app will be less competitive at research heavy programs (HSS, UCSF, Harvard, Mayo, Rush). The best way to find out where students from your school are competitive is to talk to older students, residents and advisers at your school.
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This is such a popular feed, and so many people are asking about their chances, and a few people do write replies with their thoughts. I wonder what the result would be, if someone were to study the advice given and compare the success of those who are reassured and those who are cautioned. My bet is that the 'chart biopsy' approach to predicting match success is not very predictive. Rather than respond to one or another, I'm going to give some general opinions and advice for what it is or isn't worth.
First, please don't rely on advice online alone, from me or anyone. The people most likely to help you are the orthopaedics residents and faculty at your medical school. If you are an MS3 and don't know anyone in your orthopaedics department well enough to ask them about your application, that in itself is a problem. How do you know you want to join the field, if you have no mentors? If you haven't gotten to know someone by spending time in their clinic and OR? Quickly, name three or four orthopaedics residents at your program who you think would support your application. If you can't, that is a problem. Orthopaedics is a small field, and I made a bunch of calls over five years to residents at other institutions giving my recommendation (or, occasionally, otherwise) for medical students I had gotten to know. My own application to the three places I was most interested in were all directly helped by phone calls from residents I had gotten to know, and at each place faculty and residents commented on hearing about me before the away rotation or interview. In return I received several calls from friends (within and beyond orthopaedics ) at other institutions, to keep an eye out for an amazing medical student who was headed our way - this sort of networking and vouching for people led far more directly to residency spots than worrying about 2 vs 3 published abstracts. Also: if you get some solid but constructive advice, don't discount it or get defensive. Not taking criticism well is a RED FLAG in a medical student, because no one wants a junior resident who has such a liability.
Second, you really should rock Step 1. What exactly that score is year to year varies, but Step 1 scores are within your control to a large degree. It is a beatable test. The two biggest ways that program directors cut applicants is clearly by geography and Step 1 score. You can't control where you were raised and probably weren't thinking about the impact of your medical school location on where you'd be competitive for residency, so that is hard to change... a lot harder than doing whatever it takes to crush Step 1.
Third, if you really want to do orthopaedic surgery, you should know it, and know it with good reason and be able to articulate that quickly and convincingly. Know the field, its history, its current struggles, and have thoughts on where it is going. It is fine to be humble in the face of the field since you aren't yet a part of it, but nothing unsettles me about someone faster than realizing they had no idea what orthopaedics was, came from, or might be going. Well, except dishonesty - see below.
Your grades, scores, research, and geography help you get interviews - along with away rotations. After that, it is about your letters of recommendation and how you do on interviews. Do grades matter? I think they do, if your school has grades. But not just surgery and medicine. In residency there will be rotations you like, and rotations you don't. What the faculty cares about is whether you will work hard and take good care of patients regardless of your interest. That's why I wouldn't recommend taking it easy during psychiatry, or obgyn, or really anything else. You should do as well as you can on all rotations. And even if your school is pass/fail, you receive comments at the end of each rotation. Those comments end up in Dean's Letters. Some of the most compelling support for medical students I've seen have come from non-ortho, even non-surgical rotations. Comments about your commitment to patients, how nurses/patients/families seem to respect and like you, and how you work well on the team --- all those matter, a lot. Does research matter? Sure, probably at some programs more than others. Some faculty on interviews will love you for your research. And everyone would recommend getting that box checked, fine. But everyone wants you to be a good physician. So if you aren't doing an away rotation somewhere, you need to demonstrate that you are a good, kind, caring physician that they should trust with shared patients. And that isn't really orthopaedics specific - it's just that orthopaedics is at this moment in time more competitive than most other fields.
PD's cull the field with numbers and geography, aided in part by performance on away rotations. But I think PD's and departments rank people they can trust with patient care and the knife. To that end, being truthful about success and failure, challenges and things forgotten is paramount. Even a hint of dishonesty was enough to eliminate an away rotator or interviewee from consideration when I was a resident. Understandably so.
So I can't comment much on whether that set of numbers or this set of numbers makes someone competitive. A poor Step 1 score keeps you out of orthopaedics, which is an unfortunate truth - thankfully a good Step 1 score is far from enough to get you in. And once that first day of your away rotation or interview starts, your numbers matter a lot less than your character. My suspicion is that the horror stories about amazing-sounding applicants not matching anywhere probably have their answer somewhere in my un-requested opinions above.
First, please don't rely on advice online alone, from me or anyone. The people most likely to help you are the orthopaedics residents and faculty at your medical school. If you are an MS3 and don't know anyone in your orthopaedics department well enough to ask them about your application, that in itself is a problem. How do you know you want to join the field, if you have no mentors? If you haven't gotten to know someone by spending time in their clinic and OR? Quickly, name three or four orthopaedics residents at your program who you think would support your application. If you can't, that is a problem. Orthopaedics is a small field, and I made a bunch of calls over five years to residents at other institutions giving my recommendation (or, occasionally, otherwise) for medical students I had gotten to know. My own application to the three places I was most interested in were all directly helped by phone calls from residents I had gotten to know, and at each place faculty and residents commented on hearing about me before the away rotation or interview. In return I received several calls from friends (within and beyond orthopaedics ) at other institutions, to keep an eye out for an amazing medical student who was headed our way - this sort of networking and vouching for people led far more directly to residency spots than worrying about 2 vs 3 published abstracts. Also: if you get some solid but constructive advice, don't discount it or get defensive. Not taking criticism well is a RED FLAG in a medical student, because no one wants a junior resident who has such a liability.
Second, you really should rock Step 1. What exactly that score is year to year varies, but Step 1 scores are within your control to a large degree. It is a beatable test. The two biggest ways that program directors cut applicants is clearly by geography and Step 1 score. You can't control where you were raised and probably weren't thinking about the impact of your medical school location on where you'd be competitive for residency, so that is hard to change... a lot harder than doing whatever it takes to crush Step 1.
Third, if you really want to do orthopaedic surgery, you should know it, and know it with good reason and be able to articulate that quickly and convincingly. Know the field, its history, its current struggles, and have thoughts on where it is going. It is fine to be humble in the face of the field since you aren't yet a part of it, but nothing unsettles me about someone faster than realizing they had no idea what orthopaedics was, came from, or might be going. Well, except dishonesty - see below.
Your grades, scores, research, and geography help you get interviews - along with away rotations. After that, it is about your letters of recommendation and how you do on interviews. Do grades matter? I think they do, if your school has grades. But not just surgery and medicine. In residency there will be rotations you like, and rotations you don't. What the faculty cares about is whether you will work hard and take good care of patients regardless of your interest. That's why I wouldn't recommend taking it easy during psychiatry, or obgyn, or really anything else. You should do as well as you can on all rotations. And even if your school is pass/fail, you receive comments at the end of each rotation. Those comments end up in Dean's Letters. Some of the most compelling support for medical students I've seen have come from non-ortho, even non-surgical rotations. Comments about your commitment to patients, how nurses/patients/families seem to respect and like you, and how you work well on the team --- all those matter, a lot. Does research matter? Sure, probably at some programs more than others. Some faculty on interviews will love you for your research. And everyone would recommend getting that box checked, fine. But everyone wants you to be a good physician. So if you aren't doing an away rotation somewhere, you need to demonstrate that you are a good, kind, caring physician that they should trust with shared patients. And that isn't really orthopaedics specific - it's just that orthopaedics is at this moment in time more competitive than most other fields.
PD's cull the field with numbers and geography, aided in part by performance on away rotations. But I think PD's and departments rank people they can trust with patient care and the knife. To that end, being truthful about success and failure, challenges and things forgotten is paramount. Even a hint of dishonesty was enough to eliminate an away rotator or interviewee from consideration when I was a resident. Understandably so.
So I can't comment much on whether that set of numbers or this set of numbers makes someone competitive. A poor Step 1 score keeps you out of orthopaedics, which is an unfortunate truth - thankfully a good Step 1 score is far from enough to get you in. And once that first day of your away rotation or interview starts, your numbers matter a lot less than your character. My suspicion is that the horror stories about amazing-sounding applicants not matching anywhere probably have their answer somewhere in my un-requested opinions above.
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current MS3 here.
Step 1 was 237
Research-wise 10 papers with 1 first author paper. won't talk about submitted stuff because they are nothing until published.
Rotations: passed ob/gyn, neuro; HP: peds so far. Haven't done other stuff yet.
My question is... What are some programs with cutoff's that I cannot make?
Step 1 was 237
Research-wise 10 papers with 1 first author paper. won't talk about submitted stuff because they are nothing until published.
Rotations: passed ob/gyn, neuro; HP: peds so far. Haven't done other stuff yet.
My question is... What are some programs with cutoff's that I cannot make?
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Can't provide any concrete answers (so you can probably stop reading here) but I had numerous programs tell me that this year was the highest cutoff they have ever had for Step 1 screening. It does vary, program to program, though. Best thing you can do is what you've probably already been told- make excellent grades, rock Step 2, and build strong relationships that lead to stellar letters. I have met other applicants from better schools with less numbers/grades but a lot of views because of their research profile, especially at places where that stuff matters (Iowa, Vandy, etc.). There is hope.
How much do research years help?
Step 1 was >260, but I feel like for this upcoming cycle that won't be as special as it was a few years ago.
I'll probably honor 5-6/7 rotations by the end of third year.
I have some research experience, but nothing extremely notable and no publications. If I even smell the possibility of doing a case writeup during my home Sub-I I'll do it, but my home program is on the smaller side and not research oriented so I don't know that the opportunity will present itself.
At the moment, the plan for aways is to apply for 1 reach and 2 mid tier locations. In general all 3 have a good reputation though, and I couldn't say that either of the 2 mid-tier spots would be considered a safety.
I'm wondering if what people have seen on the interview trail this last year correlates to the increased competitiveness it seems is present online or if I'm just paranoid and reading to much into the selection bias that's present on SDN and orthogate. I was relatively confident last year, but now that it's time to make an actual decision.. not so much.
Step 1 was >260, but I feel like for this upcoming cycle that won't be as special as it was a few years ago.
I'll probably honor 5-6/7 rotations by the end of third year.
I have some research experience, but nothing extremely notable and no publications. If I even smell the possibility of doing a case writeup during my home Sub-I I'll do it, but my home program is on the smaller side and not research oriented so I don't know that the opportunity will present itself.
At the moment, the plan for aways is to apply for 1 reach and 2 mid tier locations. In general all 3 have a good reputation though, and I couldn't say that either of the 2 mid-tier spots would be considered a safety.
I'm wondering if what people have seen on the interview trail this last year correlates to the increased competitiveness it seems is present online or if I'm just paranoid and reading to much into the selection bias that's present on SDN and orthogate. I was relatively confident last year, but now that it's time to make an actual decision.. not so much.
I am a current 4th year that matched this year with scores in the low 250s and mostly HP grades with minimal research. It does seem like it has gotten more competitive but with your scores and grades I don't think a research year will help you a ton. If you are a normal guy that isn't weird or annoying and work hard on your aways you should have a good chance at making it.
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Current MS3 wondering what kind of shot I stand.
Non top 40 allopathic medical school northeast, has a home Ortho program
Pre-Clinical: Pass in a P/F curriculum.
Step1:246
Clinical Grades: Mostly Honors, HP in Surgery, and Medicine pending.
Step 2 CK: April 2016
Research:
-1 abstract presentation at local conference Non-Ortho, manuscript submitted and pending
-1 abstract and podium presentation at national AMA medical education conference (Non-Ortho) will have a potential publication
-Ortho related Abstract submitted and presented at my schools research day
-Other Ortho projects in the works hoping to get more abstracts and presentations submitted. Possible publication later on.
ECs: Pretty varied volunteering and leadership experiences. Not terribly concerned with this portion.
Not looking for anything top tier, what do you guys think?
Non top 40 allopathic medical school northeast, has a home Ortho program
Pre-Clinical: Pass in a P/F curriculum.
Step1:246
Clinical Grades: Mostly Honors, HP in Surgery, and Medicine pending.
Step 2 CK: April 2016
Research:
-1 abstract presentation at local conference Non-Ortho, manuscript submitted and pending
-1 abstract and podium presentation at national AMA medical education conference (Non-Ortho) will have a potential publication
-Ortho related Abstract submitted and presented at my schools research day
-Other Ortho projects in the works hoping to get more abstracts and presentations submitted. Possible publication later on.
ECs: Pretty varied volunteering and leadership experiences. Not terribly concerned with this portion.
Not looking for anything top tier, what do you guys think?
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I would probably disagree with the above poster. First of all, yes, this past year was insanely competitive, not necessarily that a ton more people applied (I actually believe there were fewer total applicants than 2015), but the people that are applying are stacked and everyone is applying to 70+ programs, so every program is getting flooded with amazing applications they have to sift through. Also, you're right -- while a 260 isn't average quite yet, I fully expect the average step 1 to be around 250 this year if they do a new charting the outcomes.
Second. I think it all matters on where you want to go for residency. If you don't really care much about location or going to a tip-top program, then yes, don't do a research year; however, if you're gunning for the top I think a research year could help you quite a bit. Do you know about the status of AOA, and if you have the chance at it? With a 260, a productive research year, AOA, and solid letters/away rotations you're going to be very competitive for every program in the country.
There's no junior AOA, only senior AOA. I'm not really gunning for the top at all. I just want to be at a good program, so hopefully that's still possible.
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Asking for a friend:
Meh medical school
Honors preclinical
Step 1 = 245
3rd year: pass: family, HP: surgery, Honor: everything else, Honor in home ortho elective
Ortho-related research in undergrad, non-ortho related research in med school pending publication, plastination of ortho specimen
EC: Officer in ortho/surgery club, AMSA
He is especially looking at Michigan programs. Thanks
Meh medical school
Honors preclinical
Step 1 = 245
3rd year: pass: family, HP: surgery, Honor: everything else, Honor in home ortho elective
Ortho-related research in undergrad, non-ortho related research in med school pending publication, plastination of ortho specimen
EC: Officer in ortho/surgery club, AMSA
He is especially looking at Michigan programs. Thanks
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Chances for AOA? Any chance he can get involved in an ortho project ASAP? His application is quite bland to be honest -- not in a bad way, he just doesn't have anything that sticks out. If they were able to get on an ortho project (something to put on ERAS and talk about during interviews), get AOA, and take Step 2 early and CRUSH it, then they would be sitting pretty well.
As far as Michigan programs go, I think Western Michigan would be a good place for him to look at/rotate, also Grand Rapids and maybe Beaumont. UMichigan is pretty tough on their rotators, and I fear his application right now would not make him competitive for their program.
Other close midwest programs to consider -- MCW in Milwaukee, Mt Carmel in Columbus, Minnesota, Allegheny in Pittsburgh would all be reasonable places for them to rotate at.
As far as Michigan programs go, I think Western Michigan would be a good place for him to look at/rotate, also Grand Rapids and maybe Beaumont. UMichigan is pretty tough on their rotators, and I fear his application right now would not make him competitive for their program.
Other close midwest programs to consider -- MCW in Milwaukee, Mt Carmel in Columbus, Minnesota, Allegheny in Pittsburgh would all be reasonable places for them to rotate at.
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Appreciate the feedback. I'm not totally sure about AOA, but could be possible. He's currently lining up some more research and has secured an away in Michigan. So looks like things are trending in that direction.
Hi All,
Wondering what your thoughts on my chances are:
Med School: + home program
Step 1: 245
Step 2: Pending
Clinical grades: Honors in IM, Peds, OBGYN, Fam Med, and Surgery, currently on psych.
AOA: Eligible, but senior AOA only.
Research: 2 first author pubs (gen surg), 2 podium presentations at national conferences, 2 poster presentations. Currently working on ortho research project.
Wondering what your thoughts on my chances are:
Med School: + home program
Step 1: 245
Step 2: Pending
Clinical grades: Honors in IM, Peds, OBGYN, Fam Med, and Surgery, currently on psych.
AOA: Eligible, but senior AOA only.
Research: 2 first author pubs (gen surg), 2 podium presentations at national conferences, 2 poster presentations. Currently working on ortho research project.
Your Step 1 will be slightly below average on the newest charting outcome, everything else is above average and I assume you'll get AOA with those grades. You'll be fine. Crush your aways (do three), get good letters, apply broadly to about 80 programs and you'll be set to match at a solid mid-tier academic program. If you want to gun for top tier research programs, I'd consider doing a research year.
Thanks for the solid advice. I appreciate it.
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Hi all,
I would love some input on my chances at applying for an ortho residency - my stats are:
Top 15 med school
Step 241
Grades: HP: peds, surg, psych; Pass: IM and OBGYN.
Not a lot of research, but a few second authors and a few random mid author posters to my name, not in ortho.
I took a few years off before med school and am in a position where I really do not want to take a research/prelim year. Suffice it to say, the clinical year has not been good to me. That being said, I just want to be an orthopedic surgeon. I don't need or want to be at a top end research place. Given my stats, should I give it a shot? Or should I pack my bags and call it a day? If I do go ahead and apply and it doesn't work out, what are my best options? (ex. scramble, take a year off, etc.) Would appreciate any feedback, especially from anyone who has been in a similar situation.
I would love some input on my chances at applying for an ortho residency - my stats are:
Top 15 med school
Step 241
Grades: HP: peds, surg, psych; Pass: IM and OBGYN.
Not a lot of research, but a few second authors and a few random mid author posters to my name, not in ortho.
I took a few years off before med school and am in a position where I really do not want to take a research/prelim year. Suffice it to say, the clinical year has not been good to me. That being said, I just want to be an orthopedic surgeon. I don't need or want to be at a top end research place. Given my stats, should I give it a shot? Or should I pack my bags and call it a day? If I do go ahead and apply and it doesn't work out, what are my best options? (ex. scramble, take a year off, etc.) Would appreciate any feedback, especially from anyone who has been in a similar situation.
wondering if the content of evals matters a ton to PDs? Say you honor your rotations, but your evals come back along the lines of: good student, hard worker, will make a good physician... do PDs care about that text in the eval and does it significantly influence the application or is the final grade (H/HP/P) really all they care about?
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Honestly I doubt they even read much of it. Never once did any of my clinical grades or comments come up despite being stellar. With ~1300 applicants and given the length of the Dean's Letter, they really pick and choose what they want to read and go with it.
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Agree, they would much rather read what the orthopedic surgeons who wrote your letters have to say than the random OB/Gyn or psychiatrists at your school think. Granted if there are red flags they might read it if it comes down to a few people they're deciding on for an interview or rankings
This year I saw people with your stats match and not match about 50/50. If they did match it was usually to community programs in less than ideal locations, or to a carefully chosen away sub-i that they destroyed. So you have to decide how bad you want to be an orthopaedic surgeon. Is it bad enough to do a year of research to help ensure you match? Is it bad enough to go to a location and program you don't prefer for 5-years? Is it bad enough that you would risk not matching after all the effort and expenses of aways, ERAS apps, and interview travel expenses? Is it bad enough you could dual apply to a backup speciality with the realization that might be your permanent speciality if you fall down your match list (happened to one of my colleagues this year)? Those are the questions you have to ask yourself.
You are the exact type of bubble candidate who would benefit from a year of research and connection building. You could always go for it and hope your top-15 school name bolsters your app, I saw it have a moderate size benefit in this year's match, but school name is still not as good as having a strong Step 1 and superb clinical grades. If you don't do a research year or have connections, I would plan on applying to a backup speciality.
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Disagree with the last part. Where you're from and who has written your letters carries the most weight imo. I'm from a small school with 99% percentile steps; yet, I still struggled with getting many of the academic programs because presumably of where I'm from. Other candidates, while solid but with lesser scores and from name Med schools, racked up views coast to coast. Don't get me wrong; if you've got the steps, you'll get plenty of interviews.
Clinical grades never once came up in my experiences.
I agree with you that LoR's and where you're from is extremely important in Ortho. However, your Step 1/Clinical grades combo is the most important to get interviews, and then from there it is your interview performance that usually determines where you get ranked.
From the 2014 NRMP PD's Survey, 85 Ortho PD's were surveyed -
Impact factors to get views:
1) Step 1
2) LoR's from ortho
3) Honor's in clerkships
4) AOA (usually based on H's)
Impact factors to get ranked:
1) Interview performance w/ faculty, residents and staff
2) LoR's from ortho
3) Step 1
1) Step 1
2) LoR's from ortho
3) Honor's in clerkships
4) AOA (usually based on H's)
Impact factors to get ranked:
1) Interview performance w/ faculty, residents and staff
2) LoR's from ortho
3) Step 1
2014 NRMP Program Director's Survey
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Let's play this game.
Male
Step 1: 254
Step 2: Pending
Clinical grades: Honors in almost everything except ob/gyn.
Top 20% of class
Research: 1 publication; 6 poster presentations; involved in 2 really innovative projects but no pubs yet (think 3D printing, etc. Multiple posters on this project but no pubs yet)
Preference: I don't care; planning on sending app to 60 programs
LORs: Most of them community ortho docs.
I have 2 away rotations scheduled at MD programs in the midwest. 3 other away's scheduled at community programs. Hoping to squeeze a few more letters by September.
CATCH: I go to a "mid-tier" DO school I know this will filter me out of most programs but trying to stay positive, yet realistic. If any new matches have seen DOs on the interview trail, did you know their stats?
I am planning on applying to the all the DO programs as well but will probably only rank the Top programs at my preference locations. At this point, I also want to see how my chances look for MD programs too.
Please be honest. I know I'll be filtered out at most programs but want to know if there are other red flags.
Male
Step 1: 254
Step 2: Pending
Clinical grades: Honors in almost everything except ob/gyn.
Top 20% of class
Research: 1 publication; 6 poster presentations; involved in 2 really innovative projects but no pubs yet (think 3D printing, etc. Multiple posters on this project but no pubs yet)
Preference: I don't care; planning on sending app to 60 programs
LORs: Most of them community ortho docs.
I have 2 away rotations scheduled at MD programs in the midwest. 3 other away's scheduled at community programs. Hoping to squeeze a few more letters by September.
CATCH: I go to a "mid-tier" DO school
I know this will filter me out of most programs but trying to stay positive, yet realistic. If any new matches have seen DOs on the interview trail, did you know their stats?I am planning on applying to the all the DO programs as well but will probably only rank the Top programs at my preference locations. At this point, I also want to see how my chances look for MD programs too.
Please be honest. I know I'll be filtered out at most programs but want to know if there are other red flags.
Last edited:
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What's your backup plan?Let's play this game.
Male
Step 1: 254
Step 2: Pending
Clinical grades: Honors in almost everything except ob/gyn.
Top 20% of class
Research: 1 publication; 6 poster presentations; involved in 2 really innovative projects but no pubs yet (think 3D printing, etc. Multiple posters on this project but no pubs yet)
Preference: I don't care; planning on sending app to 60 programs
LORs: Most of them community ortho docs.
I have 2 away rotations scheduled at MD programs in the midwest. 3 other away's scheduled at community programs. Hoping to squeeze a few more letters by September.
CATCH: I go to a "mid-tier" DO school
I am planning on applying to the all the DO programs as well but will probably only rank the Top programs at my preference locations. At this point, I also want to see how my chances look for MD programs too.
Please be honest. I know I'll be filtered out at most programs but want to know if there are other red flags.
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Let's play this game.
Male
Step 1: 254
Step 2: Pending
Clinical grades: Honors in almost everything except ob/gyn.
Top 20% of class
Research: 1 publication; 6 poster presentations; involved in 2 really innovative projects but no pubs yet (think 3D printing, etc. Multiple posters on this project but no pubs yet)
Preference: I don't care; planning on sending app to 60 programs
LORs: Most of them community ortho docs.
I have 2 away rotations scheduled at MD programs in the midwest. 3 other away's scheduled at community programs. Hoping to squeeze a few more letters by September.
CATCH: I go to a "mid-tier" DO school
I am planning on applying to the all the DO programs as well but will probably only rank the Top programs at my preference locations. At this point, I also want to see how my chances look for MD programs too.
Please be honest. I know I'll be filtered out at most programs but want to know if there are other red flags.
Unless they unify the match this year I really wouldn't risk it. There are already DO programs that have become accredited by the ACGME, I had stats higher than yours and I didn't get much love (research, 260+/270+). I applied to 20 or so programs and while I got a few interviews, I didn't get the sense I was taken too seriously at many of the institutions. At then end of the day, we're too big of an unknown to them. Definitely worth giving it a shot, but I'd really focus on the DO programs at this point. Unless of course you have some sort of connection at an MD program. Assuming your comlex score is in the same league as your USMLE, you have more than good enough scores at DO programs. Just don't be an idiot and you'll get in. Just ask yourself, if you have 5 DO programs all offering you spots, will you turn them down to go through the MD match? It's a fine line between being brave and being reckless, and I certainly didn't have the balls to walk it.
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Research year
I agree totally. I'm applying to DO programs, especially in Michigan which is where I want to live. Michigan has a ton of DO programs and some of the MD programs have a DO or two in them. But, because the MD match happens after the DO match, I just want to cover all my bases in case something happens. My COMLEX isn't as high as my USMLE (think 660-700) which is why I want to try MD too. Sometimes I think the DO ortho programs are a lot more competitive than the MD programs with many of them filling in before the match even happens (Chicago, Broward, Riverside).
Also, dam. That's scary that you didn't get much love with a 260+/270+. You could have easily waltzed into a top program if you were on the other side. But it is what it is. Do you think it will be impossible for DOs within the next 4-6 years post merger? Congrats on matching!
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It's definitely not impossible, I know of people that did it this year. Though 1 of them had connections to the program and the other person I know just applied very very broadly. To me, it wasn't worth the risk or the money, but obviously some others thought differently. But I'd say expect to be at a DO program, then if you get a very positive response from the MD programs you applied to you can go from there. The only way you can find out is through applying to be honest.
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- 18
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Okay. Thank you for your advice. I thought a 250+ on Step 1 would be enough but I guess I was wrong. haha
I really appreciate your help. Your post on the other DO Ortho page was also super helpful.
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Just started MS3
Male
Mid tier MD school
Preclinical: top ~5%
Step 1: 260
Clinical grades: H/P/F system. Kind of subjective. 1x Honors so far. Still have IM and surg
Research: 3 publications in Ortho Onc and soft tissue tumors. Probably ~10 posters/abstract submissions.
- hoping to go to an academic program
- any benefit of a research year
- what should I be looking at in terms of aways
Male
Mid tier MD school
Preclinical: top ~5%
Step 1: 260
Clinical grades: H/P/F system. Kind of subjective. 1x Honors so far. Still have IM and surg
Research: 3 publications in Ortho Onc and soft tissue tumors. Probably ~10 posters/abstract submissions.
- hoping to go to an academic program
- any benefit of a research year
- what should I be looking at in terms of aways
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2011
- Messages
- 368
- Reaction score
- 348
I am not sure a research year would be of great benefit for you. I know people with less impressive apps than yours who matched to solid academic programs. If you want anothing academic place I'd rotate at academic programs. What is your home program like?
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2011
- Messages
- 247
- Reaction score
- 112
Yeah, you're app is way better than mine and I matched very well. As long as you have any social skills (and probably even if you don't) you should match well. Rotate at programs you want to go and work your butt off
Hi everyone, new to SDN. Rising MS3 here with a huge interest in Ortho. Just got my boards scores back and they were horrendous (228). I was posting here to get some advice on how to advance. Is Ortho completely not an option now? Should I focus on something else?
A bit of background info: Top 1/4-1/3 of my class pre-clinical years. Just starting MS3. Would having Honors on all rotations, and scoring high on the Step 2 make a difference? I'd appreciate some advice on how to proceed. Thanks in advance!
A bit of background info: Top 1/4-1/3 of my class pre-clinical years. Just starting MS3. Would having Honors on all rotations, and scoring high on the Step 2 make a difference? I'd appreciate some advice on how to proceed. Thanks in advance!
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2011
- Messages
- 368
- Reaction score
- 348
That would make a difference but how much is uncertain. If I was you I'd meet with my program director or chairman to develop a game plan for the rest of medical school. At the same time I would be looking into other specialties that I might like. My school matched a guy with a 228 ish score and a similar Step 2 a couple of years back because he impressed the hell out of one of his away roations' faculty.
Had a similar step 1 myself. Matching is stressful but doable, you'll have to honor everything, get >250 on step 2 and take it early. Apply to 100+ programs, have research and be prepared to do 4 or 5 aways. Even then you still won't get many interviews and will get screened out at a lot of places but not all. Did 4 aways ended up with 7 interviews. The biggest advice I have is make connections and use them, I matched at a place that is historically very numbers based but I got an interview through a connection and apparently did well enough at it to match.
I don't always check SDN but feel free to PM me
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Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2013
- Messages
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- Reaction score
- 1
Hey all,
Hoping to get any suggestions I can from some anonymous internet people more knowledgeable than me.
Step 1: 247
Mid-tier US MD school, West coast-ish
Currently on my 2nd rotation of 3rd year (IM), only completed Peds so far and not sure if I got Honors (H/P/F system)
Junior AOA possible, but selection not released after my 4th rotation (school doesn't release class rankings)
Research: No publications, 1 ortho poster presented x2 (once at my own school by me, another time at a society meeting by my PI but my name is still on there... Idk if that counts), 1 engineering poster presentation from undergrad (<- Not sure if this is worth anything)
Lots of volunteer and teaching experience in med school.
Bench/dead/squat: 175/315/250
Not aiming for any "top tier" academic programs, but with how competitive ortho is, I'm feeling kinda iffy about my chances for any program at all. I want to get more research experience, but don't know how to manage that during 3rd year rotations. Also met with my home program's chair to ask how to get more involved with the dept, but only advice I got was to rotate with them on my upcoming surgery elective. Currently trying to get myself onto any projects or case reports that come my way, but I'm not opposed to doing a research year if it comes to that. Also working my tail off to do well on rotations and maybe snag some Honors, but its mostly based on subjective evals. And of course, trying to learn as much as I can to make Step 2 a little easier.
Anything else I'm missing or should consider?
Thanks in advance
Hoping to get any suggestions I can from some anonymous internet people more knowledgeable than me.
Step 1: 247
Mid-tier US MD school, West coast-ish
Currently on my 2nd rotation of 3rd year (IM), only completed Peds so far and not sure if I got Honors (H/P/F system)
Junior AOA possible, but selection not released after my 4th rotation (school doesn't release class rankings)
Research: No publications, 1 ortho poster presented x2 (once at my own school by me, another time at a society meeting by my PI but my name is still on there... Idk if that counts), 1 engineering poster presentation from undergrad (<- Not sure if this is worth anything)
Lots of volunteer and teaching experience in med school.
Bench/dead/squat: 175/315/250
Not aiming for any "top tier" academic programs, but with how competitive ortho is, I'm feeling kinda iffy about my chances for any program at all. I want to get more research experience, but don't know how to manage that during 3rd year rotations. Also met with my home program's chair to ask how to get more involved with the dept, but only advice I got was to rotate with them on my upcoming surgery elective. Currently trying to get myself onto any projects or case reports that come my way, but I'm not opposed to doing a research year if it comes to that. Also working my tail off to do well on rotations and maybe snag some Honors, but its mostly based on subjective evals. And of course, trying to learn as much as I can to make Step 2 a little easier.
Anything else I'm missing or should consider?
Thanks in advance
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2015
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- 520
- Reaction score
- 759
What programs are traditionally like this? Is it a geographic thing or more of a prestige thing?
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- Dec 5, 2012
- Messages
- 865
- Reaction score
- 714
It can be random. Some that you would think would be aren't, and some relatively unknown programs and/or undesirable locations are.
Anyone recall whether you should create two different slots for an LoR writer so that they can upload an LoR with/without the universal supplemental eval or are they able to upload two different versions on their own? Heard this was a hassle for people and their writers last year so I want to make this as simple as possible for them now that I have to start asking.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2009
- Messages
- 342
- Reaction score
- 15
Two slots seems to be the simplest method.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2011
- Messages
- 368
- Reaction score
- 348
This was my plan
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2009
- Messages
- 342
- Reaction score
- 15
You can do that and that should be okay, but if you have ANY question about the LOR, then a universal supplemental app can hurt you (at least that's the way it was proposed to me) because most LOR are generically positive even if you didn't do an amazing job.
Starting to freak out and I'd like some opinions from you guys
Medschool USWNR rank top 25
Step 1 235+
Step2 pending
Research: 3 first-author papers + 8 publications + more pending (all in ortho)
3rd year: no honors. HP in surgery and peds.
How screwed am I
Medschool USWNR rank top 25
Step 1 235+
Step2 pending
Research: 3 first-author papers + 8 publications + more pending (all in ortho)
3rd year: no honors. HP in surgery and peds.
How screwed am I
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2013
- Messages
- 2
- Reaction score
- 1
bunp for input?
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2011
- Messages
- 368
- Reaction score
- 348
Honors should be your main focus now, especially is you are serious about that research year. If you haven't used pretest, you should. That series was instrumental to my shelf scores
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2015
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