ortho chances

Q-Optics, surgical ergonomics - redefined
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chucktown said:
Anyone have an idea what the ortho step 1 average is these days?
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Log into AAMC careers in medicine to see the average from 2012-2013, it hasn't changed much (if at all) from 2011 charting outcomes. 250+ is still excellent, 240+ is still solid, and 230+ will still leave you a feeling a bit uneasy during the application cycle but definitely does not exclude you from matching in any way. A few programs are notorious for seeking high number applicants, and that's reflected in their program descriptions in FREIDA.
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Thanks for helping out.

M4 here. Finishing up my first month of ortho. Just got back my Step 2 score: 221. Been dealing with some family problems during my study month, but no excuse.
Other Stats:
Step 1: 237
Step 2: 221
Classs rank: top 50
Research: Some ortho and public health
School: Southeast
Pre-clnical & clinical grades: A's/B's. B in Gen surgery
AOA: Nope

That Step 2 score is a pretty decent blow to my confidence. Still love ortho though. Advice?
 
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Hey sweettea -- here you go --
Love ortho. Pursue ortho. Have backup plan
 
Hey Team,

M3 recently decided to switch from ENT to Ortho, and could use some thoughts
Top-20 school
step 1-256
Clinical grades: honors: psych, neuro
HP: Med, Surg
Pending: Ob/gyn, peds, FM
AOA: Nope
Research: 1st author pub in prominent ENT journal, a third author pub in an interventional radiology journal, couple abstracts/poster, and hopefully another 2 1st author pubs by the time I apply (neither are in ortho).

What do you guys think? Kind of worried about high passes/lack of ortho research. I plan on trying to hop onto an ortho project between now and applications to at least show something, but I doubt with subi's starting in May I'd be able to really publish anything.
 
Your step score should get you some interviews, but a lot of programs are looking for honors in med and surg. Be prepared to do as many aways as possible and work your butt off.

I would just get a project started, honestly just having something to mention when they ask you about your research is good. Usually they don't go any deeper than what is the title and the conclusion. Most people asked me about my only publication which was in nutrition during grad school... it seemed like most interviewers just wanted to know that you are familiar with the research process. You will need a good story of what drew you to ortho, especially with your recent switch. They will ask you this everywhere.
 
Step 1 268
Honors: Peds, Fam med, Rural med
HP: Med, OB/GYN
Pending: surg, neuro, psych
Research: 2 pubs (1 ortho), working on proposal for 3rd

Should honors surg just pending shelf score

Thoughts on how to augment application, when to take step 2?
 
Your application is pretty awesome. You can take Step 2 whenever you want. If you're confident and coming fresh off of clinicals you can take it right away... otherwise you can take it later in the year. It won't matter, with a 268 no one is going to care about the Step 2.

At this point all you can do is rotate at the places you want to go, and be sure to honor the rest of your clinicals. Schools look at more than just your surgery grade.
 
just switched from RADS to ortho
school: not top 40, southeast
Step 1: 252
preclinical Honors: Path
Clinical Honors: Medicine, Surgery
Clinical Pass: Neuro
Research: Poster presented at largest national rads conference, Third author on oral presentation presented at AHA annual meeting, no ortho projects
Chances in general?
Chances of somewhere such as Duke or Iowa?
 
Only thing that jumps out at me is the neuro grade. What's your grading system? Is that clinical pass in neuro the next grade down from Honors (H/P/F)?

Chances in general are decent. You have good Step score, you should get involved in an ortho project that you can talk about at interviews and rotate at places that seem reasonable. 252 at a big name program is nothing special, but if you are a hard worker, people like you, and if you have a good background story you could pull it off to get a rotator interview and regional interviews. Are there many other from your school applying in ortho?
 
And with your med/surgery honors... you are very likely to match, just get good letters
 
Yes, we are on a H/P/F system and I just barely miss the H cutoff. At this point there is about 6 people applying to Ortho. Does the project need to be finished by application season or is it ok if its still ongoing?
 
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It happens, just do everything you can to honors remaining rotations.

Ongoing projects are fine, just something to talk about at interviews. You'll be able to list your non-ortho completed projects on your ERAS, which they will probably ask about because it's different than what everyone else they're interviewing has done.
 
school: ~Top 40 school in midwest
Step 1: 250
Preclinical grades: Mostly HP, some honors, 1-2 passes
Clinical Honors: Medicine, Surgery, Anesthesia, Radiology ( All honors so far, great comments on all rotations)
Research: Global health research project summer between M1-M2 in Vietnam, spent 2 months there, mostly working on injury prevention/public health stuff. Will have a local poster presentation from this. Also involved in an Ortho Hand case report that should be published by application time. Also have a Peds Ortho chart review project that miiiight have an abstract out in time.

Planning on doing 2 aways, hopefully out west (Colorado, Utah, Oregon). Also planning on taking CK July 2nd before 4th year starts. Have done well on shelfs, studying already, expect to do well but if I'm not doing well on PT's leading up to it I'll push it back.

Chances?
 
Diggidy said:
school: ~Top 40 school in midwest
Step 1: 250
Preclinical grades: Mostly HP, some honors, 1-2 passes
Clinical Honors: Medicine, Surgery, Anesthesia, Radiology ( All honors so far, great comments on all rotations)
Research: Global health research project summer between M1-M2 in Vietnam, spent 2 months there, mostly working on injury prevention/public health stuff. Will have a local poster presentation from this. Also involved in an Ortho Hand case report that should be published by application time. Also have a Peds Ortho chart review project that miiiight have an abstract out in time.

Planning on doing 2 aways, hopefully out west (Colorado, Utah, Oregon). Also planning on taking CK July 2nd before 4th year starts. Have done well on shelfs, studying already, expect to do well but if I'm not doing well on PT's leading up to it I'll push it back.

Chances?
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If you can't match, I don't think there is much hope for the rest of us.
 
You're gold, just keep honoring the rest of clinicals. Don't sacrifice a grade in OB or peds to get too busy with research. After Step 1, programs care more about your clinical grades than just about anything else.

Pick your away rotation based on where you want to go and work your butt off.
 
What would the chances be for a carib student with a 260+ step 1? So far I've honored Surgery, Peds, and passed an irrelevant elective that was P/F. Do the scores even make a difference or will I be screened out based off school name alone? I also should have one paper published, not 1st author by the time ERAS roles around. Another project in progress.

I have considered doing a research year in between third and 4th year as well, but now that I've looked into it, it looks like a lot of programs already had their application date pass. If anyone is aware of programs that accept applications still it would be greatly appreciated.

Also not sure how to handle CK. I feel like I would want to take 2 weeks after my last core ends at the end of July to make sure I do well on CK also, but that means I'd have to forego doing my first Ortho elective until September, which I'm assuming would screw me as far as letters would.
 
RUc10 said:
What would the chances be for a carib student with a 260+ step 1? So far I've honored Surgery, Peds, and passed an irrelevant elective that was P/F. Do the scores even make a difference or will I be screened out based off school name alone? I also should have one paper published, not 1st author by the time ERAS roles around. Another project in progress.

I have considered doing a research year in between third and 4th year as well, but now that I've looked into it, it looks like a lot of programs already had their application date pass. If anyone is aware of programs that accept applications still it would be greatly appreciated.

Also not sure how to handle CK. I feel like I would want to take 2 weeks after my last core ends at the end of July to make sure I do well on CK also, but that means I'd have to forego doing my first Ortho elective until September, which I'm assuming would screw me as far as letters would.
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My home program would screen you out based on your school and they are no HSS
 
I did not come across any Caribbean or DO students on the interview trail... which is too bad because I'm sure you're a stellar applicant. Have people from your school matched ortho before? They would probably be the best guides.
 
massmocha said:
I did not come across any Caribbean or DO students on the interview trail... which is too bad because I'm sure you're a stellar applicant. Have people from your school matched ortho before? They would probably be the best guides.
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That's a little disheartening, but not unexpected.

People have matched from my school. Typically there is always one. Last year there were a few that matched. I've tried to find out their history and all have done a research year and/or prelim year(s). That being said, I also feel that my application is better than what it was upon graduation for those that ended up matching eventually, so I'm unsure of whether or not that counts for anything.

I also know that 1 or 2 of the people that have matched in recent years matched to a program that is/was on probation as far as I know. For the most part, it's tough to find any kind of trend. I went through almost all the lists of ortho programs and a lot of the programs only have 1 resident, so I don't think there are any (besides the one that was on probation), that are "FMG friendly." My inkling is that those random people just "know somebody." It's rare you hear of IMG's matching Ortho, but there are a few every year according to the NRMP data, I guess I have to do a better job of figuring out how to go about the process.
 
No one cares about Step 2. It looks nice to have a score above your Step 1 (which is not difficult because the mean/SD is higher for Step 2, so almost everyone outscores their Step 1 grade with minimal studying . I took it in November of application year, hadn't done any medicine or shelfs in 8 months, just did Qbank for a month and went up 4 points -- though I went down several percentiles from Step 1 -- programs just want to see that you passed and didn't bomb it.

AOA is a big help, you can look at Charting outcomes and see that almost everyone with AOA matches in ortho. My school didn't have Junior AOA, so I don't know how much stock people put in that, as long as you got senior AOA in time to put it on ERAS, the question doesn't specify junior vs senior AOA, it is just a checkbox that asks if you are AOA or not.

If you're trying to couples match, I am not understanding your away rotation selection. If she wants to got to Boston or Philly, why aren't you doing your aways there? The biggest factor in where people match is where they do their rotations... I would recommend coordinating with her. If she gets interviews at those top programs and you aren't offered anything in Boston or Philly, that will be out of the picture. That's up to you. I knew I wanted to be on the east coast so I did all my aways here and got interviews on east coast and a bunch of randoms in the midwest. I would recommend rotating in Chicago if that's somewhere you want to be. Same for NYC or LA. Those cities are notorious for not granting interviews unless you have demonstrated interest by rotating there. I did not rotate there and was completely shut out form all 3 cities. Who knows, maybe my app wasn't good enough, but I got interviews at most of the top programs, "better rated" programs than some of the NYC/LA/Chicago ones, but not a single invite there. So pick your aways wisely. I don't think 70 programs is unreasonable for someone doing couples match. Beyond that number you're just going to be throwing apps and money away.
 
Just double checked the AOA stats, out of 209 applicants with AOA, 203 matched.
 
I used Boston and CHOP as examples as they are probably the two top peds programs, but neither of us want to live in Philly or Boston that badly. Colorado will be our top choice and both plan on rotating there; I plan on submitting VSAS to them on the day they open so hopefully I can secure a spot.

I know AOA helps, but is it necessary to have to match at top programs?
 
Depends on the program. For example, Brown takes pride in taking almost exclusively AOA, 5 out of 6 were AOA last year. There are several schools like this that are entirely numbers focused. Of course it is not essential to be AOA to match, but I would guess given the choice between equivalent candidates a top program were err toward AOA vs not.
 
Trying to decide if I need to dual apply to ortho and anesthesia so any input would be great!

Step 1 240
Pre-Clinical 10 of 14 Honors
Clinical (so far) 4 of 4 Honors (OB, Surgery, Peds, Int Med)
Research: at least 6 projects, 2 posters, 1 abstract already; at least one more abstract and possibly 1-2 papers
Enough extra-curriculars and volunteering
Masters graduate degree
Former larger conference athlete so I have an interesting "story" that seemed to really help in med school interviews
 
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Looks good. Only thing that is below average (still decent though) is Step 1, but you have more than enough to make up for it. Keep up the clinical honors and crush your aways. It will be good to take Step 2 before your app and show improvement. Just make sure you study for it well.
 
Some help would be appreciated here too, on the fence as to whether competitive enough to go for it
School: not top 40, midwest
Step 1: 240
Rank: middle 1/3
Pre-clinicals: 1 honors (anatomy), 2 pass, rest high pass
Clinicals: all high pass
Research: 1 GI publication and GI poster presentation, 3 ortho publications and 6 ortho conference abstracts/poster presentations
Enough extra curricular activities, volunteering, leadership roles
 
Below average chance of matching. If you go for ortho, be sure to rotate at state/community programs, work your butt off and get good letters. Have a back-up plan during application season
 
Just saw the ortho pubs/presentations... maybe highlight that first on your app before the GI pubs ;)

If you get the interview, focus on the ortho work to increase your odds of matching
 
massmocha said:
Below average chance of matching. If you go for ortho, be sure to rotate at state/community programs, work your butt off and get good letters. Have a back-up plan during application season
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M1 here interested in ortho, so my questions are innocent and not malicious. I just want to know how to maximize my chances starting early.

What makes PagingDrBro have below chances of matching? Is it his Step score? Rank? Clinical or non-clinical grades?

Thanks in advance!
 
massmocha said:
Just saw the ortho pubs/presentations... maybe highlight that first on your app before the GI pubs ;)

If you get the interview, focus on the ortho work to increase your odds of matching
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Sorry about the research ordering, just went chronologically of how I got it all done.
Yeah, in my class I already know that stat wise (Step/Rank/Grades) I'm at or near the bottom of competitiveness for ortho in the group going for it.
2 of my letter writers at my home institution are renowned orthopedists so I hope that should help.
 
Good luck, just crush the aways and make a good impression on everyone you work with
 
augeremt said:
M1 here interested in ortho, so my questions are innocent and not malicious. I just want to know how to maximize my chances starting early.

What makes PagingDrBro have below chances of matching? Is it his Step score? Rank? Clinical or non-clinical grades?

Thanks in advance!
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The average matched ortho score last year for Step 1 was 245, so you should aim for above that mark. Then, the next most important thing is to Honors all, or as many as possible, clinical rotations. After that where you do your rotations and how much they like you are the biggest factors for matching. Good luck!
 
massmocha said:
The average matched ortho score last year for Step 1 was 245, so you should aim for above that mark. Then, the next most important thing is to Honors all, or as many as possible, clinical rotations. After that where you do your rotations and how much they like you are the biggest factors for matching. Good luck!
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Great. Thanks!
 
What's the deal with schools that don't have H/P/F system? My school only gives a whole number score for the rotation, so is there any good way to compare a 90 with another school's 'H'?
 
Would appreciate some advice on my chances.
Step 1 242
Jr. AOA
Honors - surgery, OB
High Pass - Peds, Psych
Pass - Medicine, FM
I've got one Ortho project which ended up with my name on a poster at national meeting.

I know the passes aren't good, but do I have a shot at matching?
 
RollieFingers said:
Would appreciate some advice on my chances.
Step 1 242
Jr. AOA
Honors - surgery, OB
High Pass - Peds, Psych
Pass - Medicine, FM
I've got one Ortho project which ended up with my name on a poster at national meeting.

I know the passes aren't good, but do I have a shot at matching?
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It's possible... you have Jr. AOA, which is good. Why did you get the passes? Is it shelf exams or personality or what? Do aways at schools that don't pull from national applicants and try to crush them.
 
What are some examples of programs that don't draw national applicants? It seems to me that most people apply to a huge number of schools
 
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RollieFingers said:
What are some examples of programs that don't draw national applicants? It seems to me that most people apply to a huge number of schools
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State programs, small community programs... places that aren't listed at the top of the us news rankings
 
Current MS3 looking for some advice:

Step 1: 235-240
Step 2CK: taking before 4th year
Research: pubs in ortho (5), gen surg, radiology. Multiple conferences/posters
School: NE private not top 50
Pre-clnical: Mostly H and HS. Some S
Clinical grades: all HS so far, currently on surgery
AOA: No

As far as the rest of 3rd year, my priorities are the surgery shelf and step 2CK until 4th year starts. I know that I'm at risk of not matching so I'm trying to be strategic about choosing aways. My school tends to match people in the NE region and I've been looking and found some community programs that I'm interested in (2/3 aways scheduled). However, there's still a couple of reach schools that I'm not sure if they are too far out of my league to do an away at. Specifically smaller private programs the big NE cities that seem within reach, but the problem is looking on frieda they tend draw a lot of applicants/interviews (>65). Does doing an away at a place where they offer tons of interviews to people anyway as one of my reach programs make sense, or should I rotate at a third community program? Thanks for your input.
 
ortho 2016 said:
Current MS3 looking for some advice:

Step 1: 235-240
Step 2CK: taking before 4th year
Research: pubs in ortho (5), gen surg, radiology. Multiple conferences/posters
School: NE private not top 50
Pre-clnical: Mostly H and HS. Some S
Clinical grades: all HS so far, currently on surgery
AOA: No

As far as the rest of 3rd year, my priorities are the surgery shelf and step 2CK until 4th year starts. I know that I'm at risk of not matching so I'm trying to be strategic about choosing aways. My school tends to match people in the NE region and I've been looking and found some community programs that I'm interested in (2/3 aways scheduled). However, there's still a couple of reach schools that I'm not sure if they are too far out of my league to do an away at. Specifically smaller private programs the big NE cities that seem within reach, but the problem is looking on frieda they tend draw a lot of applicants/interviews (>65). Does doing an away at a place where they offer tons of interviews to people anyway as one of my reach programs make sense, or should I rotate at a third community program? Thanks for your input.
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What programs are you talking about? You're going to have an uphill battle. Are your pubs first authors and what journals? You need to apply to every NE program and hope for some community programs in the midwest or mid-atlantic.
 
massmocha said:
What programs are you talking about? You're going to have an uphill battle. Are your pubs first authors and what journals? You need to apply to every NE program and hope for some community programs in the midwest or mid-atlantic.
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I don't really understand this "uphill battle" thing. I mean if you look at the 2014 match outcomes 75 % of the people with a 230-240 match into Ortho that sounds a little better than an "uphill battle".
 
rodmichael82 said:
I don't really understand this "uphill battle" thing. I mean if you look at the 2014 match outcomes 75 % of the people with a 230-240 match into Ortho that sounds a little better than an "uphill battle".
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That's fair, I suppose I overstated. I'm just saying with a 25% chance of not matching, you probably want to play it conservatively.
 
massmocha said:
That's fair, I suppose I overstated. I'm just saying with a 25% chance of not matching, you probably want to play it conservatively.
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I absolutely agree with you. I just think the whole it's a uphill battle or matching is going to be hard might be a little bit of an overstatement. Considering how competitive orthopedic surgery is a 75 % shot is a decent chance. 240-250 83 % of the people match. Now is there statistically a significant difference between 75 % and 83 % yeah sure maybe but even then not a huge difference.
On the other hand though people with 220-230 only 53 % of them match that to me definitely sounds like an uphill battle.
I just think based on the numbers > 235 gives you a decent shot at Ortho (anything > 75 % chance of matching is pretty damn good) but then again that's my opinion strictly based on 2014 match outcomes. I have not gone through the whole process so people know a lot more than I do.
 
Is there a statistic from the NRMP data that tells you the likelihood of matching based on the number of interview invites?
 
Ah Thanks, I saw that and interpreted it as such, but I was hoping there was something more specific. I guess that assumption is good enough. Since I'm a DO applicant I doubt any of these statistics apply to me anyhow. According to the latest NRMP data, someone with my Step 1 had a 99% match rate last year, so I was hoping I could assess my odds based on the number of interview invites I receive this year. Maybe I'll think about skipping that DO match if I hit that 14 or 15 interview invites. A man can dream!
 
Tired said:
Sort of. They give you likelihood of matching based on number of contiguous programs ranked. If you assume that almost everybody only ranks sites that they have interviewed at, this may be roughly what you're asking.

View attachment 192258
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Yeah, this is as close as you'll get. The obvious issue is that the person who goes to 15 interviews with 15 invites likely has a lower chance of matching than the guy who goes to 15 interviews with 30 invites
 
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