OMFS vs. ENDO

[makohunter18]

Which is more stressful/hectic day to day in private practice and which has the harder road to opening a practice? What are private practice oral surgeons and endodontists ACTUALLY making? "Average" salaries posted on career websites don't seem remotely accurate.....(i'm very interested in both and would appreciate some opinions)

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[Medin2017]

Which is more stressful/hectic day to day in private practice and which has the harder road to opening a practice? What are private practice oral surgeons and endodontists ACTUALLY making? "Average" salaries posted on career websites don't seem remotely accurate.....(i'm very interested in both and would appreciate some opinions)

Other than the ADA report (which many say is inaccurate), there's not much else out there. Some omfs on these boards post about making 220 for a year or 2 and 350+ later on or something like that but who knows. Some dentaltown general dentists say you'll be guaranteed 400-500 with these 2 occupations, but again that's among the people they know. For what it's worth a young omfs told me they work with ENT and plastic surgeons in residencies and he believes OMFS come out on top just because how fast the cash cow procedures are. SDN, dental town, and that random OMFS are my only sources on this.

 

[Medin2017]

Can I Make $350K Per Annum As An Oral Surgeon?

Here's a post from like 1 year ago asking about omfs. Who knows honestly but if you're a naive predent->d1 like me it's nicer to read these than the damn "dental is oversaturated!!! school expensive!! Corporate takeover!!" that plagues dtown and predent side of sdn

 

[Dr Sugar]

You won't be poor either way. Pick the profession that makes you happy

 

[Van Der Woude]

There is a good chance you will be practicing in your field for 25-40 years after graduation. I strongly recommend money not be in the top 3 reasons to pursue a specialty. If you do, you will be miserable. Make sure you find the procedures enjoyable.

"screw off van der woude, i want that doctor life style"

Lol, ok, you guys asked for it. Time to break out the stats and examples of why money should not be a factor when choosing a specialty:

example 1: Orthodontics was once a field where just graduating guaranteed you bank. Every kid back in the day saw this and said "i want to be an orthodontist." More and more people start applying ortho. Schools notice this trend. They start thinking they can open up more programs and charge. Now, I see young orthodontists graduating with 600k-800k of debt between 6-8% at age 30. Starting salaries for these guys is 150-200k. "But Mr. Woude, they could start their own practice and make a million a year!" Hahahaha. Starting practices takes money and time. Neither of which the ortho will have when his/her loans accrue 49k in the starting year. More young orthos travelling office to office means less $$ for the private practice owner orthos. A lot of these guys complain they were expecting more. This type of orthodontist would have been better off fiscally if he became a general practitioner worked 3 years making 120-150k, eliminating his dental school loans, and then take a bank loan at 3-5% for a practice. He could then have invested whatever money he had left in the market at 6-7% and have made 1% a year extra in cash by extending his practice loan payments to 30 years instead of 15(what people in the business world consider free money). He could have then invested even more money and earned 7% a year. These numbers are hypothetical but very likely and realistically to show up in your future.

example 2: There are always "desirable and profitable" fields and "non-desierable and non-profitable" fields that switch every few decades. For example, Ophtomology was one of the "desirable and profitable fields" of medicine 1990s. Cushy lifestyle, more bills than a flock of flamingos. Then they drastically decreased reimbursement rates. A very close family friend who graduate from an ophthalmology residency back in the day said that in 1996, cataract surgery for a single patient were $1800-$2000 dependent on coding. That decreased to $300 within 10 years. If your in it for the money, and this **** happened to you... you'd be the most miserable guy on the planet. This is an example of a "desirable field" becoming undesirable. Pathology, a medical specialty, just lost 75% of its medicaid/medicare reimbursement rate in most of its procedures from 2013 to 2016. Lots of private practice pathology labs closed and now even new grads are having hard times finding long term employment. Imagine if your future specialty's reimbursement rate dropped. You missed funerals, parties, gym time, sleep, kid's games to do your best for YEARS and all for naught cause things outside of your control decided to take away one of your motivating factors for entering the field.

Example 3: The opposite of example 2 in which a non-desirable field becomes desirable. Years ago, Orthopedic surgery used to be a place for jocks, dinguses, and what the rest of the medical community considered "*****s" who just used to amputate legs. Now it is probably one of the most competitive fields in medicine due to all of the different procedures and materials they do/use. Also, their reimbursement is incredibly high. Who's to say this won't happen to prosth as more and more people are to busy trying to learn implant placement than they are trying to make dentures?

Example 4: you are working as an OMFS in a already saturated area but still are doing fine but don't take call at a hospital or are even affilated with one. You just do simple implants and extractions in your office. Then one guy from an implant fellowship comes and starts working for the people that once referred to you and undercuts your prices. The owners now get to keep some of the cash and you have to spend more time in the hospital doing what you think are "undesirable" procedures b/c they don't pay as well. This same stuff happened to Roseendo a studentdoctor forum user and an endodontist, when a new grad that loved doing endo was hired by a referring general dentist. "oh no Mr. Woude, that type of stuff won't happen to me or the field I choose, so I am still going to do it for the money." Listen guys, it happens to someone. What makes you think it won't happen to you? All it takes is one mistake to lose your footing on your climb to the top of success mountain. And you will definitely lose your footing if you don't take the advice of someone who's already climbed it.

Please take notes my fellow impressionable dental students who have never taken a legitimate business class in their lives and probably haven't made effective cost/benefit ratios before. If you are accepted into dental school, you will be successful if you practice what you love b/c you are already in a high paying field. I know general dentists that do it all and are excellent at their work, and are probably the most successful type of dentists around. They have endodontists and oral surgeons coming to their office to work for them! The general dentist takes a cut and has no liability! Amazing business decision IMO. If you plan on specializing, do it cause you like those procedures more than any other procedures and are willing to give these "other" procedures up. It is impossible to say what are "desirable/profitable" and "undesirable/unprofitable" fields b/c they will change by the time you become a 4th year dental student and by the time you actually graduate from a residency and probably one more time after you ill-advisedly bought that new beach house. The money you make will change dependent on your practice setting, local competition, average household income around your practice, and down markets.

TL;DR: Money is fluctuant in healthcare. sometimes its there, other times its not.

Many dental students ask "should I pursue this specialty cause it has $$?"
What you should start asking yourself instead are the following:
1) "Am I interested in this specialty enough to dedicate 35 years to it, even if the money dries up?" and
2) "Do I have enough money in my account currently and enough time in my future to pursue this specialty??".

 

[Medin2017]

There is a good chance you will be practicing in your field for 25-40 years after graduation. I strongly recommend money not be in the top 3 reasons to pursue a specialty. If you do, you will be miserable. Make sure you find the procedures enjoyable.

"screw off van der woude, i want that doctor life style"

Lol, ok, you guys asked for it. Time to break out the stats and examples of why money should not be a factor when choosing a specialty:

example 1: Orthodontics was once a field where just graduating guaranteed you bank. Every kid back in the day saw this and said "i want to be an orthodontist." More and more people start applying ortho. Schools notice this trend. They start thinking they can open up more programs and charge. Now, I see young orthodontists graduating with 600k-800k of debt between 6-8% at age 30. Starting salaries for these guys is 150-200k. "But Mr. Woude, they could start their own practice and make a million a year!" Hahahaha. Starting practices takes money and time. Neither of which the ortho will have when his/her loans accrue 49k in the starting year. More young orthos travelling office to office means less $$ for the private practice owner orthos. A lot of these guys complain they were expecting more. This type of orthodontist would have been better off fiscally if he became a general practitioner worked 3 years making 120-150k, eliminating his dental school loans, and then take a bank loan at 3-5% for a practice. He could then have invested whatever money he had left in the market at 6-7% and have made 1% a year extra in cash by extending his practice loan payments to 30 years instead of 15(what people in the business world consider free money). He could have then invested even more money and earned 7% a year. These numbers are hypothetical but very likely and realistically to show up in your future.

example 2: There are always "desirable and profitable" fields and "non-desierable and non-profitable" fields that switch every few decades. For example, Ophtomology was one of the "desirable and profitable fields" of medicine 1990s. Cushy lifestyle, more bills than a flock of flamingos. Then they drastically decreased reimbursement rates. A very close family friend who graduate from an ophthalmology residency back in the day said that in 1996, cataract surgery for a single patient were $1800-$2000 dependent on coding. That decreased to $300 within 10 years. If your in it for the money, and this **** happened to you... you'd be the most miserable guy on the planet. This is an example of a "desirable field" becoming undesirable. Pathology, a medical specialty, just lost 75% of its medicaid/medicare reimbursement rate in most of its procedures from 2013 to 2016. Lots of private practice pathology labs closed and now even new grads are having hard times finding long term employment. Imagine if your future specialty's reimbursement rate dropped. You missed funerals, parties, gym time, sleep, kid's games to do your best for YEARS and all for naught cause things outside of your control decided to take away one one of your motivating factors for entering the field.

Example 3: The opposite of example 2 in which a non-desirable field becomes desirable. Years ago, Orthopedic surgery used to be a place for jocks, dinguses, and what the rest of the medical community considered "*****s" who just used to amputate legs. Now it is probably one of the most competitive fields in medicine due to all of the different procedures, materials, and reimbursement they use. Who's to say this won't happen to prosth as more and more people are to busy trying to learn implant placement than they are trying to make dentures?

Example 4: you are working as an OMFS in a already saturated area but still are doing fine but don't take call at a hospital or are even affilated with one. You just do simple implants and extractions in your office. Then one guy from an implant fellowship comes and starts working for the people that once referred to you and undercuts your prices. The owners now get to keep some of the cash and you have to spend more time in the hospital doing what you think are "undesirable" procedures b/c they don't pay as well. This same stuff happened to Roseendo a studentdoctor forum user and an endodontist, when a new grad that loved doing endo was hired by a referring general dentist. "oh no Mr. Woude, that type of stuff won't happen to me or the field I choose, so I am still going to do it for the money." Listen guys, it happens to someone. What makes you think it won't happen to you? All it takes is one mistake to lose your footing on your climb to the top of success mountain. And you will definitely lose your footing if you don't take the advice of someone who's already climbed it.

Please take notes my fellow impressionable dental students who have never taken a legitimate business class in their lives and probably haven't made effective cost/benefit ratios before. If you are accepted into dental school, you will be successful if you practice what you love b/c you are already in a high paying field. I know general dentists that do it all and are excellent at their work, and are probably the most successful type of dentists around. They have endodontists and oral surgeons coming to their office to work for them! The general dentist takes a cut and has no liability! Amazing business decision IMO. If you plan on specializing, do it cause you like those procedures more than any other procedures and are willing to give these "other" procedures up. It is impossible to say what are "desirable/profitable" and "undesirable/unprofitable" fields b/c they will change by the time you become a 4th year dental student and by the time you actually graduate from a residency and probably one more time after you ill-advisedly bought that new beach house. The money you make will change dependent on your practice setting, local competition, average household income around your practice, and down markets.

TL;DR: Money is fluctuant in healthcare. sometimes its there, other times its not.

Many dental students ask "should I pursue this specialty cause it has $$?"
What you should start asking yourself instead are the following:
1) "Am I interested in this specialty enough to dedicate 35 years to it, even if the money dries up?" and
2) "Do I have enough money in my account and time CURRENTLY to pursue this specialty??".

I feel all your scenarios are what ifs while there are actual 100% issues in general dental that are hitting every city (saturation, corporation, even dental therapists and other bs like that). A scarier and likely higher probability what if scenario is being a general dentist and only working under associates because you can't find a place to open up, making <150k for >1 year. Or slaving at a corporate office to improve speed because you don't want to go super rural. IDK jack right now since I'm an entering D1, but I much would rather chase a specialty and then go general if I so desire than be some of the dentists I read about on dtown who regretted not scoring higher grades and doing poorly as a general dentist and unable to go back into a specialty.

Secondly just look around SDN itself. There are few omfs on here but they all seem to say moneys easy and they love their job. This is definitely not the case with general dentistry (other than tanman coldfront and that guy with the 5 year ama), where people are much more vocal about doom and gloom.

Chasing money alone is stupid of course, but there are other factors (stability, lack of saturation because residencies are an actual bottleneck unlike orthodontic schools/dental schools) you get as an omfs that you would lack as a general dentist.

 

[Van Der Woude]

I feel all your scenarios are what ifs while there are actual 100% issues in general dental that are hitting every city (saturation, corporation, even dental therapists and other bs like that). A scarier and likely higher probability what if scenario is being a general dentist and only working under associates because you can't find a place to open up, making <150k for >1 year. Or slaving at a corporate office to improve speed because you don't want to go super rural. IDK jack right now since I'm an entering D1, but I much would rather chase a specialty and then go general if I so desire than be some of the dentists I read about on dtown who regretted not scoring higher grades and doing poorly as a general dentist and unable to go back into a specialty.

Secondly just look around SDN itself. There are few omfs on here but they all seem to say moneys easy and they love their job. This is definitely not the case with general dentistry (other than tanman coldfront and that guy with the 5 year ama), where people are much more vocal about doom and gloom.

Chasing money alone is stupid of course, but there are other factors (stability, lack of saturation because residencies are an actual bottleneck unlike orthodontic schools/dental schools) you get as an omfs that you would lack as a general dentist.

NOTICE: You do not need to be a specialist to do specialist procedures. The first thing they tell you at implant courses offered as part of your curriculum and in CE is that implant companies want general dentists to start placing implants, even if they are not at as good. More people that can place implants means the implant companies get more money. And the ADA is of course going to help the majority of its constituents, IE general dentists, get more money. Even endo has become easier for general dentists with the creation of rotary instrumentation. These people still get paid though, and quite handsomely if they learn effectively. If you LEARN the material you will do fine even as a "general dentist".

Also, you say that some dental students are trapped as associates? Some specialists are too, if they take out to much loans pursuing dental school. Hypothetically (lets say NYU), you graduate with 400k in debt. I'll even be generous and won't calculate the accrued interested at the end NYU dental school. Then you enter a tuitioned endo residency at 300k total. Like this guy: How to pay off about $1 Million in student loans. • r/personalfinance

I don't have sympathy for this guy b/c he is thinking how you are thinking right now. That specializing== money. It doesn't. Just being a specialist doesn't mean money. You have to continue working hard if you want money. go look through localnative's post history if you need more evidence. that man WORKS, and he graduated from his residency years ago. There was even a thread recently about vell talking about how he doesn't even have time to feed his cat. i'm sure you'll figure it out after you enter dental school.

and OMFS, easy money? Talk to some residents dude. They will all tell you the only reason they survived is cause they loved their field. I am sure getting a call on christmas to come in for a ludwig's angina case is not to some people's fancy. Neither is graduating above age 30 and getting paid 60k a year for 4-6 years, maybe less with tuition while some of their friends are chilling on some beach in the mediterranean. I bet that 10 hour path case was a pain too. The reason OMFS is a bottleneck is b/c its a hard life, and dental students are lazy pieces of crap and most are to burnt out to learn more after dental school.
Also, in OMFS private practice, a majority of your salary relies on extractions and implant referrals. If you think that reimbursement rates for extractions will remain the same for the rest of your life, you will almost definitely be in for a rude awakening in the future.

I personally hope to be an OMFS. but not b/c of the money. its because it has the coolest procedures and the most amazing colleagues. I'd rather do a lefort than crowns and dentures for the rest of my life.

Anyway, I hope you survive your first two years of dental school, young blood. If you survive the culling, i'll buy you a beer.

 

[vellnueve]

I feel all your scenarios are what ifs while there are actual 100% issues in general dental that are hitting every city (saturation, corporation, even dental therapists and other bs like that). A scarier and likely higher probability what if scenario is being a general dentist and only working under associates because you can't find a place to open up, making <150k for >1 year. Or slaving at a corporate office to improve speed because you don't want to go super rural. IDK jack right now since I'm an entering D1, but I much would rather chase a specialty and then go general if I so desire than be some of the dentists I read about on dtown who regretted not scoring higher grades and doing poorly as a general dentist and unable to go back into a specialty.

Secondly just look around SDN itself. There are few omfs on here but they all seem to say moneys easy and they love their job. This is definitely not the case with general dentistry (other than tanman coldfront and that guy with the 5 year ama), where people are much more vocal about doom and gloom.

Chasing money alone is stupid of course, but there are other factors (stability, lack of saturation because residencies are an actual bottleneck unlike orthodontic schools/dental schools) you get as an omfs that you would lack as a general dentist.

The need for general dentists is never going away. The people you see here are mostly negative because they'd rather complain online than do the leg work.

I can't think of any of my classmates who aren't happily employed and there's 160 of them.

 

[Medin2017]

NOTICE: You do not need to be a specialist to do specialist procedures. The first thing they tell you at implant courses offered as part of your curriculum and in CE is that implant companies want general dentists to start placing implants, even if they are not at as good. More people that can place implants means the implant companies get more money. And the ADA is of course going to help the majority of its constituents, IE general dentists, get more money. Even endo has become easier for general dentists with the creation of rotary instrumentation. These people still get paid though, and quite handsomely if they learn effectively. If you LEARN the material you will do fine even as a "general dentist".

Also, you say that some dental students are trapped as associates? Some specialists are too, if they take out to much loans pursuing dental school. Hypothetically (lets say NYU), you graduate with 400k in debt. I'll even be generous and won't calculate the accrued interested at the end NYU dental school. Then you enter a tuitioned endo residency at 300k total. Like this guy: How to pay off about $1 Million in student loans. • r/personalfinance

I don't have sympathy for this guy b/c he is thinking how you are thinking right now. That specializing== money. It doesn't. Just being a specialist doesn't mean money. You have to continue working hard if you want money. go look through localnative's post history if you need more evidence. that man WORKS. i'm sure you'll figure it out after you enter dental school.

and OMFS, easy money? Talk to some residents dude. They will all tell you the only reason they survived is cause they loved their field. I am sure getting a call on christmas to come in for a ludwig's angina case is not to some people's fancy. Neither is graduating above age 30 and getting paid 60k a year for 4-6 years, maybe less with tuition while some of their friends are chilling on some beach in the mediterranean. I bet that 10 hour path case was a pain too.

I personally hope to be an OMFS. but not b/c of the money. its because it has the coolest procedures. and I'd rather do that than crowns and dentures for the rest of my life.

Also, you say OMFS residency is a bottleneck. True OMFS residency is a bottleneck. But your salary relies on a majority of extractions and implant referrals in private practice. If you think that reimbursement rates for extractions will remain the same for the rest of your life, you will almost definitely be in for a rude awakening in the future.

Anyway, I hope you survive your first two years of dental school, young blood. Seeing as its still summer, go find some online business classes and buy/read some dental business books on amazon.

Nope specialist =/= more money it's = more money on average. There are poor specialists but there are MANY more poor dentists from a percentile standpoint not only absolute value. Likewise there are way more dentists regretting not specializing or doing something else than there are specialists wanting the opposite.

I also wasn't mentioning ortho/endo at all because they have more problems (saturation, high cost residencies) than omfs (which is its own bottleneck, pays you during residency, etc).

Oh hell no OMFS is not easy money. I know the "buy in" of studying your ass off and 80 hr hell years during residency is tough. However AFTERWARDS the lifestyle is gravy (from an omfs I talked to as well as based on what I read on forums). I'd take that over a potential coming out of dental school and being an average general dentist or even an above average one who still needs to be concerned of the variables that aren't hitting omfs as much.

I agree reimbursement rates will drop, but if reimbursement rates drop for general i would still take a specialty in a heart beat. Most omfs say the future is still looking bright so there's that (while general dentists all around are crying about the future or saying they wouldn't do it again).

Thanks for the advice and wishing me the best, I hope I survive as well.

 

[Screwtape]

I feel all your scenarios are what ifs while there are actual 100% issues in general dental that are hitting every city (saturation, corporation, even dental therapists and other bs like that). A scarier and likely higher probability what if scenario is being a general dentist and only working under associates because you can't find a place to open up, making <150k for >1 year. Or slaving at a corporate office to improve speed because you don't want to go super rural. IDK jack right now since I'm an entering D1, but I much would rather chase a specialty and then go general if I so desire than be some of the dentists I read about on dtown who regretted not scoring higher grades and doing poorly as a general dentist and unable to go back into a specialty.

Secondly just look around SDN itself. There are few omfs on here but they all seem to say moneys easy and they love their job. This is definitely not the case with general dentistry (other than tanman coldfront and that guy with the 5 year ama), where people are much more vocal about doom and gloom.

Chasing money alone is stupid of course, but there are other factors (stability, lack of saturation because residencies are an actual bottleneck unlike orthodontic schools/dental schools) you get as an omfs that you would lack as a general dentist.

Wizzie reimbursement is cut to half or less. Now what? @Van Der Woude made a lot of good points. General dentistry offers a more hedged bet IMO compared to the specialities. When investing do you put all of your money into one industry or stock? This idea is exactly why there is an increasing push for endodontists to place implants. OMFS can offer a great lifestyle no doubt, but as mentioned above don't specialize with $$$ as a the main reason. With that all being said IMO OMFS is the least susceptible speciality to troubles in the future. Wide scope, limited numbers, hard residency etc. But private practice OMFS bread butter are really only a few procedures.

 

[Medin2017]

The need for general dentists is never going away. The people you see here are mostly negative because they'd rather complain online than do the leg work.

I can't think of any of my classmates who aren't happily employed and there's 160 of them.

The need will never go away, but the location of the need is something to consider as well, correct? Supply is much larger in cities people actually prefer to live in (surprise surprise) and as the years go by it would be even greater correct? And I agree that the complainers have the loudest voice, but there are plenty of successful dentists still saying they wouldn't do it in today's environment. That's a voice that scares me more than a random dentist who screwed himself up.

 

[Medin2017]

Wizzie reimbursement is cut to half or less. Now what? @Van Der Woude made a lot of good points. General dentistry offers a more hedged bet IMO compared to the specialities. When investing do you put all of your money into one industry or stock? This idea is exactly why there is an increasing push for endodontists to place implants. OMFS can offer a great lifestyle no doubt, but as mentioned above don't specialize with $$$ as a the main reason. With that all being said IMO OMFS is the least susceptible speciality to troubles in the future. Wide scope, limited numbers, hard residency etc. But private practice OMFS bread butter are really only a few procedures.

yea i know private practice omfs is very few and I agree it's possible reimbursement could be cut. I'm not hedging on 1 industry vs stock, more like hedging on the stock everyone is saying has a bright future over the stocks where many people who invested in them are warning others about it.

I really wish for general dentistry to be good because as I've said I'm nowhere even close to being a resident and dental school is filled with brainiacs. However the picture being painted of the current state and future is looking sadder to me than it did when I was a freshman in college.

 

[Van Der Woude]

Sorry guys, I am not complaining. Even in my original post it says that money is great in all fields of dentistry and that you shouldn't pick b/c of money. I even said i believe general dentistry has bright future. Just don't choose a field b/c of money.

medin, study hard. you'll be fine. general dentists who don't do fine are b/c they spent to much time messing around and not learning the tricks of the game. Also, my advice, hang out with some prosth residents beginning whenver you guys start dentures class. Residents love teaching, you gotta get As if your making this dream come true.

 

[Medin2017]

Sorry guys, I am not complaining. Even in my original post it says that money is great in all fields of dentistry and that you shouldn't pick b/c of money. I even said i believe general dentistry has bright future. Just don't choose a field b/c of money. i'll stop talking not.

Yea ik the money's good. I know you said you'll stop talking, but I just wanna know why you believe general dentistry has a bright future (or at least a future that's at least equal to how it is now). Can you please talk about the issues of new dental schools opening up with more dentists and dentists retiring later and the increase in corporations and potential threat of midlevel providers? Your insight is valuable

 

[Van Der Woude]

First and foremost, I plan on doing OMFS. i believe the future of OMFS and general is bright, but I would strongly recommend you keep your options open right now.

I believe general dentistry has the BEST outlook in terms of income b/c of BUSINESS. A lot of the general dentistry procedures pay well. Endo? yup. extractions? yup. crowns/bridges? yup. dentures (ewww)? still yeah. If you can limit your debt, and go into dental school trying to learn as much as you can, general will have the best lifestyle and money, hands down. If you treat the 4-6 years after you graduate dental school as a OMFS residency in terms of how long you are working and your CE courses (implants, advanced endo, blah blah blah), you'll be making bank and have a high salary equal to if not more than than a graduating OMFS who was in your class who did 6 years. graduating omfs starting is between 220k-280k not including bonuses after 4-6 years of 60k pre tax, (36-45k post tax depending on state and other stuff and not including dental school loan repayments).

The general dentist pays off his loan faster, buys into a practice faster, and made more money at a lower tax bracket the than OMFS if he works like he was and OMFS(gotta get that experience and $$), meaning he made more money earlier, at a lower tax bracket (meaning he keeps more of it since it was spread at 140-160k per year 6 years earlier than OMFS starts), that he gets to invest into his practice and the market. the general dentist also has less compounding loan interest. even in down markets, when less patients are coming to the office, the dentist can always spend time doing cases he can do but doesn't in an up market because they took to much time. meaning less referrals outwards towards specialists.

Now lets say this general dentist is still ambitious. He doesn't think where he is good enough and he wants more. He decides to try and expand his practice b/c he's got the money to do it and he has the time to do it as well b/c his new associates bring in cash for his existing practice. He can keep trying to open more practices and eventually stop working b/c he has associates/specialists rolling through his multiple office who can't afford to open their own practices cause they had poor money management skills in dental school and residency. He doesn't even have to be at his office anymore if he makes someone a junior partner at that office and tells them to deal with the daily issues, but still collects cash just driving to his offices, checking up each office for 15 min, and then leaving. Theres a guy outside of Las Vegas Nevada who pretty much just does this with his 23 offices.

Most general dentists don't do this though. They like to enjoy their lives outside of their work. Nothing wrong with that. Thats why they chose dentistry. I believe the majority of general dentists do great. However, a few will end up with a feast or famine. Just a few, but those few that feast really will be taking advantage of those few in the famine. And guess what? In the world of business, thats completely fine.

Again, this route is probably much harder. High risk high reward.

I'll probably write a book on this 20 years from now cause theres a lot more stuff I could talk about but still want to wait to confirm with time.

Anyone, You gotta like it for the procedures. More likely than not, you'll end up unhappy later in your career if you do it for the money. Thats all I'm getting at. General dentist do great. Specialists too. You gotta keep up your diligence/residency from school once you start practicing if you even want a taste of success though whether you specialize or do general.

Seriously though, finish your first two years of dental school first. Limit your debt. Or you will become like one of these unsuccessful dentists. Limiting your debt is the first step to success.

 

[Steins;Gate]

First and foremost, I plan on doing OMFS. i believe the future of OMFS and general is bright, but I would strongly recommend you keep your options open right now.

I believe general dentistry has the BEST outlook in terms of income b/c of BUSINESS. A lot of the general dentistry procedures pay well. Endo? yup. extractions? yup. crowns/bridges? yup. dentures (ewww)? still yeah. If you can limit your debt, and go into dental school trying to learn as much as you can, general will have the best lifestyle and money, hands down. If you treat the 4-6 years after you graduate dental school as a OMFS residency in terms of how long you are working and your CE courses (implants, advanced endo, blah blah blah), you'll be making bank and have a high salary equal to if not more than than a graduating OMFS who was in your class who did 6 years. graduating omfs starting is between 220k-280k not including bonuses after 4-6 years of 60k pre tax, (36-45k post tax depending on state and other stuff and not including dental school loan repayments).

The general dentist pays off his loan faster, buys into a practice faster, and made more money at a lower tax bracket the than OMFS if he works like he was and OMFS(gotta get that experience and $$), meaning he made more money earlier, at a lower tax bracket (meaning he keeps more of it since it was spread at 140-160k per year 6 years earlier than OMFS starts), that he gets to invest into his practice and the market. the general dentist also has less compounding loan interest. even in down markets, when less patients are coming to the office, the dentist can always spend time doing cases he can do but doesn't in an up market because they took to much time. meaning less referrals outwards towards specialists.

Now lets say this general dentist is still ambitious. He doesn't think where he is good enough and he wants more. He decides to try and expand his practice b/c he's got the money to do it and he has the time to do it as well b/c his new associates bring in cash for his existing practice. He can keep trying to open more practices and eventually stop working b/c he has associates/specialists rolling through his multiple office who can't afford to open their own practices cause they had poor money management skills in dental school and residency. He doesn't even have to be at his office anymore if he makes someone a junior partner at that office and tells them to deal with the daily issues, but still collects cash just driving to his offices, checking up each office for 15 min, and then leaving. Theres a guy outside of Las Vegas Nevada who pretty much just does this with his 23 offices.

Most general dentists don't do this though. They like to enjoy their lives outside of their work. Nothing wrong with that. Thats why they chose dentistry. I believe the majority of general dentists do great. However, a few will end up with a feast or famine. Just a few, but those few that feast really will be taking advantage of those few in the famine. And guess what? In the world of business, thats completely fine.

Again, this route is probably much harder. High risk high reward.

anyway, don't don't any specialty for the money. More likely than not, you'll end up unhappy later in your career if you do.

Say one is an established general dentist who is pretty decent with business sense and not in a super saturated location. What would be a reasonable ballpark cash flow?

 

[Van Der Woude]

Say one is an established general dentist who is pretty decent with business sense and not in a super saturated location. What would be a reasonable ballpark cash flow?

IDK dude. I need more info to work off.
What is the location? What is the average household income in the area? These guys blue collar? White collar? Are more people moving into the town than are moving out? Whats the average level of education? Anyway, thats what those dental chains like Aspen look at when deciding where to open up a new practice.

If you are buying a practice, how many chairs does it have? what % of profits come from hygiene? Whats referred out currently and what do you have to refer out because you don't feel comfortable with the procedure and what can you keep since you feel comfortable with it? Do you get rid of my employee health benefits? What do your loans look like? Is the practice incorporated? What do recall rates look like? Any new offices open up in the area? What does cash flow the last 5 years look like?

money is fluctuant in healthcare. Do your homework and you'll be find. Also, homework doesn't stop once you leave school if you want to remain ahead. If you want to learn more, get some business books. Especially the summer b4 dental school. You won't have time like that again if you plan on specializing.

 

[Steins;Gate]

IDK dude. I need more info to work off.
What is the location? What is the average household income in the area? These guys blue collar? White collar? Are more people moving into the town than are moving out? Whats the average level of education? Anyway, thats what those dental chains like Aspen look at when deciding where to open up a new practice.

If you are buying a practice, how many chairs does it have? what % of profits come from hygiene? Whats referred out currently and what do you have to refer out because you don't feel comfortable with the procedure and what can you keep since you feel comfortable with it? Do you get rid of my employee health benefits? What do your loans look like? Is the practice incorporated? What do recall rates look like? Any new offices open up in the area? What does cash flow the last 5 years look like?

money is fluctuant in healthcare. Do your homework and you'll be find. Also, homework doesn't stop once you leave school if you want to remain ahead. If you want to learn more, get some business books. Especially the summer b4 dental school. You won't have time like that again if you plan on specializing.

An hour from a major city. 25% hyg. 5 ops. Decent area growth. 2500:1 ratio. Many specialty procedures referred out.

 

[Steins;Gate]

.

 

[Van Der Woude]

An hour from a major city. 25% hyg. 5 ops. Decent area growth. 2500:1 ratio. Many specialty procedures referred out.

Sorry dude, my questions where rhetorical, haha. These are things you should find out. I remember volunteering at one of my state dental conventions and getting posted at the banking booth with the bankers. I just peppered them with questions. Next state convention they have, they usually ask for volunteers from the state dental school. Go and ask the bankers lots of questions. They are happy to answer them.

 

[Steins;Gate]

Sorry dude, my questions where rhetorical, haha. These are things you should find out. I remember volunteering at one of my state dental conventions and getting posted at the banking booth with the bankers. I just peppered them with questions. Next state convention they have, they usually ask for volunteers from the state dental school. Go and ask the bankers lots of questions. They are happy to answer them.

Thanks man. Ya i know ahaha. Just an interesting thought question.

 

[schmoob]

Don't underestimate the autonomy of a GP. Got a pt that's a complete PITA? Refer.

 

[periopocket]

Don't underestimate the autonomy of a GP. Got a pt that's a complete PITA? Refer.

Lots of advantages of being a GP - not strictly relying on referrals is huge.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Steins;Gate]

.

 

[Medin2017]

First and foremost, I plan on doing OMFS. i believe the future of OMFS and general is bright, but I would strongly recommend you keep your options open right now.

I believe general dentistry has the BEST outlook in terms of income b/c of BUSINESS. A lot of the general dentistry procedures pay well. Endo? yup. extractions? yup. crowns/bridges? yup. dentures (ewww)? still yeah. If you can limit your debt, and go into dental school trying to learn as much as you can, general will have the best lifestyle and money, hands down. If you treat the 4-6 years after you graduate dental school as a OMFS residency in terms of how long you are working and your CE courses (implants, advanced endo, blah blah blah), you'll be making bank and have a high salary equal to if not more than than a graduating OMFS who was in your class who did 6 years. graduating omfs starting is between 220k-280k not including bonuses after 4-6 years of 60k pre tax, (36-45k post tax depending on state and other stuff and not including dental school loan repayments).

The general dentist pays off his loan faster, buys into a practice faster, and made more money at a lower tax bracket the than OMFS if he works like he was and OMFS(gotta get that experience and $$), meaning he made more money earlier, at a lower tax bracket (meaning he keeps more of it since it was spread at 140-160k per year 6 years earlier than OMFS starts), that he gets to invest into his practice and the market. the general dentist also has less compounding loan interest. even in down markets, when less patients are coming to the office, the dentist can always spend time doing cases he can do but doesn't in an up market because they took to much time. meaning less referrals outwards towards specialists.

Now lets say this general dentist is still ambitious. He doesn't think where he is good enough and he wants more. He decides to try and expand his practice b/c he's got the money to do it and he has the time to do it as well b/c his new associates bring in cash for his existing practice. He can keep trying to open more practices and eventually stop working b/c he has associates/specialists rolling through his multiple office who can't afford to open their own practices cause they had poor money management skills in dental school and residency. He doesn't even have to be at his office anymore if he makes someone a junior partner at that office and tells them to deal with the daily issues, but still collects cash just driving to his offices, checking up each office for 15 min, and then leaving. Theres a guy outside of Las Vegas Nevada who pretty much just does this with his 23 offices.

Most general dentists don't do this though. They like to enjoy their lives outside of their work. Nothing wrong with that. Thats why they chose dentistry. I believe the majority of general dentists do great. However, a few will end up with a feast or famine. Just a few, but those few that feast really will be taking advantage of those few in the famine. And guess what? In the world of business, thats completely fine.

Again, this route is probably much harder. High risk high reward.

I'll probably write a book on this 20 years from now cause theres a lot more stuff I could talk about but still want to wait to confirm with time.

Anyone, You gotta like it for the procedures. More likely than not, you'll end up unhappy later in your career if you do it for the money. Thats all I'm getting at. General dentist do great. Specialists too. You gotta keep up your diligence/residency from school once you start practicing if you even want a taste of success though whether you specialize or do general.

Seriously though, finish your first two years of dental school first. Limit your debt. Or you will become like one of these unsuccessful dentists. Limiting your debt is the first step to success.

Ya again this is the bright side of the picture that I would take in a heartbeat. I feel it's not taking into account how hard it is to start said practice. I fully agree if dental was how you commented I would feel much better but too many dentists out there say otherwise. I agree it's good out there in some places but the trajectory doesn't seem to be in an upward direction is all

Edit:: would you say the picture you painted represents the average or at least median dentist's trajectory?

 

[Van Der Woude]

average GP owner makes between 180-270k depending on whether they want to own a practice. They works 4 days a week and take 1 month of a vacation a year. Since you are using your anecdotal evidence, I will be using mine. you will be a GP owner faster than an OMFS owner. You get more down time the rest of your life. Pursue the field for reasons other than money. And honestly, I have had many classmates and upperclassmen try and pursue OMFS for the money, and they all did NOT make it. They got cocky in dental school b/c all they did was look at the positives of specializing, but the second they had to sit down, shut up, and read for 8 hours a day and be in preclinic the other 8, you know, the "negatives" with specializing, they stopped because they realized that if they were miserable now, they would be miserable in a residency doing leforts, orthognathic, bilateralostomies, pathology, ludwig's angina, and trauma cases (more negatives for someone like you) when all that you really wanted to learn was just implants and extractions.

My opinion, since you aren't even a D1 yet, the future for all fields is bright but dependent on business climate surroundings and your ability to adapt to adversity. OMFS can do bad and good just like every other field. Also, please go ahead and tell your attending omfs you are only in it for the money. They love hearing that /s. Also, please stop spreading your doom and gloom. You'd honestly be lucky to even graduate from dental school on time, let alone become an OMFS.

 

[Medin2017]

average GP owner makes between 180-270k depending on whether they want to own a practice. They works 4 days a week and take 1 month of a vacation a year. Since you are using your anecdotal evidence, I will be using mine. you will be a GP owner faster than an OMFS owner. You get more down time the rest of your life. Pursue the field for reasons other than money. And honestly, I have had many classmates and upperclassmen try and pursue OMFS for the money, and they all did NOT make it. They got cocky in dental school b/c all they did was look at the positives of specializing, but the second they had to sit down, shut up, and read for 8 hours a day and be in preclinic the other 8, you know, the "negatives" with specializing, they stopped because they realized that if they were miserable now, they would be miserable in a residency doing leforts, orthognathic, bilateralostomies, pathology, ludwig's angina, and trauma cases (more negatives for someone like you) when all that you really wanted to learn was just implants and extractions.

My opinion, since you aren't even a D1 yet, the future for all fields is bright but dependent on business climate surroundings and your ability to adapt to adversity. OMFS can do bad and good just like every other field. Also, please go ahead and tell your attending omfs you are only in it for the money. They love hearing that /s. Also, please stop spreading your doom and gloom. You'd honestly be lucky to even graduate from dental school on time, let alone become an OMFS.

I've made it clear that the "buy in" of studying 24/7 if you aren't a genius + residency is not easy. Never portrayed myself as a shoein for specialties, just that specializing seems to be on average the better decision both financially and from a stability POV. I won't say I'm smart or anything, but I will confidently say that I am not a stranger to hard work and sacrificing things others aren't willing to.

I'm not the one spreading gloom and doom, it's your peers- dentists- that are doing it all the time everywhere. You are in the minority if you're saying the future is bright. If dentists were praising the field or the future of it, this conversation would not be happening. If you interpret it as me spreading doom and gloom, I don't mind. Just passing on the word of the many dentists on dtown, SDN, /r/dentistry, and ones I know that the future isn't rainbows and kisses like some dental school deans or usjobreport top 100 jobs tries to make it out to be.

Obviously wouldn't say I'm doing it for the money (which again is not the only thing I'm stressing). Stability is huge. Plus these are the main variables that change. In the end we're still providing a service for others and doing handwork and all the things that attracted us to the field of dentistry. Would you do dentistry if the hours were poor and the money was < 100k? If not, then don't try to take the highground man. Most people in dentistry picked it over medicine for autonomy, lifestyle, and solid income. Unless you believe every predent/dental student somehow has a tooth fetish? Like literally why else would we be in dentistry other than the above factors + being able to serve patients and work with our hands?

 

[Van Der Woude]

You just had many practicing dentists and a practicing omfs from above tell you the field of GP is fine. The omfs even said there is a negative bias on forums and what people say about being a GP.

I once had a proctologist tell me he didn't understand why people wanted to be dentists. I am now going to do now what I did then:

*Smile.* *Nods.*

Have a nice day Medin! I appreciate all of the insight you have given me!

 

[Medin2017]

I appreciate your positive outlook on dentistry since most people are saying otherwise. Hopefully less informed predents or dental students read this discussion and make their own informed decision on the topic. The insight is not for you but for those people who think dentistry is an easy 200k + 4 day work week (which you assume is the case for most but is definitely not so among new graduates).

Also what you call "insight" is actually just reading many many posts by disgruntled dentists or successful dentists who believe the future is not as bright as others make it out to be. For all you predents out there, make an account on dentaltown after taking the DAT and see for yourself. Don't ask your neighborhood dentist who opened 10-40 years ago and is working 3 days a week and making 400k a year. There is always 2 sides of the story.

 

[Van Der Woude]

Please refer back to example 2 and 3 in my first post. I will let you have the last laugh since I gain nothing from you believing me. You do you, friend.

 

[Medin2017]

Noted. But you make decisions with the knowledge you have on hand. No one can predict if suddenly something that seemed good and had a bright future went to ****. Just like we chose dentistry because we knew it was a decent job with aspects we enjoy at the time of making the decision. If suddenly dentists made <90k a year, it doesn't change that fact.

We can, however, avoid or be wary of things that have a mediocre or less positive future. That's a smarter decision imo.

 

[Steins;Gate]

average GP owner makes between 180-270k depending on whether they want to own a practice

Average GP or average GP owner? Wouldn't it be assumed that GP owners own a practice and not whether or not they want to own a practice?

 

[distressstudent]

Average GP or average GP owner? Wouldn't it be assumed that GP owners own a practice and not whether or not they want to own a practice?

Average dentists earn upward of 120k depending on whether or not they want to practice dentistry

 

[wengerout]

There is a good chance you will be practicing in your field for 25-40 years after graduation. I strongly recommend money not be in the top 3 reasons to pursue a specialty. If you do, you will be miserable. Make sure you find the procedures enjoyable.

"screw off van der woude, i want that doctor life style"

Lol, ok, you guys asked for it. Time to break out the stats and examples of why money should not be a factor when choosing a specialty:

example 1: Orthodontics was once a field where just graduating guaranteed you bank. Every kid back in the day saw this and said "i want to be an orthodontist." More and more people start applying ortho. Schools notice this trend. They start thinking they can open up more programs and charge. Now, I see young orthodontists graduating with 600k-800k of debt between 6-8% at age 30. Starting salaries for these guys is 150-200k. "But Mr. Woude, they could start their own practice and make a million a year!" Hahahaha. Starting practices takes money and time. Neither of which the ortho will have when his/her loans accrue 49k in the starting year. More young orthos travelling office to office means less $$ for the private practice owner orthos. A lot of these guys complain they were expecting more. This type of orthodontist would have been better off fiscally if he became a general practitioner worked 3 years making 120-150k, eliminating his dental school loans, and then take a bank loan at 3-5% for a practice. He could then have invested whatever money he had left in the market at 6-7% and have made 1% a year extra in cash by extending his practice loan payments to 30 years instead of 15(what people in the business world consider free money). He could have then invested even more money and earned 7% a year. These numbers are hypothetical but very likely and realistically to show up in your future.

example 2: There are always "desirable and profitable" fields and "non-desierable and non-profitable" fields that switch every few decades. For example, Ophtomology was one of the "desirable and profitable fields" of medicine 1990s. Cushy lifestyle, more bills than a flock of flamingos. Then they drastically decreased reimbursement rates. A very close family friend who graduate from an ophthalmology residency back in the day said that in 1996, cataract surgery for a single patient were $1800-$2000 dependent on coding. That decreased to $300 within 10 years. If your in it for the money, and this **** happened to you... you'd be the most miserable guy on the planet. This is an example of a "desirable field" becoming undesirable. Pathology, a medical specialty, just lost 75% of its medicaid/medicare reimbursement rate in most of its procedures from 2013 to 2016. Lots of private practice pathology labs closed and now even new grads are having hard times finding long term employment. Imagine if your future specialty's reimbursement rate dropped. You missed funerals, parties, gym time, sleep, kid's games to do your best for YEARS and all for naught cause things outside of your control decided to take away one of your motivating factors for entering the field.

Example 3: The opposite of example 2 in which a non-desirable field becomes desirable. Years ago, Orthopedic surgery used to be a place for jocks, dinguses, and what the rest of the medical community considered "*****s" who just used to amputate legs. Now it is probably one of the most competitive fields in medicine due to all of the different procedures and materials they do/use. Also, their reimbursement is incredibly high. Who's to say this won't happen to prosth as more and more people are to busy trying to learn implant placement than they are trying to make dentures?

Example 4: you are working as an OMFS in a already saturated area but still are doing fine but don't take call at a hospital or are even affilated with one. You just do simple implants and extractions in your office. Then one guy from an implant fellowship comes and starts working for the people that once referred to you and undercuts your prices. The owners now get to keep some of the cash and you have to spend more time in the hospital doing what you think are "undesirable" procedures b/c they don't pay as well. This same stuff happened to Roseendo a studentdoctor forum user and an endodontist, when a new grad that loved doing endo was hired by a referring general dentist. "oh no Mr. Woude, that type of stuff won't happen to me or the field I choose, so I am still going to do it for the money." Listen guys, it happens to someone. What makes you think it won't happen to you? All it takes is one mistake to lose your footing on your climb to the top of success mountain. And you will definitely lose your footing if you don't take the advice of someone who's already climbed it.

Please take notes my fellow impressionable dental students who have never taken a legitimate business class in their lives and probably haven't made effective cost/benefit ratios before. If you are accepted into dental school, you will be successful if you practice what you love b/c you are already in a high paying field. I know general dentists that do it all and are excellent at their work, and are probably the most successful type of dentists around. They have endodontists and oral surgeons coming to their office to work for them! The general dentist takes a cut and has no liability! Amazing business decision IMO. If you plan on specializing, do it cause you like those procedures more than any other procedures and are willing to give these "other" procedures up. It is impossible to say what are "desirable/profitable" and "undesirable/unprofitable" fields b/c they will change by the time you become a 4th year dental student and by the time you actually graduate from a residency and probably one more time after you ill-advisedly bought that new beach house. The money you make will change dependent on your practice setting, local competition, average household income around your practice, and down markets.

TL;DR: Money is fluctuant in healthcare. sometimes its there, other times its not.

Many dental students ask "should I pursue this specialty cause it has $$?"
What you should start asking yourself instead are the following:
1) "Am I interested in this specialty enough to dedicate 35 years to it, even if the money dries up?" and
2) "Do I have enough money in my account currently and enough time in my future to pursue this specialty??".

Thank you for this! It's still early days for me and I am going to give each specialty a good look but sometimes the lure of OMFS is hard to ignore (Especially at schools where they turn them out like clockwork).

 

[wengerout]

I feel all your scenarios are what ifs while there are actual 100% issues in general dental that are hitting every city (saturation, corporation, even dental therapists and other bs like that). A scarier and likely higher probability what if scenario is being a general dentist and only working under associates because you can't find a place to open up, making <150k for >1 year. Or slaving at a corporate office to improve speed because you don't want to go super rural. IDK jack right now since I'm an entering D1, but I much would rather chase a specialty and then go general if I so desire than be some of the dentists I read about on dtown who regretted not scoring higher grades and doing poorly as a general dentist and unable to go back into a specialty.

Secondly just look around SDN itself. There are few omfs on here but they all seem to say moneys easy and they love their job. This is definitely not the case with general dentistry (other than tanman coldfront and that guy with the 5 year ama), where people are much more vocal about doom and gloom.

Chasing money alone is stupid of course, but there are other factors (stability, lack of saturation because residencies are an actual bottleneck unlike orthodontic schools/dental schools) you get as an omfs that you would lack as a general dentist.

To be fair, OMFS (and to an extent dentistry as well) is one government law away from making a whole lot less money.

 

[Medin2017]

To be fair, OMFS (and to an extent dentistry as well) is one government law away from making a whole lot less money.

True but then the whole field is effed by then

 

[Manic324]

To be fair, OMFS (and to an extent dentistry as well) is one government law away from making a whole lot less money.

What do you mean by that?

 

[wengerout]

What do you mean by that?

Let's say ACA is repealed and in a decade Medicare for all is passed. In that scenario provider rates are effectively determined by the government. You can take a look at most other single-payer systems and see this will result in a significant reduction in earnings.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[anonyperson]

Look, OMS has it great once they graduate. Even the capitation insurnces (free work for the rest) only give people a discount at the oral surgeon.

The training is hell, and the gravy train they ride after residency is 100% earned.

I think OS is at the least risk of any issues. Even if you have to go to hospital cases more, yes they work longer and pay less than 2k for taking 20 minutes to drop that implant. But you will still make thousands for that days work.

The future of endo is really a good question. Currently still seeing a number of well paying endo jobs in our saturated city (1 -3k a day)

In that same route, the new endo that comes to one of our offices moved here from Florida because she said it was a nightmare and impossible for her down there anymore.

 

[DMOMFS]

NOTICE: You do not need to be a specialist to do specialist procedures. The first thing they tell you at implant courses offered as part of your curriculum and in CE is that implant companies want general dentists to start placing implants, even if they are not at as good. More people that can place implants means the implant companies get more money. And the ADA is of course going to help the majority of its constituents, IE general dentists, get more money. Even endo has become easier for general dentists with the creation of rotary instrumentation. These people still get paid though, and quite handsomely if they learn effectively. If you LEARN the material you will do fine even as a "general dentist".

Also, you say that some dental students are trapped as associates? Some specialists are too, if they take out to much loans pursuing dental school. Hypothetically (lets say NYU), you graduate with 400k in debt. I'll even be generous and won't calculate the accrued interested at the end NYU dental school. Then you enter a tuitioned endo residency at 300k total.

I don't have sympathy for this guy b/c he is thinking how you are thinking right now. That specializing== money. It doesn't. Just being a specialist doesn't mean money. You have to continue working hard if you want money. go look through localnative's post history if you need more evidence. that man WORKS, and he graduated from his residency years ago. There was even a thread recently about vell talking about how he doesn't even have time to feed his cat. i'm sure you'll figure it out after you enter dental school.

and OMFS, easy money? Talk to some residents dude. They will all tell you the only reason they survived is cause they loved their field. I am sure getting a call on christmas to come in for a ludwig's angina case is not to some people's fancy. Neither is graduating above age 30 and getting paid 60k a year for 4-6 years, maybe less with tuition while some of their friends are chilling on some beach in the mediterranean. I bet that 10 hour path case was a pain too. The reason OMFS is a bottleneck is b/c its a hard life, and dental students are lazy pieces of crap and most are to burnt out to learn more after dental school.
Also, in OMFS private practice, a majority of your salary relies on extractions and implant referrals. If you think that reimbursement rates for extractions will remain the same for the rest of your life, you will almost definitely be in for a rude awakening in the future.

I personally hope to be an OMFS. but not b/c of the money. its because it has the coolest procedures and the most amazing colleagues. I'd rather do a lefort than crowns and dentures for the rest of my life.

Anyway, I hope you survive your first two years of dental school, young blood. If you survive the culling, i'll buy you a beer.

You should both remember that if(when) s#!¥ hits the fan with GPs placing implants (no matter how many letters related to ICOI or board certified implantologist and what not) they will be judge as specialists and will likely face specialists with the defense.

Another thing is the community really really looks down upon specialists going to GP offices. Plus, why would you want to give such a big percentage of your income to a GP who doesn’t have the training nor the liability?!? Dentistry has become that way though. No loyalty! And trust me, that also goes for the traveling perio/OS/endo... they will willingly leave the GP office if they find a better one!
Not all change is progress. In my opinion, dentistry should go back to the way it was. GPs open shops, do fillings, crowns and bridges, dentures/partials, SRPs, some endos, maybe Invisalign... if you do it well, that’s plenty of work! Specialists are there for a reason! And GPs are better off creating a good relationship with for example an OS or an endo and refer them cases, because trust me, once they notice they only receive the occasional emergencies coming from that office, they’ll start saying they don’t have time in their schedule.

 

[Localnative]

You should both remember that if(when) s#!¥ hits the fan with GPs placing implants (no matter how many letters related to ICOI or board certified implantologist and what not) they will be judge as specialists and will likely face specialists with the defense.

Another thing is the community really really looks down upon specialists going to GP offices. Plus, why would you want to give such a big percentage of your income to a GP who doesn’t have the training nor the liability?!? Dentistry has become that way though. No loyalty! And trust me, that also goes for the traveling perio/OS/endo... they will willingly leave the GP office if they find a better one!
Not all change is progress. In my opinion, dentistry should go back to the way it was. GPs open shops, do fillings, crowns and bridges, dentures/partials, SRPs, some endos, maybe Invisalign... if you do it well, that’s plenty of work! Specialists are there for a reason! And GPs are better off creating a good relationship with for example an OS or an endo and refer them cases, because trust me, once they notice they only receive the occasional emergencies coming from that office, they’ll start saying they don’t have time in their schedule.

You're living in the Stone Ages, bud. You do what you need to in order to provide for your family (five mouths in my case). Need to consider the economics of dentistry in your locale. Sometimes hanging a shingle is not feasible.

 

[kingme23]

You should both remember that if(when) s#!¥ hits the fan with GPs placing implants (no matter how many letters related to ICOI or board certified implantologist and what not) they will be judge as specialists and will likely face specialists with the defense.

Another thing is the community really really looks down upon specialists going to GP offices. Plus, why would you want to give such a big percentage of your income to a GP who doesn’t have the training nor the liability?!? Dentistry has become that way though. No loyalty! And trust me, that also goes for the traveling perio/OS/endo... they will willingly leave the GP office if they find a better one!
Not all change is progress. In my opinion, dentistry should go back to the way it was. GPs open shops, do fillings, crowns and bridges, dentures/partials, SRPs, some endos, maybe Invisalign... if you do it well, that’s plenty of work! Specialists are there for a reason! And GPs are better off creating a good relationship with for example an OS or an endo and refer them cases, because trust me, once they notice they only receive the occasional emergencies coming from that office, they’ll start saying they don’t have time in their schedule.

You’re entitled to your opinion, but there are thousands of doctors that disagree with you. I agree this is not the stone ages anymore, some GPs actually receive further training and are capable of more than drill and fill. Hell I have an easier time at this point taking out a set of erupted 3rds than I do some class IIs. Cutting off your referral sources sounds like a real good way to get the community to look down on you. I understand the frustration, but that’s what you signed up for when you decided to become a specialist.

 

[Van Der Woude]

Might be time to just end this thread. Its the same old "dental student arguing nonsense with established clinicians and thinking they have more anecdotal evidence to support it than the opposition." Its getting aggravating.

 

[kingme23]

Might be time to just end this thread. Its the same old "dental student arguing nonsense with established clinicians and thinking they have more anecdotal evidence to support it than the opposition." Its getting aggravating.

How are you so sure? The most recent replies have been by what seem to be practicing doctors.

 

[Endo16]

Pick specialty based on what you love, and you will be fine. Each specialty has it's own pros and cons. You will do great regardless. The best source to make your decision is attending annual AAE and AAOMS meetings. Here is the link to AAE annual meeting at Denver: https://www.aae.org/specialty/education-events/aae-annual-meeting/

 

[Tooth_spectator]

Might be time to just end this thread. Its the same old "dental student arguing nonsense with established clinicians and thinking they have more anecdotal evidence to support it than the opposition." Its getting aggravating.

How’d everything turn out? Still pursuing OMFS?