Normalization vs Isodose Line Prescription

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Honestly aren't they safer/better for functional stuff compared to micro mlc?

That's debatable. There's also a question of whether you should always use rigid head frames for things like trigeminal neuralgia. This can be done on linac based setups as well.

This boils down to:

Gammaknife is sort of one elegant gold standard solution for brain lesions. The new debate there is in frameless and fractionated with the Ikon system.

In comparison, there is a lot of variation, limited data, and belief in linac based SRS setups that complicates the discussion.

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Also found that MLC 5mm vs 3 mm and cones have very small dosimetric effects, especially when you are treating more than one lesion simultaneously.

It seems that changing the collimater orientation between arcs/beams really offsets potential advantage of 3mm mlcs/cones etc.


with vmat and multiple lesions even with high deff collimator, only the central part of the collimators are high deff so lesions may not "see" high deff collimator for much of treatment.
 
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That's debatable. There's also a question of whether you should always use rigid head frames for things like trigeminal neuralgia. This can be done on linac based setups as well.

This boils down to:

Gammaknife is sort of one elegant gold standard solution for brain lesions. The new debate there is in frameless and fractionated with the Ikon system.

In comparison, there is a lot of variation, limited data, and belief in linac based SRS setups that complicates the discussion.

Are you insinuating GK-SRS is the only thing that we should provide to patients? Or that Linac-based SRS is inferior in comparison?
 
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The limited... and always retrospective... GK vs linac comparisons have never compellingly hinted at any significant clinical differences in any disease site IMHO.
 
Someone in my group sent me that paper. Here was my response. The quotes are from the paper, bold is my emphasis.

Given the limitations and toxicity of whole brain radiation therapy, extending the paradigm of focal therapy to patients who are not single-fraction stereotactic radiosurgery candidates, due to size or location, represents an important clinical challenge.

I agree with this. For patients with tumors over 4 cm (some argue over 3 cm, especially in sensitive locations), it’s a gray area what to do with them as they’re no longer eligible for GK. I use FSRT for large tumors or cavities greater than 4 cm, which is the gray area currently.

Hence from the methods:

The decision to utilize FSRT was individualized and based on physician preference, but FSRT was generally considered if a tumor was 3 cm or greater in diameter, near a critical or eloquent structure, or if the proximity of moderately sized tumors would lead to dose bridging in a single-fraction SRS plan

That is reasonable. But we still don’t really know if this works. It lacks prospective or comparative data. This is one of a handful of single institution retrospective series. Even the authors are not suggesting this as a replacement for radiosurgery for suitable patients. The summary:

Only 12 patients were able to be followed for 1 year, which resulted in a 33% risk of toxicity among this cohort. The limited follow up in this study makes estimation of the true CNS toxicity somewhat challenging. Larger target size was associated with an increased risk of toxicity; however, we recognize that the small number of events limited the analytic power to identify other possible contributing factors. There may be a tumor size above which treatment with 30 Gy increases the risk of toxicity, necessitating use of a lower dose, but this potential size cutoff remains unknown. We did not observe increased toxicity rates among patients who were prescribed 30 Gy compared with those prescribed 25 Gy in contrast to other reports of higher rates of toxicity with higher doses.18, 28 One possible explanation for the favorable toxicity profile in our study despite dose escalation is the limited follow up and survival of our cohort, which potentially underestimates the toxicity of FSRT as radiation necrosis is often a late effect. An additional explanation for the favorable toxicity profile in the study is that the majority of patients were treated without additional PTV margin, since higher toxicity rates have been suggested with larger margins for patients receiving single-fraction SRS.29 Initial concern for rotational error in treating multiple metastases with a single isocenter resulted in the addition of a PTV margin to some targets; however, the installation of a 6 degree of freedom couch essentially eliminated the potentially observed rotational error making zero margin treatments consistently reproducible.

I think this area is ripe for a multi-institutional prospective trial. When it happens it will be for the patients with the selection criteria above. Extending FSRT to all patients brain mets is not accepted in the larger CNS community in the current or near future.
 
Someone in my group sent me that paper. Here was my response. The quotes are from the paper, bold is my emphasis.



I agree with this. For patients with tumors over 4 cm (some argue over 3 cm, especially in sensitive locations), it’s a gray area what to do with them as they’re no longer eligible for GK. I use FSRT for large tumors or cavities greater than 4 cm, which is the gray area currently.

Hence from the methods:



That is reasonable. But we still don’t really know if this works. It lacks prospective or comparative data. This is one of a handful of single institution retrospective series. Even the authors are not suggesting this as a replacement for radiosurgery for suitable patients. The summary:



I think this area is ripe for a multi-institutional prospective trial. When it happens it will be for the patients with the selection criteria above. Extending FSRT to all patients brain mets is not accepted in the larger CNS community in the current or near future.
I agree a trial would be nice, but I dont see it happening.
For the same (tumorcidal) BED, fractionation will always be safer, or for the same late effect (BED) you can always give higher tumorcidal dose with fractionation. Single fraction treatment evolved for malignancy only because of invasive frames, which we are now abandoning. I believe some of the early stereotactic treatments involved multiple fractions, but obviously that proved impractical- patient had to be overnight with head frame

for alpha/beta 2: 20 Gy x 1; BED= 220 11Gy x 3 alpha/Beta 2: BED: 214
alpha/beta 10 20Gy x1 ; BED= 60 11 Gy x3 alpha/beta 10 BED: 69


so 11 Gy x 3 gives you better tumor control and safer than 20 Gy x1; The doses used in fractionated regimens right now have lower tumorcidal bed s than 20 Gy x 1, because they are used with margin and for larger tumors.

6 gy x 5 is roughly equivalent in terms of late effects to 14 x1, although it has a superior BED for tumor
 
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IMHO, it not kosher to bring up BED model for > 8 Gy per fraction
 
true, but whatever model you want, fractionation is beneficial for malignancy in that you can go to higher tumorcidal dose/less late side effects
 
I'm just saying there is no good way to convert SRS doses into standard fractionation equivalents.
 
IMHO, it not kosher to bring up BED model for > 8 Gy per fraction
totes kosher imho, the cell surv curves for almost all all cell lines studied have been followed out to 20 Gy/1 fx range. This "BED invalid for large fx sizes" feeling is kind of urban legend-y just in respect to: what's your other theory/model with equal or better prediction value and/or data? We haven't one.
 
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Sure. I'm one of those people. A tiny met doesn't really need IMRT. Just do open fields with MLC border at target edge. There are minimal, clinically inconsequential dosimetric differences with 5mm leaves vs 3mm leaves vs 2 mm leaves vs cones in the vast majority of cases. That is to say, I can show you a plan, and you wouldn't be able to tell if it was a 5mm MLC or cone based in most cases.

* technically (early) Cyberknife is linac SRS without IMRT e.g.

I agree. A small, round target can be treated for example with a static arc. No beam modulation required. The linac basically turns up to 360 degrees around the target with the same geometry of the MLCs and delivers the dose at a constant rate.
It works well if the metastasis is small and not irregularly configurated. With increasing size V10 and V12 constraint can become however hard to meet. And you cannot spare any organ at risk which is on one side of your target, so if you are treating a target in the cerebellum next to the brainstem, this may not be the optimal technique.
 
Anyone willing to share the details of how they immobilize/sim pts for frameless radiosurgery.
 
Novalis system where I trained uses front and back reinforced thermaplast mask at time of CT sim, infrared reflectors on the mask with IR camera for treatment, and crossfire x-rays to verify position at time of treatment. MRI fusion to CT.
 
GK had a bite block system and others have used them for linac based. We tried it out with GK but didn't like it...
Never knew that even existed for GK.

When I trained we just used the standard frame with screws, not sure why you would need a bite block for GK, makes more sense to me needing that in linac frameless based setup with an aquaplast type mask
 
Can you share these papers? Classically, linear-quadratic equation did not fit with in vivo and in vitro data > 8 Gy.

totes kosher imho, the cell surv curves for almost all all cell lines studied have been followed out to 20 Gy/1 fx range. This "BED invalid for large fx sizes" feeling is kind of urban legend-y just in respect to: what's your other theory/model with equal or better prediction value and/or data? We haven't one.
 
I've also heard of bite block systems for head immobilization? I trained on a GK...

We preferentially use Bite Block immobilization. If no or poor dentition we'll do a thermoplastic mask, or our neurosurgical colleagues can assist with scalp screw placement for affixation of a temporary, removable frame.
 
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Can you share these papers? Classically, linear-quadratic equation did not fit with in vivo and in vitro data > 8 Gy.
not super interested in doing a lit search but look at Figs 5.12 and 5.13 e.g. in fifth ed of Hall. Mouse jejunal cells and HeLa cells, treated with doses from 0-20 and 0-30+ Gy. Cell surv curves track perfectly all the way through the dose ranges. These are in vitro obviously. See Fig 3.9, another cell surv curve graph. Cells ranging from neuroblastoma to normal ovary to colon to glioblastoma... all track perfectly with modeled LQ curves from 0-14 Gy.

So as I said, we (not me) may say that the LQ is invalid >8 Gy, but there's reasonable data that it's valid; and also, there is no other model we have which gives us testable cell death predictions at these doses.
 
I havent read the papers but in that second one the abstract said "Both for lung and brain data, the LQ model provided a significantly better fit over the entire range of treatment doses than did any of the models requiring extra terms at high doses." I don't find that the least bit surprising. It's a pretty good model, all things considered. It's simple, unlike some other modeling schemas. There's no other way for a cell to die from radiation damage (in the 0-30 Gy range I guess) than DNA damage, and that is understandable and it's random, and hence mathematical. Not mysterious. There's a vast biological milieu at work, but still PROBABLY it's DNA damage from radiation that does the heavy lifting in giving tumor LC.
 
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I feel that with CBCT and a very rigid facemask and compliant patient, the overall total intrafraction max 3D error stays <2 mm the vast (>99%) majority (a 1 mm shift left, up, and in equals a 1.7 mm 3D shift) of the time, making it a viable solution for the vast majority of "simple" SRSs for brain met patients e.g. I have confirmed this due to years of a personal latent fear that shifts were surreptitiously happening, and kind therapists willing to humor me with multiple reconfirmation CBCTs during a course of treatment after the first initial setup CBCT. BTW, don't bore yourself with the latter: it's very anti-climactic.
 
Looking for opinions on how others would prefer to treat with linac based VMAT SRS/FSRS a patient with two brain mets both just below 2cm diameter, physician wants 2mm margin, total volume for both PTVs about 13cc, about 5cm apart but in the same transverse plane not near any critical structures. Treat them together? Separate? Single or fractionated? Dose limited by V12 dose volume?

ETA what constraints do you use for skull dose?
 
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I wouldn't treat that with 2 mm margin. You'd be increasing V12/RT necrosis risk for no benefit. IMO that must not be a very good linac SRS setup if that kind of margin is necessary.
 
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I wouldn't treat that with 2 mm margin. You'd be increasing V12/RT necrosis risk for no benefit. IMO that must not be a very good linac SRS setup if that kind of margin is necessary.

I appreciate your reply and comment on the margin size (I’m just the physicist). We actually have a 6D couch on our TrueBeam... Margin size aside, any option on the other aspects of this patient’s treatment?
 
I think 1-2 mm is fine if you fractionate- 8/9 gy x 3.
In my experience, the biologically equivalent v12 (6.5 x3) is often less with 1-2 mm margin with fracionation than if you treated with a single fraction and no margin. I have treated this situation with single isocenter vmat. try to get fall off to 5-7 mm to 50% / no bridging of 50% between lessions

Kind of beat this to death, but I think fusion is biggest source of error. Even for GK, at ASTRO this year, princress margaret had some slides on notable mri distortion error for GK- and how they were getting 1-2mm error with 3T magnet, and now use 1.5 T for GK.
 
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I think 1-2 mm is fine if you fractionate- 8/9 gy x 3.
In my experience, the biologically equivalent v12 (6.5 x3) is often less with 1-2 mm margin with fracionation than if you treated with a single fraction and no margin. I have treated this situation with single isocenter vmat. try to get fall off to 5-7 mm to 50% / no bridging of 50% between lessions

Kind of beat this to death, but I think fusion is biggest source of error. Even for GK, at ASTRO this year, princress margaret had some slides on notable mri distortion error for GK- and how they were getting 1-2mm error with 3T magnet, and now use 1.5 T for GK.

Appreciate the advice! What about skull dose (single fraction vs fractionated)? One lesion is very close to the skull.
 
I have never had an issue or considered skull dose.
 
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Looking for opinions on how others would prefer to treat with linac based VMAT SRS/FSRS a patient with two brain mets both just below 2cm diameter, physician wants 2mm margin, total volume for both PTVs about 13cc, about 5cm apart but in the same transverse plane not near any critical structures. Treat them together? Separate? Single or fractionated? Dose limited by V12 dose volume?

ETA what constraints do you use for skull dose?

5cm apart even in the same transverse plane is pretty significant IMO to not do a two-isocenter technique for these 2 brain mets. You could do an iso in the middle and half-beam block your arcs but I see that more for smaller separation distances. I think 2mm is fine, ideally do 8-9Gy x 3. Would shoot for V18 < 30cc per Minitti paper of normal brain. Up to your institution how 'normal brain' is defined (Full brain auto contour or brain - GTV)?

No constraints on skull dose for SRS. I'd push any higher dose areas more into the bone than into the skull.
 
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also wanted to point out from planning perspective there is a degradation in the plan when you have 2 separate plans as opposed to single isocenter and one plan.

The V12/V18 should be 1)per lesion and 2)brain-gtv , but havent read the minitti paper.
 
also wanted to point out from planning perspective there is a degradation in the plan when you have 2 separate plans as opposed to single isocenter and one plan.

The V12/V18 should be 1)per lesion and 2)brain-gtv , but havent read the minitti paper.

The bolded is not well defined in the literature from my review of it previously. I think most people do use brain - gtv for consideration, however. Not fully discussed in the Minitti paper IIRC.

What do you mean by 'degradation in the plan'?
 
the plan is worse- because you have less degrees of freedom going from first to second plan.
 
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the plan is worse- because you have less degrees of freedom going from first to second plan.

I did a bunch of different plans and I’d have to agree with you this for this case... best was a single iso treating both simultaneously. Ended up with a Paddick gradient index less than 3 following Univ. of Alabama planning techniques

Do you have an upper limit for how hot you allow your target volume to get? Seems like people have widely varying opinions on this as well...
 
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UAB does not seem to restrict hot spots- but I dont think that they use a margin. It seems from experience that there is often a diminishing return ( in fall off) around 30% hot spots, (if treating only several mets) so that is what we arbitrarily limit it to, but I am not sure this is the right approach. (If you are treating 10+ mets, you may need to relax your hot spot to 40+% )

If hot spot is well within the gtv, there shouldnt be a problem. Obviously, if you use a margin, try not to have hot spots in the ptv-gtv.

Hot spots help create fall off, so it very well may be that by restricting the hot spot to say 30% point, the computer says "fine, I wont give you a 35% hot spot, but I will make the volume of 30% hot spot larger"
 
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I did a bunch of different plans and I’d have to agree with you this for this case... best was a single iso treating both simultaneously. Ended up with a Paddick gradient index less than 3 following Univ. of Alabama planning techniques

Do you have an upper limit for how hot you allow your target volume to get? Seems like people have widely varying opinions on this as well...

The GK people will say that a 200% hotspot is fine since the prescribe to the 50% isodose line all the time.

For most linac based systems, people should be OK with a 125% hotspot (equal to prescribing to 80% isodose line). Some attendings want lower (say 115%), and that just ends up making their plans less conformal.
 
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One (we!) should strive to use "inhomogeneity" or "max dose" or "dose maximum" or whatever instead of "hot spot," unless you literally put "hot spot" in quotes in your writing. And then, with quotes, you really don't mean hot spot (so that's fine... I guess). If you REALLY mean hot spot non-ironically, i.e. an area >100% dose outside the target volume, fine. Else, it's like what Inigo Montoya told Vizzini: "You keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means." In speaking, I have found it's hard/exhausting to use quotation marks, so I very much avoid saying "hot spot" in that circumstance :)
 
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