"Non-traditional" MD/PhD Applicants Support/Introductions

[Coclean]

Can all the "Non-traditional" (I personally do not enjoy that term) MD/PhD students, prospectives, and applicants introduce themselves and share their stories here??

I would post this in the Non-trad forum, but in all honestly applying MD vs MD/PhD is just so different.

So, I neeeeddd this thread because I am starting to feel rather disillusioned and hopeless about my prospects and the winding road I am taking to MD/PhD. I'd like to know what other cool people are out there!

My story: I am 24 now, have an MSPH that I got right out of undergraduate and am now working in infectious disease basic science and epidemiology research in Peru (Iquitos)....I will be here until the end of 2008 (and the praying that papers work out is such a stresser when you have developing world control over things!) and then I have committed to volunteer with the Peace Corps (I was already acceted and defferred to stay on in Peru for another year and finish things)....its something that I have to do or I won't know who I am any more, simply put.....it is also probably rather important to my future goals as I intend to do infectious disease research (PhD immunology) and angle toward establishing real research programs in the developing world (and not being paid very much). But I will be 28 when I apply...about 35/36+ when I graduate with MD/PhD (assuming I get accepted) and somewhere just over 40 when I finish residencies and fellowships....and I worry that i will not be an attractive applicant because of my age, and that my application will not be perfect numbers wise (not bad, but not a 3.9 BCPM or anything). I have no doubts that MD/PhD is both what I WANT to do, and what I NEED to do in order to be the best that I can be in serving my future goals, and the communities in which I hope to work.

Who else is out there? And how are you dealing with the stress? Or hopefully, what is the major success story you have to share? Thanks all.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Jorje286]

There have been "old" people p) that were accepted into MSTP's. You can try searching in mdapplicants for more info and the real number of admitted applicants is certainly much higher.

Is it harder to get in? Yes. Impossible and not worth a try? Absolutely no. Especially if you can make an excellent case for it, and seemingly you can, because you know exactly what you want to do with your career.

 

[Coclean]

yeah, I searched on MDapplicants and there are not that many (under 10 who qualify for the title in my opinion). But I know there are some on SDN....so that's my plea!

 

[QofQuimica]

I agree with Jorje--it won't be impossible for you to apply successfully in your late 20s, but it will be harder. Schools will never admit to having an anti-age bias, of course, but there is so much subjectivity in medical school admissions that it is no problem for them to get away with blatant age discrimination. It is probably even worse for you as an MD/PhD applicant than it was for me as a straight-MD applicant. (I applied at age 30 already having my PhD.)

My suggestions for you:

1) Take care of the numbers. This is huge. You absolutely, positively *must* have good grades and MCAT scores if you want to be competitive. Lower-than-average stats is a huge Achilles' heel for many nontrads. If you don't have the grades and test scores to keep up with the college kids, you'll have a higher chance of being screened out.

2) Apply broadly. This is good advice for anyone, but older applicants in particular should try to avoid having their heart set on one particular school unless a move is unavoidable for family or other reasons. Some of the top research-oriented schools have more of a history of taking nontrads compared to others. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't apply to some of the "young" programs, but just be aware that you're not their usual target audience, and they may not be as willing to take a chance on you. If I were in your shoes, I'd include some non-MSTP MD/PhD programs on your list, and maybe even some MD-only programs as a backup if your numbers aren't stellar. Getting into med school is the hard part, so keep that in mind. If you can just get a med school seat, many schools will let you tack on the PhD once you're there. This is usually *not* the case for grad students in a PhD-only program, so going MD-only is preferable to going PhD-only if your goal is to eventually earn both degrees.

3) Don't be self-defeating. You only need one school to give you a fighting chance, not dozens of them. If you are determined to make it, strategic about putting together your strongest possible app, and you choose your schools wisely, there is no reason why you shouldn't reach your goals in the end. Refusing to give up after a setback is the biggest predictor of future success, IMHO.

Best of to you.

 

[Harlow]

Yeah, I'm 25 and was told by an administrator at an MSTP that it would not be a good move to EMPHASIZE the fact that I was 25 (i.e. trying to spin it that I'm somehow more mature and have some additional life experience compared to your straight out of undergrad 22 year old). This doesn't mean not to emphasize your accomplishments and experiences, just minimize linking it with your age.

 

[magwi11]

Yeah, I'm 25 and was told by an administrator at an MSTP that it would not be a good move to EMPHASIZE the fact that I was 25 (i.e. trying to spin it that I'm somehow more mature and have some additional life experience compared to your straight out of undergrad 22 year old). This doesn't mean not to emphasize your accomplishments and experiences, just minimize linking it with your age.

I'm also 25 and heard something similar. Just play up your strengths, have a good answer for the questions that they are going to ask you about "starting on such a long course of study/career path later than many of your peers" and use what you've learned in all those cool things you got to do along the way. And for the love of God, apply broadly.

 

[meowkat444]

hey--glad you started this thread. congrats on the peace corps! it's funny that "non-trad" for mstp is significantly younger than for MD. that being said, i did meet a few applicants out there who were pushing 30, and i know that some of them got into great programs. i can think of one on here that is a great guy with several acceptances--i won't call him out here in case people don't generally know, but i'll pm him and see if maybe he wants to post or message you

i will be 25 when i start mstp, having taken 3 years off to teach high school with teach for america--this is not as old as you will be, obviously, but there are some similarities because i spent years outside of science/medicine as well. i wasn't premed in undergrad, and didn't even know about md/phd programs until after college. actually, i think that it's ok to accentuate your life experience and maturity because it will help you in programs that appreciate that, and you will ultimately fit better in those places anyway. did it hurt me at some schools? possibly--i'll probably never know why i didn't get considered at some of the places, but i have a sneaking suspicion that, for example, johns hopkins isn't too crazy about people that have been out doing "random" stuff for a few years. on the other hand, i actually preferred the programs that respected those experiences--it does become an issue of fit, and it means a lot to me that a program appreciates my varied experiences and sees that as an asset rather than a distracter. there are a few programs that really appreciate maturity and life experiences--i found the interviewers, students, and program directors are yale and stanford to be especially considerate in this regard, as well at ucla (director there is a peace corps alum, actually, and is super awesome), mt sinai, and rochester.

good luck!

 

[Coclean]

Hi guys. Thanks for the comments and support. Just so ya'll know I am pretty confident about my application, but I am just tired of the haters and think it might be nice to know who else is out there and what there reasons were for getting the stigma of being a "non-trad". I have one grade (a c in a non-prereq that I could explain away but don't really care to) which is my weakspot and my MCAT score is over 40 (recently found out! thank goodness..I'll post how soon). I really just want to know who else is out there whether they are comfortable posting or want to PM (though, I don't think age is a reason to be a recluse).

Congrats meowkat you have some great acceptances, it is very very nice to know that you are out there!

But, so that people know, Hopkins is actually one of the schools I am fairly certain looks with some regard at at least some non-trad activities. 3 committee members with whom I have had professional contact have independently told me that Hopkins actively recruits peace corps volunteers and that they look for "tough people" who will "survive hopkins" and that peace corps is their pet like in a lot of cases.

I also had a commitee member at another top school, UCSD, tell me that being a peace corps volunteer was regarded on the level of being an olympic athlete and that it was considered a more medically relevant experience than any non-paid hospital/doctor experience (I didn't understand the non-paid thing, but I think he was referring to shadowing and volunteering without actual patient care). A lot of peace corps volunteers go to do health stuff, my status is as a degreed health profession (masters +CHES, phlebotimist, and EMT).

I guess we will see the truth of all this in a couple years! Thanks and hope to hear from more of you all!

 

[QofQuimica]

my MCAT score is over 40 (recently found out! thank goodness..I'll post how soon).

Is this on the real MCAT (i.e., not a practice test)? Because if so, I really hate to even have to tell you this, but you're probably going to have to retake that bad boy after your Peace Corps stint--the scores are only good for 3 years or less at most schools.

 

[mariluz]

Coclean,

First of congrats on all of the great things you are doing! We'll have to team up when we finish off our training to bring research to the developing world -- I absolutely love that!!

Alrighties, so I do agree with everyone who posted. From my experience in interviews and so forth, people were less focused on my age (25) and more focused on what I have done in the last three-four years. I'll be 26 when I start MSTP this fall, and yeah, it's daunting sometimes, but like you said -- it's what you want to accomplish/your goals, so it's not that bad after I think about it.

Bring together a cohesive story about your journey and your goals for (both of) your personal statements (as well as secondaries). I was told that people don't pay attention to them and was surprised to have interviewers tell me that they really enjoyed reading my personal statements. The experience you are having in Perú and future work in medicine, global health, etc., *plus* your goals (wowow!) will make for an outstanding story!

So finally, be confident and don't let the years get you down. We're all out there (us "non-trads") and keep us posted!

Como está Iquitos? Dale un saludaso a mi patria querida.

mariluz

 

[MSTPbound]

I'll be 28 in September and I'll matriculate into the Mount Sinai MSTP in July.

This is a third career for me... first was an ethnic dance educator and performer, then got a master's degree in applied physiology and became a personal trainer. Hoping to become a mudphud neurosurgical scientist by age 43.

Sky's the limit. Good !


-Mbound

 

[meowkat444]

glad you replied MSTPBound--you were who i was referring to before, and you've done great this cycle!

 

[solumanculver]

Hi,
I'm 27 and I'll be starting at Ohio State this fall. After I graduated high school I moved to Yemen for a year to study Arabic. I was there during the entire year of 2001, so September 11th happened while I was there. As an aside, I saw once on the Yemeni News that the US was sending it's bombers to destroy the capitol of Yemen (where I lived, right next to the parliament and national communications center), that never happened, but it was scary as sh**.

When I came back from Yemen I was fluent in Arabic, but I couldn't really find a job. The newspapers were filled with advertisements for Arabic speakers to join the military, and I kind of wanted some adventure, so I joined the army.

I ended up working in intelligence, translating various intercepted transmissions. While I was in the army I got a degree in religion by attending night courses and taking stuff online. After I got bored with the army (about three and a half years into it), I decided that translating wasn't as cool as I had thought, and decided to go into Medicine.

I got out of the army early (which is about the most difficult thing I have ever done, much harder than getting into an MD/PhD program) and started studying chemistry. Along the way I got into research and decided to do the MD/PhD thing... Well, that's me in a nutshell.

As for advice for Non-traditional applicants, I guess I would say not to sell yourself short. I didn't apply to that many top programs because I didn't think that I would be competitive, being so old and weird, but I ended up doing a lot better than I had expected, so I think if I had applied a little more ambitiously I might have had more options... though I am really happy where I am now.

 

[MSTPbound]

glad you replied MSTPBound--you were who i was referring to before, and you've done great this cycle!

Thanks meowkat... To be honest, I hadn't read through all of the posts when I first posted - such kind words from such a rock star of an applicant! I'm really glad I met you in person this cycle.



Cheers,

 

[Coclean]

Yes, real MCAT....I called all the schools I wanted to apply to in order to ensure that my timeline was working. So, hopefully it should be AOK.

Mariluz: Nunca pense encontrar alguien de Iquitos en SDN???? No lo creo posible! Certainly we should keep in touch and collaborate later possibly....I have a standing job offer (which I might not take) to come back to Peru/Iquitos when I finish all my darn school, so its a definate possibility!! Otherwise, I can get you in touch with all the research groups down here and you can pick up the flag for me in the southern hemisphere! Viva El Peru!

Thank you so much MSTPbound for proving it can be done.

 

[Gotti]

Some guy got into my program when he 31, which is considered top 10-15 MSTP. Another girl got in after 6 years industry research so she must have been 25+. Hope that makes you feel better.

The girl did just fine and graduated and was even grad student of the year for all grad students. Except she aged really quick under the pressure of the long program and I saw her cry a couple of times. She struggled in some med school classes because you simply don't have that kind of med school spunk when you get older as I'm finding now as a MS3. She really looked beat up at the end.

The guy dropped out after failing a year in med school and was failing it the second time around. He hit on a bunch of girls in both his med school class and MD/Phd class. People thought he was a desperate creep. I thought so too, initially, but then I didn't know him well and I thought when I'm that age, I don't want people calling me a creep if I happen to be awkward socially from all the years I spent studying and working in an isolated lab. Made me think about getting married to my ex-girlfriend while I'm young enough to not be considered creepy. Sorry about that side story.

 

[Picklesali]

Some guy got into my program when he 31, which is considered top 10-15 MSTP. Another girl got in after 6 years industry research so she must have been 25+. Hope that makes you feel better.

The girl did just fine and graduated and was even grad student of the year for all grad students. Except she aged really quick under the pressure of the long program and I saw her cry a couple of times. She struggled in some med school classes because you simply don't have that kind of med school spunk when you get older as I'm finding now as a MS3. She really looked beat up at the end.

The guy dropped out after failing a year in med school and was failing it the second time around. He hit on a bunch of girls in both his med school class and MD/Phd class. People thought he was a desperate creep. I thought so too, initially, but then I didn't know him well and I thought when I'm that age, I don't want people calling me a creep if I happen to be awkward socially from all the years I spent studying and working in an isolated lab. Made me think about getting married to my ex-girlfriend while I'm young enough to not be considered creepy. Sorry about that side story.

Wow.

 

[mariluz]

Coclean: Soy de Lima, no de Iquitos -- pero mi tierra linda es el hermoso Perú ... y la verdad que toda la majestosa America Latina

I have only ran into people from Iquitos in Puno (where I have done all of my work). I am mos def interested in collaborating -- *always* looking for peeps for collaboration -- so keep in touch. Among one of my goals for the next 40 or so years (probably more) is create a web of oncology-treatment/cancer centers in the sierra/selva -- I'm thinking Madre de Dios, Puno, Cusco, Huancavelica, Ayacucho. As you probably have already seen, government resources are very much centralized in Lima and thus there is a huge disparity in adequate health care provisions in the sierra/selva regions.

I'm very very jealous. I've always wanted to go to Iquitos. I hope you've had a chance to enjoy Peruvian cuisine ... yummmmm ...

I recommend you reading this book: Siete ensayos de interpretación de la realidad peruana by José Carlos Mariátegui (available in Spanish here:
http://www.yachay.com.pe/especiales/7ensayos/)

And I'm giving my anonymity away, but you can also check the group I co-founded at Michigan, Project Suyana: http://www.projectsuyana.org

paz!

 

[Coclean]

She really looked beat up at the end..

Aren't they ALLLL pretty beat up at the end of it?? I have a couple friends finishing PhD programs who went straight from undergrad and many of them are in the "not showering until I finish X number of pages/this experiment" mode even in their mid/late 20s

I don't want people calling me a creep if I happen to be awkward socially from all the years I spent studying and working in an isolated lab. Made me think about getting married to my ex-girlfriend w
hile I'm young enough to not be considered creepy. Sorry about that side story.

These people are called professors......professors who marry their grad students or postdocs.

 

[LaEsponja]

Bumping an old post, but I can't find anything else more recent. Any updates possible? Anyone else a nontrad interested in MD/Phd? A bit worried about my chances and wondering if makes sense to do the program from the all controversial stuff I've read in conjunction with already having a family. Plus it would be nice to interact with others in it for the extra-long haul.

 

[dap]

I'll only be two years out when I apply, but in addition to that I'm applying in the social sciences--so maybe that qualifies me for "non-traditional"?

My story: Just finished undergrad last week, biological sciences major, but all of my research has been in medical anthropology. I've done about 2 years of med anthro research, 6 months of that being totally independent IRB-approved fieldwork in Iraq (both northern and southern). For the next two years I will most likely be attending a funded language/masters program in Istanbul, where I'll study Turkish intensively the first year, Arabic intensively the second year, and throw together a little masters thesis at the end.

My research experience, from an anthropology perspective, is really good. I have quite a few conference presentations, some research awards, and have a few sole-author manuscripts I am sitting on to submit for publication once I'm in the program in Turkey. Have had lots of profs at conferences tell me "I refuse to believe you're an undergrad" "you're doing PhD level work" etc, etc.

My numbers, on the other hand, will probably only be decent. My GPA is a 3.68 or so. I'll get my MCAT scores back today (!!!), I was hitting around 34 consistently on the AAMC practice exams I took (13-15 in verbal).

Anyway, I'll be applying to MD/PhD programs (in Anthropology) next cycle from Turkey, and will, God willing, matriculate the month I turn 25. Unfortunately I'll only be able to make it back for a few interviews (assuming I get a few interviews) so I'm trying to be very intentional about where I apply. Meaning being in contact with Anthro profs to see if they are interested in my work, applying to a non-MSTP program (Florida), and applying to MSTPs that seem more welcoming of anthros/social scientists (Emory, Penn, WashU, U of Wash, Chicago, UCB/UCSF. Hopkins is my reach school because of a potential advisor there)


Best of luck to everyone!!

EDIT: Well, I got a 31 on the MCAT, so that kinda sucks. My lowest AAMC was 33, and I felt great during the actual exam, so I have no idea what happened. 8 PS / 12 VR / 11 BS. I'm not applying this cycle so I guess I have plenty of time to retake this summer...

 

[LMac]

Oh wow, I guess I'll be the old "non-trad" here. I'm 34, graduated with a 2.8 in 2001 and just completed my second semester of post-bacc. I received a 4.0 both semesters which pulled my cGPA over 3.0 and my sGPA to 3.49. I've received a summer fellowship in neuroscience and am also a research assistant in a neuroscience lab. This provides a good chance to publish as an undergrad as well as amazing hands on opportunities, including everything from immunohistochemistry to transcardial perfusions all in my first 3 weeks there. I am incredibly grateful for their trust in that.

I have been introduced to an MD that I can shadow but it will most likely be mid-fall before I can start because of the fellowship, lab work + classes (honors organic, calc or physics and molecular cell bio). Planning to take the MCAT next April to apply the following cycle. I am aware this all sounds insane, considering I'll most likely be 36 before I walk through the door, but I can't imagine doing anything else. Clinical hours (volunteering and shadowing) are going to be my big challenge going forward unless I can figure out how to fit more hours in the day. I just want to make myself as competitive an applicant as I can between now and then.

I'm glad this thread was started. I split my time evenly between this board and the non-trad board. Appreciate it!

 

[LaEsponja]

Never really put "my story." I have two children and am in the Army reserves. I just recently got the fire put under me to get back into school and actually succeed with my mother losing her house and declaring bankruptcy and my retired grandfather about to do the same. I refuse to travel that road without doing everything in my power to prevent it. I transferred to my state school from online and lost all of my degree-worthy credits, starting me back over as a rising sophomore (GAH!). I was able to pull my gpa from a 2.7 to a 3.88, so it wasn't for nothing. I'm spacing my classes out enough and utilizing my summers to be well prepped for the MCAT, get in good research, and be able to have something of a family life as well, so I will be turning 29 fall of matriculation. I'm super excited and am glad to finally see myself headed somewhere.

 

[pfaction]

I'm a PharmD student (22) that realized that Pharmacy is not the end of medicine for me, and wants to go onto medical school. One of the requirements is research. So I signed on with a professor, and loved the experience so much, I signed up with three others. I've been doing research ever since, exploring, reading, thinking up experiments and doing them. Research has taken over my life!

During Spring 2010, I found an article that dealt with the beginnings of pharmacogenetics. And I've found that to be my true calling. I'm applying to MD/PhD because I can integrate research with medicine directly.

 

[Anandamide]

I suppose I'm "nontraditional." I'm 24 now, and I'm planning to apply for MSTP programs at the age of 25. Hopefully, I will get accepted my first application cycle; I'd like to enter med school in Fall 2014 at the age of 26.


I'll be an older applicant for a couple reasons:

1) I'm taking some time off to do additional research beyond the 2 years I did in undergrad. I will have approximately 3.5 years under my belt by the time I apply.

2) I did a combined BA/BMus program for undergrad. This required an extra year of college and maxing out my credit load nearly every term for 5 years. My Bachelor of Arts is normal enough; I did a biochemistry major, a concentration in neuroscience, and a minor in psych. (Effectively, I did a neuropharmacology major). However, my Bachelor of Music is in Voice Performance. I still perform regularly as a hobby. My past and present PIs have even attended several of my concerts.


I'm hoping that MD/PhD programs will view my undergraduate double degree program favorably -- or at least neutrally. After all, I have already experienced what it is like to earn two very different diplomas simultaneously. I realize that an MD/PhD will be a whole new experience, but I thrive when I'm tugged in two different directions.

 

[SonhosDaVida]

Looking for PharmD to MSTP or MDPhD advice.......