Need opinions from Australian and Irish Graduates

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

adf2462gmail.com

New Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
May 16, 2016
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Hi everyone, recently i got accepted to an Irish school and i have also applied to the Australian medical schools.
Questions
1) Which country is easier to stay and get into residency programs if i can't make it to U.S in the future
2) I know Irish schools are ranked lower than Australian ones, does this make any difference in terms of reputation and getting into the Residency?
3) During my education where can i get more hands on experience? i want to spend more time in the OR.


I am neither an American, Australian, Irish or Canadian citizen. I am thinking that i might get into couple of the Australian schools
Stats 3.3 gpa ( 3.9 last 3 years) 515 mcat

Members don't see this ad.
 
1) Australia, you have 0 chance of getting an internship in Ireland unless you manage to obtain EU citizenship somehow. Although its a bit of a mess in Australia, you still have a decent chance of getting an internship somewhere in Australia if you wanted one.

2) No, ranks are stupid.

3) From what I gather, clinical teaching in Ireland and Australia are quite decent as they tend to throw you in the clinical setting quite early (correct me if I'm wrong my Irish colleagues). We were at the hospital starting from week one.

I am a current Australian student.
 
Hi everyone, recently i got accepted to an Irish school and i have also applied to the Australian medical schools.
Questions
1) Which country is easier to stay and get into residency programs if i can't make it to U.S in the future
2) I know Irish schools are ranked lower than Australian ones, does this make any difference in terms of reputation and getting into the Residency?
3) During my education where can i get more hands on experience? i want to spend more time in the OR.


I am neither an American, Australian, Irish or Canadian citizen. I am thinking that i might get into couple of the Australian schools
Stats 3.3 gpa ( 3.9 last 3 years) 515 mcat
I am not a student from either country but I can chime in since I looked into these paths myself last year:
1) Australia is 'easier' but by no means easy. You are still the last Tier as a foreigner.
2) Irish schools are very well respected in the US. Ignore ranking when you compare Ireland and Australia.
3) Neither Ireland nor Australia will give you as much hands-on as the US does. The clinical teachings in both countries are solid, though.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
exactly what phoenix fire said.

For OR experience..
it's never going to compare with the American clinical schools. quite honestly, if you're expecting to be able to participate in surgery.

australia - completely different system to the USA in terms of training. it follows the UK system. (longer residency, but better hours) students generally have less responsibilities and involvement in patient care. the biggest selling point to training in Australia is the lifestyle.

also highly dependent on where you go. if you go rural, you're more likely to get hands on. if you go big city, it's more likely you'll spend more time observing (unscrubbed in the background) or holding a retractor. there are exceptions, where if you show interest and are persistent, you get to do more (also dependent on where you choose to go for clinical years). however, North America - students are taught how to close and expected to in the OR from 3rd year, much more consistently shall we say, it's not the exception. There are reason for these differences. In a nutshell however, we're talking two different countries with their own way of producing doctors.

lol might get into a couple of Australian schools..
Uh no you will definitely get in somewhere in Australia.
they need money. I think it's actually easier to get into australian schools than it is to get into the irish ones, lemme put it that way. the minimum cut offs are fairly low for international full fee paying students.
despite higher rankings haha, that yea, really mean jack. I mean there is research at the Australian schools, which could be why they're ranked higher. either way, if your ultimate goal is the us, you're still an img if you apply for residency, whether irish or australian school.

The Australian schools, by the way, do not do is take responsibility for you to get into a residency program. mainly because they can't, schools and residency are completely separate. hospitals and colleges are in charge of hiring and recruiting residents and registrars. the schools have 0 say.

Jobs-wise. it's getting harder and harder in australia.
it's possible it could turn into the situation in Ireland, as class sizes get bigger every year and internship spots are not going up by the same rate. right now, most internationals end up working in a rural hospitals. it was not quite to that extent 5-6 years ago, to give you an idea of how sorta rapidly things change. anything can happen in 4-5 years. Just because it's relatively easy now, doesn't mean it will continue to be after you've thrown in 4 years and 300k AUD.

but good on ya for thinking a head a bit and asking questions!
 
Last edited:
First of all thank you all for responding. Believe me you guys are helping a lot.
A Leaky Sieve , when i was shadowing physicians i had a chance to see American medical students scrubbing and closing which i liked a lot.
1)I would love to do that in Ireland or Australia but from what i have read they don't allow medical student participate that much, is this true?
2)i Definitely don't want to go back to my home country due to many reasons and because of this i would like to go to residency and eventually practice in an English speaking country. Besides from current slight advantage of being able to stay in Australia , is there a big difference that i should be aware of?
3) I have been living in Ohio last 3 years and frankly, i am not the biggest fan of cold weather. Seriously it is the worst. This makes Australia a good choice but at the same time in Ireland they have long breaks in the summer where i can study for USMLE if i need to or observe a physician in the U.S . Because of how their semesters are set up do you guys think i would be able to do the same sort of things in Australia? Also it is closer to home and U.S with cheaper flights.
4) Continuing on the last question , if i graduate from Australia due to graduating in January would i lose a year to get into a residency program? Because i already lost some years and i would like to get in as soon as i can.
Doctors84 do you regret anything about going to Oz?
 
1.) I think that was answered, your chances of participating wouldn't be as fulfilling as a US school. If you are proactive and persistent, you'll probably get more chances.
2.) I think between Ireland/Australia, the advantage of an Australian internship is significant currently. Like A Leaky Sieve, that is the current situation. And I am strictly talking about internship, vocational training is another story. Predicting the future in 4 years is alot like reading tea leaves. You can see some trends, but that's all it really is, things can change drastically. So obviously has an understanding, but you can't sweat too much over it.
3.) Depending on which school in Australia, quite a few of them give you ample self-directed studying time. You can use that time to tailor yourself more to the USMLE. There is no "dedicated" time other then your breaks and the schools don't follow the USMLE curriculum. And why should they? It's an Australian school. That's the same for Ireland.
4.) No, you will match March of that year and start in July for North America. You don't "lose" a year, but you do get a 6 month break from graduation and when you start your residency.

No, I don't regret coming to Australia. I'm Canadian myself and I found it was the best option for me personally from all the different int'l options. An IMG is an IMG. Each country/program will have it's pros and cons so it really depends on what you want. For instance, Ireland supposedly teaches the basic sciences a bit better then Oz/maybe slightly better match rates to Canada but you don't have a backup internship option in EU. Caribbean will follow the USMLE better, alot of USMLE resources etc., with 2 years of US rotations but as you know it is a very cut-throat environment, high attrition rates and no back-up internship. Australia lacks alot of basic science teaching for the USMLEs, far away from North America but possibility of backup internship.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I couldn't have phrased it better than @DoctorS84.
to be honest.

1. adding to what's been said already.
(elaborating as..I'm now wondering if you were after a more specific response after repeating the question)

worst case scenario, it's very minimal hands-on experience in surgery compared to the states.
I'll be quite frank. there are students who may never get to suture during an entire surgical rotation, let alone close. the retractor was it, or doing the IDCs. yay.

again, if you do your research, you can get some hands-on and learn some surgical skills.
for instance, once you attend a medical school, ask around to find out which of their hospitals (or clinical schools) offers the best surgical experiences. ask other students and upper years, or do shadowing as a first year to find out early. then you can try to be a clinical year student at site with better hands-on. nothing is handed to you in Australia however, you have to earn that trust sometimes and be proactive. versus much more is expected from students in the USA, you're not allowed to be a passenger or observer and expect to pass. In Australia, scrubbing in and closing is not a common expectation of students, depending on hospital, it may not even be expected of interns.

the point to the Australian system in the clinical years is to make you safe to be an intern, looking after patients in clinic or the wards, not performing surgery. it was important to go to theatre as a student, but to get an idea of what surgery was about and what the common surgeries involved so you had the ability to diagnose things. to be able to refer when on a different field and get the ball rolling. or to be able manage common post-operative complications for a particular surgery. surgical skills come later, if you choose that path. (not that this isn't important or taught in the USA system).

reason for this is that there is a general intern year in Australia, where you have to rotate in all the different fields (Emerg, med and surg), that doesn't exist in the USA. Also in Aus, you don't go directly into surgical residency after med school in Australia like the grads would in the USA. so that surgical training as a student in the USA schools is actually critical to selection for residency. selection doesn't come till much later in Australia.

training is much more condensed in the USA. hence the differences.

2. there are massive differences.
(I know some would argue there isn't. but i mean c'mon guys..really? the structure alone..)

looking at surgery. let's say general surgery.
After grad:

USA: match into a surgical program for what, 4-5 years?
It's much more streamlined & straightforward. everyone in the program is generally in it to be surgeons.
intern year is a surgical intern year.

Australia: not streamlined. less obvious to understand. also highly dependent on the state.
universal to all the states: intern year - mixed year of emergency medicine, internal medicine and general surgery and electives.
- after that year - house officer years (you have to reapply each year for a contract with a hospital) - variable
- you could match into years with all surgical rotations if lucky. if not, you can still end up with a mixed year of anything, highly dependent on hospital and state.
- roughly - 2-3 years (or more) of house officer years, with variable hands on that remains hsopital and state dependent.
- then you do surgical anatomy courses and an anatomy exam
- then you get to do what is called registrar training (if you can get into one after applying and interview), which is equivalent to roughly a senior surgical resident in the usA for another 5 years. do extremely hard exams - MCQ & live oral exams. much like how there's surgical board exams in the USA.
- it's also not uncommon for people to be "surgical residents' for 5-6 years before getting registrar training to finish their training.
- so up to 10-12 years to be a surgeon in Australia.

why the difference?
The day to day hours. there's no 24 hr or 30 hr shifts in Australia.
as an Australian intern or resident, most days are 8-10 hrs with a 16-17 hr shift once a week or every two weeks.
among other things. it's two different countries that evolved two very different systems. I could go on.
Would the Aussies like their programs to be shorter? yea to be sure. however, most would prefer the hours they currently have.

The other major contributing factor is that surgery is getting more and more competitive. that's why some are lingering in the house officer years for longer. it didn't always used to be that way. it's becoming more and more required to do research for competitive fields in Australia, which is relatively new for the Aussies. this probably isn't case for Americans, where students are more expected to do research prior to getting into their competitive programs. also trending is that they want you to be highly trained and incredibly sure about the path you're taking before starting vocational training.

"it's a war of attrition", as in, many in australia will decide surgery is not for them 2-3- years into house officer training in surgery and choose a 'lifestyle' field with better hours. it's also to do with the fact that many clinical year students in Australia aren't worked as hard as they are in the USA, so they wouldn't know until they've worked in the system later as interns and house officers.

Basically..cultural norms & values about lifestyle & training are very diverse.
never make the presumption that all Western countries are the same.
there is no better or worse, there's pros and cons to each, and you choose the one that is best suited to your needs.

See the Royal college of surgeons guide.
See AMA re: training pathway for any medical field

*Disclaimer! I'm not a surgeon. Just throwing that out there..

3&4 & regrets - what doctors84 said.
Ohio weather? Ha..
if you're an American clinical student or resident, how often do you think you'll be outdoors?
unless weather on the commute that is important to you...

Re; holiday semesters -
similar to Ireland, in Australia, it's encouraged that you use your 'holidays' in the summer off to do shadowing and electives, at least for internationals wishing to go abroad for residency.

however, it is very, very hard to arrange any electives in the USA unless the medical school you attend has partner schools (this means they have arrangements to exchange students and paid good money to the American site, it's all about money). it's increasingly competitive to get electives in the USA, you're also competing with American students trying to try out other schools/hospitals prior to applying for residency. not to mention all the other IMGs trying to get a foot in the door to the USA. expect to drop a few grand too.

As for regrets.
just adding onto what's already been said (my sentiments exactly)

it's also a very individualistic experience.
i've had classmates who were happy with their experiences.
others just made the best of it. they knew they had no other choice.
some hated it and couldn't wait to leave.
(there were even the rare number of people who dropped out - they were that disappointed. they returned to their home countries to try harder to get into medical schools at home. or just did something else).
it's often hard to predict how you'll find it.

you have to remember though, that for many internationals, it was the last resort.
it was either attending schools overseas and signing up to be an IMG or not being a doctor at all.
fairly simple for them. in this scenario, the question is more, would you regret not being a doctor more?

it's also universally said 'don't be a doctor, unless you can't picture doing anything else.'
except that it's even more desperate if you're going abroad to train to be a doctor.

if your aim is to practice surgery in the USA, your chances are far, far better if you were stay in the USA and attend an AMerican MD or DO program than being an IMG. it's far more common for IMGs to match in FM or IM (if they match). However, if you can't get into an American program, you have to make the best with what's left to you.

(how does that song go? "you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you get what you need")
 
Last edited:
DoctorS84 Thank you for reply , i appreciate it.
@A Leaky Sieve
Thank you very much for clarifying almost everything that i wanted to know. You included a lot of good points !
No, I don't regret coming to Australia. I'm Canadian myself and I found it was the best option for me personally from all the different int'l options.
Glad that you are not regretting it.
Ohio weather? Ha..
if you're an American clinical student or resident, how often do you think you'll be outdoors?
unless weather on the commute that is important to you...
I was hoping to spend some time outside during my first two years, maybe workout outside :). and plus it is infinitely better to live in a place warmer. I mean Irish weather vs Australian we know who is winning there , atleast for me.

it was either attending schools overseas and signing up to be an IMG or not being a doctor at all.
fairly simple for them. in this scenario, the question is more, would you regret not being a doctor more?
I mean it wasn't the case for me honestly because in any case i am going to be an international student since i don't have citizenship for any of these countries.
it's also universally said 'don't be a doctor, unless you can't picture doing anything else.'
except that it's even more desperate if you're going abroad to train to be a doctor.
I think it is manageable if you like what you are doing as you said.

@DoctorS84 @A Leaky Sieve After the replies i am more inclined to pursue medicine in Australia. But i wish we had an Irish grad here that could tell me about their experience.
 
I mean it wasn't the case for me honestly because in any case i am going to be an international student since i don't have citizenship for any of these countries.
Whoa, being an international student is very different to being an international grad!!

if you want to do residency in the US for surgery, I would still highly recommend that you try to stay there and be a graduate of an American school. Unless you know that you cannot get into one. it still gives you much more advantages over being both non-American and having a non-American degree if you want surgery in the US.
All your rotations in the clinical years would be in the US and those connections (or LORs from American surgeons) are a massive advantage alone to have. it's very difficult to arrange elective rotations in surgery in the US if you choose to be an international student in a country outside the US.

Also, just post in the Irish forums if you want to get the attention of irish grads and students.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Gonna join the thread, I have just the same question ..
 
Top