My thoughts on EMT for pre-med

[emttim]

Alright, maybe some people will flame me for this, maybe some people will appreciate the advice, but I'm going to drop an explanation of why I think it's a good idea for everyone to at least take the EMT-B class /and/ get some experience in it if they're planning to apply to med school. Now keep in mind, adcoms doesn't give too much of a **** anymore if you have an EMT cert but no experience. So there is no reason to get it for that.

That being said, you don't learn how to perform surgery as an EMT, but you do learn very basic emergency medicine, which honestly is a pretty good foundation for anything else. You learn a small amount of anatomy, medical terminology, basic medicine and interventions, and if you work as an EMT, then you get to experience patient care first hand and decide if that's for you. Granted, not all patient care will be like emergency medicine...EM is pretty damn stressful and the patients can be very ungrateful or even violent sometimes. Unless you work in Detroit or another very risky area though, it's not like you have a high chance of getting shot or hurt, so that's not really an issue. Granted, not all of you are going to want to go into EM, but regardless of what you want to do, adcoms is going to want to see that you have clinical exposure and volly exp. Well, you can both volunteer as an EMT or get paid for it, and regardless of which it is, that's about as good as it gets for patient care and clinical exposure.

Now granted there are plenty of jobs out there that pay better than EMT while you're going to college, but if you're going into medicine for money in the first place, then I hate to say it but you're wasting your time since you can make a ****load more in business or most other professions. Most of us who have had any sort of volly experience with a hospital before have probably figured out that, despite some very few exceptions, hospital experience is basically just a complete waste of time. Outside of EMT specifically, volunteering with a FD, search and rescue, etc. would be far more satisfying in my opinion and it'd accomplish the same thing as far as volly experience goes, since adcoms doesn't seem to particularly care which it is.

And hey, who knows, you might realize you like emergency medicine and stay in it...or at least decide earning money sleeping while going to college kicks ass.

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[voirlesetoiles]

Please don't start this again

yes let's stay away from that for a while

Being an EMT is great patient care experience. But keep in mind that there are many non-medical related things that come along with it too... driving the ambulance, lifting patients/ transport procedures, memorizing every thing on the truck for check offs, radio calls, station shift procedures, etc. If you're like me and aren't too crazy about the non-medical tasks involved, trust me - the patient care is well worth it.

 

[Tartheheel]

OP I completely agree with your sentiment: one should definitely try to get some field experience in addition to just getting the emt certification. However, in some places (like where I live) it is extremely difficult to even get a volunteer position as an emt let alone land a paid job; there are just way too many people with an emt certification nowadays.

One of the prime reasons I decided to get an emt certification was because of a lack of opportunity to do some actual /useful direct patient care at the hospital. Obviously, I do get to care for patients while I volunteer at the local hospital by filling water jugs, and handing out yogurt and whatnot , BUT that experience comes nowhere close to what I've experienced as an EMT. At the hospital, I feel that I am sometimes viewed as a mere obstruction/distraction /know-it-all by the nurses/staff I work with when I ask them ANY curious questions about them/healthcare/procedures etc.

I believe this is the closest one can get to "becoming a doctor" as a premed with extremely limited knowledge, training, and experience. Nothing in my experience compares in terms of the excitement, thrill, and adventure....blah...it's morning and too much of an effort to write...but yea...you get the picture.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

More in the interest of discussion than trying to start an argument, I think the OP is wrong.

1. You don't learn "basic emergency medicine" as an EMT. You learn to be an EMT. While that might be cool, I'm not sure that it gives you better insight into what being an MD is like than shadowing or doing some other thing. In my mind that's like saying that being a scrub tech teaches you "basic surgical skills."

2. Not nearly everyone who goes to med school has the personality to be an EMT. I have plenty of friends who are nice, quiet people who will be great docs but are gravitating towards slower-paced, clinic-based specialties.

 

[2008orbust]

I was a paramedic all during my undergrad and it provided me with a ton of great stuff for the application process. Also, I found a RURAL ambulance service that ran only on VOLUNTEER paramedics and EMTs. I received great training, spent a good amount of time in the ER because of it and honed my basic skills and ability to concentrate under great pressure. That path does however have a few downfalls:you may sign up for a doulble shift thinking you will get tons of styudying or sleeping done and the rig is so busy you never even see the station. If you have a test the next morning, this really stinks (and happened to me more than a couple times).

I loved my years as a paramedic. They also gave me the chance to network and really get to know a few more physicians.

Good luck!!!

 

[pmdc222]

I have been in EMS for 7 years and a paramedic for 2 and I have loved every minute of it. I work in a paid 911 system and although it is a job for me, it is also a hobby and a passion. This has driven me to want to pursue EM in medical school. That being said, I can't completely agree with the OP. While working in EMS definitely has the ability to expose you to innumerable clinical experiences, I do not think that it is for everyone. I think it takes a very specific personality to love this work (maybe a little bit of insanity). I would never encourage people to enter the field because they have to or because they "should." We should all follow our own interests in the clinical and research fields. Nobody wants to be forced into a situation that they are not interested or comfortable in, and quite frankly, it would do nothing for the field of EMS or for the people trying gain respect for the profession. If someone is interested in becoming an EMT, then by all means go for it and get that valuable experience! But that value is very dependent on someone's interest level and there are numerous other ways to get the experience that do not involve EMS. As someone who loves the field, it always bothers me when people get their certification just for their resume. We should all have different passions and pursue those instead of other peoples. Good doctors are passionate about THEIR specialty and work.

That being said, if anyone has any questions about EMS, feel free to PM me.

 

[philios]

I have been in EMS for 7 years and a paramedic for 2 and I have loved every minute of it. I work in a paid 911 system and although it is a job for me, it is also a hobby and a passion.

how the heck did you manage to get emt-p certified? or did you go into ems after school and are applying to med school late? i tried to figure out a way i could get emt-p certified and still be in college but there was just no way since it was a full year long course.

 

[notdeadyet]

how the heck did you manage to get emt-p certified? or did you go into ems after school and are applying to med school late? i tried to figure out a way i could get emt-p certified and still be in college but there was just no way since it was a full year long course.

Judging by the fact he said he was a paramedic for 7 years, I'd assume he was a non-trad.

 

[pmdc222]

how the heck did you manage to get emt-p certified? or did you go into ems after school and are applying to med school late? i tried to figure out a way i could get emt-p certified and still be in college but there was just no way since it was a full year long course.

I became an EMT my freshman year in college and then went to paramedic school the year after I graduated and have worked as a medic since then. Yes, I'm a non-traditional student.

Oh, and notdeadyet - I'm a girl actually

 

[bambielee]

More in the interest of discussion than trying to start an argument, I think the OP is wrong.

1. You don't learn "basic emergency medicine" as an EMT. You learn to be an EMT. While that might be cool, I'm not sure that it gives you better insight into what being an MD is like than shadowing or doing some other thing. In my mind that's like saying that being a scrub tech teaches you "basic surgical skills."

2. Not nearly everyone who goes to med school has the personality to be an EMT. I have plenty of friends who are nice, quiet people who will be great docs but are gravitating towards slower-paced, clinic-based specialties.

I don't mean to disagree, but I'm going to . I'm not saying it's as in depth as medical school, because it obviously isn't, but the first aid and CPR classes required definitely teach you the basics and give you a nice base of knowledge to build upon. Shadowing an MD may give you and idea of what it is like to be a doctor, the daily grind, etc., but as an EMT you get hands on experience, which in my opinion is extremely valuable. I think thats what the OP was trying to say.

 

[gotmeds?]

More in the interest of discussion than trying to start an argument, I think the OP is wrong.

1. You don't learn "basic emergency medicine" as an EMT. You learn to be an EMT. While that might be cool, I'm not sure that it gives you better insight into what being an MD is like than shadowing or doing some other thing. In my mind that's like saying that being a scrub tech teaches you "basic surgical skills."

I'm not sure where you get this from. Basic emergency medicine is part of every medical school education and it's pretty much all we teach in an EMT class. The whole "being an EMT" part (i.e. ambulance operation, paperwork, etc) comes later. If you go through medical school without knowing what to when you find someone laying in bed and not breathing, then you have no business being a doctor.

2. Not nearly everyone who goes to med school has the personality to be an EMT. I have plenty of friends who are nice, quiet people who will be great docs but are gravitating towards slower-paced, clinic-based specialties.

What kind of personality does it take to be an EMT? I'm a pretty nice, quiet guy, but when I worked as a paramedic, I did what I had to do to be an effective leader. Pretty much every doctor, regardless of specialty, is in a leadership position at some point. I think that being an EMT or medic is a great way to develop those skills.

 

[notdeadyet]

Oh, and notdeadyet - I'm a girl actually

My bad. I usually look before I leap...

 

[prmdbeach17]

I agree that it can be a great experience, I only wish I had time to do it. Finally you can put down the chemistry books and do something medically-related.

 

[jochi1543]

I don't mean to disagree, but I'm going to . I'm not saying it's as in depth as medical school, because it obviously isn't, but the first aid and CPR classes required definitely teach you the basics and give you a nice base of knowledge to build upon.

Having taken highest level CPR and advanced first aid, I would disagree with this. Honestly, most of the stuff I "learned" made me go "DUH...." It was all pretty common sense. I can't speak of the paramedic classes, but that's my humble opinion on CPR/FA.

 

[154465]

....Unless you work in Detroit or another very risky area though, it's not like you have a high chance of getting shot or hurt...

Why? why? why? what is with this entire community ragging on Detroit every chance they get? Do you honestly believe people in Detroit just randomly shoot at EMT's? I have been in this city for years and I honest to God have no idea why you people keep saying these things.

 

[bambielee]

Having taken highest level CPR and advanced first aid, I would disagree with this. Honestly, most of the stuff I "learned" made me go "DUH...." It was all pretty common sense. I can't speak of the paramedic classes, but that's my humble opinion on CPR/FA.

Well, just because you already knew it doesn't take away from the fact that it provides you with the basic skills. Mostly everyone should know how to do CPR, and if not it's on the wall of any restaurant. Actually DOING it and doing it correctly is a whole different story. That's where the classes and the experience of being an EMT and putting those concepts into action come in. I wasn't commenting on the difficulty level of the courses, just the usefulness of them (and being an EMT in general).

 

[EdCadore]

pre-meds who also are emt-b are a little cocky i think. my roomate is a emt-b and he diagnosis himself with menigitus(sp)last week, turned out to be nothing at all and an handfull of other ailments. if a friend is sick he will tell them which medicines the doctor will prescribe them and that being a emt will guarantee a spot in med school despite grades. other emts i have met have this big head that they know much about medicine then the people around them. but thats jus my 2 cents.

 

[jochi1543]

Well, just because you already knew it doesn't take away from the fact that it provides you with the basic skills. Mostly everyone should know how to do CPR, and if not it's on the wall of any restaurant. Actually DOING it and doing it correctly is a whole different story. That's where the classes and the experience of being an EMT and putting those concepts into action come in. I wasn't commenting on the difficulty level of the courses, just the usefulness of them (and being an EMT in general).

Yeah, but I'd rather get that $200 back right now to put towards my AMCAS.

 

[pmdc222]

pre-meds who also are emt-b are a little cocky i think. my roomate is a emt-b and he diagnosis himself with menigitus(sp)last week, turned out to be nothing at all and an handfull of other ailments. if a friend is sick he will tell them which medicines the doctor will prescribe them and that being a emt will guarantee a spot in med school despite grades. other emts i have met have this big head that they know much about medicine then the people around them. but thats jus my 2 cents.

I think that's a pretty unfair statement. Just because you think your roommate is cocky and a few other EMTs you have met....that doesn't mean all EMT premeds are cocky. That's a big generalization. No one has said anything in this thread to elicit insults.

 

[gotmeds?]

Having taken highest level CPR and advanced first aid, I would disagree with this. Honestly, most of the stuff I "learned" made me go "DUH...." It was all pretty common sense. I can't speak of the paramedic classes, but that's my humble opinion on CPR/FA.

CPR + First Aid = 8 hours
EMT = ~140 hours
Paramedic = ~1400 hours
MD = ~5000 hours

I don't think it's really fair to make judgements about an EMT course based on a FA/CPR class. There's a lot more out there to learn. That's like me saying I know what it's like to be a doctor because I give meds and do procedures as a paramedic.

 

[variablistic]

While I would certainly enjoy being an EMT, I also enjoy being nurse aide. You get to know your patients a lot better. You see a lot more diversity of patient conditions (especially where I work). Plus at many hospitals (mine included) you don't need certification to be one, cutting out that step about taking the class to earn your certificate.

Either, though, are great jobs which simultaneously give clinical experience.

 

[45408]

It's great, it's fun (for some), and I liked it so much, that I got re-licensed so I can do it in between the summer of M1 and M2 (which is right now), but no, it's not for everyone. Let's not all do the exact same thing, please, for the love of God. If you want to do it, DO IT. If you don't, then don't.

 

[jochi1543]

CPR + First Aid = 8 hours

24 for me. Plus if you look above, I was explicitly commenting on a post that talked about the importance of CPR/First Aid, not other things.

 

[emttim]

I don't mean to disagree, but I'm going to . I'm not saying it's as in depth as medical school, because it obviously isn't, but the first aid and CPR classes required definitely teach you the basics and give you a nice base of knowledge to build upon. Shadowing an MD may give you and idea of what it is like to be a doctor, the daily grind, etc., but as an EMT you get hands on experience, which in my opinion is extremely valuable. I think thats what the OP was trying to say.

Yeah, actually that was what I was mainly saying, hands on clinical experience is a lot better than "clinical experience", if you get my distinction between the two. ;P to the person who said EMT isn't for everyone, I dunno, I actually sort of agree on this one. My class started with 50 people and graduated with less than 25. So if you don't lack the drive to jump through all the hoops to finish the EMT-B class and pass national registry, then absolutely, EMT is probably not for you...but then if you don't want to jump through hoops or bust your ass, you're probably not pre-med anyway, so I doubt too many people aren't "cut out for EMT" if they're pre-med.

Why? why? why? what is with this entire community ragging on Detroit every chance they get? Do you honestly believe people in Detroit just randomly shoot at EMT's? I have been in this city for years and I honest to God have no idea why you people keep saying these things.

LOL! Sorry man. I just go off what I've heard from people who work in Detroit since I follow the forums over at ghettomedic.com too. I've never worked there so I won't say I know first-hand what it's like, I just hear that it's like a shooting gallery out there.

pre-meds who also are emt-b are a little cocky i think. my roomate is a emt-b and he diagnosis himself with menigitus(sp)last week, turned out to be nothing at all and an handfull of other ailments. if a friend is sick he will tell them which medicines the doctor will prescribe them and that being a emt will guarantee a spot in med school despite grades. other emts i have met have this big head that they know much about medicine then the people around them. but thats jus my 2 cents.

Right, because non-emt pre-meds are never cocky or full of themselves. idiots will be idiots, end of story.

While I would certainly enjoy being an EMT, I also enjoy being nurse aide. You get to know your patients a lot better. You see a lot more diversity of patient conditions (especially where I work). Plus at many hospitals (mine included) you don't need certification to be one, cutting out that step about taking the class to earn your certificate.

Either, though, are great jobs which simultaneously give clinical experience.

Well, again, comes down to actual clinical experience instead of "clinical experience"...either as an EMT or CNA, you're getting great exposure to medicine, so hey power to you!

It's great, it's fun (for some), and I liked it so much, that I got re-licensed so I can do it in between the summer of M1 and M2 (which is right now), but no, it's not for everyone. Let's not all do the exact same thing, please, for the love of God. If you want to do it, DO IT. If you don't, then don't.

I agree 100%. I didn't want to touch on this too much because I don't want to stomp everyone's toes into oblivion, but this is completely true, don't waste a spot in an EMT class that will most likely be full (since there may be others who are locked out of the class who actually want to do it) just because you want to pad your app or resume. From everything I read, nobody cares if you have an EMT cert but no experience anyway. If you want to be an EMT though, then by all means, go for it.

Oh and to the comment about not having enough time to do paramedic school because it's full-time, basically what I'm doing to compensate for that is just having half a load and doing the medic class on the days I'm not at class for the other one. Not exactly easy, but it's not like medical school will be like a weekend excursion to the red light district in Vegas, so might as well get used to it. There's also part-time and night medic programs too in some areas, worth checking into if you're interested.

 

[greytmedic]

There are many other ways to gain clinical and leadership experience other than being an EMT. Everybody should definitely not be an EMT who is going into medicine. Being an EMT and being a doctor are two very different worlds. Yes, a person can learn life lessons from being an EMT, but people can also learn life lessons from many other different environments and experiences. It is the ability to learn from our experiences and relate them to the future practice of medicine that will make the most impact on an adcom, no matter what type of experience the lesson comes from. That being said, a person should only go through EMT class and become an EMT if it is interesting and they have to time to devout to working more that a shift or two for the experience.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

I'm not sure where you get this from. Basic emergency medicine is part of every medical school education and it's pretty much all we teach in an EMT class. The whole "being an EMT" part (i.e. ambulance operation, paperwork, etc) comes later. If you go through medical school without knowing what to when you find someone laying in bed and not breathing, then you have no business being a doctor.

I guess I am in disagreement with your opinion of what constitutes "basic emergency medicine." At this point we're really just debating semantics . I would say that "knowing what to do when you find someone laying in bed..." is not exactly "basic emergency medicine" but CPR. Which, as someone else already pointed out is just a few hours of class time.

When I think of "basic emergency medicine" I think of about what someone has learned after 4 years of medical school, rotations in Med, Surg, Ob, Peds, Psych, and maybe 1+ years of an acredited residency in Emergency Medicine. Is that person going to be useful at a roadside extraction, no, but they should know how to think.

What kind of personality does it take to be an EMT? I'm a pretty nice, quiet guy, but when I worked as a paramedic, I did what I had to do to be an effective leader. Pretty much every doctor, regardless of specialty, is in a leadership position at some point. I think that being an EMT or medic is a great way to develop those skills.

Yeah, I guess I wasn't trying to say that there was an EMT personality per se as much as trying to point out that not wanting to join the network of emergency medical services doesn't mean that you can't hack it as a doctor. Admittedly, you weren't saying that it did.

I would also probably challenge the assertion that being a medic is a great way to develop leadership skills. But then I don't know a whole lot about what goes into the career on a day-to-day basis.

 

[jochi1543]

"knowing what to do when you find someone laying in bed..." is not exactly "basic emergency medicine"

Am I the only pervert here or what?

 

[pmdc222]

People seem to be debating a lot about CPR and whether this constitutes basic emergency medicine. The thing is...only a small portion of 911 calls are cardiac arrests. EMTs respond to MIs, strokes, car accidents, major traumas, seizures, abdominal pain, childbirth, overdoses etc etc etc. You can basically see anything and they are trained to know how to respond and what to do. EMT training is not just CPR and basic first aid. That's why it is a much longer course than these day long certifications. I would call it very basic emergency medicine - its about assessing patients, recognizing conditions, and treating appropriately. That's basic knowledge of emergency medicine. Obviously there is no comparison to EM residency training but it is still knowledge nonetheless.

As for saying that in order to be considered basic emergency medicine, one must go through four years of medical school and a year of residency --- I challenge you to ride along with some paramedics and see what goes on. It might be an eye opener.

 

[gotmeds?]

I would also probably challenge the assertion that being a medic is a great way to develop leadership skills. But then I don't know a whole lot about what goes into the career on a day-to-day basis.

Well, your typical medic runs 911 calls with an EMT partner and a fire crew of 3-4 people. You're the medical authority on scene, so you're in charge of all aspects of patient care as well as the actions of your team. All this while managing life-threatening medical conditions in less-than-ideal situations.

That's on typical call. During multicasualty incidents, where you have multiple critical patients and additional amublances, things get a little more interesting.

I'm not sure what part of that isn't leadership.

Maybe I should have joined the student senate or something.

 

[trichomoniasis]

More in the interest of discussion than trying to start an argument, I think the OP is wrong.

1. You don't learn "basic emergency medicine" as an EMT. You learn to be an EMT. While that might be cool, I'm not sure that it gives you better insight into what being an MD is like than shadowing or doing some other thing. In my mind that's like saying that being a scrub tech teaches you "basic surgical skills."

2. Not nearly everyone who goes to med school has the personality to be an EMT. I have plenty of friends who are nice, quiet people who will be great docs but are gravitating towards slower-paced, clinic-based specialties.

agree 120%, especially the bolded portion.

edit// huge difference between paramedic and emt btw. Paramedics actually know things and are the leadership at the scene. EMTs are taxi drivers. At least that's the way it works in CA.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

People seem to be debating a lot about CPR and whether this constitutes basic emergency medicine. The thing is...only a small portion of 911 calls are cardiac arrests. EMTs respond to MIs, strokes, car accidents, major traumas, seizures, abdominal pain, childbirth, overdoses etc etc etc. You can basically see anything and they are trained to know how to respond and what to do. EMT training is not just CPR and basic first aid. That's why it is a much longer course than these day long certifications. I would call it very basic emergency medicine - its about assessing patients, recognizing conditions, and treating appropriately. That's basic knowledge of emergency medicine. Obviously there is no comparison to EM residency training but it is still knowledge nonetheless.

As for saying that in order to be considered basic emergency medicine, one must go through four years of medical school and a year of residency --- I challenge you to ride along with some paramedics and see what goes on. It might be an eye opener.

Ha ha, ok. I actually have to for a rotation in the fall so I'll keep this in mind.

I'm bracing for flames in a frightened manner, but I challenge YOU to finish 4 years of med school and a year of residency and then reflect on what you knew before that and how it compares.

(Please don't hurt me...)

 

[Tartheheel]

agree 120%, especially the bolded portion.

edit// huge difference between paramedic and emt btw. Paramedics actually know things and are the leadership at the scene. EMTs are taxi drivers. At least that's the way it works in CA.

Thank God that it's not actually true that EMTs are just "taxi drivers" (well..at least where I live). While I do agree that there is a huge knowledge gap between paramedics and EMTs, EMTs are certainly not just taxi drivers. They are the first and in many cases the only effective "life-line" that a dying patient may have. Applying the logical first ABCs, EMTs save lives day in and day out by assisting patients with their airway/breathing/circulation, and preventing them from going in shock. They are invaluable resources to the medical system as a whole, and certainly work way more than just "taxi drivers" as you say. The MAJORITY of emergency cases do not always require the presence paramedics, and can be handled by EMTs; hence, they are a cheap, indispensable source of labor as they allow effective allocation of emergency healthcare resources (there aren't a sufficient number of paramedics to handle all cases you know).

 

[Tartheheel]

pre-meds who also are emt-b are a little cocky i think. my roomate is a emt-b and he diagnosis himself with menigitus(sp)last week, turned out to be nothing at all and an handfull of other ailments. if a friend is sick he will tell them which medicines the doctor will prescribe them and that being a emt will guarantee a spot in med school despite grades. other emts i have met have this big head that they know much about medicine then the people around them. but thats jus my 2 cents.

That is funny he'd diagnose himself when emt-bs are NEVER, EVER!, supposed to actually DIAGNOSE; that's the job of the docs (at least this is what we were taught). They're supposed to treat and manage life-threatening conditions/injuries, and make a note of all important signs/symptoms which would help them carryout effective treatment, and provide useful information to the EM docs so that THEY can diagnose what's wrong...

That said, I think that even though emt-bs may not even know 1% of what a doc's supposed to know, it's sometimes VERY tempting for them to make statements/assumptions/differentially diagnose such conditions b/c all they read and learned. However, they should humbly realize that they don't know squat about the details of most illnessess as there are sooo many things that could be wrong; there could be a multitude of contraindications to meds they may be unaware of and so could end up doing more harm then good...

 

[emttim]

That is funny he'd diagnose himself when emt-bs are NEVER, EVER!, supposed to actually DIAGNOSE; that's the job of the docs (at least this is what we were taught). They're supposed to treat and manage life-threatening conditions/injuries, and make a note of all important signs/symptoms which would help them carryout effective treatment, and provide useful information to the EM docs so that THEY can diagnose what's wrong...

That said, I think that even though emt-bs may not even know 1% of what a doc's supposed to know, it's sometimes VERY tempting for them to make statements/assumptions/differentially diagnose such conditions b/c all they read and learned. However, they should humbly realize that they don't know squat about the details of most illnessess as there are sooo many things that could be wrong; there could be a multitude of contraindications to meds they may be unaware of and so could end up doing more harm then good...

Like I said, idiots will be idiots. I don't think someone should assume EMTs don't know anything because of one idiot...if they assume as much, I'd suspect that they're the idiot, not the EMT who's acting like a ******.


And that's how it was with my class too, recognize and treat accordingly, but don't diagnose. Anyone who does more than that as an EMT is stepping outside of their scope of practice and being an asshat. Speaking of which, how much of an asshat does someone have to be to think that even ER docs only know "basic emergency medicine?" Do people even think of all the advanced **** that paramedics can do before they make such inane and inaccurate statements? Sheesh. I think I just had an aneurysm from reading that.

 

[trichomoniasis]

That is funny he'd diagnose himself when emt-bs are NEVER, EVER!, supposed to actually DIAGNOSE; that's the job of the docs (at least this is what we were taught).

see this is exactly the point. Taking the EMT cert class and working as an EMT teaches you to think like an EMT and act like an EMT.

it's counterintuitive to how doctors think and act.

Can someone who has worked as an EMT then go to medical school and learn how to think and act like a doctor? Certainly. But at that point, every minute of EMT training is completely obsolete. And for some people, they'll never be able to get rid of the EMT instincts that they beat into their heads over and over: don't think, go by the protocol, get the patient to someone who can actually do something, so on and so on.

Also I never said EMTs weren't necessary or important, they are, but being an EMT is not a stepping stone to becoming a doctor, it's a detour.

 

[trevagandalf]

LOL, EMT classes are expensive! I would never pay so much money just to get some clinical experience while I can get it for free either shadowing or get paid in a summer intership.

I also had an ex-boyfriend who did EMT and it just greatly affected his grades because he was always on call and had to take the class at night. I think that it is hard to balance undergrad and EMT at the same time! And he really didn't seem to know that much, especially because we were at the anatomy lab and he could not even figure out the orientation of the dissected cadaver.

 

[gotmeds?]

see this is exactly the point. Taking the EMT cert class and working as an EMT teaches you to think like an EMT and act like an EMT.

it's counterintuitive to how doctors think and act.

Can someone who has worked as an EMT then go to medical school and learn how to think and act like a doctor? Certainly. But at that point, every minute of EMT training is completely obsolete. And for some people, they'll never be able to get rid of the EMT instincts that they beat into their heads over and over: don't think, go by the protocol, get the patient to someone who can actually do something, so on and so on.

Also I never said EMTs weren't necessary or important, they are, but being an EMT is not a stepping stone to becoming a doctor, it's a detour.

Oh boy. Where do I begin? That was some of the most ignorant crap I've read in a while. Where are pulling this stuff out of?

I teach a class called "Advanced Cardiovascular Life Support (ACLS)." Every physician is required to take it, from psychiatrists to ER docs. As the name suggests, it deals with the management and treatment of cardiac dysrhythmias and cardiac arrest. The protocols that the doctors follow are essentially identical to what the paramedics use. In fact, paramedics usually do better in ACLS than doctors (even on the written test). This, of course, despite their completely obsolete EMT instincts.

Pre-hospital emergency medicine, no matter how many extra toys and meds you throw into the mix, is all about the management of airway, breathing, and circulation. Go ask one of your doctor friends if that's something they consider important.

 

[trichomoniasis]

Pre-hospital emergency medicine, no matter how many extra toys and meds you throw into the mix, is all about the management of airway, breathing, and circulation. Go ask one of your doctor friends if that's something they consider important.

whether it's important or not is not the debate. ask a doctor (of any specialty) what percentage of their work day they spend in a pre-hospital setting. Next, ask them what percentage of their work day they spend on the ABCs.

i'm not saying it's not important, I'm saying it teaches you nothing about what a doctor does or what being a doctor is like...


edit// and ACLS protocol is such an infinitely small fraction of what an EM doc does during his/her day/night. You're insinuating that all EM docs do all day is run code after code after code. That's like saying in order to prepare for a career as an NFL quarterback, you need to perfect your end zone dance before you work on anything else.

double edit// and you're totally ignoring the part where I made the distinction between paramedics and emt-b, but don't let things like that get in the way of your hissy fit.

 

[thedelicatessen]

Don't you have to pay tuition for these classes and to get certified? If you already have a full-time job or are a full-time student, isn't it a challenge negotiating hours or even finding a job working as an EMT? Though I'm sure being an EMT is a good experience, I feel like it's just one of those extracurricular activities people do to impress the adcoms.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

In fact, paramedics usually do better in ACLS than doctors (even on the written test).

Funny story. ACLS refresher, doing the "mega code." The doctor in the class is running the code. The instructor asks him what he wants to do. The doctor looks at the medic and says, "Ask my medic friend for some advice." LOL.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

I think my experience as an EMT has been great for a pre-med, but it's really no different for phlebotomists or nurse techs or any other pre-med clinical work. Each job comes with skills that aren't directly applicable to being a physician. Each job also comes with experiences that helps one decide if a career in medicine is something they want to pursue further.

The adcom will check the "smelled patients" box and move on. They don't care how you did it. If you want to get that experience in EMS go for it. If you want to draw blood on the floors do that instead. One is not better than the other in the eyes of the adcom.

 

[45408]

LOL, EMT classes are expensive! I would never pay so much money just to get some clinical experience while I can get it for free either shadowing or get paid in a summer intership.

I also had an ex-boyfriend who did EMT and it just greatly affected his grades because he was always on call and had to take the class at night. I think that it is hard to balance undergrad and EMT at the same time! And he really didn't seem to know that much, especially because we were at the anatomy lab and he could not even figure out the orientation of the dissected cadaver.

Actually, my EMT class was free, because an ambulance company sponsored me to take it, and then I got paid more as an EMT than I would have been in any summer internships that I was able to find. And it didn't affect my grades either.

 

[trevagandalf]

Actually, my EMT class was free, because an ambulance company sponsored me to take it, and then I got paid more as an EMT than I would have been in any summer internships that I was able to find. And it didn't affect my grades either.

Lol.. good for you... that must have been a really good deal!

 

[Vvandenn]

Actually, my EMT class was free, because an ambulance company sponsored me to take it, and then I got paid more as an EMT than I would have been in any summer internships that I was able to find. And it didn't affect my grades either.

Yeah mine was a new program I took at my high school during senior year. Free of charge thank god!

 

[pmdc222]

Ha ha, ok. I actually have to for a rotation in the fall so I'll keep this in mind.

I'm bracing for flames in a frightened manner, but I challenge YOU to finish 4 years of med school and a year of residency and then reflect on what you knew before that and how it compares.

(Please don't hurt me...)

haha yeah I'm never going to debate that I will know more when I finish medical school and year of residency. That's just a given. The question was defining basic emergency medicine. In my opinion, one does not have to be a doctor to be considered practicing medicine. I would think that a lot of people would be offended by that mentality (ER nurses, PAs, NPs, respiratory therapists, paramedics etc etc). We are all a team and we are all practicing medicine...just on different levels of schooling. Paramedics are considered healthcare practitioners.

Just to give you an idea, here's a short list of things that paramedics can do in the field, most of which without ever talking to a doctor:

IVs
Intraosseous infusions
Intubation (Oral and nasal)
Defibrillation
External Pacing
Synchronized Cardioversion
EKGs
12 lead EKG interpretation (and activation of cath lab based upon our read)
Needle Chest Decompression
Needle Cricothyrotomy
We have a drug box of approximately 35 medications including narcotics (morphine, versed, valium, ativan)
Some systems allow rapid sequence intubation using paralytics and sedatives.
etc etc etc

Just out of curiousity, what year are you in med school and where do you go? I think its awesome that they are having your ride on a truck -- that should be a really fun time. Like I said, I would never say that a paramedic knows more than a doctor, and I can't wait to further my knowledge by leaps and bounds (I start this fall). But I'd love to see more doctors learn about how much we really do know and give a little more respect to the field.

 

[greytmedic]

As I said in a previous post, I don't think everyone should go into EMS just for experience. One should only do it if they have the desire and dedication.

I will say that as an EMT-basic, one learns basic emergency medicine. To quote the American Heritage Dictionary, "1. Of, relating to, or forming a base; fundamental. 2. Of, being, or serving as a starting point or basis." The things that a person learns as an EMT-basic are the very fundamentals and starting points of emergency medicine. Not just CPR, but performing physical assessments, obtaining histories of illnesses, performing interventions. These are all skills developed as an EMT-b that can be carried into further medical careers. A person does not have to be an EMT-b to learn these skills, they are taught very early in medical school. But that is the point, it is a basis to build upon. Now, the knowledge and scope of practice of an EMT-b is minuscule compared to a physician, but everything an EMT-b knows was taught to a physician as a fundamental starting point. This knowledge is not required to perform well in medical school and is not needed to impress any adcoms, but it is one way to gain some experience and insight during undergraduate years outside of the classroom. If that sounds interesting, it is definitely an option to look into. But EMT-basic is not some back window or magic bean for getting into medical school, but it is a good way to help the community while experiencing something different than school.

 

[SurgeonUFO]

Due to my EMT cert., and working in semi-rural volunteer EMS, I was able to tell my interviewer that I had been the sole person in charge of a patient for close to an hour. I can't see how that hurt.

Also, I love EMS and plan on continuing to work in it during medical school -- anyone know how possible that is?

 

[gotmeds?]

ACLS protocol is such an infinitely small fraction of what an EM doc does during his/her day/night. You're insinuating that all EM docs do all day is run code after code after code. That's like saying in order to prepare for a career as an NFL quarterback, you need to perfect your end zone dance before you work on anything else.

Sure, ACLS is a small part of an EM doc's job. It's also a small part of a paramedic's job. Still, and EM doc who couldn't run a code would be pretty lousy.

I really can't put it any better than pmdc222 and greytmedic did. You were saying that once you're in med school, "every minute of EMT training is completely obsolete." My point is that basic emergency medical skills are an essential part of any doctor's training. Will you learn these in med school? Of course. But learning the basics as an EMT doesn't mean you'll have to unlearn everything. It just means that you'll have something to build upon.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Just out of curiousity, what year are you in med school and where do you go? I think its awesome that they are having your ride on a truck -- that should be a really fun time. Like I said, I would never say that a paramedic knows more than a doctor, and I can't wait to further my knowledge by leaps and bounds (I start this fall). But I'd love to see more doctors learn about how much we really do know and give a little more respect to the field.

I'm an M4. It's part of an EM rotation.

No one respects anyone else in medicine, that's half the fun.



P.S. You absolutely have to be a doctor to "practice medicine." If EMTs/RNs/RTs/etc "practiced medicine" then they would have to share in the massive malpractice liabililty.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Like I said, idiots will be idiots. I don't think someone should assume EMTs don't know anything because of one idiot...if they assume as much, I'd suspect that they're the idiot, not the EMT who's acting like a ******.


And that's how it was with my class too, recognize and treat accordingly, but don't diagnose. Anyone who does more than that as an EMT is stepping outside of their scope of practice and being an asshat. Speaking of which, how much of an asshat does someone have to be to think that even ER docs only know "basic emergency medicine?" Do people even think of all the advanced **** that paramedics can do before they make such inane and inaccurate statements? Sheesh. I think I just had an aneurysm from reading that.

To be perfectly correct: the initial discussion was focused on EMT-Bs. I don't think many kids in college are getting certified as paramedics.

Paramedics would be a whole other discussion.