My dream is to be an academic oral surgeon. If you could, could you give me some advice?

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DentistScientist

DentistScientist

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Good plan. I would also suggest doing summer research with the dental faculty asap. Also, do the ADEA ADFCP. Rank and CBSE is of course, very important in terms of getting into an OS program... Don't undermine those things and just keep doing what you're doing.
 
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God I would hate to be your coresident
 
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EighteenstreetloungePUA said:
I apologize. If you could, could you tell me why you felt this way? I am not one of those guys broadcasting openly about what I do in public. My future classmates will not know whether I do dmd phd. I want to stay quite because the cost of dental education is very high nowadays and they will be sensitive about the amount of loan they have to take out... and they unfortunately will not benefit from me getting my own nih grant cause by that time, they would all graduate.. only one of those who would start in 2021 would benefit from my grant..


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Probably because the research stuff means you won't be pulling your weight with the actual patient care workload.
 
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I highly doubt a joint DMD/PhD is going to make your rank irrelevant. The joint degree students who graduated with me definitely didn't have a red carpet rolled out for them when they applied. Will it help? Yes. To the degree you imagine? No.

Big Hoss
 
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EighteenstreetloungePUA said:
My current combined program directors tell me that my class ranking will be irrelevant for DMD PhD students and I could go into any specialty I want within my school. Another DMD PHD student tells me that as long as I don't get straight Cs, I can go into any specialities. To me, this is unbelievable and I will not rely on this advantage. And in addition, I think going into an OMFS program that is combined with one of most prestigious medical schools is helpful to achieve my goal of becoming the best academic oral surgeon I can be. After I finish the residency, I wish to do a fellowship such as pediatric OMFS.
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mentalis said:
Before I started dental school, I knew less than 1% of what oral and maxillofacial surgery entails. You have 7 years to think about your career goals and they will change over time. Your DMD/PHD program director is misleading if he or she told you that your class rank is irrelevant and you could get into any dental specialty. Everyone I met on the OMFS interview trail was in the top 15-20% of the class. Also, the prestige of a medical school is probably the least important factor when you evaluate the strength of an OMFS program. My advice would be to ask your questions after 5-6 years when you're closer to applying to programs and members will take you more seriously.
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Thank you for giving me the advice despite i am only an incoming student and lack dental education.


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Wait, so basically you have to go through 7 years then another 4-6 years. You won't become a OMFS till another 11-13 years later? That is a long commitment.
Since it is the dual dmd/phd your tuition is fully covered, so that's good. Only thing I could say is to keep a open mind, who knows maybe another specialty catches your attention.
 
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Likkriue said:
Wait, so basically you have to go through 7 years then another 4-6 years. You won't become a OMFS till another 11-13 years later? That is a long commitment.
Since it is the dual dmd/phd your tuition is fully covered, so that's good. Only thing I could say is to keep a open mind, who knows maybe another specialty catches your attention.
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Just thinking about that is making me tired. Seriously though, go into school with an open mind as far as specialties are concerned. You won't really know what you like until you actually try it.

Big Hoss
 
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Highly skilled troll? Are you Billy from Reddit who frequently posts on the Gaming thread?
 
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You do realize that if you get a Phd that in the end it's nothing but another line item in your application?

Your statements above are somewhat contradictory so instead of being defensive perhaps you can elaborate on your actual current status so people understand your situation better
 
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I think you have a unique goal that many of us would never share, but regardless-- there's a place in dentistry and specifically in OMS academia for people like you. The reason you're getting less than stellar responses on here is because you have a dream but you still have a long road ahead of you. I remember thinking about OMS before starting dental school, asking for advice and never hearing the end of the "6 years after dental school... IF you can even get in". It's bull****. Do what you want and go where you think you will be most happy. I personally cannot offer any advice because of how unique your situation is.

When it comes to being competitive, there is no replacement for hard work. Study hard, do well on the necessary exams, keep your class rank/grades up, and do your externships.

Remember, people can make fun of you and joke around but hard work and a good attitude is how you earn respect. Residency is difficult, and people want to spend that time with someone they can trust and someone they know will be a part of the team.
 
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EighteenstreetloungePUA said:
it is possible for me to finish my program in 6 years too.
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That's a pretty watered down PhD. Most science PhD's take 5 years to complete - 4 if you're really good and 6+ is not uncommon. MD/PhD programs advertise themselves as being able to knock a year off by completing both in 8 years instead of 9. I worked with an MD/PhD student who took 10 years because his PI insisted on a "proper" PhD experience. The joint students who graduated with me took 8 years.

Big Hoss
 
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avangusva said:
I think you have a unique goal that many of us would never share, but regardless-- there's a place in dentistry and specifically in OMS academia for people like you. The reason you're getting less than stellar responses on here is because you have a dream but you still have a long road ahead of you. I remember thinking about OMS before starting dental school, asking for advice and never hearing the end of the "6 years after dental school... IF you can even get in". It's bull****. Do what you want and go where you think you will be most happy. I personally cannot offer any advice because of how unique your situation is.

When it comes to being competitive, there is no replacement for hard work. Study hard, do well on the necessary exams, keep your class rank/grades up, and do your externships.

Remember, people can make fun of you and joke around but hard work and a good attitude is how you earn respect. Residency is difficult, and people want to spend that time with someone they can trust and someone they know will be a part of the team.
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Thank you very much for kind words. I am not offended at all. This is going to me a marathon but i am looking forward to it! :)
 
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EighteenstreetloungePUA said:
I have a pretty busy schedule so i have no time for Reddit.


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wow. who doesn't like jello.
anyhow, appreciate the screenname, nice ode to origins of DC lounge sound made famous by Garza and Hilton
maybe you're not as uncool as you make yourself out to be.
GL broham
M
 
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Localnative said:
wow. who doesn't like jello.
anyhow, appreciate the screenname, nice ode to origins of DC lounge sound made famous by Garza and Hilton
maybe you're not as uncool as you make yourself out to be.
GL broham
M
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haha yeah. I loved the music and the vibe there. already missing it..
 
Good luck to you! Your goals sound very worthy and you sound very hardworking.

Have you envisioned what exactly you'd like to do on a day to day basis in your future career (which sounds like still 8+ years away)? I'm asking because that should inform the skills you go about collecting, and not the desire to collect titles. For example, why not do a 4 year oral surgery program instead of the 5 or 6? Rounding through different hospital departments (aka third year of med school) wouldn't do much for you.

Furthermore, your PhD is a time to learn skills that you think will be relevant in your future career as an academic, not boost residency application. Do a project you like and find meaningful and stimulating, rather than wonder whether your project is "surgery" related or not.
 
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CHRG said:
Why would you make such an effort to try to solve society's lack of understanding on what dentists do or do not?
I'm assuming you are incredibly brilliant and disciplined, so therefore solving the misunderstanding would be a misallocation of your precious resources. I was hoping you would say something like find the cure to Sjogrens, innovate in cancer removal surgeries, find drugs that can help post-op tissue recovery, etc.. lol. Idk, you're probably seeing further than I am.
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Thank you. I am extremely fortunate to get into a dmd phd program. But i would have to work very hard to have the chance to accomplish my goals.

Those goals you mentioned are extremely important ones that all of us should work on. I did not want to talk too much details about my research project. :)


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Big Time Hoosier said:
That's a pretty watered down PhD. Most science PhD's take 5 years to complete - 4 if you're really good and 6+ is not uncommon. MD/PhD programs advertise themselves as being able to knock a year off by completing both in 8 years instead of 9. I worked with an MD/PhD student who took 10 years because his PI insisted on a "proper" PhD experience. The joint students who graduated with me took 8 years.

Big Hoss
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MD PhD programs are typically 6 years, not sure what you're talking about. I worked with several and they breeze by the 2 year research program after the first two years of med school, do a quick thesis defense, and go back to finish their 2 clinical years.
 
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Manic324 said:
MD PhD programs are typically 6 years, not sure what you're talking about. I worked with several and they breeze by the 2 year research program after the first two years of med school, do a quick thesis defense, and go back to finish their 2 clinical years.
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Yeah. Some programs are like this. So some PhD only students are upset about these programs. ;)


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Manic324 said:
MD PhD programs are typically 6 years, not sure what you're talking about. I worked with several and they breeze by the 2 year research program after the first two years of med school, do a quick thesis defense, and go back to finish their 2 clinical years.
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You have no idea what you're talking about. You're right, though, about some people earning advanced degrees in two years. They're called masters students. Randomly looked up three MD/PhD programs. Here's what they say.

University of Utah: The Program grants both the MD and PhD degrees to students meeting the requirements of the medical school, the graduate program, and the MD-PhD curriculum. It will generally take seven to nine years to complete.

UCSF: The MSTP training sequence generally consists of the two pre-clerkship years of medical school, followed by four years of graduate research leading to a doctoral dissertation, and the final five quarters of medical-school clinical clerkships.

LSU: During their course of study, students will pursue the medical curriculum for two years, spend three to four years as graduate students acquiring the PhD, and finally spend two years completing medical school for the MD degree.

So, why don't you then tell me which schools offer it in six years?

Big Hoss
 
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Big Time Hoosier said:
You have no idea what you're talking about. You're right, though, about some people earning advanced degrees in two years. They're called masters students. Randomly looked up three MD/PhD programs. Here's what they say.

University of Utah: The Program grants both the MD and PhD degrees to students meeting the requirements of the medical school, the graduate program, and the MD-PhD curriculum. It will generally take seven to nine years to complete.

UCSF: The MSTP training sequence generally consists of the two pre-clerkship years of medical school, followed by four years of graduate research leading to a doctoral dissertation, and the final five quarters of medical-school clinical clerkships.

LSU: During their course of study, students will pursue the medical curriculum for two years, spend three to four years as graduate students acquiring the PhD, and finally spend two years completing medical school for the MD degree.

So, why don't you then tell me which schools offer it in six years?

Big Hoss
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Nope most are loosely defined they do 2 years of medical school and then their research component which is basically until the faculty decide they are ready to defend . Obviously depends on the person and the lab they get into, but they push for them to finish within 2 years and get back to the last 2 years of med school.
Haha you're relying too much on whats on websites. If you actually had experience in the area, you'd know that they push the students to finish in two years and they are allowed to defend after 2 years (which most of the ones Ive seen do, and successfully as they are usually more lenient). Its 2 years med school, 2 full time lab, last 2 of med school and done in 6 years on average. I don't see why combined DDS PhD programs would be any different.
 
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Manic324 said:
Nope most are loosely defined they do 2 years of medical school and then their research component which is basically until the faculty decide they are ready to defend . Obviously depends on the person and the lab they get into, but they push for them to finish within 2 years and get back to the last 2 years of med school.
Haha you're relying too much on whats on websites. If you actually had experience in the area, you'd know that they push the students to finish in two years and they are allowed to defend after 2 years (which most of the ones Ive seen do, and successfully as they are usually more lenient). Its 2 years med school, 2 full time lab, last 2 of med school and done in 6 years on average. I don't see why combined DDS PhD programs would be any different.
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I know of what I speak. I have an advanced science degree and worked for years in an academic lab that trained MD/PhD students. Here's what UPenn's MD/PhD website states AND they provide nationwide information on the matter:

"The goal is to complete an MD-PhD program in 7 or 8 years. Numbers from across the country show that some students finish in 6 years, while others take 10 years (or more). However, the average currently is 8 years (see Brass, et al. Acad. Med. 85:692, 2010)."

Yes, there may be a few who finish in 6 years. They will be outliers and their research background will indeed be watered down, just as I said.

Big Hoss
 
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What a waste. I bet that person is super boring to talk to as well.
 
Go for it! Dream big
 
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EighteenstreetloungePUA said:
:eek::eek::eek: WOW.... I live so far away from California or NYC so I absolutely had no clue.. But thank you for your advice. My current mentor is a very good scientist (which is evident from the fact that he is able to get a faculty position despite the current level of competition among postdocs) and I helped him to build his lab too.. I worked with multiple PIs at my undergrad and at NIH and I think my current one is as good as them. I would love to work in his lab during my PhD years.

I pursue both degrees because I do not want to take shortcuts. Investigative skills, trouble shooting, grant writing, and scientific writing courses are unfortunately not present in my dental school curriculum. Therefore, Ph.D is necessary. Some people may think that I am just wasting my time, but to be an academic oral surgeon, I think I must be clinically competent and be able to spearhead research projects independently.
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It sounds like you know what you want. Ignore the naysayers and go for it! Just try to surround yourself with good people - it's not as easy as you would think as researchers tend to be individuals and not team players. Be sure to pay attention to/learn the softer skills in working with people. That will carry you further than you think... Good luck!
 
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dajari said:
My advice to you is to find a good mentor. Someone who has ethics and treats all people fairly. Ask around and speak to not only former students but also postdocs, lab technicians, and collaborators. I've seen PhD students suffer because they chose the wrong supervisor. Do your homework because you're going to be committing a few years (not less than 3!!) towards your PhD. There are no short cuts in science. A decent PhD takes at least 4-5 years to complete. Anything shorter is light weight and will be questioned by real scientists.
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Woah. I've dabbled in some light trolling myself but this is some absolutely inappropriate, unfair, and untrue libel. Not only that but you've posted it for no other reason than to discourage someone who's clearly excited about his career path.

I can't imagine what kind of cowardly and vile person you must be if this is what you're doing with your free time. I'm no moral authority but I'd love to see your response if someone started posting every untrue rumor about you on a professional message board. Judging by your limited posting history it looks like you've made a habit of picking on individual professionals.

I have no idea where you are in your career, but this habit will bite you in the ass at some point. And honestly, I hope it's sooner rather than later. I've taken the liberty of reporting your post to the moderator. Even periodontists wouldn't stoop this low.
 
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sExodontia said:
Woah. I've dabbled in some light trolling myself but this is some absolutely inappropriate, unfair, and untrue libel. Not only that but you've posted it for no other reason than to discourage someone who's clearly excited about his career path.

I can't imagine what kind of cowardly and vile person you must be if this is what you're doing with your free time. I'm no moral authority but I'd love to see your response if someone started posting every untrue rumor about you on a professional message board. Judging by your limited posting history it looks like you've made a habit of picking on individual professionals.

I have no idea where you are in your career, but this habit will bite you in the ass at some point. And honestly, I hope it's sooner rather than later. I've taken the liberty of reporting your post to the moderator. Even periodontists wouldn't stoop this low.
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"Discourage someone who's clearly excited about his career path"?? You really ought to read more carefully before posting such an antagonistic message to someone. I advised this student to do his due diligence when selecting a PhD supervisor. That's sound advice. That's not discouraging.

As for the other matter, it's only libel if it's not true. I happen to know two students who were sexually harassed by ***** *******. So before you blindly jump to his defense, maybe you should talk to the females who spent time in his lab. I saw the text messages he sent to one of them and it was beyond inappropriate. He is lucky he brings research dollars into the school, otherwise, he'd be fired. He may be a nice guy, but that's what we all thought of Bill Cosby.

And while we're wishing each other things, I hope you have a daughter or sister that works for someone like him. Then maybe you'll understand that things are not always what they seem. So get off your high horse and wake up. And btw, calling yourself "sExodontia" and "Immoral Surgeon" only shows that you're part of the surgeons' boys' club and part of the problem. How do you justify that? Maybe you should upgrade and become a periodontist. At least we do real research (check the impact factors on oral surgery journals vs. perio) and draw conclusions from data.
 
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Nobody is winning any pissing contests by throwing out names and insults. And using your specialties to claim superiority does nothing except create embarrassment for the respective professions. So lets keep the conversation on track and professional please.
 
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Also, why do you want an MD? Why do you want a PhD? Why do you think these are needed to get into academics? Do you think private practice and academics are mutually exclusive? Just curious :)
 
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