Mortgage/rent payment in Residency, especially intern year

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premed8888

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I'll make this quick. I just matched at a program in Pittsburgh and will make 52k/year. My calculations tell me I will bring up (after taxes) $1350 bi-weekly.

I will have a wife that will be UNABLE to work and we are assuming it will be for the entire first year +.

I have looked at a number of places and it appears the average rent or mortgage payment will eat up a bi-weekly payment, so 1350 dollars.

I am assuming my school loans will be around 300-350 dollars per month under the PAYE repayment plan, leaving me with about $1000 per month.

Has anyone else been in a similar situation as this scares the sh*& out of me to a certain extent.

Telling me to just fine a place that is 1100 will not help all to much as I have tried to find places that fit our needs for that much and have not.

Thanks in advance!

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Your income is the average American family income. How are you not able to live on 1 grand a month after rent? Especially intern year, you're likely just going to work, coming home, eating quickly, and sleeping. When people have free time is when they spend money. You won't have free time.
 
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I'm an MS4, so not sure how it works, but can you go into forbearance and not pay the student loan the first year?
 
Your income is the average American family income. How are you not able to live on 1 grand a month after rent? Especially intern year, you're likely just going to work, coming home, eating quickly, and sleeping. When people have free time is when they spend money. You won't have free time.
You sound like a guy who doesn't have a family. It's probably a lot more stressful when you are responsible providing for others as well.
 
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My salary was similar; I have some kids too. My wife does not work (outside the home at least; believe me, parenting our kids is harder than any intern's job). We're on IBR, which I don't think is still available to new grads; but our monthly student-loan payment has been $0 as a result. That certainly helps.

Anyway our mortgage is around $1700/month; my salary was similar to yours during intern year. We made it; you'll find a way to make it too. You find a way to keep your expenditures to a minimum, you find a place to live the best compromise of safety and affordability, and you just put your head down and forge ahead.

Our date nights went from going out to eat after a movie or concert, to cooking as nice a meal as we can afford and watching something on Netflix. It's all been fine; and it doesn't last forever.
 
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Here us my quick math on your situation:
Annual income $52000

Federal taxes:
Assuming a standard deduction of 12600 (married filing jointly), this leaves a taxable income of 39400
You would pay 10% on the first 18150 and 15% on the remainder, for a total tax of 5002.50
You are also on the hook for FICA (7.65%) which totals 3978
This makes your total federal tax burden $8980.50

Pennsylvania taxes:
3.07% with no deductions = $1596.40

Total taxes = 8980.50+1596.40 = 10576.90. Lets call it $10580.

So, after tax income = $52000 - $10580 = $41420 / 24 = $1725 every 2 weeks.

(Caveat - I am a physician, not an accountant, so do not take my calculations as gospel truth.)

I don't know much about Pittsburgh geography, but a quick Zillow search shows that rents for a 2+ bedroom place are $850/month - $3500/month. A one bedroom place can be found for $750/month.

Clearly, you will have to tighten your belt, but it will be fine. Remember, every intern at your hospital is making the same amount of money. Some of them may be single with fewer home expenses. Others may have more dire financial circumstances than you. Hospitals don't pay their residents much, but they do take cost of living in your area into account. I know you said not to just tell you that it will be fine, but it will be fine. Just take a good look at your budget and lifestyle and make it work.

You will get a bit of a raise each year. Also, perhaps after the first year your wife will be able to work, adding to the family income. Residency is also temporary and you will have a good income after you finish.
 
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According to paycheckcity.com, you're bi-weekly take-home would be closer to $1550. Depending on your health insurance premiums, you'd probably have an actual take-home between $1350 and $$1450 or so.

Unless you really have to, I would not recommend putting your loans in forbearance as a prior poster recommended. If you sign up for REPAYE, your interest will never capitalize again (no matter what it'll capitalize upon starting repayment) as long as you re-certify on-time. That's a huge benefit. And, with REPAYE the government will pay half your unpaid interest--that's huge! There isn't that much free money going around out there, but this is one of them. People talk about PSLF, which would be cool if it sticks around (it probably won't), but the non-capitalization and interest subsidy are things you can get now.

I think your monthly loan repayments will be closer to $250 from the online calculator. The only way to get the $0 payments the above poster mentions (without having the large family they have) is to consolidate your loans immediately and apply for IBR/PAYE/REPAYE at that time (when your income is $0)--otherwise you will have to lie on a federal form (which some do, but I don't recommend it--I just reapplied and now they have a disclaimer saying you could get fined/go to jail.

That leaves you with around $1100/month left over if your health insurance costs $400 for the two of you (I think ours is closer to $250-$300 for really good insurance). If it helps, here's my wife and my monthly budget, excluding rent:

$100, water/utilities (I budget high for Midwest winters)
$86, cell phones
$50, internet
$145, car/renter's/umbrella insurance
$50, life insurance
$10, Netflix
$120, gas
$500, groceries
$450, loan repayment (for my wife and I)
$724, savings
$459, car payments

If we didn't have the car and we take out savings, that adds up to about $1500. We spend a bit more on food, so that could probably be lowered a decent amount, and if we only had one car or both cars were old, our insurance would be lower too. (My costs very little because it's only worth $1000, but we bought my wife a new car last Fall). Plus my loan payments are higher than yours will be because it takes into account both my wife and my income.

If I were in your shoes I'd downsize to one car, and you can either take public transit or your wife and drive you to/from work if she needs a car during the day. I'd avoid eating out, and have your wife learn to cook a lot of dishes (if she's going to be home all day, it'll give her something to do/learn--assuming she enjoys it!) If your program gives you free food, take advantage of that.

Also, I am surprised at the rent your finding. I paid less than that when I lived in the Bay Area (for a 1bd apartment) and Chicago. $1350 in my similar midwestern town gets you a very nice, very large apartment or a nice 3bd home. We just sold our home (mortage/taxes/insurance added up to $770/month) and paid extra for a 3-month lease on a really nice 1bd apartment so my wife can walk to work, and it costs $1215/month. There were a lot of places in nice areas for at least $200 less if we looked. If you really need a $1350/mo place, then either you need to change your needs or pare down your monthly spending, as ideally you want some wiggle-room and the ability to set aside money each month into a rainy-day fund.
 
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Where in Pittsburgh? UPMC is paying interns 56K this year.

FYI in Bloomfield or some parts of lawrenceville or highland park there are relatively large apartments/townhouses for $1000-$1100...
 
Thank everyone for your help - I was thankful to find a house that I will be around 1270 per month for - 3 bedroom, large game room downstairs, fenced in yard with a plot of land in the back for a fire pit etc. This payment will be a bit below a single bi-monthly payment so should work just fine.
 
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@Gastrapathy I decided to buy based on how long my residency is and my comparisons between renting and buying. If it was just me and I was looking for a place for myself, I wouldn't mind renting an apartment. But it is not the case and renting a house would be more. I found this house in a very hot real estate area, and I resale shouldn't be a huge deal in 5-7 years.
 
@Gastrapathy I decided to buy based on how long my residency is and my comparisons between renting and buying. If it was just me and I was looking for a place for myself, I wouldn't mind renting an apartment. But it is not the case and renting a house would be more. I found this house in a very hot real estate area, and I resale shouldn't be a huge deal in 5-7 years.

I'm no financial advisor but I would have rented for residency (even a long one). Hopefully the market runs up and you make a killing.
 
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@Gastrapathy Thanks for the reply - There is definitely some controversy over renting vs buying in residency. I am no financial adviser either, although I completed most of a business degree before switching to pre-medical in undergrad. My conclusion was based on a couple factors. Based on the current market, renting would cause me to lose a couple extra hundred per month (or more depending on the area). Real estate in this area is currently increasing at just over 3% per year (which overcomes current rate of inflation). Finally, I like the idea of having equity - as a fallback should something really stupid happen, I have a way to deal with it. Then finally there is the intrinsic value of owning - which some people weight heavier than others. I am not always for buying in residency, but I think each person needs to assess his or her own financial situation and location to find the best option.
 
Congratulations on buying a home!

Hopefully you already know this, but make sure to budget and save for maintenance. We had to replace our heater/AC, which was rather pricey. Because we planned ahead for it, we were able to just pay cash. Even if the inspection went great, things still go wrong.

I was in my home for three years prior to selling it. Originally we thought we'd be there 4-7 years or so Monthly mortgage/rent/insurance was $780/month, but when all was said and done, taking everything into account (closing costs, repairs, updated a terribly outdated bathroom, other upgrades, new plants/trees, profit upon selling, all other costs, etc. etc.) we paid closer to $1300/month. So financially we probably lost a little compared to renting a similar sized home.

We really enjoyed the home we lived in, I was able to walk to work, and it was a great experience. I learned about all kinds of renovations/home remodeling. Owning your home longer than I did will help more to recoup some of the fixed costs of owning (like closing costs), but just realize that the monthly payment on a home should always be lower than renting would be, because you will need to set aside money each month for maintenance/repairs. My advice is to not think of that difference as savings, and instead think of it as money that needs to go towards future home costs. I'd encourage anyone who owns a home to have a a decent savings (we tried to maintain 10% or more of the home value) in case of major unforeseen expenses.
 
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I bought a house in Pittsburgh when I started med school.

Idea being that housing is super cheap and I could save on rent by selling upon graduation.

Here I am 4 years later, selling at 10k more than I paid... but I put several thousand into the house for upkeep/code/etc. along the way.

Overall breaking even and getting my equity (full price) back.

A check I will be very happy to have starting internship.

So yeah, I ended up saving 4 years rent using the buy tactic.

A classmate did the same thing and is ramping up to list this month.

It can be done if the market is right.
 
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I'm no financial advisor but I would have rented for residency (even a long one). Hopefully the market runs up and you make a killing.

I bought a house my first year of medical school because rent was going to be just barely less than my mortgage. 3.5 years later and I just sold it for $30k more than I bought it for. (Did not put any money into the house other than painting). Not always a bad investment! I also purchased for residency.


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I bought a house my first year of medical school because rent was going to be just barely less than my mortgage. 3.5 years later and I just sold it for $30k more than I bought it for. (Did not put any money into the house other than painting). Not always a bad investment! I also purchased for residency.

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Does the $30k profit take closing costs (both as buyer and then as seller) into account? This is often something that potential homebuyers forget to take into account when doing a rent vs buy analysis.

It seemed to work out ok for you (unless your home was over $300-500k, that $30k profit plus the equity you built up should've made up for closing costs at both ends), but typically if the monthly costs are the same I would recommend people always rent rather than buy, unless there are very strong non-financial reasons to buy. You got lucky that you had no major expenses. Even a brand new home can have big things go wrong, and is something buyers need to take into account.

I am personally not comfortable with the idea of buying as a med student. I just can't imagine how much (more) stressful intern year would be if I had to be a landlord as well. I had some classmates that weren't able to sell the home they bought.

Buying a home is like moving--things really suck if they go south. Lots of people "get lucky" when buying a home, but what potential homeowners need to consider is they may not be the lucky ones whose home doesn't cost them anything in maintenance. They could be the unlucky ones that need to replace the HVAC system, a roof, get foundation repair, replace a broken sewer line, pay for a new fence, new garage door motor, etc. etc.

Buying a home is something people need to think very carefully about. For most residents it won't make sense to buy (largely due to the amount of time it takes to do maintenance, or to sit around during a 4hr window waiting for a plumber to show up, and lack of free-time in residency). It's a big risk, and I personally don't think residency is the time to take that risk. While I'm really glad we bought, I'm sure I would have said the same thing if we didn't. I can tell you I would've certainly been much less stressed out this year, when I was worrying over if we'd sell the home prior to moving across the country for fellowship, and if so, if it would be at a loss (taking into account closing costs). When I bought I thought I'd likely stay put for fellowship or go straight to an attending job (and thus have the salary to absorb the loss). I didn't think about moving across the country (moves are expensive!), making a fellow salary, with a baby on the way (we need money for other things now, and my wife won't have an income).

Like I said, it worked out ok for me. I probably ended up spending about $100/more a month vs renting similar small home when all profits/expenses (I had a very long spreadsheet...) from buying the home were taken into account. To me that's still well worth it for the flexibility/privacy/enjoyment. But I'm not so sure it's worth the stress/headache from worrying about selling over the past 6 months.

I just want to make sure others think more carefully about home-buying when they see the above posts about making $30k or living rent-free. It's great it worked out that way for the above posters, but I don't think most buyers can count on that. Typically it takes 3 years just to recoup closing costs. But I still think time is the bigger issue--how many residents really have time to fix minor things with a home, or to even be around in the middle of the day for the plumber/heater guy? I'm a PM&R resident, so I actually had a bit more time than other co-residents, and my wife was often available too. If I were an IM, neuro, or surgical resident with a spouse working heavy hours as well (or if I were single), I'm not sure any amount of profit from a home would make buying a home worth it.
 
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The closing costs are definitely something that NEED to be in the calculations. In my case, I knew about this and negotiated a hefty seller assist so that the sellers are paying well over half of my closing costs - will make it much easier to recoup. If you have some money to put down (which often isn't necessary with physician only loans), the banks will let you ask for an even higher seller assist. Its all about negotiating a deal that you have predetermined to be better than renting - I advise factoring in a "oh sh*& my furnace broke and the A/C stopped working" value into your equation...in my case, it was still better than renting when dividing by the number of years/months I would live there. Estimate all your costs on the high end and see if it works out... I agree with @RangerBob that you cannot take this choice lightly and have to know what you are doing.
 
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all of you exclaiming the benefits of homeownership and equity were very very lucky. Most people who bought during my medschool had to foreclose. whitecoat investor lost a significant chunk as well. If you have one large repair (roof, foundation, hvac, appliances) -- Renting is far safer.

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I have many classmates who bought and most are in the same boat as I am (were able to easily sell). We accepted a full price offer within 1 week of listing. $30k for us is after closing costs. Of course it's not a sure bet and some people are very unlucky when they go to sell. All depends on the market and where you live. Just think it is still a great option for many people, depending on a whole host of other factors of course. Not perfect for everyone obviously.


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I have many classmates who bought and most are in the same boat as I am (were able to easily sell). We accepted a full price offer within 1 week of listing. $30k for us is after closing costs. Of course it's not a sure bet and some people are very unlucky when they go to sell. All depends on the market and where you live. Just think it is still a great option for many people, depending on a whole host of other factors of course. Not perfect for everyone obviously.
This is basically the argument people use for buying lottery tickets and playing slot machines.
 
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I have many classmates who bought and most are in the same boat as I am (were able to easily sell). We accepted a full price offer within 1 week of listing. $30k for us is after closing costs. Of course it's not a sure bet and some people are very unlucky when they go to sell. All depends on the market and where you live. Just think it is still a great option for many people, depending on a whole host of other factors of course. Not perfect for everyone obviously.


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Your classmates all had the same timing in the same market as you so of course they had the same outcome. If you'd all bet on black, this would also be true.

The problem with buying when you are almost certain to move in 4 years is that some random 4 year periods will be profitable after sale costs but most won't. Ending up under water and either taking the loss, defaulting or being a landlord (and usually losing money) are more likely outcomes. A $30k profit isn't worth the potential pain.
 
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Your classmates all had the same timing in the same market as you so of course they had the same outcome. If you'd all bet on black, this would also be true.

The problem with buying when you are almost certain to move in 4 years is that some random 4 year periods will be profitable after sale costs but most won't. Ending up under water and either taking the loss, defaulting or being a landlord (and usually losing money) are more likely outcomes. A $30k profit isn't worth the potential pain.

I think 4 years is typically enough that most people should break even. However, it really depends on the market and the NYTimes rent vs buy calculator can help. Seattle home prices went up 12% last year, so you could have potentially broken even in one year there had you bought at the right time (ie., been lucky). But that kind of return isn't guaranteed again, and values could just as easily drop. I also rarely ever see anyone buy a home of the same level of caliber of the homes they would be renting. If you're looking at renting a 2bd house, then look into buying a 2bd home. Too many people buy (or rent) too much space. My house was 754 sq feet, which was plenty big for my wife and I. I know single residents renting apartments twice that size downtown. Why!!!

As you point out, there's an element of risk, and the big problem most don't think about is most residents cannot absorb that financial risk--which is why buying a home as a med student is (in my mine) a terrible idea. Attending physicians can absorb that risk (and afford a property manager if they need to rent), so you could make an argument for residents buying a home. Of course, that assumes that those attendings don't ramp up their lifestyle, don't buy a big new home, etc.

Just want to rehash for others--my monthly mortgage/insurance/taxes were $780/month. Which sounds great! Especially since similar rental homes were $1100-1300. But $1300/month is exactly what our actual costs were when I factored in closing costs, HVAC ($8000 there), bathroom (pretty cheap at $4000, but I did half the work), landscaping (I went overboard there, but that's my hobby), etc.

As a resident who purchased a very affordable home ($110k), was fortunate enough to sell it fairly quickly for more than I paid, and was in a lighter residency that allowed me to work on the home, I would still recommend the vast majority of residents not buy a home. Med students should only buy if they are interested/willing to become landlords, because they are up the creek if they have to sell at a loss (or can't sell).
 
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Your classmates all had the same timing in the same market as you so of course they had the same outcome. If you'd all bet on black, this would also be true.

The problem with buying when you are almost certain to move in 4 years is that some random 4 year periods will be profitable after sale costs but most won't. Ending up under water and either taking the loss, defaulting or being a landlord (and usually losing money) are more likely outcomes. A $30k profit isn't worth the potential pain.

I bought and made a killing when I sold my condo. All dumb luck and the local market. Renting is definitely safer and more predictable, although buying can have significant upside even if you break even with tax deducting your mortgage interest.
 
This is basically the argument people use for buying lottery tickets and playing slot machines.

I completely disagree. It can be a great (or horrible) investment for someone that depends on a whole host of factors- where you live, what you're buying, prices of rent vs mortgage where you are, what the market is like, if you have money saved up, if you enjoy DIY projects or not, if you have a spouse/roommate, etc. I would not compare that to sheer luck with lottery tickets.


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I completely disagree. It can be a great (or horrible) investment for someone that depends on a whole host of factors- where you live, what you're buying, prices of rent vs mortgage where you are, what the market is like, if you have money saved up, if you enjoy DIY projects or not, if you have a spouse/roommate, etc. I would not compare that to sheer luck with lottery tickets.


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It's a bit of an extreme example, but it's not entirely inapt. People in this thread are saying things like "hey, the real estate market went up 12% last year, so if you'd bought a year ago, you'd be in great shape!" That's a bit like saying "hey, last week's winning Powerball combo was 01-15-18-26-51-26, so if you'd played those numbers, you'd be in great shape!" Well, yeah, but we had no way of knowing that those would in fact be the winning numbers, just like we had no way of knowing that real estate was going to appreciate by 12% that year. You can't predict the market. It could have gone down by 12%. Historically, 4 years has not been quite enough time to stand a good enough chance of breaking even. 5 has tended to be the minimum.

I have a good friend who bought and owned for 5 years during residency, and lost money. When he had to move, real estate in the area had depreciated slightly. He tried to rent the place out, but it took him the better part of 6 months to find renters. After another year he cut his losses and sold it. Then again, he was spared from actually losing money personally on the deal, since his down payment had been a gift from his parents, rather than money he himself saved up.
 
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I guess one thing I don't understand is why people make it sound like the only way to benefit from buying is to at least break even. Renting comes nowhere close to breaking even and there are plenty of advantages to owning a home that are not simply monetary.

I am in the process of buying now, but I fully expect to lose money in the long run. For me this is a purchase, not an investment. I probably will still end up losing less than if I were to rent for all those years, but I'm not deluding myself into thinking this is some money making scheme.
 
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I guess one thing I don't understand is why people make it sound like the only way to benefit from buying is to at least break even. Renting comes nowhere close to breaking even and there are plenty of advantages to owning a home that are not simply monetary.

I am in the process of buying now, but I fully expect to lose money in the long run. For me this is a purchase, not an investment. I probably will still end up losing less than if I were to rent for all those years, but I'm not deluding myself into thinking this is some money making scheme.

Because the mortgage isn't the only cost of buying.

There's also:
Closing costs (average ~3% of the purchase price, ~6% of selling price)
Maintenance
HOA fees
Insurance
Property taxes
Opportunity cost of what you could have done with the money you spent on the down payment.

If you sell for the same amount you paid, "breaking even", you lost all of the money you spent (or didn't earn) on those expenses. In many cases, those expenses are frequently more than you would have spent on rent. You will frequently overall lose money relative to renting unless there is appreciation in the purchase price. The NYT calculator is a clear way to quantify this.

On average, over long enough periods of time (>100 years), the growth of housing prices will approximate inflation. Assuming this happens during the period you own, you'll likely break even or come out ahead relative to renting. But we're not talking "long enough" here. We're talking 3-5 years. If you are buying and today is close to 2010? You'll make out like a bandit. If it's close to 2007? You'll lose your shirt.

It's a gamble.
 
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Sooo ---- sounds like a young family with no kids if I read correctly as I skimmed through this --- a few thoughts:

1) While I know this is no shock, you're probably not the first intern in this situation so your residents/program administrator should be a good source of knowledge, especially on where to/where not to live.
2) You may have to live out in the burbs and drive in or live in a decent but not great area and watch yourself.
3) As a career transition premed with 2 small children in a Dallas burb, we made it on roughly $42K -- wife had the good car, I had the beater which I kept through residency -- even when the AC went out over the second hottest Dallas summer.

don't panic -- you can get very creative -- once you get your license, you can moonlight at UC centers to help your income.
 
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My salary was similar; I have some kids too. My wife does not work (outside the home at least; believe me, parenting our kids is harder than any intern's job). We're on IBR, which I don't think is still available to new grads; but our monthly student-loan payment has been $0 as a result. That certainly helps.

Anyway our mortgage is around $1700/month; my salary was similar to yours during intern year. We made it; you'll find a way to make it too. You find a way to keep your expenditures to a minimum, you find a place to live the best compromise of safety and affordability, and you just put your head down and forge ahead.

Our date nights went from going out to eat after a movie or concert, to cooking as nice a meal as we can afford and watching something on Netflix. It's all been fine; and it doesn't last forever.
SLC, I am in a very similar situation. 2 young kids, wife will not be able to work for at least a few months as we settle in and she looks for part time. I realize the market has changed but did you encounter any issues getting a loan with an intern salary?
 
SLC, I am in a very similar situation. 2 young kids, wife will not be able to work for at least a few months as we settle in and she looks for part time. I realize the market has changed but did you encounter any issues getting a loan with an intern salary?

Home loan? No. And we just sold our home for a cool $70k profit
 
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I don’t understand why people are equating spending more money and losing money in terms of home ownership.

Even if we compare rent at 1k a month, suppose an equal mortgage payment of 1k with an extra 50% per month extra costs(!) making it 1.5k, and I selling at a 20% loss, over six years of my residency I would spend 72k on renting and 108k on buying, but I would get 58k back at a closing pushing me 20k in the black even at 50% overspending and a 20% selling loss worst case scenario...plus I would have been the owner of my own home that entire time

Renting is throwing money into a bottomless pit
Equity is everything
 
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I don’t understand why people are equating spending more money and losing money in terms of home ownership.

Even if we compare rent at 1k a month, suppose an equal mortgage payment of 1k with an extra 50% per month extra costs(!) making it 1.5k, and I selling at a 20% loss, over six years of my residency I would spend 72k on renting and 108k on buying, but I would get 58k back at a closing pushing me 20k in the black even at 50% overspending and a 20% selling loss worst case scenario...plus I would have been the owner of my own home that entire time

Renting is throwing money into a bottomless pit
Equity is everything

Heater breaks and you have to replace it. Did you save enough money?
Closing costs
Property taxes
Insurance
Dealing with house crap while you're on a stretch of brutal calls or nights
Time it takes to sell a house - photography, display, etc etc
Inability to sell a house - very real in less desirable cities

This is why doctors get fleeced. You think that medical knowledge makes you smart. You've literally considered 20% of owning a home and clearly done 0 research. Everyone tells you its not necessarily a good investment but you still think that you're right. Enjoy your timeshare in Boca.
 
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Heater breaks and you have to replace it. Did you save enough money?
Closing costs
Property taxes
Insurance
Dealing with house crap while you're on a stretch of brutal calls or nights
Time it takes to sell a house - photography, display, etc etc
Inability to sell a house - very real in less desirable cities

This is why doctors get fleeced. You think that medical knowledge makes you smart. You've literally considered 20% of owning a home and clearly done 0 research. Everyone tells you its not necessarily a good investment but you still think that you're right. Enjoy your timeshare in Boca.

I am very sorry to have offended you and cast such a dark light upon this profession.

Clearly, I was mistaken in not presenting my thoughts in a long-form dissertation that shows the entirety of all my considerations and research, as opposed to bringing up the pertinent point I wanted to make. Thank you for not bringing up the fact I forgot to attach my bibliography and SAS spreadsheets of my number crunching.

Briefly,

Your heater breaks and you call your landlord to fix it, but according to local regulations and your lease, they have to fix it in a reasonable amount of time, which equates to 4 weeks of you sleeping in 2 sweaters. This happened to me. Might as well do the same thing, save up over the month, and end up owning the heater you just bought.

Of course there are extra costs involved such as insurance, realty fees, closing costs, homeowners association fees, etc, not to mention the cost of having to buy a lawnmower and garage opener batteries! Even at 5% closing costs and 5% realty fees that still put you up 10% in the black in a terrible scenario, and the other fees are annual and equate what you would pay in all the renting "perks" such as renter's insurance, security deposits, and lost productivity due to neighbors partying on weekdays.

Additionally, I have tried to GENEROUSLY account for such extra expenditures by factoring in a 50!% increase in your mortgage payment every month over 6 years....

Finally, the desirability of the region of the city you buy in is not going to change significantly over the 3-7 years you are there for residency, save there isn't a Chernobyl-level social or environmental catastrophe that happens. The amount you "lose" in desirability at resale is the same as the amount you gained in buying at an initial lower price.

I am not saying buying is always the right choice for every situation, I am just saying it is always the best default choice which may have to be relgated due to short residency terms, commuting concerns, maturity, etc.
 
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I am very sorry to have offended you and cast such a dark light upon this profession.

Clearly, I was mistaken in not presenting my thoughts in a long-form dissertation that shows the entirety of all my considerations and research, as opposed to bringing up the pertinent point I wanted to make. Thank you for not bringing up the fact I forgot to attach my bibliography and SAS spreadsheets of my number crunching.

Briefly,

Your heater breaks and you call your landlord to fix it, but according to local regulations and your lease, they have to fix it in a reasonable amount of time, which equates to 4 weeks of you sleeping in 2 sweaters. This happened to me. Might as well do the same thing, save up over the month, and end up owning the heater you just bought.

Of course there are extra costs involved such as insurance, realty fees, closing costs, homeowners association fees, etc, not to mention the cost of having to buy a lawnmower and garage opener batteries! Even at 5% closing costs and 5% realty fees that still put you up 10% in the black in a terrible scenario, and the other fees are annual and equate what you would pay in all the renting "perks" such as renter's insurance, security deposits, and lost productivity due to neighbors partying on weekdays.

Additionally, I have tried to GENEROUSLY account for such extra expenditures by factoring in a 50!% increase in your mortgage payment every month over 6 years....

Finally, the desirability of the region of the city you buy in is not going to change significantly over the 3-7 years you are there for residency, save there isn't a Chernobyl-level social or environmental catastrophe that happens. The amount you "lose" in desirability at resale is the same as the amount you gained in buying at an initial lower price.

I am not saying buying is always the right choice for every situation, I am just saying it is always the best default choice which may have to be relgated due to short residency terms, commuting concerns, maturity, etc.

You didn't offend me. I don't really care if you end up penniless in a ditch somewhere. Have fun thinking you know better than 99% of financial advisors in the world.
 
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I don’t understand why people are equating spending more money and losing money in terms of home ownership.

Even if we compare rent at 1k a month, suppose an equal mortgage payment of 1k with an extra 50% per month extra costs(!) making it 1.5k, and I selling at a 20% loss, over six years of my residency I would spend 72k on renting and 108k on buying, but I would get 58k back at a closing pushing me 20k in the black even at 50% overspending and a 20% selling loss worst case scenario...plus I would have been the owner of my own home that entire time

Renting is throwing money into a bottomless pit
Equity is everything
You think you'd get back $58k at closing because you made mortgage payments totalling $1k x 12 months x 6 years = $72k and 80% of that is $57.6k? Have you ever heard of amortization? Do you think 100% of your mortgage payment goes to paying down principal? You're just providing further evidence that you don't understand the issue.
 
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I don’t understand why people are equating spending more money and losing money in terms of home ownership.

Even if we compare rent at 1k a month, suppose an equal mortgage payment of 1k with an extra 50% per month extra costs(!) making it 1.5k, and I selling at a 20% loss, over six years of my residency I would spend 72k on renting and 108k on buying, but I would get 58k back at a closing pushing me 20k in the black even at 50% overspending and a 20% selling loss worst case scenario...plus I would have been the owner of my own home that entire time

Renting is throwing money into a bottomless pit
Equity is everything
To continue with this, you can't just sling numbers around like this. You have to know what kind of purchase price, down payment, and interest rate we're talking about. So I got curious and crunched some numbers in this Bankrate mortgage calculator. I found that, assuming a 20% down payment, a 30 year mortgage, and their given 3.88% interest rate, a house price of $265,663 yields a monthly mortgage payment of exactly $1000. Checking the amortization schedule, we see that after exactly 6 years, you have paid a total of $46,685.36 in interest and have a remaining balance of $187,215.42. If you then sell at a 20% loss, you get 80% of $265,663, which is $212,530.4. After paying off your $187,215.42 balance, you have $25,314.98, less than half of the $58k you assumed. And that ignores closing costs and property taxes.

But wait! Are you $25,314.98 good on this deal? No, because you made a down payment of $53,132.6, so you lost $27,817.62! And that's assuming you had $53,132.6 in cash on hand after 4 years of being a full-time medical student, which pretty much applies only to those of us who had affluent parents helping out. If you didn't, you can still buy a house, but you don't have 20% to put down, meaning you're going to have to pay PMI, thus adding to the closing costs, property taxes, and other expenses you didn't consider.
 
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Buy - if in a growing market that has some sense of upside and people moving into the area.

As a homeowner, you get to call the shots. That was by far one of the most important factors for me. Learning how to handle my business from scratch, and having no one to blame but myself is **** hit the fan. (And my wife would blame me too...but that is life.)

We paid close to $24k in rent/utilities, etc during my intern year, to live in a safe and relatively easy complex - but that sucked financially.

At the start of my 2nd year of residency we manned up and bought our first condo with 5% down w/ PMI and rate of 4.25% on a 30 yr.

Paid $229k for the home. Comps are now selling for $290k (not even 2 years later).
Our balance is $210k. I estimate we'd conservatively net around +$40k if we sell today, if you take out cap gains taxes, commissions, initial down payment, PMIs, insurance costs, minor home improvements, etc. That's probably around a 300% cash on cash ROI.

If we kept renting for the final 2 years of residency that'd be a total loss of $-75k with nothing to show end of day.

Didn't stop there. Saw the market wasn't stopping anytime soon.
Before 2nd year of residency was up we bought and moved into our second condo.
Rented the first out to a local politician (for slightly more than all my expenses combined - that includes HOAs in the $200s, and the PMI), and became landlords while still in residency.
Our second condo shot up in value by $30k or so, and tenant is paying down mortgage on first (will be paying $4k towards principal alone this year).

Wound up with around $28k in tax deductions in 2017 cause of the two properties, and having a kid. The government paid us out a good amount. Handle my own taxes as well. Like figuring this stuff out.

That's a hell of a swing just for growing a pair. Signed my attending contract also so I am much less worried about these condos. Good for tax purposes. Will keep as rentals and sell if I get annoyed with owning them.
 
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everybody who ever made money buying a house will tell you it's a sure thing and you'd be an idiot to rent during residency. here's some counterpoint. I started residency in 2006 and bought a modest home for $185k. Made a 20% down payment, seller paid closing costs. Seemed like a great idea. Finished residency/sold in 2010. In between, 2008 happened. In 2010, put house on market in March, just before match day, priced at $185k (my purchase price). Slashed and slashed, finally sold in October (after paying old mortgage plus new rent from July on) for $135k. Had to pay closing costs, etc. Wrote a check for $40k to sell my house. Between that loss, mortgage interest, property taxes, insurance, maintenance, etc my housing costs for 4 years were about $120,000. Renting a comparable house in my city would have cost about $1200/month with a total cost ~$58k. Overall lost about $60,000 comapred to renting. All that came due just after moving, starting a new "entry level" job in a partnership track. After selling my house, I had $400 in my checking account.

That's not to say buying is "necessarily" wrong for you, but simply that there is risk, and it's not such a slam dunk decision as some would have you believe. You might kill it; you might take a bath. Or, more likely, renting vs buying is closer to a wash. Just some perspective.
 
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Didn't stop there. Saw the market wasn't stopping anytime soon.
Before 2nd year of residency was up we bought and moved into our second condo.
Rented the first out to a local politician (for slightly more than all my expenses combined - that includes HOAs in the $200s, and the PMI), and became landlords while still in residency.
Our second condo shot up in value by $30k or so, and tenant is paying down mortgage on first (will be paying $4k towards principal alone this year).

Wound up with around $28k in tax deductions in 2017 cause of the two properties, and having a kid. The government paid us out a good amount. Handle my own taxes as well. Like figuring this stuff out.

That's a hell of a swing just for growing a pair. Signed my attending contract also so I am much less worried about these condos. Good for tax purposes. Will keep as rentals and sell if I get annoyed with owning them.
All the house-flippers buying up real estate in 2007 would have told you at the time that they "saw the market wasn't stopping anytime soon." Then, as @B-Bone put it, 2008 happened. You can say now that you saw the market wasn't stopping anytime soon, but that's because in retrospect things worked out for you. Nobody who instead got burned in an economic downturn would say that. The fact is, at the time, you really didn't know. The most recent Powerball winners who just cashed in their $100 million ticket could say "that's a hell of a swing just for growing a pair." Doesn't mean buying a Powerball ticket was a wise decision.
 
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Gosh, truly everyone is a financial EXPERT here on SDN!

I rented for 4 years in residency, had awesome amenities for 2 years at my apartment and then rented a house for 2 years where the owner dealt with a ton of upkeep and HOA problems.

Could I maybe have made money buying a house and then selling? Maybe, but I loved where I lived and was able to focus on learning how to be a consultant physician rather than scheduling contractor appointment and wondering how I’d have someone at home during the day.

There is no “one size fits all” here. You can make it as complicated as you want with math and earning potentials but bottom line do what you want!
 
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I’d never advise a resident to buy unless they had the ability to take on the risk. You have a rich daddy that will bail you out when the housing market crashes on you? Why not...knock yourself out. But on average you will be fortunate to break even around year 4. You do gain...certainly...but you are just as likely to lose...and not many residents can afford to lose. A big problem is physicians tend to be the type of people who think that they are good at everything (including real estate and finances), when in reality most are just good at test taking plus or minus medicine.
 
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All the house-flippers buying up real estate in 2007 would have told you at the time that they "saw the market wasn't stopping anytime soon." Then, as @B-Bone put it, 2008 happened. You can say now that you saw the market wasn't stopping anytime soon, but that's because in retrospect things worked out for you. Nobody who instead got burned in an economic downturn would say that. The fact is, at the time, you really didn't know. The most recent Powerball winners who just cashed in their $100 million ticket could say "that's a hell of a swing just for growing a pair." Doesn't mean buying a Powerball ticket was a wise decision.

No. I said "the market wasn't stopping anytime soon" at closing, which is why I signed. I currently live is a Top 3 RE market right now.

I should have clarified in my earlier post, that I don't live in the same city that I rented my first year. I didn't buy that year because that city's market wasn't going anywhere anytime soon. I'd be paying out of pocket monthly had I bought there. Financially would have been a bad move.

Got a couple decades before retirement, with loans locked in at historically low interest rates, so if the market crashes again, I've got some equity to work with, and I'll buy a couple short sales. Will retire early, imo.

And the Powerball example lost you some points.
 
Gosh, truly everyone is a financial EXPERT here on SDN!

I rented for 4 years in residency, had awesome amenities for 2 years at my apartment and then rented a house for 2 years where the owner dealt with a ton of upkeep and HOA problems.

Could I maybe have made money buying a house and then selling? Maybe, but I loved where I lived and was able to focus on learning how to be a consultant physician rather than scheduling contractor appointment and wondering how I’d have someone at home during the day.

Cutely justified, but you spent 2 years complaining about problems out of your control to the owner - and were at their mercy to fix them on their own timeline, because as a tenant you can't on your own.

I'd be straight up miserable being locked into a lease situation like that.

As for scheduling a contractor...I'm finding it hard to believe that you'd never had a cable guy come by or furniture delivery? It's not that much different.
 
I’d never advise a resident to buy unless they had the ability to take on the risk. You have a rich daddy that will bail you out when the housing market crashes on you? Why not...knock yourself out. But on average you will be fortunate to break even around year 4. You do gain...certainly...but you are just as likely to lose...and not many residents can afford to lose. A big problem is physicians tend to be the type of people who think that they are good at everything (including real estate and finances), when in reality most are just good at test taking plus or minus medicine.

I would not recommend being a landlord while in residency - that can take up a good amount of time.

Home ownership would just come down to renting vs. buying costs spread out over 3 years (assuming its a relatively stable market).
 
We were very lucky, home prices were cheap when we came in, there’s not an awful lot going on in our city economically speaking. And the housing market consists mainly on small 70+ year old homes.

It also helped that on a month to month basis, rent was at least $500 more per month; so we $13k to $36k in terms of home repairs or lack of value appreciation or even some depreciation that we knew we could work with and still come out even financially.

Where we got lucky on the process is that the major city 45 minutes up the road is absolutely freaking booming right now. You can’t buy a 1 bedroom condo up there for less than $800k. Much less a 3bed 2bath home. But there’s a commuter train from our town that goes up there and back a few times a day, and so now our city has a very healthy real estate market and values increased 8-12% per year on average while we were here.

We were picky, chose the nicest home in the best area that we could afford. Paid a little more for it than for the others we looked at, but it was miles ahead in terms of amenities and recent updates; the previous owners had spent an exorbitant amount on the kitchen just before we moved in for example, I have $60k in receipts for cabinets, hardwood flooring, etc. The home was also on a double lot. But the previous owners had wierd tastes in colors and I think that turned a lot of people off, and that, combined with the price being 10-15k higher than most other homes in the neighborhood made it a tough sell. It is a little larger than most, and has a second full bathroom which is unheard of here. But the home was on the market for 8 months before we bought it.

Anyway, we bought at around $200k, we put in a fence (we’ve got a dog) which cost us $2000, and we planned to paint the place to replace all the pink and green and yellow walls.

Along the way, we had a lot of “things” come up. About 2 months in, a big storm knocked over a huge maple tree in the back yard. Very nearly hit the house, and it would have gone right through the roof and upper floor if it had; but it landed in the “side yard” of our lot, House was unscathed. Cost us about $2200 to have that cleaned up.

The refrigerator, dishwasher, water heater, sink disposal all went, about $4000 all told there.

I’ve replaced the electrical service drop and circuit breaker panel due to water damage from a 70year old fabric coated cable that would soak up rain and channel it inside via the breaker when it rained. That was $2500.

Then the basement flooded when a root from a neighbors tree that had apparently grown through our main sewer line grew to the point that it blocked the line entirely. $800 for the plumber to deal with that, and then home owners insurance to cover the water damage to the basement. I didn’t have to pay much of anything to repair the basement. I had some lighter residency blocks right about then, and I’m experienced in Home remodeling, so I did all the work after the disaster cleanup people finished dealing with clearing the water damaged wood and treating the concrete flooring, now the basement looks better than ever.

Anyway, we just sold for a hair over $300k after 3 years. We listed high, but the home appraised where we hoped it would, and we had a litany of offers (7total) at asking price, in the first 36 hours after listing it. After fees, deducting repairs, and considering principle paid down, we stand to walk away with about $70k in our account to move on to the next house.

Had we rented, we would have spent $72k-$78k in rent and had nothing to show for it.

It worked out for us, but we rode the wave of the economic recovery, it won’t work that way for someone buying in our area now. I don’t think the market can support that much more home value increase here. Some, but not another $100k on our place (I don’t think).
 
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Cutely justified, but you spent 2 years complaining about problems out of your control to the owner - and were at their mercy to fix them on their own timeline, because as a tenant you can't on your own.

I'd be straight up miserable being locked into a lease situation like that.
I love this point about landlords finally being brought up. My wife and I bought our home when we moved for my 4-year residency (with potential fellowship options close enough to not have to move). Hot market, no signs of slowing over the next several years. Reasonable house, ~30 years old with nice yard. Previous owners did updates, but we came in knowing we'd need to do some big updates before selling. Wife's a CPA so she did all the math. We'll be fine financially.

But what really sold us on owning was the string of really terrible landlords over the past years. Everything from borderline criminal management companies to very nice and well-meaning but incompetent private landlords. I am pretty handy so oftentimes it was less time wasted for me to actually fix things for the landlords myself (with permission of course) than wait on them to do it. One time the water heater busted and flooded the basement - we lost lots of stuff to that. Landlord replaced the water heater himself while we were out of town that following weekend (we thought they had professionals do it) and two weeks later that one flooded the basement too. It was a string of stress, frustration, disappointment, and constant worry that we were going to be on the hook for perceived damage and/or damage done by previous renters. That did actually happen to us one time - management company tried to stick previous damage to us - thankfully I had proof that the damage was pre-existing. Everyone who says it's better to rent may not have had experiences like ours. Renting is throwing money away, and oftentimes increased stress and lost time due to poor landlords. It's not this supposed promised land of worry-free living that a lot of posters seem to make it out to be.

Owning is certainly stressful. There are going to be big costs associated with it, and yeah you can lose money. But you know what? WE make the decisions when stuff goes wrong. WE make the decisions about what gets updated, and with what. WE get to do work to our house on OUR TERMS (obviously anything big has to go through the bank). It IS a lot of work that I don't always have time for. But you know what, when I have that one Saturday off per week in the spring that I spend doing yard work with my wife, the benefits are coming back to US. Yes it's tiring. Yes it's hard work. But we get to be proud of what we accomplished that day. It actually makes it easier to get up and go back to work the next day. And this might surprise you, but it's actually good for the sex life too.

This isn't to say everyone is going to get the same intangible benefits from owning. Plenty of houses can turn into nightmares (such as @SLC 's house from the post above mine even though it turned out great for him) that can put severe stress on you both now and in the future. But this is why you need to educate yourself before buying, and most everyone here has great advice. I just wanted to add a few thoughts.
 
Here's an interesting graphic I just came across while strategizing with my RE agent about what to do next.

My current debate is whether to dump my rental to pull the gained equity and use that for straight cash-flow or to just continue riding it out...

Housing-Cycle-graphic-final-728x495.png
 
Here's an interesting graphic I just came across while strategizing with my RE agent about what to do next.

My current debate is whether to dump my rental to pull the gained equity and use that for straight cash-flow or to just continue riding it out...

Housing-Cycle-graphic-final-728x495.png

According to that graph, we sold just in time! Maturing exuberance here right now.

Our next stop is just barely into the green.
 
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