Military Medicine: Pros, Cons, and Opinions

[Gastrapathy]

Just so you know, the Navy doesn't expect you to jump right into the second year of residency after two years in the fleet. Most returning GMOs do a 2-3 month 're-turn' period where they repeat the core intern rotations. For example in Peds you do a three month re-turn of wards, NICU, and general outpatient clinic and are then promoted to a second year role. So you graduate a few months after your peers. Whatever knowledge gaps there are seem to be adequately made up, at least in my field. In the third year classes I have never been able to tell the returning GMOs vs the straight through Interns without asking.



This is also a lot harsher than it needs to be. The opportunity to be a real military officer, to provide leadership to a small group of enlisted personel, to go through the first two phases of flight school, and to fly in some of the worlds most advanced aircraft (even in the back seat) are all very cool opportunites that are pretty much unique to being a flight surgeon, I've met plenty of experienced flight docs that still speak glowingly of the opportunities they've had. I'm not saying its necessarily worth the downsides, but comparing all of that to the unique opportunity of tossing someone's salad in prison is needlessly negative.

My views on this topic are pretty clearly laid out in the flight surgery thread in the premed board.

IM would only make people be resi-terns if they hadn't done an IM internship. I went right onto the wards as an R2, 4 days after checking in off deployment.

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[notdeadyet]

Just so you know, the Navy doesn't expect you to jump right into the second year of residency after two years in the fleet. Most returning GMOs do a 2-3 month 're-turn' period where they repeat the core intern rotations. For example in Peds you do a three month re-turn of wards, NICU, and general outpatient clinic and are then promoted to a second year role. So you graduate a few months after your peers.

True, so the Navy accommodates the skill atrophy by essentially having you repeat part of internship, further delaying graduation by a few months beyond however many years you were a GMO. And that's for Peds. From Gastrapathy's posts, it may be specialty dependent.

Regardless, it highlights that interrupting training for a GMO tour either likely causes atrophy requiring you to essentially repeat up to 25% of internship or does the sink-or-swim approach. This is not an endorsement for how a GMO tour is a good or viable alternative to the standard practice of residency training, which is straight through. The military is looking out for the mission, which is its job and what we volunteered for. But to pretend that this does not hamper residency training is sweet lemons.

This is also a lot harsher than it needs to be. The opportunity to be a real military officer, to provide leadership to a small group of enlisted personel, to go through the first two phases of flight school, and to fly in some of the worlds most advanced aircraft (even in the back seat) are all very cool opportunites that are pretty much unique to being a flight surgeon, I've met plenty of experienced flight docs that still speak glowingly of the opportunities they've had.

I find it interesting how often on these forums you hear the "real military officer" line. We're medical corps. C'est-la vie. We missed our chance to be medics or corpsmen or SF or SEALS or whatnot. Some folks have trouble with that and seem to be insecure with the fact that they are physicians rather than "real military officers" (whatever that means). This makes the GMO thing something they can spin as positive because they can be more like "real military officers" than actual fully trained physicians. Score!

But personally, I didn't want to join to be a largely PA-level provider. I want to provide quality services as a fully trained physician, which means residency-level trained. It's interesting that the examples you're giving about GMO opportunities of riding around in planes (or unstated ones like rucking with Marines or diving with US Navy Divers) all have potential fun elements that make for good bar fodder and memories late in life. No denying that. But I'm not hearing the one thing that is the really relevant to the discussion: does interrupting residency for a GMO tour make one a better physician than straight through training? It's not a question of whether it makes you a better storyteller, or a better companion, or even a better man. Does it make you a better doctor? The most positive spin I've heard is that it sometimes doesn't make you a worse one. Frankly, if interrupting residency training had any measurable benefits, you'd see examples of this as a standard in civilian training.

I'm not saying its necessarily worth the downsides, but comparing all of that to the unique opportunity of tossing someone's salad in prison is needlessly negative.

The prison analogy was pretty much for effect: for all the folks who had a fun time acting as a GMO, there are plenty who didn't. And the self-serving sentiment is "well, at least I had an opportunity I wouldn't have otherwise." You can say that about any negative experience. You can spin some positive's out of a prison sentence to. You get the chance to do a lot of reading. You learn how to make pruno, which is a skill I haven't heard from any non-conficts.

Nothing wrong with enjoying time as GMO. Nothing wrong with acquiring stories and memories for reflection later. It's a great positive spin to take on things. I just don't buy the notion that GMO tours interrupting training, as policy, are good for physician development. It's a necessary sacrifice folks make for the needs of the Service. There's a lot of that. But spinning it as being a positive thing for physician development is drinking deeper from the kool-aid than I'm prepared to go.

 

[DrMetal]

I find it interesting how often on these forums you hear the "real military officer" line. We're medical corps. C'est-la vie. We missed our chance to be medics or corpsmen or SF or SEALS or whatnot. Some folks have trouble with that and seem to be insecure with the fact that they are physicians rather than "real military officers" (whatever that means). This makes the GMO thing something they can spin as positive because they can be more like "real military officers" than actual fully trained physicians. Score!

Well said. I might argue (perhaps arrogantly) that your role as a medical officer is more valuable than that of a typical 'line' officer. Your ability to stick a finger in someone's a-hole, diagnose a GI bleed, provide initial treatment and medevac them off the ship is far more important than the role of some twirp line O-4 powerpoint pusher. Your CO knows that, might acknowledge that, and probably respects you (perhaps fears you) for that.

In any case, "real" military officers don't give two shbits about your designation (medical, intel, line whatever) nor about your rank. They care about 2 things: the work that you produce, and how relevant you are in a particular situation.

But personally, I didn't want to join to be a largely PA-level provider. I want to provide quality services as a fully trained physician, which means residency-level trained. It's interesting that the examples you're giving about GMO opportunities of riding around in planes (or unstated ones like rucking with Marines or diving with US Navy Divers) all have potential fun elements that make for good bar fodder and memories late in life. No denying that. But I'm not hearing the one thing that is the really relevant to the discussion: does interrupting residency for a GMO tour make one a better physician than straight through training? It's not a question of whether it makes you a better storyteller, or a better companion, or even a better man. Does it make you a better doctor? The most positive spin I've heard is that it sometimes doesn't make you a worse one. Frankly, if interrupting residency training had any measurable benefits, you'd see examples of this as a standard in civilian training.

The prison analogy was pretty much for effect: for all the folks who had a fun time acting as a GMO, there are plenty who didn't. And the self-serving sentiment is "well, at least I had an opportunity I wouldn't have otherwise." You can say that about any negative experience. You can spin some positive's out of a prison sentence to. You get the chance to do a lot of reading. You learn how to make pruno, which is a skill I haven't heard from any non-conficts.

Nothing wrong with enjoying time as GMO. Nothing wrong with acquiring stories and memories for reflection later. It's a great positive spin to take on things. I just don't buy the notion that GMO tours interrupting training, as policy, are good for physician development. It's a necessary sacrifice folks make for the needs of the Service. There's a lot of that. But spinning it as being a positive thing for physician development is drinking deeper from the kool-aid than I'm prepared to go.

Aww hell, go easy. I don't think Perrotfish thinks that a GMO tour is beneficial towards medical training. I think he just means that it can be a worthwhile experience.

Look, most of us in the Navy are mindful that an interruption in training is NOT the right way to train. I'm sure we'd all rather go straight through if possible, but that's just not going to happen. [Oh btw, the GMO situations is getting worse. Only some 30-40% of interns out of San Diego are going straight through, the rest are going to GMO land. Next year and the following year might be worse, as these classes are going to be larger, with no concomitant increase in PGY2 spots].

So we just have to make the best of the crummy situation, until someone can solve this systemic problem. To that end, I'm looking for a cumfy big deck outta San Diego, for next summer (2014). If anyone's currently a surface doc, please PM me

 

[Gastrapathy]

Well said. I might argue (perhaps arrogantly) that your role as a medical officer is more valuable than that of a typical 'line' officer. Your ability to stick a finger in someone's a-hole, diagnose a GI bleed, provide initial treatment and medevac them off the ship is far more important than the role of some twirp line O-4 powerpoint pusher. Your CO knows that, might acknowledge that, and probably respects you (perhaps fears you) for that.

In any case, "real" military officers don't give two shbits about your designation (medical, intel, line whatever) nor about your rank. They care about 2 things: the work that you produce, and how relevant you are in a particular situation.



Aww hell, go easy. I don't think Perrotfish thinks that a GMO tour is beneficial towards medical training. I think he just means that it can be a worthwhile experience.

Look, most of us in the Navy are mindful that an interruption in training is NOT the right way to train. I'm sure we'd all rather go straight through if possible, but that's just not going to happen. [Oh btw, the GMO situations is getting worse. Only some 30-40% of interns out of San Diego are going straight through, the rest are going to GMO land. Next year and the following year might be worse, as these classes are going to be larger, with no concomitant increase in PGY2 spots].

So we just have to make the best of the crummy situation, until someone can solve this systemic problem. To that end, I'm looking for a cumfy big deck outta San Diego, for next summer (2014). If anyone's currently a surface doc, please PM me

I think they converted those jobs to staff tours before I got out. Your best bet for saying in SD is probably up at CP.

 

[Perrotfish]

Look, most of us in the Navy are mindful that an interruption in training is NOT the right way to train. I'm sure we'd all rather go straight through if possible, but that's just not going to happen. [Oh btw, the GMO situations is getting worse. Only some 30-40% of interns out of San Diego are going straight through, the rest are going to GMO land. Next year and the following year might be worse, as these classes are going to be larger, with no concomitant increase in PGY2 spots].

Are there more PGY-1 slots? My impression was that more people were being pushed into civilian deferments, not the single year --> GMO pathway.

But personally, I didn't want to join to be a largely PA-level provider. I want to provide quality services as a fully trained physician, which means residency-level trained. It's interesting that the examples you're giving about GMO opportunities of riding around in planes (or unstated ones like rucking with Marines or diving with US Navy Divers) all have potential fun elements that make for good bar fodder and memories late in life. No denying that. But I'm not hearing the one thing that is the really relevant to the discussion: does interrupting residency for a GMO tour make one a better physician than straight through training? It's not a question of whether it makes you a better storyteller, or a better companion, or even a better man. Does it make you a better doctor? The most positive spin I've heard is that it sometimes doesn't make you a worse one. Frankly, if interrupting residency training had any measurable benefits, you'd see examples of this as a standard in civilian training.

I don't think the anyone thinks GMO tours help your clinical skills. There is a serious argument to be had about whether an Intern is adequately trained to be a GMO in the first place, and everyone seems to agree that you leave knowing less than when you started.

I DO think the GMO tour is ultimately better for maintaining your clinical skills than the Army's system of pushing residency trained physicians into opperational roles. If you're concerned about skill atrophy, I think that's a good argument for choosing the civilian world over the military, but I do honestly think the Navy's system is superior to the Army.

 

[notdeadyet]

I don't think the anyone thinks GMO tours help your clinical skills. There is a serious argument to be had about whether an Intern is adequately trained to be a GMO in the first place, and everyone seems to agree that you leave knowing less than when you started.

Right on. That's my only main point. It's natural for us to do the sweet lemons thing and focus on all the good aspects of having to do a GMO tour. But since this is a stickie, I don't want prospective applicants to lose sight of the fact that this is not the standard and not best of breed training.

 

[Perrotfish]

Nvm

 

[cautionmaster]

lots of words ...

While nobody should strive for a GMO tour, you are incorrect in most of what you said because you did not do one and you are still in the residency bubble. Good for you, btw, but just pointing out that:

1) the skill atrophy is not that bad if you are going into anything that isn't surgery.
2) you do learn more about being an officer, because you have more time outside of clinical duties to do so.
3) it is possible to become a good physician after a GMO tour, and this is the norm rather than the exception.

Most of the bias GMOs are subjected to is actually by other military physicians who trained straight through and think they are superior just based on that. All the more reason to get out afterwards for residency, because the civilian programs don't care what you did in the military for the past 2-5 years as long as you can hack it now.

 

[wordofthewise]

I hate to stick my nose in here, but this seems the best arena to raise some concerns. I will be attending medical school this fall, and am currently in the process of applying for the HPSP army scholarship. From everything I have read here it seems that I should drop the paperwork and run as fast as possible in the other direction.

A little bit of a back story:
My soon to be wife will be finishing up veterinary medical school in the next year with a loan hovering around 130,000. By the time I finish up med school, my loan will likely be around the 160-200,000 range. All this being said, It seems that the scholarship would alleviate many financial worries that we have about the future. Can anyone chime in about this? Are the downsides to military medicine enough that I should just pursue civilian med and simply focus on financial diligence?

 

[Mirror Form]

I hate to stick my nose in here, but this seems the best arena to raise some concerns. I will be attending medical school this fall, and am currently in the process of applying for the HPSP army scholarship. From everything I have read here it seems that I should drop the paperwork and run as fast as possible in the other direction.

A little bit of a back story:
My soon to be wife will be finishing up veterinary medical school in the next year with a loan hovering around 130,000. By the time I finish up med school, my loan will likely be around the 160-200,000 range. All this being said, It seems that the scholarship would alleviate many financial worries that we have about the future. Can anyone chime in about this? Are the downsides to military medicine enough that I should just pursue civilian med and simply focus on financial diligence?

When doing your calculations, take into account the effect an HPSP scholarship will have on your wife's career. It could cost you a heck of a lot of money! And you should definitely talk to your soon to be wife quite a bit about this. Does she realize that she could end up living alone in some location like Fort Polk while you're deployed?

 

[SeniorWrangler]

I hate to stick my nose in here, but this seems the best arena to raise some concerns. I will be attending medical school this fall, and am currently in the process of applying for the HPSP army scholarship. From everything I have read here it seems that I should drop the paperwork and run as fast as possible in the other direction.

A little bit of a back story:
My soon to be wife will be finishing up veterinary medical school in the next year with a loan hovering around 130,000. By the time I finish up med school, my loan will likely be around the 160-200,000 range. All this being said, It seems that the scholarship would alleviate many financial worries that we have about the future. Can anyone chime in about this? Are the downsides to military medicine enough that I should just pursue civilian med and simply focus on financial diligence?

You should have a serious talk with her about this. I did a HPSP scholarship back in the day, and although the scholarship and stipend was awesome, the years of dragging my medical professional wife around the U.S. were definitely not. Just when she found a place she liked and got established, she was forced to start over in a new town at the bottom of the totem pole, doing scut for established providers. I finallly got out when the military flatly refused to let me have any input about my next assignment.

This was back during peacetime, and everything's gotten a lot worse since then, too. I liked my military days and would have stayed in if I had been single, but it had a huge effect on my family.

 

[wordofthewise]

When doing your calculations, take into account the effect an HPSP scholarship will have on your wife's career. It could cost you a heck of a lot of money! And you should definitely talk to your soon to be wife quite a bit about this. Does she realize that she could end up living alone in some location like Fort Polk while you're deployed?

I appreciate the response. Deployment is definitely something we have talked about. It seems that the monetary incentives can cloud even the best judgment at times. We will discuss the pros and cons more, but its looking more and more like I will be avoiding the military.

 

[wordofthewise]

You should have a serious talk with her about this. I did a HPSP scholarship back in the day, and although the scholarship and stipend was awesome, the years of dragging my medical professional wife around the U.S. were definitely not. Just when she found a place she liked and got established, she was forced to start over in a new town at the bottom of the totem pole, doing scut for established providers. I finallly got out when the military flatly refused to let me have any input about my next assignment.

This was back during peacetime, and everything's gotten a lot worse since then, too. I liked my military days and would have stayed in if I had been single, but it had a huge effect on my family.

Thanks for the advice. I couldn't imagine her putting up with any bs after all she has already been through.

 

[windsurfergirl]

Can anyone advice me at what point one is committed to enter military eg AF? I have now read all these posts and am pretty terrified and disappointed. I am female FP with 9 years of clinical experience- I signed a letter that stated I have been selected to serve, but I have not signed any contract or sworn in. What are my choices now, can I still reconsider?

 

[NavyFP]

Can anyone advice me at what point one is committed to enter military eg AF? I have now read all these posts and am pretty terrified and disappointed. I am female FP with 9 years of clinical experience- I signed a letter that stated I have been selected to serve, but I have not signed any contract or sworn in. What are my choices now, can I still reconsider?

You can back out until you start getting money. But if you have yet to sign a contract, you are still a free woman.

 

[secondchanceSam]

Maybe you guys can offer me some advice

Background information:
I went to a community college for a year before gaining an appointment to Annapolis. The academy thing didn't work out so I ended up going back to my community college where I finished up my studies.

Present Situation:
Due to family problems I am not able to pay for college.I have decided to take a semester off for the fall of 2013 so I can earn some money. I am considering a 2 year army scholarship to help me finance my final 2 or possibly 3 years of school(it might take me 3 years if I decide to major in computer science and go to a university as opposed to some of the liberal arts colleges I am interested in attending).I do not want to do military medicine so USU and the HPSP is out of the question.

Questions: According to the army ROTC website if I take the scholarship I will owe four years in the army as a commissioned officer.


1. How feasible is it to gain a commission in the reserves after my ROTC excursion and go to medical school right after college while serving in the reserves? Do I have to perform extraordinary on the OML to choose if I can go in the reserves or is that out of my hands.

2. I would like to serve as an infantry officer If I am able to gain a scholarship. Is my MOS friendly with respect to allowing me to go to med school or is that only dependent on my unit.



I know this is alot of information but I really dont know what else to do.
All advice is welcome, thank you for reading,

 

[orbitsurgMD]

You are probably not in the right place, since this page is for people who are in the military medicine pipeline, are thinking of taking HPSP or going to USUHS or have already done milmed service and are out.

Most people here think ROTC is a bad way to do your college work if you hope to start medical school immediately after you finish your undergraduate degree. You will get the commission in the reserves but you won't likely get the deferment to go to med school, or at least you couldn't count on it. The Army will likely want you as a line officer, the job they are expecting you will also want. I don't know how you would expect to perform in a billet as an infantry officer while attending medical school. It would be impossible. You would most likely have to defer starting med school until after your minimum active duty service required under your ROTC contract.

There should be a good reason why you left the academy. You will need to be able to explain that.

 

[secondchanceSam]

You are probably not in the right place, since this page is for people who are in the military medicine pipeline, are thinking of taking HPSP or going to USUHS or have already done milmed service and are out.

Most people here think ROTC is a bad way to do your college work if you hope to start medical school immediately after you finish your undergraduate degree. You will get the commission in the reserves but you won't likely get the deferment to go to med school, or at least you couldn't count on it. The Army will likely want you as a line officer, the job they are expecting you will also want. I don't know how you would expect to perform in a billet as an infantry officer while attending medical school. It would be impossible. You would most likely have to defer starting med school until after your minimum active duty service required under your ROTC contract.

There should be a good reason why you left the academy. You will need to be able to explain that.

How am I not in the right place? I would think that since this thread covers some discourse about the military I would be able to find some advice from people who know more than I do and could offer some advice and facts. Assuming that some people who contributed and who will continue to contribute to this thread are prior or present military they would have far more insight into the ways and means of military doctrine then I could possibly have.

After gaining my appointment I suffered a terrible injury, medically disqualifying me from reporting on I-day. I considered applying again but 6 years of college for a 4 year degree that can be completed in 3 years if one does very well at school was a big gamble. I desperately wanted to go to the Academy that is the only reason I decided to work my butt off at my community college to get in and to my surprise it paid off.

I was under the impression that when one serves in the reserves he/she is allowed to go and work but every so now and then one has to drill with his/her unit on the weekends and on some occasions attend training exercises and or events, am I wrong in my assessment? I know plenty of people who are in the reserves and are attending college and who have civilian jobs.

 

[Mirror Form]

Questions: According to the army ROTC website if I take the scholarship I will owe four years in the army as a commissioned officer.


1. How feasible is it to gain a commission in the reserves after my ROTC excursion and go to medical school right after college while serving in the reserves? Do I have to perform extraordinary on the OML to choose if I can go in the reserves or is that out of my hands.

2. I would like to serve as an infantry officer If I am able to gain a scholarship. Is my MOS friendly with respect to allowing me to go to med school or is that only dependent on my unit.

It's been awhile since I did ROTC, but if you take the scholarship you're obligated to 8 years: 4 active and 4 IRR. In order to go straight into reserves you can't take the big scholarship money. Furthermore, reserves would be a bad idea during medical school. The meager benefits you get from the reserves aren't worth risking your medical career!

 

[secondchanceSam]

Thanks a lot. I have decided to apply for an ROTC scholarship.

 

[Ioriscrub]

Actually the Reserves and the National Guard both have special MOS for medical students where you are non-deployable, so going reserve/guard straight out of undergrad is actually pretty safe as long as you're fast about getting your MOS switched.

 

[TheBrownBaron]

Hi! I'm finishing my prelim second year in gen surg and am trying to prepare for the possibility of not matching this year and having to enter the SOAP and accept a position that is not in general surgery, vs. not getting a position in the SOAP and becoming unemployed. I have been reading about military positions, and would appreciate if any one can clear things up for me. I spoke w/ an AF recruiter and he said that the military match is only for their students, and/or those who did military during medical school. Also, that I could only become military associated once in a categorical residency in a sponsored field, and that once completing that residency, I could apply through the military for a second residency. Is this truly the case? The reason I am in the preliminary predicament is because I did not pass Step 2CK the first time that I took it. Will this factor into the military for consideration? If I am unable to match in surgery through the military, will I be assigned to a specialty, and what if I do not like that specialty? Does time as a GMO increase your chances of matching into your preferred specialty?

 

[deuist]

Also, that I could only become military associated once in a categorical residency in a sponsored field, and that once completing that residency, I could apply through the military for a second residency. Is this truly the case?

Is that to say that you must complete a civilian residency and then apply to join the military as a military resident? Not going to happen. If you join as a direct accession (after residency) or FAP (during residency) the expectation is that you would complete a tour in your specialty. Afterward, you could apply for a second residency in the military.

The reason I am in the preliminary predicament is because I did not pass Step 2CK the first time that I took it. Will this factor into the military for consideration?

Maybe

If I am unable to match in surgery through the military, will I be assigned to a specialty, and what if I do not like that specialty?

You can only be forced into GMO or flight surgery. You will not be forced into a residency you do not want.

Does time as a GMO increase your chances of matching into your preferred specialty?

Yes, you get extra points for the military match by completing a utilization tour.

 

[The Buff OP]

Hey y'all, can I see a new long list of pros and cons on here? Most of the list are from a while back. If guys from different branches can make their own list that would be cool.

 

[deuist]

Hey y'all, can I see a new long list of pros and cons on here? Most of the list are from a while back. If guys from different branches can make their own list that would be cool.

Sadly, nothing has changed since that original list was published, except that CME funding has dried up completely.

 

[The Buff OP]

Sadly, nothing has changed since that original list was published, except that CME funding has dried up completely.

Hmm lol I was reading the beginning of the thread some people put their views then it turned into an argument. Not much pros and cons were said.

If I end up still wanting to join the military I'm going through the FAP route.
I always wanted join the military, but like most people I have no idea how the military really is. Some of the reasons why I still want to join the military (as an officer) is because the kid in me feels like wearing the uniform and being in the military is respectful and cool. In addition, they say you get to travel the world and stuff. I would like to serve my country and help out troops out there (I want to go into surgery).

The things that turn me away are:

• If I end up in a crappy location
• Really long deployments (one year)
• You earn 50% less than civilian physicians
• You don't get that much variety of patients.

Are there any reasons why I shouldn't go into military medicine? The Air Force says for my height the max weight is 180 LBs I'm a bodybuilder and I surpass that weight requirement would that be a problem?

 

[Snowdon48]

The Air Force says for my height the max weight is 180 LBs I'm a bodybuilder and I surpass that weight requirement would that be a problem?

I can only really speak to this question since I am AF HPSP MS1. The AF will take body fat into account. I was also technically over the weight limit but my body fat was well within the limits.

Edit: Do you even lift brah?

 

[The Buff OP]

I can only really speak to this question since I am AF HPSP MS1. The AF will take body fat into account. I was also technically over the weight limit but my body fat was well within the limits.

Hmmm I think it will also depend if I'm in my bulking phase or cutting phase. When I tried to join the Marine Corps when I was 18 they wouldn't take me because of my weight too, but back then I was barely into lifting and was just a chubster.

Edit: Do you even lift brah?

Yes.

 

[HighPriest]

The Army will "tape" you, and in the worst case scenario someone will make a decision as to whether you're muscle or porkins. I have worked with guys who were well over weight, but lifted a lot, and they always passed their tape. You can usually look up those reqs as well, if you want to make sure you'll pass.

 

[The Buff OP]

The Army will "tape" you, and in the worst case scenario someone will make a decision as to whether you're muscle or porkins. I have worked with guys who were well over weight, but lifted a lot, and they always passed their tape. You can usually look up those reqs as well, if you want to make sure you'll pass.

Do medical students or residents go through the same OCS as others?

 

[Qurmish]

Do medical students or residents go through the same OCS as others?

No. Medical officers ascend through a process called "direct commission," which provides constructive service credit (4 years of medical school count towards advancement and start you off as an O-3---Captain in Army/AF and Lieutenant in Navy.) This program does not have an entrance and assessment process like OCS, ROTC, or an academy.

There is branch specific training that you will need to complete, but it is very different from OCS. OCS requires that you go through the normal training required for enlisted personnel (basic combat training or boot camp) and then try out as an officer candidate. Someone more experienced than I could tell you more about the branch specific training programs or you could search around the forum for more information.

 

[The Buff OP]

No. Medical officers ascend through a process called "direct commission," which provides constructive service credit (4 years of medical school count towards advancement and start you off as an O-3---Captain in Army/AF and Lieutenant in Navy.) This program does not have an entrance and assessment process like OCS, ROTC, or an academy.

There is branch specific training that you will need to complete, but it is very different from OCS. OCS requires that you go through the normal training required for enlisted personnel (basic combat training or boot camp) and then try out as an officer candidate. Someone more experienced than I could tell you more about the branch specific training programs or you could search around the forum for more information.

Thanks for the info. So we get the watered-down version of OCS? If I end making my mind up I want to the FAP route. Does the military take any specialties or they take whatever is in need?

 

[Kilgoretrout 65]

Thanks for the info. So we get the watered-down version of OCS? If I end making my mind up I want to the FAP route. Does the military take any specialties or they take whatever is in need?

They only do FAP for what they need, might vary between services. Would also be hard to predict 4 yrs out.

 

[The Buff OP]

They only do FAP for what they need, might vary between services. Would also be hard to predict 4 yrs out.

Well that sucks. I guess if I were to do plastics (integrated program) with a cosmetic fellowship they will not take me in, but lets not kid ourselves if I did a cosmetic fellowship I would choose the big bucks in the civilian world lol.

 

[TheBrownBaron]

Thank you Deuist for your answers. I have a few other questions: Will doing any years of research in the coming year impact my application? Is there a way for a civilian to apply for the military match, or would I have to join the military first even though I have not finished training?

 

[deuist]

Will doing any years of research in the coming year impact my application?

Research does give bonus points for the match.

Is there a way for a civilian to apply for the military match, or would I have to join the military first even though I have not finished training?

Not going to happen as a civilian

 

[deuist]

The things that turn me away are:

• If I end up in a crappy location
• Really long deployments (one year)
• You earn 50% less than civilian physicians
• You don't get that much variety of patients.

Are there any reasons why I shouldn't go into military medicine?

You just listed 4.

 

[The Buff OP]

You just listed 4.

I guess a lot of guys hate it then. There is this one thread where guys are putting down how many days they have left on their service.

 

[Cooperd0g]

You have to want to be in the military and accept the limitations that come with it. If you don't actually want to be in the military then don't join.

 

[The Buff OP]

You have to want to be in the military and accept the limitations that come with it. If you don't actually want to be in the military then don't join.

It's a half and half for me. I always wanted to join the military since I was a kid, my Marine uncle was a big influence on me. Furthermore, after seeing what happens as a medical officer I don't like it (see post #483). Nevertheless, If I were to just get my bachelors degree and go through normal OCS and not go into medical school, I would be fine getting a nice MOS. Pilot

 

[Cooperd0g]

As a pilot you will still face crappy locations, possible year long deployments and average 2-5 hour of brief and debrief for every hour of flying (depending on aircraft). Every civilian trained pilot will envy you yet also think that their training and experience is just as good as yours when it is time to apply for airline gigs. If you decide to leave the military as a pilot you will be half way to retirement and throwing that away. Airlines get you a life of constant travel and a 50% pay CUT for a least a year and unless you get one of the top companies, if they are hiring, it will be several years to get back to where you were for income in the military. You could always go pilot and then switch over to doc all within the military ...

Ask me how I know.

 

[The Buff OP]

As a pilot you will still face crappy locations, possible year long deployments and average 2-5 hour of brief and debrief for every hour of flying (depending on aircraft). Every civilian trained pilot will envy you yet also think that their training and experience is just as good as yours when it is time to apply for airline gigs. If you decide to leave the military as a pilot you will be half way to retirement and throwing that away. Airlines get you a life of constant travel and a 50% pay CUT for a least a year and unless you get one of the top companies, if they are hiring, it will be several years to get back to where you were for income in the military. You could always go pilot and then switch over to doc all within the military ...

Thanks for the information. If I were to be a pilot in the Air Force I don't know if I would retire. What makes a pilot want to retire and work for a civilian airline? I'm still 100% I want to become a medical doctor. If something went wrong and I only ended up with a bachelor's I would do the military or go to grad school.

Ask me how I know.

How do you know? Do you even lift?

 

[Perrotfish]

The things that turn me away are:

• If I end up in a crappy location
• Really long deployments (one year)
• You earn 50% less than civilian physicians
• You don't get that much variety of patients.

To address on of these 4 concerns, that you earn less that 50% of what your colleagues do: I don't think this is a good reason not to join, for reasons I've gone over before in other threads. The number you need to care about is your after tax earnings adjusted for debt, over the period of your obligation. Unless you go into an insanely well paid specialty AND go to a state school, we are at the point where you will at least break even with your peers and likely significantly surpass them in terms of real spendable wealth. The lack of debt, the massive tax shelter, the extra pay in residency, and the various small extras add up to what is overall a better financial deal

What you forgot to be concerned about: The military match, the fact that your spouse might have a job that can't move with you, and way above average amount of inane paperwork that you need to do.

 

[The Buff OP]

To address on of these 4 concerns, that you earn less that 50% of what your colleagues do: I don't think this is a good reason not to join, for reasons I've gone over before in other threads. The number you need to care about is your after tax earnings adjusted for debt, over the period of your obligation. Unless you go into an insanely well paid specialty AND go to a state school, we are at the point where you will at least break even with your peers and likely significantly surpass them in terms of real spendable wealth. The lack of debt, the massive tax shelter, the extra pay in residency, and the various small extras add up to what is overall a better financial deal

Thanks for you long answer.
I wouldn't mind a deployment, thats kind of the reason why most of us should join to take care of the men and women who are fighting for our country.
I'm shooting for orthopedics, cardiothoracics and plastics (integrated programs). I just love surgery. I would love to shoot for neurosurgery, but I don't know if I can, will see.
Edit: One of those specialties.

What you forgot to be concerned about: The military match, the fact that your spouse might have a job that can't move with you, and way above average amount of inane paperwork that you need to do.

Doh! That's a big one. I'm not in a relationship at the moment. Knowing I really want to end up in surgery and those long hours that will happen in residency, I want to find a women who will be in the same field as me (doctor, PA, nurse).

 

[Perrotfish]

It's a half and half for me. I always wanted to join the military since I was a kid, my Marine uncle was a big influence on me. Furthermore, after seeing what happens as a medical officer I don't like it (see post #483). Nevertheless, If I were to just get my bachelors degree and go through normal OCS and not go into medical school, I would be fine getting a nice MOS. Pilot

My personal opinion: beware of any plan that ties you to one employer, particularly when that employer is the military. Also remember that for the line promotions aren't automatic like they are for the medical corps: there are a lot of salmon trying get up that river, and only a few of them will make it to the spawning grounds (O-6)

 

[Perrotfish]

Doh! That's a big one. I'm not in a relationship at the moment. Knowing I really want to end up in surgery and those long hours that will happen in residency, I want to find a women who will be in the same field as me (doctor, PA, nurse).

A nurse is in the same field as a doctor in the sense that a lion is in the same field as a gazelle. You may share the scenery, but you're nuts if you think you relate to each other except in one very specific way.

 

[The Buff OP]

My personal opinion: beware of any plan that ties you to one employer, particularly when that employer is the military. Also remember that for the line promotions aren't automatic like they are for the medical corps: there are a lot of salmon trying get up that river, and only a few of them will make it to the spawning grounds (O-6)

View attachment 179409

 

[The Buff OP]

A nurse is in the same field as a doctor in the sense that a lion is in the same field as a gazelle. You may share the scenery, but you're nuts if you think you relate to each other except in one very specific way.

Mind blowing me over here and sheet. lol I volunteer at hospital events and most of the time I chat with the nurses (they are in my team) and most have told me they wouldn't marry a doctor. But they didn't say they wouldn't bang one.

 

[MaximusD]

Married to a nurse -- we don't really talk a lot of shop.

 

[callendm]

I have been a staff physician in the military for a few years now. I love it. Seeing a post that to paraphrase, “…I want to be this exact type of super specialized doctor that has minimal applicability to the department of defense…” is an extremely simplistic, unattainable, and poorly planned career choice. Now jumping off my soapbox, I will provide four pro and cons as balancing measures to digest

PROS.

-- I have no debt. I do now and have been before paid a lot independent of just being staff (ie during GME). For example, if you sign a multi-year bonus prior to starting fellowship you can easily be making almost $200,000 a year and be in training.

-- I hold an academic position that would not be offered to me this junior in my career at a major medical center (research, university, and teaching hospital) as exists in the military.

-- I am relatively early in my career. Despite such I have acquired both operational (deployed, forces command) and hospital level administrative and leadership skills above. There is much more to being a physician than treating patients. This includes oversight of trainees, research, management, administrative, etc.

-- Nearing the end of the first decade of my medical career I have ultimately directed where and what I will do. If this did not happen I would have gotten out after only 8 years of service (32 years old). The perceived delay would have been inconsequential with respect to a 30-40+ year career as a civilian.

CONS.

-- I have spent time away from my family to include but not limited to training rotations, military based schooling, and deployments. This includes missing the birth of one of my children. This has caused more than a little personal strife.

-- My spouse has had to take a few pauses from her occupational endeavors to support my career. However, she has also taken advantage of these pauses.

-- Your immediate and early career path will not be merit based. This is tough to swallow. To provide some contextual background I was elected AOA during medical school. As a civilian I would have had a very high degree of control with respect to my initial and follow on training. I asked to do residency at one location and was given another. When I applied for a specific and unique fellowship I was not selected above a near peer who had served a utilization tour. Despite academic accolades prior to medical school, during medical school, and during residency, my application was outmatched based on time served. Ultimately I controlled what and where I am. However, this was not without time.

-- A profession of arms may not always be anyone’s cup of tea. Deployments, short notice moves, non medical based training, etc.

You may viscerally have some contempt towards my statements. However, these are only "facts" through my eyes. I became a doctor to follow my mother as a provider. I became an officer to follow my father’s career as a pilot. I am young, doing exactly what I want as a physician, living exactly where I want, I own a house in a very nice neighborhood, and I have a loving family. I could not ask for anything more. If you find the possibility of deployment and lack of control as I have outlined absolutely off putting I would highly recommend against a medical military career. Otherwise, if you are interested go for it and make the most out of it. It may be a bumpy ride, just hold on!