Army MC/DC LTC promotion list out

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turkish

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This year's LTC list is out. Your commanders have it but close/hold and can't counsel you until Tuesday. List will be published Wednesday. This came out in a MILPER this week, just putting it out there for everybody.

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good luck to those it applies to. I've given up trying to predict O-5 and O-6 boards. probably will be the same song, different verse this year-- discriminators being deployments, operational tours, "advancing degrees of responsibility," military education, etc etc. but then you'll see people selected who have never deployed or others passed over who have done it all.

--your friendly neighborhood terminal O-5 caveman
 
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good luck to those it applies to. I've given up trying to predict O-5 and O-6 boards. probably will be the same song, different verse this year-- discriminators being deployments, operational tours, "advancing degrees of responsibility," military education, etc etc. but then you'll see people selected who have never deployed or others passed over who have done it all.

--your friendly neighborhood terminal O-5 caveman

Preliminary report is low selection rate. If you are MAJ in fellowship program going to LTC board you will likely not get pick up. It is better to be Primary doc doing operational stuff. Army wants highly trained doctors in hospitals to get out...HPSPer think before joining!!
 
Preliminary report is low selection rate. If you are MAJ in fellowship program going to LTC board you will likely not get pick up. It is better to be Primary doc doing operational stuff. Army wants highly trained doctors in hospitals to get out...HPSPer think before joining!!

Most HPSPer's are out the door before they're even close to picking up O-5. Most just pin on O-4 and leave. Your message is more towards those who want a career in the military, which retention rates show is not the norm.
 
--your friendly neighborhood terminal O-5 caveman
Liberating, isn't it? I used to agonize over the phrasing of block 41. Now? It took me less than 10 min to put together my last fitrep.

Once you've eaten all the carrots, the only thing that matters is stick avoidance. :)
 
Liberating, isn't it? I used to agonize over the phrasing of block 41. Now? It took me less than 10 min to put together my last fitrep.

Once you've eaten all the carrots, the only thing that matters is stick avoidance. :)

Dare you to put - "enh, I showed up in a clean uniform and shaved. What more do you want?"
 
Most HPSPer's are out the door before they're even close to picking up O-5. Most just pin on O-4 and leave. Your message is more towards those who want a career in the military, which retention rates show is not the norm.
If it only if HPSP/USUHS group falls into only two groups. Some great doctors are really undecided at end of obligation (esp USUHS) and when we hit 13 years and don't get pick even after deployment, good OERs and director of subspecialty you wonder why we should stay until retirment. I see my mentor leave this way and it is really demoralizing.
 
Any idea what the selection rate was?

MC overall: Below Zone: 1.5% Primary Zone: 68.4% Above Zone: 43.7%

2 below zone pickups-- 1 EM, 1 Peds Subspecialist

they haven't released discriminators yet, assume that will come out in the next week or so.

--your friendly neighborhood the dentists fared much better caveman
 

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decoder for AOCs for those people who don't have them memorized... ;)

--your friendly neighborhood ain't got time for that caveman
 

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Above the zone of 40% is just unheard of...It is actually too high as rest of army (non-MC) is really low (<2%). I know few doctors who got promoted above the zone despite not correcting original deficiency that prevented from getting promoted in the zone. If a doctor does not get promoted above the zone and needs to stay in to pay back years..does he go promotion board every year until he gets promoted? I think rest of army..if you dont get promoted above the zone you are out.
 
Above the zone of 40% is just unheard of...It is actually too high as rest of army (non-MC) is really low (<2%). I know few doctors who got promoted above the zone despite not correcting original deficiency that prevented from getting promoted in the zone. If a doctor does not get promoted above the zone and needs to stay in to pay back years..does he go promotion board every year until he gets promoted? I think rest of army..if you dont get promoted above the zone you are out.

In all services, you are allowed to stay for as long as you want once you hit O-4. Until you hit O-4 if you don't get promoted in zone they kick you out. After you hit O-4 you are allowed to continue on for up to your full 30 years unless you do something bad enough to actually get fired. Theoretically every O-4 who doesn't make O-5 has always gone to the board, every year, until they promoted or retired. However, for my entire lifetime, the military has considered above zone boards separately from in zone boards, and no more than a few percent of the officers who missed their in zone window would ever be allowed to pick up above zone. Doctors rarely face the issue of higher tenure (what they call it when you don't get promoted in zone and get kicked out) because you need an actual recorded disciplinary problem not to hit O-4 in the medical corps, but I have seen it happen and yes, they do keep you for the duration of your obligation.

As for why the above zone promotion rate is so high: I was told that this year there was a conscious, tri-service change in the above zone promotion policy. I am not at all clear about whether it applies to everyone or just the medical corps, but we were told that they beginning this year they (theoretically) ended the concept of in zone vs above zone promotion. From this point on the board is supposed to consider anyone in zone and above zone equally, only below zone officers should need to meet a higher standard for promotion. It was meant to allow people to develop their careers more organically, rather than worrying that they have to do a leadership position right now because they're two years away from being in zone.
 
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In all services, you are allowed to stay for as long as you want once you hit O-4. Until you hit O-4 if you don't get promoted in zone they kick you out. After you hit O-4 you are allowed to continue on for up to your full 30 years unless you do something bad enough to actually get fired. Theoretically every O-4 who doesn't make O-5 has always gone to the board, every year, until they promoted or retired.

are you sure? I know firsthand of an O-4 who was passed over twice and offered early retirement who is getting out next summer. I thought if you were passed over twice they had to figure out wtf to do with you. hence the above the zone retention rates-- they don't want people to escape that easily. once you hit O5 you can be on cruise control.

--your friendly neighborhood done with the promotion board circus caveman
 
In all services, you are allowed to stay for as long as you want once you hit O-4. Until you hit O-4 if you don't get promoted in zone they kick you out. After you hit O-4 you are allowed to continue on for up to your full 30 years unless you do something bad enough to actually get fired. Theoretically every O-4 who doesn't make O-5 has always gone to the board, every year, until they promoted or retired. However, for my entire lifetime, the military has considered above zone boards separately from in zone boards, and no more than a few percent of the officers who missed their in zone window would ever be allowed to pick up above zone. Doctors rarely face the issue of higher tenure (what they call it when you don't get promoted in zone and get kicked out) because you need an actual recorded disciplinary problem not to hit O-4 in the medical corps, but I have seen it happen and yes, they do keep you for the duration of your obligation.

As for why the above zone promotion rate is so high: I was told that this year there was a conscious, tri-service change in the above zone promotion policy. I am not at all clear about whether it applies to everyone or just the medical corps, but we were told that they beginning this year they (theoretically) ended the concept of in zone vs above zone promotion. From this point on the board is supposed to consider anyone in zone and above zone equally, only below zone officers should need to meet a higher standard for promotion. It was meant to allow people to develop their careers more organically, rather than worrying that they have to do a leadership position right now because they're two years away from being in zone.

This isn't quite correct. See 10 US Code 6383 as your reference for statutory service limits for officers in the Navy. (Officers don't have high year tenure).

There is a small caveat for LCDR's because of a rule that if you hit 18 years before FOS to CDR x 2 that they will let you stay until 20. If you are a regular line officer with regular rates of promotion then you will hit that mark. You don't get to stay until 30 though. If you're a medical corps officer you will hit FOS x2 prior to 18 years (because we come in at O3, leading to FOS at ~12 yrs) so you have to make O5 to guarantee yourself 20 yrs.

I would assume the USC is similar for the other Services.

In regards to promotion zones: the removal of the above zone annotation at Naval promotion Boards started in January of 2016. This is across the Naval Service and not just medical corps. Whether other Services have followed suit I have no clue. The reason for this is the AZ mark was seen as a scarlet letter during the promotion board (there wasn't a separate board for AZ) and very few would be selected (because why select someone who wasn't good enough to get selected the first time...). The hope was that removing the zone annotation would allow those who took circuitous paths a chance to make O4 in the line where there are very rigid "this is the right way to do things" paths to making O4 and future command (for example in aviation: if you don't go to a training squadron after your first operational tour you will have an uphill battle to be selected to O4).

The removal of the annotation has likely had some effect on the increase in the percentage of above zone selectees, in fact I think more than 50% of the O6 selects this year were from the AZ group in the Navy. It's possible that the Army has enacted similar changes which caused a similar swing in their statistics as well. For those in the AZ group this is great news, for those who aren't it means that promotions are likely going to be delayed as every AZ select takes away from an IZ select. (The conspiracy theorist in me says this is all just a ploy to delay paying people more money just like the shift many years ago from promoting a higher percentage every month to now just 3% per month in the Navy).



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It's possible that the Army has enacted similar changes which caused a similar swing in their statistics as well. For those in the AZ group this is great news, for those who aren't it means that promotions are likely going to be delayed as every AZ select takes away from an IZ select. (The conspiracy theorist in me says this is all just a ploy to delay paying people more money just like the shift many years ago from promoting a higher percentage every month to now just 3% per month in the Navy).

the army above zone/primary zone numbers this year are pretty similar to 2016 (48% AZ, 65% PZ). in 2015 the AZ was 27%, PZ 63%. so army wise there a fairly significant AZ jump a couple years ago, but it's been stable (for an N of 2 years at least). in my experience the people who get screwed are the ones who go straight from residency to fellowship and don't get a chance for "leadership experience" or operational time.

--your friendly neighborhood utilization/deployment but no admin caveman
 
the army above zone/primary zone numbers this year are pretty similar to 2016 (48% AZ, 65% PZ). in 2015 the AZ was 27%, PZ 63%. so army wise there a fairly significant AZ jump a couple years ago, but it's been stable (for an N of 2 years at least). in my experience the people who get screwed are the ones who go straight from residency to fellowship and don't get a chance for "leadership experience" or operational time.

--your friendly neighborhood utilization/deployment but no admin caveman
Agreed. There are increasing number of reasons not to join military. Medical students don't look at low ISP rates of sub specialist, decreasing promotional potential etc before signing for HPSP.

Bottom line is Army does not care about you. Medical corp is cost generating entity and big army is trying to cut cost using variety tactics. I would think carefully and think twice before joining HPSP.
There is no free lunch.
 
Agreed. There are increasing number of reasons not to join military. Medical students don't look at low ISP rates of sub specialist, decreasing promotional potential etc before signing for HPSP.
.
I disagree. I think there are an increasing number of reasons not to stay in the military after an initial HPSP commitment, or to commit for more than 4 years though USUHS/ROTC, but that doesn't have anything to do with taking the HPSP scholarship. The promotion rate to O-4 is still 100%. The slight decrease in the real value of physician pay is dwarfed by the dramatic increase in the value of the HPSP scholarship itself. The ever increasing emphasis on physicians filling administrative jobs in their mid and late careers doesn't matter if you don't stay long enough to qualify for any of those positions.

I think this is a big shift in the last 20 years: it used to be that the military was a terrible place to begin a career, but was arguably a good place to stay for 20 years. Now the military might be a good way to start a medical career, but you'd have to be insane to stay for more than a 4 year commitment.
 
I dont understand what makes the military to be a good way to start a medical career now? Presence of signing bonus? Rising cost of medical school? You and I both know that joining HPSP for monetary reason is never good reason and certainly does not make militay a good place to start a medical career. Furthermore quality of residency training remained stagnant like our military bonus pays.

The fact is that we are seeing decreasing percentage of Army doctors promoting to O-5 as result of military's increased emphasis on leadership and military education just like non-MC promotion. About 6 years ago I saw Army anesthesiologist (O-6) who was an excellent physician but he never did CCC. Lack of military education did not prevent his promotion. Current system rewards doctors who have shorter residency (primary care) and spent a lot of time in operational environment. Promotional rates of family medicine doctors are 83% whereas general surgeons are 66%. O-4 who did ILE got promoted 100%. Now If you are doing fellowship after residency there have been increased emphasis on post residency utilization tours (BDE surgeon) adding years in the military. It is not just 4 years commitment. After utilization tours you may find youself doing fellowship and not getting picked up O-5 given lack of leadership under current environment.

I don't know if military was ever a good place to start medical career or stay for 20 years but military is changing for worst for Army doctors esp specialists.
 
I dont understand what makes the military to be a good way to start a medical career now? Presence of signing bonus? Rising cost of medical school? You and I both know that joining HPSP for monetary reason is never good reason and certainly does not make militay a good place to start a medical career. Furthermore quality of residency training remained stagnant like our military bonus pays.

The fact is that we are seeing decreasing percentage of Army doctors promoting to O-5 as result of military's increased emphasis on leadership and military education just like non-MC promotion. About 6 years ago I saw Army anesthesiologist (O-6) who was an excellent physician but he never did CCC. Lack of military education did not prevent his promotion. Current system rewards doctors who have shorter residency (primary care) and spent a lot of time in operational environment. Promotional rates of family medicine doctors are 83% whereas general surgeons are 66%. O-4 who did ILE got promoted 100%. Now If you are doing fellowship after residency there have been increased emphasis on post residency utilization tours (BDE surgeon) adding years in the military. It is not just 4 years commitment. After utilization tours you may find youself doing fellowship and not getting picked up O-5 given lack of leadership under current environment.

I don't know if military was ever a good place to start medical career or stay for 20 years but military is changing for worst for Army doctors esp specialists.

Couldn't one argue that those with shorter residencies (usually primary care) have thus had more opportunity to do things outside of training, and thus the higher promotion rate? Not sure I would have expected anything differently. At the same time, ENT/Ortho appear to have promoted closer to the rates of primary care, so maybe it's just general surgery that's an anomaly this year?
 
Couldn't one argue that those with shorter residencies (usually primary care) have thus had more opportunity to do things outside of training, and thus the higher promotion rate? Not sure I would have expected anything differently. At the same time, ENT/Ortho appear to have promoted closer to the rates of primary care, so maybe it's just general surgery that's an anomaly this year?

Although I guess I wouldn't expect that to have such an impact on the O5 board. But again, with ENT/Ortho having similar rates maybe it's just an anomaly with gen surg.
 
About 6 years ago I saw Army anesthesiologist (O-6) who was an excellent physician but he never did CCC. Lack of military education did not prevent his promotion. Current system rewards doctors who have shorter residency (primary care) and spent a lot of time in operational environment. Promotional rates of family medicine doctors are 83% whereas general surgeons are 66%. O-4 who did ILE got promoted 100%.

the old guard O6's who are in charge have largely reaped the benefits with little of the work they now expect of those junior to them. There was a time when people were given constructive credit for CCC for deployments and BDE surgeon rotations. split deployments were common. above center of mass OERs were good, but not required. O6 was nearly universal, and the "broadening" experiences were not a prerequisite for promotion. Now you have to have a 60A job, a deployment, ILE, and maybe operational time to maximize your chances. You need 1, more likely 2, above center of mass OERs. the bar has been raised and the goalpost moved for reasons I can't figure out. Unless they're trying to impress the line with their lower PZ rates (see! we are hard core too!) or squeeze an extra year of work or a few early retirements I don't know. at my hospital in my department alone there are a total of five people in the senior O-4 to junior O-5 group separating this year and next. I can't imagine it's that much different army wide

Now If you are doing fellowship after residency there have been increased emphasis on post residency utilization tours (BDE surgeon) adding years in the military. It is not just 4 years commitment. After utilization tours you may find youself doing fellowship and not getting picked up O-5 given lack of leadership under current environment. .

BDE surgeon tours don't add to your ADSO. a little confused over what you meant. they would delay you from being able to start if that's what you meant.

I don't know if military was ever a good place to start medical career or stay for 20 years but military is changing for worst for Army doctors esp specialists.

specialists aren't viewed as such by the army. split deployments are now almost impossible and the wage gap isn't getting any better. plus the resources someone needs as a subspecialist they are hesitant or unwilling to provide. for primary care, specialties like ID, or people who don't really want to see patients and like admin or operational stuff, it's not such a bad deal. but if you have any aspirations to O6 you have to be willing to jump through a lot of hoops-- and your family will be jumping through them with you.


Couldn't one argue that those with shorter residencies (usually primary care) have thus had more opportunity to do things outside of training, and thus the higher promotion rate? Not sure I would have expected anything differently. At the same time, ENT/Ortho appear to have promoted closer to the rates of primary care, so maybe it's just general surgery that's an anomaly this year?

yes. which is why people are unfairly "punished" for doing residency, then maybe a year or two utilization (or straight to fellowship), then staff. this is usually a 6+ year thing, and if their first position after fellowship is "staff" the board sees no deployments, no operational time, and no leadership positions. even those people with 1-2 years of utilization tour won't have OIC time.

although someone who has taken this path has made a significant increase in skills, responsibilities, and capabilities, on paper it just looks like someone completed some schooling, was a minion, did more training (fellowship) and was a minion again. it doesn't hold the weight that it should. people in longer residencies start out behind just by the nature of what the board looks at.

personally unless I find some a compelling reason I'm finished with the hoops. I don't even know what the national guard/reserve promotion rates are but frankly to me it's irrelevant when it comes time to figure out what to do if/when I REFRAD.

--your friendly neighborhood resume buffing by seeing sick call in Kuwait caveman
 
Have the discrimators come out yet?

What's life like after making O5? Can I stop going to bs EO, sharp, other random training? Can I just blow off everything except good patient care? Is it true they can't get rid of me? Maybe they can deploy me if they really hate me...
 
Have the discrimators come out yet?

What's life like after making O5? Can I stop going to bs EO, sharp, other random training? Can I just blow off everything except good patient care? Is it true they can't get rid of me? Maybe they can deploy me if they really hate me...

You can do this at O4 if you're ok with making people mad.


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You can do this at O4 if you're ok with making people mad.

I haven't been able to do it yet in the hospital situation. I want to speak to a real deal, lazy, training dodging light colonel now please.
 
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