Lying

[Got Milk]

So while at my Miss St interview that was open file it dawned on me and made me wonder just how many and to what extent people lie on their applications. In all honesty I made every attempt at being truthful about experiences and hours etc, obviously some mistakes because I wasn't 100% sure about somethings but I tried my best to be honest.
But for all the other places that have closed file interviews there is nothing in place to prevent outright lying on the applications. Fake jobs or experiences exaggerated hours, etc. Other than LOR from vets or people involved with experiences there is nothing to really confirm the validity of these things, as I don't think they actually check up on these things. So my question to you is, do you know of anyone who outright lied, if so how pissed would you be if you were rejected and they were accepted? It doesn't sit well with me thinking people would get into vet school not being completely honest and I have a feeling it happens.

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[rayray13]

Personally, I would be furious if I found out someone else lied about their hours and got in while I was sitting on a wait list or outright rejected. It could happen though...I had four intreviews (Purdue, Kansas, Mississippi, and Minnesota) and at no point during any of those interviews did they ask me any in depth questions about something I saw during my vet experience. The closest they got was asking what the most interesting thing I saw during my experience was. And when I told them they didn't ask any follow up questions...

They did say to us at Mississippi, though, that if you have an outrageously large number of hours on your application, be prepared to answer some in depth questions about it. But I'm sure people could get away with "supplementing" their hours with an extra 50-100 here or there...which, like I said before, would be infuriating and very unfair to those of us that sold our souls D) to a vet during the summers and actually put in the hours.

 

[goldielocks137]

I'm confused on you think a closed interview doesn't "prevent outright lying on applications"? Even with a closed interview they review your application in combination with your interview review in determining admission. So I'm not sure why there would be a difference in this between open and closed interviews.

Truthfully, I do not believe that the adcoms call every experience contact listed by every applicant to verify the application information. However, I do believe that they can get a feel for if you are being honest with the hours/locations by reading the description of duties listed. The longer you've spent at a certain clinic/job, the more responsibilities you will be given. And I'm sure if anything seems too unbelievable they would check up on it. Also, if you have a lot of experience at one place that place is likely to show up in your personal statement. And an anecdote in a personal statement is much harder to fake than exaggerating hours

 

[Got Milk]

in a closed interview they aren't going to talk about actual experiences listed so the ability to exaggerate and add experiences would seem to be possible. I know they could check up on things if you put absurd experiences and extremely long hours but what would stop someone who is low on experience from exaggerating and/or adding experiences in fields where they don't have much experience that would be secondary to their primary experiences and not important enough to include a person for a LOR. I expect people do this especially if you don't apply to schools who have open file interviews. Maybe I'm thinking the worst of people but for some reason I feel like people do this.

 

[EllieGirl89]

I guess it would be kind of easy to lie, but they DO have their ways of "checking in." During my interview at OSU, one of my interviewers said that she read either in my application or in one of my eLORS that I had learned how to intubate during one of my experiences. She said that since she might have read it in a LOR, if I said I didn't do it she "wouldn't hold it against me." I panicked for a minute, because I didn't put that in my application, and I was afraid that one of my LOR writers might have exaggerated my abilities. Then I remembered that I HAD helped to intubate a dog one time, and that maybe he had put that in there, so I told her that yes, I had intubated a dog once. She then asked me to explain exactly how that is done, so I told her, and she said okay and moved along.

It didn't occur to me until after the interview that perhaps she DIDN'T read it anywhere and was just saying she did to see if I would lie in my interview. As in, maybe she just said that (and added the stipulation that it would be fine to say I hadn't) to see if I would say yes and then not have a clue what she was talking about. Kind of like...can I keep my integrity under pressure.

So the moral of that story is that I think even without having read your application, interviewers can find out about your integrity and honesty through the questions they ask, and I think they can do it skillfully enough that you don't even know it's happening.

 

[twelvetigers]

I won't reveal how long it took me to find this thread... haha. Whatever, it was well-disguised. Point is, it's come up here before, though I don't think we reached a 'conclusion' or anything.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=719095

 

[kaydubs]

Wow, nice job, EG!! Agreed - don't go overboard with the numbers game, no matter how tempting it might be.

So the moral of that story is that I think even without having read your application, interviewers can find out about your integrity and honesty through the questions they ask, and I think they can do it skillfully enough that you don't even know it's happening.

TT, where would we be without you seeking out these links? How do you do it? (Seriously, I can barely find threads that are recent, let alone stuff that's archived....)

I won't reveal how long it took me to find this thread... haha. Whatever, it was well-disguised. Point is, it's come up here before, though I don't think we reached a 'conclusion' or anything.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=719095

 

[No Imagination]

On my application I wrote down that I spoke conversational Russian, and had spent 2 weeks in Costa Rica and ~2 months in Ecuador doing research. Well, one of the first things one of the AdComms did was start speaking Spanish to me! I was like, WTF? He pulled out my app and said "it says right here, you speak... oh, nevermind".

Then he started asking me detailed questions about Costa Rica, where I had been, what I did; he completely confused CR with Ecuador (I reiterated my experiences in each country, and apologized (wasn't my fault he lacked reading comprehension) for the confusion.

Still not sure if it was all a charade to see if I was legit or not, but I got in.

Point is, never underestimate their ability to dig into what you say.

 

[Chinola]

I was so convinced that someone was going to start speaking Spanish to me or ask me to dance Salsa. I had included in some of my supplementals that I was trying to learn how to do both. I also have spent a lot of time in Latin countries doing various volunteer work so I figured they'd expect me to speak Spanish. But in 4 interviews it never came up.

I was actually kind of hoping that I'd get to show off my newly learned Salsa skills

 

[LetItSnow]

But for all the other places that have closed file interviews there is nothing in place to prevent outright lying on the applications. Fake jobs or experiences exaggerated hours, etc. Other than LOR from vets or people involved with experiences there is nothing to really confirm the validity of these things, as I don't think they actually check up on these things. So my question to you is, do you know of anyone who outright lied, if so how pissed would you be if you were rejected and they were accepted? It doesn't sit well with me thinking people would get into vet school not being completely honest and I have a feeling it happens.

Eh. Don't worry about what other people do, just think about yourself: Do you *really* want to send in an application for what could be one of the most major accomplishments in your life and then sit there and stew over whether or not they happen to check on that one thing you lied about? I'd be miserable.

Also, I think you might be underestimating the intelligence of the interviewing teams. I've done plenty of interviewing in my job, and it becomes really clear quickly when someone is exaggerating their experience or making things up.

In the end, you can't control other people cheating/lying/whatever, so just keep your own nose clean and know that anything you got you EARNED.

 

[bonaparte]

Eh. Don't worry about what other people do, just think about yourself: Do you *really* want to send in an application for what could be one of the most major accomplishments in your life and then sit there and stew over whether or not they happen to check on that one thing you lied about? I'd be miserable.

Also, I think you might be underestimating the intelligence of the interviewing teams. I've done plenty of interviewing in my job, and it becomes really clear quickly when someone is exaggerating their experience or making things up.

In the end, you can't control other people cheating/lying/whatever, so just keep your own nose clean and know that anything you got you EARNED.

I agree. Additionally, there is, in fact, a reason why vet experience hours are required! If you didn't do the work that it really takes to get into vet school, I think you'd be doing yourself a huge disfavor.

 

[Vet Med]

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[deleted266066]

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[deleted266066]

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[l2vet]

If it were me I would count them ALL as vet hours - I have been told basically that so long as your boss is a vet, count it as vet experience. So you wouldn't be lying at all in this situation

It actually depends on what kind of work you do in the kennel.

Work at a kennel at say a boarding facility, even if it's part of a veterinary facility where veterinarians are your ultimate supervisors is not really veterinary experience.

Work at a a kennel within an animal hospital where your duties can often include medically relevant work like bandaging, management of equipment, specialty/hand feeding, and more direct interaction with actual medical cases, is most DEFINITELY veterinary experience.

I work at an animal hospital (second description) and we have a sister clinic across town that does more our routine care, grooming, and boarding. Working were I do in the kennel is vet experience; working across town in the kennel is not.

 

[Vet Med]

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[EllieGirl89]

It actually depends on what kind of work you do in the kennel.

Work at a kennel at say a boarding facility, even if it's part of a veterinary facility where veterinarians are your ultimate supervisors is not really veterinary experience.

Work at a a kennel within an animal hospital where your duties can often include medically relevant work like bandaging, management of equipment, specialty/hand feeding, and more direct interaction with actual medical cases, is most DEFINITELY veterinary experience.

I work at an animal hospital (second description) and we have a sister clinic across town that does more our routine care, grooming, and boarding. Working were I do in the kennel is vet experience; working across town in the kennel is not.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, although kennel work really is pretty tough to categorize.

I worked at a dog and cat boarding facility for about six months. The boarding facility was part of the same business as the vet clinic and owned by the vet himself (the entire business was called So and So Pet Care Center and Animal Hospital), but my immediate supervisors and the manager of the Pet Care Center (kennel) were not vets. A lot of the boarded animals, however, required a lot of vet related care, such as meds, special diets, etc. In addition, I DID work with the vet each day-we had an exam room in the pet care center and the vet came back every day to do any schedules vaccs/exams on the boarded dogs.

I ended up counting my direct contact time with the vet during exams (~90 hours) as vet experience, and my time just working in the kennel (even medicating animals, about ~600 hours) as animal experience. Whether or not the admissions committee looked at that and ended up counting it as vet experience, I don't know, but that's how I put it on the VMCAS just to be safe. I did get to talk about how my experiences in the kennel would help with vet med though, because we were required to be meticulous and detailed with our charting (when dogs went potty, ate, had their game times, etc.) and we were also thoroughly trained in animal behavior and body language for running daycare groups and such. All that besides the practical knowledge of how best to administer oral, aural, and subcutaneous medications and how to know if an animal is feeling under the weather. OH, and dealing with the owners

 

[deleted266066]

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[AngSchmange]

I think working in a Kennel will make everyone who's done it (myself included!) more able to relate to other employees once you get a job in a clinic. Think about it, if you were at the bottom of the totem pole, once you're at the top, you'll work much better with those below you because you were there once. I had a job with a not so nice vet and I can only imagine she had never worked as a kennel assistant before. Just an assumption though, but I really think that everyone who's been at the bottom of the totem pole will appreciate being at the top more and will respect those who are below. Right? Haha. I think Vet schools recognize this also and would definitely like an applicant with Kennel experience for this reason in addition to the obvious ones

 

[l2vet]

My jobs are pretty diverse. I do ALOT of cleaning. Laundry, dishes, cleaning cages and runs, cleaning floors, cleaning up pretty much any animal messes that are made. Some days all I do is clean (especially when i get into the cleaning mode). But an average day I am wrapping packs (which takes forever because I am super picky) helping in surgery, taking care of the boarders, taking care of the hospital cases, taking care of the animals straight out of surgery. When I am not busy I go up front and help the vets with appointments, running tests, blood work, nail trims, answering phones.

But like I said I clean A LOT. So I just don't know.

I felt the same way about my job. I do a lot of cleaning, but I also do a lot of medically-relevant work (not that cleaning cages isn't medically relevant! but laundry and taking out the trash, perhaps not so much, lol). What I did was figure out my hours based on my W2, based on my current wage (I've worked there 3 years and have had a few small raises). Then I figured roughly the number of shifts I worked (they're about 5 hours long) and subtracted that number of hours (working 100 shifts = subtract 100 hours). I figured that combined with figuring the hours based on a higher salary than I started with (decreases a bit from actual number worked) plus the subtraction that I got it about right.

I think the important thing there is to remember that for vet schools, the importance is not the difference between 1600 and 1700 hours. An important difference for them would be say, 100 hours versus 1000. That extra zero can't just "slip" in there...

I worked at a dog and cat boarding facility for about six months. The boarding facility was part of the same business as the vet clinic and owned by the vet himself (the entire business was called So and So Pet Care Center and Animal Hospital), but my immediate supervisors and the manager of the Pet Care Center (kennel) were not vets. A lot of the boarded animals, however, required a lot of vet related care, such as meds, special diets, etc. In addition, I DID work with the vet each day-we had an exam room in the pet care center and the vet came back every day to do any schedules vaccs/exams on the boarded dogs.

I ended up counting my direct contact time with the vet during exams (~90 hours) as vet experience, and my time just working in the kennel (even medicating animals, about ~600 hours) as animal experience. Whether or not the admissions committee looked at that and ended up counting it as vet experience, I don't know, but that's how I put it on the VMCAS just to be safe. I did get to talk about how my experiences in the kennel would help with vet med though, because we were required to be meticulous and detailed with our charting (when dogs went potty, ate, had their game times, etc.) and we were also thoroughly trained in animal behavior and body language for running daycare groups and such. All that besides the practical knowledge of how best to administer oral, aural, and subcutaneous medications and how to know if an animal is feeling under the weather. OH, and dealing with the owners

You can still chart some hours as vet experience in a "regular" boarding kennel, and that's exactly the way to do it! I'm not sure of the line between vet-supervised and vet-prescribed and what counts as vet versus animal in medication administration alone though--I've been told by some ad comms that having a diabetic cat and administering its insulin can be considered vet experience, and by others that it must be under direct supervision of practicing vets only, so I'm not sure what to tell you as far as that. But DEFINITELY if the boarding kennel employs vets, and you're administering medication, that for sure counts.

Hmm woops, good point! I guess I just kind of assumed it was the latter. I've only ever worked at/shadowed clinics with the second description.

Haha, no problem. I just mentioned that because in the program I'm in, that's one of the biggest questions. My school is in a pretty rural area (county seat is about 60k people) so it's quite hard to find vet-related work, and a lot of the students want to know if this or that kennel work applies. What I said is what the program head tells us, as a way to differentiate.

I think working in a Kennel will make everyone who's done it (myself included!) more able to relate to other employees once you get a job in a clinic. Think about it, if you were at the bottom of the totem pole, once you're at the top, you'll work much better with those below you because you were there once. I had a job with a not so nice vet and I can only imagine she had never worked as a kennel assistant before. Just an assumption though, but I really think that everyone who's been at the bottom of the totem pole will appreciate being at the top more and will respect those who are below. Right? Haha. I think Vet schools recognize this also and would definitely like an applicant with Kennel experience for this reason in addition to the obvious ones

This, this, this. I know that as a vet I'm going to have such an appreciation for kennel workers. There are 4 vets at my hospital--two were kennel workers and I'm fairly certain two weren't. You can tell such a difference. It's not that the two who weren't are rude or nasty, but the two who were kennel workers just understand.

 

[Vet Med]

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[twelvetigers]

I worked at a clinic where I was the only tech, so I cleaned a lot too... but I did everything else as well. I counted all the hours. Yeah, I had to walk dogs and clean up post-anesthesia barf, but I think that was just a section of my duties there.

If you listed all of it under vet experience, I don't think it would be a big deal. As long as you did more tech-ish stuff for at least, say, 40-50% of the time or more... the point is, you're there, you see what goes on, you're getting exposure to the field. It's cool to learn how to draw blood or place catheters, but that's not what they're looking for - they just want you to know what it's like, and you can see that pretty well even if you clean most of the time. Right?

 

[AngSchmange]

Yes exactly!! It's so crazy how you can tell isn't it? LOL.

And, I put my kennel experience under both animal AND vet. I just talked about how they were different. Both jobs knew that I was pre-vet, so each would kinda call me over to check out some cool vet stuff. But on the other hand, I got to get a lot of animal husbandry experience and practice with medications. Even when I was cleaning I had to avoid swiping cats! TOTALLY animal experience

 

[Cautionary Tail]

I've been told by some ad comms that having a diabetic cat and administering its insulin can be considered vet experience, and by others that it must be under direct supervision of practicing vets only, so I'm not sure what to tell you as far as that.

Say what?

I wish I'd have known that some adcoms might've given me credit for my 6 years (and counting) of cat-stabbing, haha. Admittedly, probably a good fifth of my PS revolved around his issues and how managing them was basically the final straw in convincing me that this was something I had to do, but still... I was unaware of this. I thought anything non-commercial related to pet ownership was off-limits hours wise.

 

[Cautionary Tail]

This, this, this. I know that as a vet I'm going to have such an appreciation for kennel workers. There are 4 vets at my hospital--two were kennel workers and I'm fairly certain two weren't. You can tell such a difference. It's not that the two who weren't are rude or nasty, but the two who were kennel workers just understand.

YES.

This has been apparent everywhere I've worked as well. When it comes to future management and staff relations, there's definitely something to be said for working one's way up from the bottom, IMO.

 

[lareinesoleil]

I did count my kennel hours as veterinary hours, but then where you wrote down your "duties" I was honest about the fact that some of it was kennel work and cleaning.

I did not, however, count any of my animal ownership as "animal experience", except for the official agility and obedience classes I've taken (ie, I didn't count in hours spent practicing at home, only hours I was actually in the class). And they DID ask me about this, then LOL'ed when I told them I did it with a toy poodle

EDIT: forgot to add that I focused on the fact that behavior is a big interest of mine, so it was very relevant for me personally that I've had experience in the training world. Talking a lot about behavior in my PS then not listing any of my experiences would have looked weird. So that's another reason I listed all that.

 

[No Imagination]

Kennel vs. Vet (animal vs. vet experience)

I asked my boss (the vet) and I called VCAMSA (Whatever the people who do the apps are) - and they all said "If you work under a veterinarian, it can be counted as veterinary experience". It technically does not mater if you are doing traditional veterinary work.

If you work under a vet doing research (even if all you did was run PCR and gels for a year) = Veterinary

If you work under a vet doing slaughter house inspection = Veterinary

If you work under a vet doing public health (paper pushing) = Veterinary

This was 3 years ago, but I had something like 10,000 veterinary hours (Worked full time for many years) so I asked several people... they all said "Veterinary".

Keep in mind, you will have to list a description of work, so if you cannot make it sound 'veterinary' like, you might want to skip it. And I welcome you to call the application people (acronym I can't remember) and double check what I am saying, but they definitely told me that 3 years ago, and it was what I put down on my application.

 

[twelvetigers]

Bahahaha you know your brain is full of veterinary knowledge if you can't even remember what VMCAS is called. Man, I guess you only had to fill it out once, NI? 'Cause I know I'll never forget what it's called after all this... hell, I'll probably still grump about it when I'm 90 and can't even remember my grandkids' names.

 

[rosyreef]

Bahahaha you know your brain is full of veterinary knowledge if you can't even remember what VMCAS is called. Man, I guess you only had to fill it out once, NI? 'Cause I know I'll never forget what it's called after all this... hell, I'll probably still grump about it when I'm 90 and can't even remember my grandkids' names.

Nice avatar change I love it when dogs do that

 

[LetItSnow]

I did count my kennel hours as veterinary hours, but then where you wrote down your "duties" I was honest about the fact that some of it was kennel work and cleaning.

I think this is the best plan. If you can in good conscience put your time down as 'veterinary', then do so.

At worst some admissions person somewhere is going to say "we can't really count all that," but they won't hold it against you if you're clearly being reasonable as opposed to deceptive.

Couple examples from my app. I volunteer in canine rehab at our teaching hospital. The only time I even SEE a vet is when a surgeon comes down to check on a post-op dog, which is pretty rare. I put all of that time down as veterinary, though. Sure, I rinse and dry dogs, but I also delivery underwater treadmill therapy, e-stim, laser, US, etc.

On the other hand, I also volunteer in wildlife rehab. I don't really interact with the vet staff much there, either. But my duties are confined to cage cleaning and feeding. So I put that all in as animal experience.

I did not, however, count any of my animal ownership as "animal experience"

I certainly did. The advice I was given by a former chief of large animal surgery from the school I'll be attending was: "If you've ever touched an animal, put it on the application." As long as you're clear about what it involved, the adcom folks are free to count it or not as they please.

VMCAS has some help built-in to assist you in deciding. In the end, I think if you go with your best judgment, be able to defend it, and BE HONEST, that will win the day.

 

[RatherBEventing]

sooo i am not necessarily proud of this, but I figured Id throw in my personal experience with this. I actually messed up my VMCAS hours horribly, I accidentally multiplied everything by hours per day rather than hours per week...so all of my hours were multiplied by 10

yep...real smart move. moral of the story = ALWAYS always always double check your hours!!! messing up math on a vet application looks SO bad!

Thankfully, Ohio state noticed, commented on it (it was the very first thing that was brought up in my interview...), but then accepted the fact that I was not lying and I made a mistake, and accepted me.

I dont know if Colorado even noticed...I got no questions and got accepted.

I ended up sending Wisconsin and Upenn emails stating that I was aware of my mistake and apologized for my errors and lack of attention to detail...I got waitlisted for Wisconsin and havent heard from UPenn yet.
So i guess some schools must notice and some must not or dont care?

 

[lareinesoleil]

VMCAS has some help built-in to assist you in deciding. In the end, I think if you go with your best judgment, be able to defend it, and BE HONEST, that will win the day.

yep...real smart move. moral of the story = ALWAYS always always double check your hours!!! messing up math on a vet application looks SO bad!

Yeeeeeeep. I messed up my hours too, except NOT in my favor. I was typing too fast (or something, I have no idea what kind of brain fart happened) and put 300 hours instead of 3000 for one of my clinics

It ended up OK for me, because when I tried to bring it up during my interview the interviewers laughed and said "oh, we could tell by other parts of your application that you had plenty of experience" and I got in...but I was lucky. Double and triple check!

 

[Robdude]

I think this is a large part of why most schools tend to put an emphasis on GPA/GRE (objective, verifiable) vs. interview/experience (subjective, difficult to verify).

The vast, vast, vast majority of jobs are very repetitive. Sure, initially, you might learn a lot; but after that, you are just repeating what you've already done. I think there is very little practical difference between working full-time for one year at a particular position and working for three.

If I worked full-time for one year (2,000) hours and said I'd worked (6,000) hours, over three years, I don't think any interview questions could expose this.

There are SO many applicants, there is no way the vet schools can afford to verify this information. Beyond that, at least in some states, your employer is very limited in what information they can provide someone without risking a lawsuit. "Yes, RobDude worked here from X to Y" is about all they'll say in CO.

That doesn't include a count of the hours. And, if you are claiming volunteer work, I don't think there is any record of that at all.

Even the LOR system seems completely gameable. I have co-workers who are adjunct professors at CSU and they'll basically write a LOR for anyone who isn't failing. As a Non-trad, I had to ask for an LOR from a professor, but I haven't been in class for six years. I'm 99% sure he had no idea who I was, but still wrote me an LOR. I'm convinced I could e-mail 50 professors across the nation and get, at least, five great LORs.

On top of that, I'm not at all sure vet schools do anything to confirm that the LOR was written by whomever it says. I'm not sure if there is anything that stops me from looking up the name of a local vet, creating a bogus e-mail and fax number with their name on it, then writing an LOR myself, as them.

 

[Lab Rat83]

My brother-in-law (during his interview) was asked to share with them something that he has taught himself. During the previous winter he taught himself to play guitar and that's what he talked about. They then asked him questions about different chords he learned and stuff. He says he's glad he didn't lie about it.

 

[nyanko]

Even the LOR system seems completely gameable. I have co-workers who are adjunct professors at CSU and they'll basically write a LOR for anyone who isn't failing. As a Non-trad, I had to ask for an LOR from a professor, but I haven't been in class for six years. I'm 99% sure he had no idea who I was, but still wrote me an LOR. I'm convinced I could e-mail 50 professors across the nation and get, at least, five great LORs.

In your scenario, the LORs aren't going to be "great" LORs. If you think a professor who barely knows you is going to bother to take the time to write much more than some variation of "This person did well in my class and I don't remember any problems with them." then I don't know what to tell you. A rec letter from a person who knows you well and really wants to see you succeed is totally invaluable. They'll include examples that speak to your aptitude, character, work ethic, strengths and accomplishments and complement the rest of your application.

Not necessarily every letter has to be like this, and for most applicants they will have at least one "did well in class" sort of letter, but if one is hinging his/her application on such a letter I think there might be some disappointment at the end of that tunnel.

On top of that, I'm not at all sure vet schools do anything to confirm that the LOR was written by whomever it says. I'm not sure if there is anything that stops me from looking up the name of a local vet, creating a bogus e-mail and fax number with their name on it, then writing an LOR myself, as them.

Even ignoring the potential application/veterinary school consequences to doing something like this (it would get you thrown out, no questions asked), I'm pretty sure this would have legal implications as some sort of identity theft/fraud/misrepresentation as well. If you're going to go down this road, you might as well talk about doctoring transcripts or hacking into school computer systems to change grades or assuming another person's identity entirely - because that's about what it's akin to on the scale of "gaming the system."

 

[that redhead]

Not going to lie (ha!), I sometimes feel uncomfortable with the numbers of hours I have and listed on my application because I have a lot. I guess the thing to remember for me is that instead of dedicating the time to make amazing grades, all of those hours most people spend studying I spent working! I'm afraid they'll ask me something (can they in a behavioral interview? I have no idea) about an experience I claimed and that I won't be able to remember some minute detail and they'll think its all a scam. Which it isn't, but still

 

[Robdude]

In your scenario, the LORs aren't going to be "great" LORs. If you think a professor who barely knows you is going to bother to take the time to write much more than some variation of "This person did well in my class and I don't remember any problems with them." then I don't know what to tell you. A rec letter from a person who knows you well and really wants to see you succeed is totally invaluable. They'll include examples that speak to your aptitude, character, work ethic, strengths and accomplishments and complement the rest of your application.

Not necessarily every letter has to be like this, and for most applicants they will have at least one "did well in class" sort of letter, but if one is hinging his/her application on such a letter I think there might be some disappointment at the end of that tunnel.



Even ignoring the potential application/veterinary school consequences to doing something like this (it would get you thrown out, no questions asked), I'm pretty sure this would have legal implications as some sort of identity theft/fraud/misrepresentation as well. If you're going to go down this road, you might as well talk about doctoring transcripts or hacking into school computer systems to change grades or assuming another person's identity entirely - because that's about what it's akin to on the scale of "gaming the system."

I think the difference is in the difficulty. It would be very hard for a student to send in fake transcripts. Official transcripts have all sorts of security on them, and they are sealed/mailed from one university to another. Likewise, hacking into a computer system is not a trivial task someone can just do. Yes, it happens; but it is very rare and usually involves special access or knowledge most people don't have. And, even if you could pull it off, the odds of doing so undetected are very low.

Exaggerating about hours is really easy and really, really hard to detect.

Faking LORs seems pretty easy too. But, being perfectly honest, I don't even see the point; everyone hands them out like candy. Still, it would be awfully hard, particularly when you are applying to OOS or international schools, to get caught. Theoretically, it might be criminal. In practice, I can't imagine anyone prosecuting you. I tried to file a police report when some unknown person fraudulently used my credit card....and trust me, nobody cared. I can't imagine them getting up in arms over a fictional LOR.

I'm not saying it's okay to cheat or lie. I'm just saying that I think it would be easy. I'm confident I could do it. I'm also sure people have done it in the past. I also think the admission's folk know this and that is why they tend to put more value in GPA/GRE. It's much harder to fake that.

 

[LetItSnow]

I'm afraid they'll ask me something (can they in a behavioral interview? I have no idea) about an experience I claimed and that I won't be able to remember some minute detail and they'll think its all a scam. Which it isn't, but still

Within the boundaries of what is legal, they can ask you anything they want in an interview, regardless of how they 'advertise' it.

UMN makes a lot of noise about doing behavioral interviews. So when I went in and the very first question was "so.... tell us about yourself" I was a little taken aback. Though they focused quite heavily on behavioral questions, that was by no means the entirety of the interview.

Sometimes ya just gotta be prepared to roll with things.

 

[LetItSnow]

Faking LORs seems pretty easy too. But, being perfectly honest, I don't even see the point; everyone hands them out like candy. [...]

I'm not saying it's okay to cheat or lie. I'm just saying that I think it would be easy. I'm confident I could do it. I'm also sure people have done it in the past. I also think the admission's folk know this and that is why they tend to put more value in GPA/GRE. It's much harder to fake that.

I suspect the ones that are handed out like candy don't really count for much in your evaluation. It's those hard-earned ones by vets that have seen you in their clinic for countless hours that probably weigh heavily.

Also, I'm wondering about your assumption that more value is put on the GPA/GRE? Can you substantiate that? I'm no expert, but at the school I applied to, your GPA/GRE is 33%, your subjective (including LORs) is 33%, and your interview is 33%. That hardly seems like putting more emphasis on academics.

 

[dee vee emm]

So this isn't really lying, but this question kinda popped in my head one day... I was wondering in the history of anyone applying to vet school if anyone had ever sent in a "donation" with their application in hopes of getting accepted?

Not that I think or am asking if anyone here has done it... just wondering what people think if it's been done before?

I dunno if it happens, I could have just totally made that up in my head...lol.

 

[sumstorm]

something to remember is that vet med is an incredibly small field (all vets in the US can fit into some of the larger stadiums) and consequently, one of your ad coms will know your LOR writer, or know someone who knows someone. I know this part from working in the zoo world (about the same total numbers) and being the interviewer for internships. It wasn't like I had to cold call someone....85% of the time I could grab my rolodex and have a LOR"s home phone number, even if they were across the country.

I personally chose not to include any pet ownership becaues VMCAS said not to, but also because it would have made my hours insane. I also didn't include my farm work (2+ hours of actual work, not fun training or showing or grooming or such every day for 50 weeks for 12+ years.)

I also find it is the little inconsistencies that raise folks suspicians. On putting info in the descriptions, I was told I should note quantity as well (routinely performed radiographs, took OSH class in HAZWOPER, monitored anesthesia 1-2x/mo) so that there was a realistic expectation of knowledge base (ie I knew alot about behavior, but not a lot about PT, even though I had some experience in PT.)

 

[Robdude]

I suspect the ones that are handed out like candy don't really count for much in your evaluation. It's those hard-earned ones by vets that have seen you in their clinic for countless hours that probably weigh heavily.

Also, I'm wondering about your assumption that more value is put on the GPA/GRE? Can you substantiate that? I'm no expert, but at the school I applied to, your GPA/GRE is 33%, your subjective (including LORs) is 33%, and your interview is 33%. That hardly seems like putting more emphasis on academics.

I'll admit, I haven't looked at every school and read up on their admission's procedures; but the majority of schools I looked at either didn't publish how they consider students, or showed a preference for GRE/GPA over LOR/Experience in their consideration.

Iowa State
60% Academic / 20% LORs, Experience, Personal statement, diversity, etc...
http://vetmed.iastate.edu/academics/prospective-students/admissions/selection-criteria

UTK
70% Academic / 30% LOR, Experience, Interview, Personal Statement, etc...
http://www.vet.utk.edu/admissions/procedure.php#selection_procedure

Washington
This one is a little less clear; but the tier system for GPA and GRE seems to be more important than the rest.
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/prospectiveStudents/AdmissionProcedure.aspx

Michigan State
"Up to 60% of the class will be selected based on exceptional SIS score and an acceptable committee file review. The remaining 40% of the class will be selected based on a competitive SIS score plus a committee file review and/or an interview"
http://cvm.msu.edu/student-information/dvm-program-admissions/selection-process

UC Davis
1) Academic factors (50-60 percent)
2) Non-academic factors (approximately 25 percent)
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/studentprograms/subpages/faqs.html#q2

CSU
I'll admit that this one is more of a stretch; it's pretty vague but it does say:
1.) Quality of Academic Program
2.) Additional Factors

Generally, when making a list you'd start with the most important. But yeah, I don't know.

http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/ns/students/future_students/dvm_evaluation_process.aspx

Cornell
Academics - 55%
Experience/LORs - 30%

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/admissions/PSAdmissFormula.cfm

Anyway, these are basically the schools I've been looking at; I didn't include Ohio or Auburn because I couldn't find any break-down of how they do things. I do know there are a lot more schools that I haven't looked at, but I've never, personally, found a school that put a greater value on LORs/Experience than GRE/GPA. But I should have been more selective with my words and not included 'all school' in my statement. I don't know which school you are talking about with an even 33% split, but I certainly believe you.

Finally, when I said that they put a higher importance on GPA/GRE that probably wasn't really what I meant to say; even if that might be true for some number of schools. I was really thinking more of the phases of the admissions policy. From what I've seen at schools that explain their policy in detail and the general feeling I've got is that GPA/GRE plays a more significant role in the deciding who gets the interview invite. Then, they take the time to consider candidates other qualities.

So, if you have a 2.8 GPA and a 1000 GRE - you could LIE THROUGH YOUR TEETH about your LORs, charity work, experience, inventing the horse saddle....and they'd never look at it. If your GPA/GRE meets the 'Good enough for consideration' test, then it feels like (again, maybe just to me) these other things come into play.

I might be wrong, but I really that an applicant with a 4.0 GPA who scored in the 99th percentile on the GRE has a much better shot than someone who is in the 99th percentile for hours of experience.

 

[Robdude]

So this isn't really lying, but this question kinda popped in my head one day... I was wondering in the history of anyone applying to vet school if anyone had ever sent in a "donation" with their application in hopes of getting accepted?

Not that I think or am asking if anyone here has done it... just wondering what people think if it's been done before?

I dunno if it happens, I could have just totally made that up in my head...lol.

I've wondered this to

I think it would have to be an awfully big donation before it wouldn't get your application thrown in the trash....but who knows.

 

[sumstorm]

I might be wrong, but I really that an applicant with a 4.0 GPA who scored in the 99th percentile on the GRE has a much better shot than someone who is in the 99th percentile for hours of experience.

hmmm....yes and no. if the 99th percentile for hours of experience (quality, of course) has a 3.8 or even a 3.4, and the 4.0 GPA with a 1600GRE has a bad LOR...its a toss up.

also, GPA's certainly aren't comparable across schools; the valedictorian GPA at my UG was a 3.6, while at NCSU UG several of the vet students admitted had 4.0's. my 3.4 looks not so great compared to a 4.0 unless you realize that 4.0's didn't exist in the UG I attended.

At the same time, GRE's don't really address science ability at all.

It takes a solid combo of everything or the majority of things.

 

[libster06]

Finally, when I said that they put a higher importance on GPA/GRE that probably wasn't really what I meant to say; even if that might be true for some number of schools. I was really thinking more of the phases of the admissions policy. From what I've seen at schools that explain their policy in detail and the general feeling I've got is that GPA/GRE plays a more significant role in the deciding who gets the interview invite. Then, they take the time to consider candidates other qualities.

So, if you have a 2.8 GPA and a 1000 GRE - you could LIE THROUGH YOUR TEETH about your LORs, charity work, experience, inventing the horse saddle....and they'd never look at it. If your GPA/GRE meets the 'Good enough for consideration' test, then it feels like (again, maybe just to me) these other things come into play.

I might be wrong, but I really that an applicant with a 4.0 GPA who scored in the 99th percentile on the GRE has a much better shot than someone who is in the 99th percentile for hours of experience.

GPA/GRE get your foot in the door. That is the whole point of a GPA requirement (which tends to be around a 3.0). If everyone got in making C grades, it wouldn't be competitive. If there are a whole bunch of applicants with 3.6-3.8 GPAs and a handful of 3.0s, the threes might not be considered. HOWEVER: if all those 3.6-3.8s are just a bunch of bookworms with an otherwise unremarkable application (mediocre LOR, average hours, etc.), and the 3.0s are more well rounded (tons of service hours, great LORs) they will probably be considered over the higher GPA applicants. Smarts don't mean a damn thing if you don't have well-roundedness.

So, I'm certain that ALL the applications are considered. Grades are just given importance because that IS the distinguishing factor... while I gave that example above, it's highly unlikely that you're going to get a bunch of very high GPA applicants with otherwise crappy apps... much to the chagrin of those with lower GPAs. It also depends on the applicant pool.... every cycle is different.



Also: to put this whole thread to rest- people know when you are faking it. These interviewers have been here before. They know a quality, genuine LOR when they see one and they can tell by talking to someone about their accomplishments and past service what's real and what's not (if there is anything to distinguish). It's not hard to tell when someone has over inflated their accomplishments... versus just forgetting you did something. You respond differently when you're trying to make up for b.s.

 

[LetItSnow]

something to remember is that vet med is an incredibly small field (all vets in the US can fit into some of the larger stadiums) and consequently, one of your ad coms will know your LOR writer, or know someone who knows someone

Indeed. During my interview, I got the "tell us about a time you had to work with someone difficult" behavioral question. I launched into a story about someone in the vet field and within a few sentences one of my interviewers looked up and said: "Oh. I know her."

My heart stopped. I raced back in my head to see if I had said anything truly damning or had simply outlined the conflict in a non-judgmental way. As I was doing that, the interviewer laughed and said "Yeah. She can be quite difficult to work with."

Phew.

I personally chose not to include any pet ownership becaues VMCAS said not to [...]

It did? I must not have noticed that. I included pet ownership, but I calculated out a reasonable amount of time actually spent providing care.

 

[LetItSnow]

I don't know which school you are talking about with an even 33% split, but I certainly believe you.

UMN, and I'm confident in the 33/33/33 for them. You certainly substantiated your claim, though!

It's not something I know a lot about: my family situation more or less limited me to MN, so I didn't even bother investigating other schools' application processes.

From what I've seen at schools that explain their policy in detail and the general feeling I've got is that GPA/GRE plays a more significant role in the deciding who gets the interview invite.

That's exactly how UMN used to do it (up until this last cycle). Academics were used as a 'cut off'. However, the level they set wasn't particularly high.

 

[lareinesoleil]

Not going to lie (ha!), I sometimes feel uncomfortable with the numbers of hours I have and listed on my application because I have a lot. I guess the thing to remember for me is that instead of dedicating the time to make amazing grades, all of those hours most people spend studying I spent working! I'm afraid they'll ask me something (can they in a behavioral interview? I have no idea) about an experience I claimed and that I won't be able to remember some minute detail and they'll think its all a scam. Which it isn't, but still

For me at least, my interviewers didn't ask minute details as much as questions about my opinions and experiences that I think would have been pretty difficult to answer well if my experience had been a lie (I'm a horrible liar). IMO, they assume that you are being honest, unless your application has some really glaring inconsistencies.

And they could always call the clinics you worked at and ask, then they'd see that you really did work there. But I think that plenty of people have a lot of hours - since Vet Med seems to be a field that people get passionate about pretty early on, and for many of us animals are also our hobby (showing, training, etc) - so hours tend to rack up pretty quick. Not for everyone, but even if you have several thousand hours I don't think it's THAT unusual that it would raise a red flag.

 

[Robdude]

GPA/GRE get your foot in the door. That is the whole point of a GPA requirement (which tends to be around a 3.0). If everyone got in making C grades, it wouldn't be competitive. If there are a whole bunch of applicants with 3.6-3.8 GPAs and a handful of 3.0s, the threes might not be considered. HOWEVER: if all those 3.6-3.8s are just a bunch of bookworms with an otherwise unremarkable application (mediocre LOR, average hours, etc.), and the 3.0s are more well rounded (tons of service hours, great LORs) they will probably be considered over the higher GPA applicants. Smarts don't mean a damn thing if you don't have well-roundedness.

So, I'm certain that ALL the applications are considered. Grades are just given importance because that IS the distinguishing factor... while I gave that example above, it's highly unlikely that you're going to get a bunch of very high GPA applicants with otherwise crappy apps... much to the chagrin of those with lower GPAs. It also depends on the applicant pool.... every cycle is different.



Also: to put this whole thread to rest- people know when you are faking it. These interviewers have been here before. They know a quality, genuine LOR when they see one and they can tell by talking to someone about their accomplishments and past service what's real and what's not (if there is anything to distinguish). It's not hard to tell when someone has over inflated their accomplishments... versus just forgetting you did something. You respond differently when you're trying to make up for b.s.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with you, but I hope you are right. There have been some high-profile cases of people getting busted for lying many, many years after the fact. I could have sworn I heard about a more recent example, but this was all I could find at 3am

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/city_region/breaking_news/2007/04/mit_dean_of_adm.html

They don't really go into the details, and obviously, it's not a vet. But it is someone who boldly lied to get in the door, advanced in her field. Over a period of 10 years she became the Dean of Admissions and one of the most well known admissions directors in the country.

Granted, she was caught; thanks to an anonymous tip. But it does make me wonder. Not just for vet school admissions, but for future jobs. 10 years ago (well, I guess it's more like 15 since it's old news) some honest person got passed over for a job because this person was able to lie successfully. Who knows how that person's life might have been different had this other person not lied....

Maybe, just for fun (I have a messed up definition of fun) I should actually send out e-mails to professors I've never met, asking for LORs. If I get one, I could post it against a legit one and see what SDN thinks. On the other hand, I'd feel guilty wasting someone's time It'd be interesting though.

 

[Robdude]

UMN, and I'm confident in the 33/33/33 for them. You certainly substantiated your claim, though!

It's not something I know a lot about: my family situation more or less limited me to MN, so I didn't even bother investigating other schools' application processes.



That's exactly how UMN used to do it (up until this last cycle). Academics were used as a 'cut off'. However, the level they set wasn't particularly high.

I honestly like the sound of the 33/33/33 split. I can't for the life of me remember why I didn't look at UMN (I probably didn't meet all of the pre-reqs).

My GRE score wasn't very great, so maybe I'm just jaded....but it always felt a little wrong that (at least at some schools) four+ years of countless hours, countless homework assignments, countless tests, countless projects were given the same weight as a single test.