Life after internship: First job / postdoc questions

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cupoftea2

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Now that I've matched for internship (yay!) I'm starting to think about what comes next. I don't know much about life after internship, so any insights would be much appreciated! I've heard that some folks go the postdoc route, while others get their "first job" - not sure if that's also called a postdoc since you're still not licensed even if it's not a formal postdoc program? What are the pros and cons of these options? From what I'm seeing in the APPIC directory, it doesn't seem like there are nearly as many clinical postdoc opportunities compared to internships, so I'm guessing its more common for people to go the first job route. Is there another place where we should be looking for postdocs to be posted? I'm also wondering about getting enough hours to be licensed - is it difficult to get hired before you're licensed, since you still need supervision? Thanks!

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In my experience applying for postdocs last year, a lot of places didn't even post on APPIC or update their postings until September/October at the earliest. I wouldn't give up hope of applying for a postdoc if that's what you want :)
 
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Now that I've matched for internship (yay!) I'm starting to think about what comes next. I don't know much about life after internship, so any insights would be much appreciated! I've heard that some folks go the postdoc route, while others get their "first job" - not sure if that's also called a postdoc since you're still not licensed even if it's not a formal postdoc program? What are the pros and cons of these options? From what I'm seeing in the APPIC directory, it doesn't seem like there are nearly as many clinical postdoc opportunities compared to internships, so I'm guessing its more common for people to go the first job route. Is there another place where we should be looking for postdocs to be posted? I'm also wondering about getting enough hours to be licensed - is it difficult to get hired before you're licensed, since you still need supervision? Thanks!
I suggest you hold your horses and be happy you matched for internship, and then tackle postdoc as it comes. As the previous poster said, there are many avenues to find them online, and depending on the state you want to be licensed in, it ranges from fairly easy to very difficult to get a 'first job' without a postdoc. I'm hoping your internship will be helpful and supportive when you get to that step. Again, congrats on the match!
 
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I suggest you hold your horses and be happy you matched for internship, and then tackle postdoc as it comes.

I understand where you're coming from, it's just that life after internship is a big question mark, full of uncertainty. I'd like to start thinking about what my options are so that I'll have a better chance of actually getting what I want this time. I matched in Phase II, and I'm a little disappointed with my results. I'm hoping that I can be more prepared to hustle for what I want next time and have a better shot at getting it. I know that the exact positions won't be posted for a while, but I want to know where I should be looking for positions and what I can do to prepare. It would be helpful if others who are further along in their careers might share what the year or two between internship and licensure looked like for them, just to get a sense of the options.
 
I understand where you're coming from, it's just that life after internship is a big question mark, full of uncertainty. I'd like to start thinking about what my options are so that I'll have a better chance of actually getting what I want this time. I matched in Phase II, and I'm a little disappointed with my results. I'm hoping that I can be more prepared to hustle for what I want next time and have a better shot at getting it. I know that the exact positions won't be posted for a while, but I want to know where I should be looking for positions and what I can do to prepare. It would be helpful if others who are further along in their careers might share what the year or two between internship and licensure looked like for them, just to get a sense of the options.

I understand. I am certainly the pot calling the kettle black because I did just as you are now. That's likely why I am telling you to slow down :). I moved far from home (and where I want to be) for internship, so I began looking early for postdocs. I knew I wanted to get licensed in NJ where a formal postdoc is all but required. I also knew I wanted a counseling center, so I checked universitycounselingjobs.com which was incredibly helpful. It might be more helpful for you through this post if you clarify locations you are thinking of for licensure, and what type of setting you would like. As a general rule of thumb, I believe legit searching something like 'counseling center postdoc NJ' was helpful!
 
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It depends on what you want to do. While the APPIC directory is a good place to look, tons of opportunities get emailed out on listservs (e.g., APA division 38 - health psychology continues to have a near constant stream), some professional organizations also have postings. More still get posted on job boards for universities, hospitals, and regular job recruitment websites. Ask around and use your connections.

Now, the bit about where you want to be. Not all states require post-doc supervision hours -- my last count was 12 that did not -- you generally have to have a certain amount of hours and though there are some rules about when/how you accrued them, there is flexibility as to when you accrued them. I suspect that it is easier to get jobs in these states than those that require a post-doc hours for licensure. That said, the VA where I completed internship often hired fresh-out-of-internship grads and provided them with the necessary supervision.

Another not uncommon route is applying for licensure in one of these states and then applying to jobs at VAs (or DoD) nationally as you only need to be licensed in any state. Admittedly, this is tough to do if you do not have connections at the VA at which you want to work -- you'll be competing with those who did complete post-docs.

As for me, I went straight into academia, so my time after is not referred to as post-doc, but different roles in different places probably do depending on the local laws (each state has rules for what you call people and when). As I mentioned, my state doesn't require post-doc supervision, so I studied for the EPPP and was fully licensed within 6 months of graduation. I chose this route over a post-doc because I spent a really long time in grad school (7 years including internship) by the time it was over I could not stomach another year of being a trainee AND I wanted to move on with my life financially. I also chose to forego postdoc because I got a tenure track offer in commutable distance from my home. I didn't want to roll the dice, take a post-doc, and hope I'd be just as lucky the following year. If we ever move to another state and I need post-doc hours, I'll figure it out when I get there. This is the biggest con of foregoing post-doc that I can think of. Anyway, all of this is to say its so dependent upon your personal life circumstances -- where you are, where you want to be, what you want to do, etc. For me, a tenure-track offer in hand, double the salary when accounting for 9 month contract, and state laws that allowed me to get licensed without a post-doc far outweighed the risks of perhaps being less competitive for clinical jobs in the future and reduced portability of my license. For other friends a post-doc was clearly the best (or only acceptable) route for their goals.

Congrats on matching and best of luck.
 
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Like others have said, the post doc search is often less formal than the internship search. For example, several folks I know had great success emailing internship sites they liked but did not match at or other programs in their target area and just asking if they expected any positions to open up. Of course, wait until at least October/November before contacting folks. And name drop liberally if you have any connections, e.g., "I have worked with Dr. so-and-so, who mentioned you have a strong post doc program. Do you anticipate having positions open for the 20xx year?"
 
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I stayed in the same area where I didy internship and as a result of some of the connections I had made was able to get a job in community mental health. They paid me about the same as a masters level therapist and provided supervision for half a year and then I had to pay for it myself. It wasn't a formal postdoc so I refer to this year in various ways depending on the audience. When applying to my first job as a licensed psychologist, I just talked about my practical experience without really delineating practicums, internship, or postdoc because I was being interviewed by an educator and a businessman and they could care less about those details. They just wanted to know what I had done.
 
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It depends on what you want to do. While the APPIC directory is a good place to look, tons of opportunities get emailed out on listservs (e.g., APA division 38 - health psychology continues to have a near constant stream), some professional organizations also have postings. More still get posted on job boards for universities, hospitals, and regular job recruitment websites. Ask around and use your connections.

Now, the bit about where you want to be. Not all states require post-doc supervision hours -- my last count was 12 that did not -- you generally have to have a certain amount of hours and though there are some rules about when/how you accrued them, there is flexibility as to when you accrued them. I suspect that it is easier to get jobs in these states than those that require a post-doc hours for licensure. That said, the VA where I completed internship often hired fresh-out-of-internship grads and provided them with the necessary supervision.

Another not uncommon route is applying for licensure in one of these states and then applying to jobs at VAs (or DoD) nationally as you only need to be licensed in any state. Admittedly, this is tough to do if you do not have connections at the VA at which you want to work -- you'll be competing with those who did complete post-docs.

As for me, I went straight into academia, so my time after is not referred to as post-doc, but different roles in different places probably do depending on the local laws (each state has rules for what you call people and when). As I mentioned, my state doesn't require post-doc supervision, so I studied for the EPPP and was fully licensed within 6 months of graduation. I chose this route over a post-doc because I spent a really long time in grad school (7 years including internship) by the time it was over I could not stomach another year of being a trainee AND I wanted to move on with my life financially. I also chose to forego postdoc because I got a tenure track offer in commutable distance from my home. I didn't want to roll the dice, take a post-doc, and hope I'd be just as lucky the following year. If we ever move to another state and I need post-doc hours, I'll figure it out when I get there. This is the biggest con of foregoing post-doc that I can think of. Anyway, all of this is to say its so dependent upon your personal life circumstances -- where you are, where you want to be, what you want to do, etc. For me, a tenure-track offer in hand, double the salary when accounting for 9 month contract, and state laws that allowed me to get licensed without a post-doc far outweighed the risks of perhaps being less competitive for clinical jobs in the future and reduced portability of my license. For other friends a post-doc was clearly the best (or only acceptable) route for their goals.

Congrats on matching and best of luck.

Thank you so much for sharing your journey! It's really helpful to hear examples like this. It's amazing that you got a tenure track job where you want to live, wow! I'm looking into the requirements for licensing in the states that I'm open to living in now. I'll also make sure to pay better attention to emails I get from listserves now, just to start getting a sense of available positions.
 
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I stayed in the same area where I didy internship and as a result of some of the connections I had made was able to get a job in community mental health. They paid me about the same as a masters level therapist and provided supervision for half a year and then I had to pay for it myself. It wasn't a formal postdoc so I refer to this year in various ways depending on the audience. When applying to my first job as a licensed psychologist, I just talked about my practical experience without really delineating practicums, internship, or postdoc because I was being interviewed by an educator and a businessman and they could care less about those details. They just wanted to know what I had done.

Thanks for sharing your journey with me! It wasn't really on my radar that I may have to pay for supervision to finish hours. I know that many people use their internship connections to get their first job, and this is a worry for me, since I don't want to stay in the area where I am going on internship. Sometimes my network has connections in other cities though that surprise me, so I guess you never know.

Anyone have any advice specifically for building up a network in the area where you hope to relocate?
 
Thanks for sharing your journey with me! It wasn't really on my radar that I may have to pay for supervision to finish hours. I know that many people use their internship connections to get their first job, and this is a worry for me, since I don't want to stay in the area where I am going on internship. Sometimes my network has connections in other cities though that surprise me, so I guess you never know.

Anyone have any advice specifically for building up a network in the area where you hope to relocate?

Contact psychologists in that area, briefly describe your background and what you want to do, and ask if they know of any postdoc (or first job with supervision) opportunities beginning in month, year.
 
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I'm curious about the timeline for applying, interviewing, and securing a formal postdoc? Can anyone provide some insight?
 
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if you go the postdoc route, postdoc seeking/applying/interviewing is by-and-large, a less stress-inducing process. Plus, unlike internship you have the potential to get multiple offers, which is both so cool and at the same time, brings its own new level of existential angst IMO.
 
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I'm curious about the timeline for applying, interviewing, and securing a formal postdoc? Can anyone provide some insight?
For the most part, many postdoc apps are due sometime between early Dec and mid Feb. Interviews and time to hear back vary widely. For my current postdoc I had a Dec 1 deadline, interviews in late Jan and late Feb (phone/skype), offer in mid March. That being said, especially if you're on a variety of listservs, postdoc offers roll out year-round.

Edit: I meant postings/announcements for open positions get rolled out year round, not offers (although that does also imply that offers come year-round too :) )
 
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Thanks for sharing your journey with me! It wasn't really on my radar that I may have to pay for supervision to finish hours. I know that many people use their internship connections to get their first job, and this is a worry for me, since I don't want to stay in the area where I am going on internship. Sometimes my network has connections in other cities though that surprise me, so I guess you never know.

Anyone have any advice specifically for building up a network in the area where you hope to relocate?

I was in a similar position, with an internship in a state I had no intention of staying in, and knew exactly where I wanted to head next, but had zero connections there professionally, which put me at a disadvantage. I applied for formal postdocs in the December-January wave, but they were very competitive in the areas I was applying, and due to not being selected past the interview stage, moved on to the next step of just looking for jobs at the end of my internship and beyond. Basically I did job searches via craigslist and indeed.com until jobs popped up that stated that they provided supervision to clinicians seeking licensure. I was able to find an "unofficial" postdoc (and turned down a second offer), and they considered me to officially be a "clinician intern" while I got my postdoc hours. It worked out fine for me. Point being, official postdocs are highly competitive in some areas given that there are less postdoc positions than internship positions by far, so the unofficial route is a great alternative.

Networking-wise, ultimately, I just had to apply to jobs and start interviewing to build my own network. It did help indirectly to get on county psychological association LISTSERVs in the places I wanted to be, and some memberships are free for students and postdocs. I posted on them and got a few people responding seeking part-time help, which wasn't feasible for me at the time, but was nice to get some interest and also helps with networking.
 
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