Kingman Osteopathic Internship...warnings.

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MalignantJuan

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For those thinking about ranking Kingman, Arizona for internship match 2008 the following is some first-hand experience. As a recent visitor to the facility for several months I was dismayed at how terrible the house staff was treated. Several had voiced their thoughts about just regretting coming here. The program offers ER, FM, Dermatology. Over the course of the last 2 years they have lost 3 program directors, hired new Director of Med. Ed. that (according to some) is taking the program in a very wrong direction, lost the GME coordinator, and have a lot of political battles. Some precepting physicians wont even talk to the house staff let alone have them on their service for "political reasons". It seems that they go out of their way to make the residents/interns life difficult. Which, I've observed, made for a very disgruntled group of physicians. If you like the ED, all you'll be doing here is functioning as an urgent-care/FP for afterhours care for people that refuse to go to their primary care. Forget about interesting trauma, let alone emergencies! :scared:
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Just curious - what's your current status? Pre-med? Med student?
 
Seems like someone is honestly trying lower there competition.
 
or maybe it's just someone trying to help out his/her colleagues. we'll probably never know. people who've interviewed there can decide for themselves. i think it's sad that one of the first assumptions is that this person has a malicious intention - that's a commentary on who we are as a profession.
 
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I had gone there for a month earlier in 2007 and I can definitely vouch for what malignantjuan has said. In fact, what I heard from some of the residents and interns is that ever since the new DME came, there have been a lot of changes and restrictions levied upon the residents. Not a single one had a decent thing to say about the residency program in general. Heck, their FP program still doesn't have a program director. I also think it's sad that this is the only other DO residency in the western most states that offers emergency medicine. Didn't really like talking with some of the ER docs. The ones I had to talk to while consulting were complete asses and I even saw them berate the residents sometimes in front of the patients. Highly unprofessional. I swear, it's like these people fear them more than respect them. I don't know why they put up with their BS.

But definitely, for those who are even considering going there, even for ER, beware. Treat it like a priceless golden idol in an Aztec cave. Though it may be tempting, and you want it so bad, and there is only one path, know that it's surrounded by a bunch of lethal death traps that will suck you in for all eternity. Therefore it's best to leave it alone.

All I can say is thank God for Radiology. I won't ever have to deal with this kind of crap. :thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:
 
Hey RaDO... I'm glad someone else agrees. Seriously my colleagues, I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from a place I won't even rank or even consider interviewing at. This is simply an opinion and you may be desperate when the match rolls around for an place to go but take it from me-there are much better places. You deserve a good education in order become a good doctor and be respected as a physician after four-years of Fire & Brimstone of Medical school. Thus I assure you than Kingman is not that place that will deliver such privileges. A place like this has made people miserable and regret their decision to go into Medicine.

Take this 2nd-hand opinion for what it is. Either way, I know I'm right. Good luck to all...I'm goin' to FL!!!
 
Malignntjuan = 2 posts
RaiDOactive = 1 post....and boom ban kaboom :eek:

I bet "you guys" know each other really, really well ;) :laugh: :smuggrin:.

Though, I must say that creating an account (or two ?) on SDN just to tell the World "truth" is very, very noble. :sleep:
 
You know what? It's a residency program. What do you expect? We have our personal infights and conflicts. Some are solved well, others are just a Pandora's box full of hurt if opened. I can attest that, yes, we have as of late had a few brushes with what we as residents want for our learning curriculum and what our GME directors already have planned for us, and on some occasions, we don't see eye to eye. Some issues, we still don't. So I wouldn't be too haste about discrediting some students who think it's bad news. They're only there for a month at a time. We're here for many more. We get to see the bigger picture, where they get to see only a slice of our life.

If students are easily dissuaded from rotating here based on a post on a message board, that's their perogative. They can do what they want. It's their tuition, their education. If they still want to come here despite what they hear, again...their choice.

We still do have some awesome preceptors that students can learn from. My favorites, as it is for most residents here, is Drs. Matheny and Nguyen.

So stay for the learning, if at least that. Students have plenty of time to decide whether or not you want to do your residency here. Otherwise, leave the posters alone. Not everyone will be pleased. Everyone's a critic. Let them be heard. Besides, isn't that the reason why we have forums?
 
LeemerDO said:
You know what? It's a residency program. What do you expect? We have our personal infights and conflicts. Some are solved well, others are just a Pandora's box full of hurt if opened. I can attest that, yes, we have as of late had a few brushes with what we as residents want for our learning curriculum and what our GME directors already have planned for us, and on some occasions, we don't see eye to eye. Some issues, we still don't. So I wouldn't be too haste about discrediting some students who think it's bad news. They're only there for a month at a time. We're here for many more. We get to see the bigger picture, where they get to see only a slice of our life.

If students are easily dissuaded from rotating here based on a post on a message board, that's their perogative. They can do what they want. It's their tuition, their education. If they still want to come here despite what they hear, again...their choice.

We still do have some awesome preceptors that students can learn from. My favorites, as it is for most residents here, is Drs. Matheny and Nguyen.

So stay for the learning, if at least that. Students have plenty of time to decide whether or not you want to do your residency here. Otherwise, leave the posters alone. Not everyone will be pleased. Everyone's a critic. Let them be heard. Besides, isn't that the reason why we have forums?
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There is no issue with a person (student or otherwise) posting a negative review of a residency program. We agree that all POVs need to be heard.

The issue is when two brand new posters register from the same IP and post the same message. It appears that its one person, with two (or more) identities (which is an SDN TOS violation) drumming up support for their POV. They are entitled to their POV, but not to multiple accounts.

As always - caveat emptor - do not rely on SDN or any other resources as your sole source of information.
 
I know a person that recently went to Kingman for residency. I'm not sure exactly what, if anything, this reflects upon the program, but this person annoyed me so much that I would have willingly sat out a year rather than be this person's residency classmate. In addition, this person had a propensity for getting on people's nerves. Interesting thread.
 
an er serving as primary care for pts that refuse to go their fp's office or who want to be seen after hours? That's unheard of. That's outrageous.
 
I am an intern in Kingman, I may be the person that annoys you so much (Valsalva) for all I know, but I do know that I am happy to be working with every other intern in the class. We do have our “quirks” though.

As for the rest of this thread, I can’t say the warnings are unsubstantiated. Some of the interns are being outright shafted (ousted). There are some changes that have been in flux for quite a while and the program is becoming much less family friendly. To its credit, we will probably be better prepared physicians for it. Some changes don’t seem to be in our best interest in any way however, but rather make it more rigorous just for the sake of making it harder.

Every year the intern class has been labeled as a bunch of whiners and the ED docs like to rough us up a bit. The DME is married to the ED director (ex military) and it is an ignored conflict of interest. Her attitude towards the residents is an obvious reflection of her husband’s opinion. I think she would be better if she wasn’t being fed biased info.

There are a lot of good things here too. I love most of the people I work with, senior residents and attendings. The truth is I have looked into leaving. I have plenty of options (I’m not looking into EM programs) But I don’t want to move, so I’ll PROBABLY stay and hope things get better. If I left it would probably be the same crap elsewhere….That’s what I keep telling myself anyway. :oops:
 
Arizona
138492 mwu-azcom/kingman reg med ctr
kingman.............................funded filled open
em......................................4 ...... 1 .... 3
fp.......................................3 ...... 2 .... 1


total...................................7 ...... 3 .... 4

Ha ha!

Now suck it!:smuggrin:
 
I'm confused. Are you celebrating that only half your PGY-1 spots filled? I actually heard good things about this program last year. One of my fellow interns said it was their favorite program, but they wanted to be in a bigger city. Kind of made me wonder if I should have interviewed here last year (I turned it down because it was January already, and I was strapped for cash from all the interviewing already).
 
Drawing Dead said:
I'm confused. Are you celebrating that only half your PGY-1 spots filled? I actually heard good things about this program last year. One of my fellow interns said it was their favorite program, but they wanted to be in a bigger city. Kind of made me wonder if I should have interviewed here last year (I turned it down because it was January already, and I was strapped for cash from all the interviewing already).
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Well first of all, I am no longer there. In fact, very few of the interns that entered in 07 are still there. Now going there as a medical student, the rotation experience is probably much better than being a resident because you would have the advantage and benefit of actually leaving Kingman and not be a part of the drama and BS that you don't get to see which does occur in the background. You will not have to experience the irrational and downright volatile and malignant behavior as witnessed by many in regards to senior hospital staff and some attending physicians. Be glad you turned down the interview. Your time is truly better spent elsewhere. All I can say is that as long as the current powers that be are still in charge, that program is going to be run into the ground.

So when I see that their program is less than half filled, after all the grief, stress, and strife that they put me through only to give me the finger afterwards, I definitely deserve to rejoice in the fact that a reckoning has arrived and justice has been served.

Combined with another hospital that is due to open soon, it is quite certain that this hospital as a whole is going to lose quite a bit of profitshare, and possibly a good chunk of experienced staff.
 
I was just confused, because last year, your post made it seem like you were quite happy there. I guess things have changed. Good luck to you, and thanks for the reassurance. Sometimes it's tough in a Chicago winter not to regret trying to go somewhere warmer.
 
Drawing Dead said:
I was just confused, because last year, your post made it seem like you were quite happy there. I guess things have changed. Good luck to you, and thanks for the reassurance. Sometimes it's tough in a Chicago winter not to regret trying to go somewhere warmer.
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Good luck to you too. I just don't want anyone to make the same mistake as I did and be stuck with the consequences afterwards. It truly is a big commitment to essentially uproot yourself into another location only to have the rug pulled out from under you afterwards. May your future medical career plans pan out exactly how you want them to.
 
LeemerDO said:
Good luck to you too. I just don't want anyone to make the same mistake as I did and be stuck with the consequences afterwards. It truly is a big commitment to essentially uproot yourself into another location only to have the rug pulled out from under you afterwards. May your future medical career plans pan out exactly how you want them to.
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What would you do - or have done otherwise?
 
MalignantJuan said:
For those thinking about ranking Kingman, Arizona for internship match 2008 the following is some first-hand experience. As a recent visitor to the facility for several months I was dismayed at how terrible the house staff was treated. Several had voiced their thoughts about just regretting coming here. The program offers ER, FM, Dermatology. Over the course of the last 2 years they have lost 3 program directors, hired new Director of Med. Ed. that (according to some) is taking the program in a very wrong direction, lost the GME coordinator, and have a lot of political battles. Some precepting physicians wont even talk to the house staff let alone have them on their service for "political reasons". It seems that they go out of their way to make the residents/interns life difficult. Which, I've observed, made for a very disgruntled group of physicians. If you like the ED, all you'll be doing here is functioning as an urgent-care/FP for afterhours care for people that refuse to go to their primary care. Forget about interesting trauma, let alone emergencies! :scared:
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this happens everywhere ...welcome to medicine
 
This sounds like major badness over and above what one would expect at a residency program. Yes, there is generally some amount of "office politics" at any program, and sometimes there is conflict between straight academic attendings and community preceptor type attendings, and also interns in particular tend to take the most scut and abuse, but what is described above is definitely >> normal problems.
 
This hospital has essentially been the only business in town. They have for right now an absolute monopoly in regards to healthcare needs of the community. With it comes a sense of arrogance and a "don't f u ck with me attitude!" Especially since it's been there for quite some time, it gradually settles into this "Old boy's club" way of operating a hospital.
That will soon change. They have a new hospital opening up across town, Hualapai Mountain Medical Center generally of equal distance for accepting emergencies. I truly hope it bites a big fat chunk into their bottom line. I also hope that a good fraction of their staff leaves for the new hospital as well. Hell, I heard they already issued blanket threats that if any one does leave for the new hospital, then don't bother coming back to KRMC. Now if you're already pissed at your current employer and looking to change anyways, what's that gonna do to stop you from leaving anyways?

This hospital is in need of some serious reform from the top down, but that's most likely not going to happen anytime soon, so therefore, I hope this other hospital makes their lives a living hell and exacerbates their failure. Then hopefully, they can hit the reset button, hire better management, and kick the old regime $hit bags to the curb.

I still wish the best for my friends who are still there, and that they escape the holds of that place very soon.
 
Every hospital has its politics. Every residency has its problems. Every story has 2 sides.
The question everyone should be asking is why isn't LeemerDO there anymore? Somehow I doubt the answer is as one-sided as he suggests. I've met some graduates of that program, all of which were pretty impressive.
 
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I am a not too distant/recent graduate of the Kingman EM program and am currently employed some 800 miles from the site. I can say with certainty and personal satisfaction that I feel I received the best training available and from recent converstations with my ER director, and based on my being offered full partnership 2 years ahead of schedule, he feels the same. I can tell you based on my extensive expirence in the health care field (12 yrs in medicine at more than one hospital, before even going to medical school) that the treatment residents receive is somewhat benign. Yes, there are many political challenges and personality conflicts there as there are in any hospital. By their very nature hospitals are a place of politics and this can not be avoided. The real issues you should be concerned with are can you and will you get a top notch education and will you learn very important lessons about how to get along in the very challenging field. It is my expirence that you will and do at this program. I can certainly tell you one thing for sure, if you can't deal with the politics and personality issues in residency, you will be eaten alive when you enter the "real world." I would encourage any of you considering Kingman to ask to speak to graduates of the program in helping to make your decision.
 
Can anyone elaborate on the points:

1. I have heard that all residencies are tough, especially the top programs, like JHU, where they really make you work very hard. This is supposed to train you better. So when we talk about malignancy, what is exactly meant by it? Is it long hours of work or too much criticism of your work? I have experienced politics in the corporate world, but here the politics mainly existed because I was always trying to move up - so did a few others - and this sometimes can create tensions with the management. Now in residency there is no vertical mobility anyway, right? So I don't know if a power struggle is even applicable

2. Do you have the option to invite current residents and recent graduates from the program to dinner (away from the hospital) and discuss with them the pros and cons of the program under relaxed conditions? Would it be rude to ask the program the contact information of some of their recent graduates? The problem with this is that they might give you only the contact information to people who will review them positively. But then the dilemma is how do you know that the person you interviewed wasn't either negatively or positively biased towards the program? So this means you have to really increase your sample size to at least three people. This is why your best bet is probably hearing positive things about the program from most of the people, both inside and outside of the program. If you don't hear much this way, then I guess the only other alternative is to interview mutliple people from within a program.

I guess scutwork.com isn't working as well as it should.
 
Excelsius said:
... I have experienced politics in the corporate world, but here the politics mainly existed because I was always trying to move up - so did a few others - and this sometimes can create tensions with the management. Now in residency there is no vertical mobility anyway, right? So I don't know if a power struggle is even applicable...
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Nevertheless, it's all about the power-dynamics. You have med students, residents PGY-1s, PGY-2s, ... PGY-Ns, fellows PGY-N+1s..., junior attendings, senior attendings, run-of-the-mill nurses, RNs, PAs, OTs, med techs, secretaries, lab techs, etc. etc. most of them having been employed by said institution a lot longer then you. As an intern/junior resident, you're pretty much at the bottom of the totem pole, even below the med students, because at least they pay tuition. Everyone knows it. You had better know it, else you will find yourself in a world of personality clashes... and we'll see you story here about how you were released from your contract...
 
PowerRanger said:
Every hospital has its politics. Every residency has its problems. Every story has 2 sides.
The question everyone should be asking is why isn't LeemerDO there anymore? Somehow I doubt the answer is as one-sided as he suggests. I've met some graduates of that program, all of which were pretty impressive.
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And I do not doubt that they probably did graduate some impressive doctors. That was never the issue. What I took exception to was how my intern class and myself were poorly treated. This included baseless accusations lodged against us, arbitrary changes to our curriculum without notification to us, restricting us from doing out of area rotations solely for financial reasons, and blatant work hours violations among the highlights of this program, or at least under the auspices of this current DME.
FYI PowerRanger, I decided very early on back in January of my intern year there that I refused to be jerked around anymore by the DME and subsequent program directors and leave KRMC due to the fact that after numerous attempts to elicit a straight and concrete answer from anyone who would know anything in regards to my disposition for the next year, no one had the cojones to tell me a straight answer. Opportunities were coming up and closing fast, so basically, before they had a chance to "decline to renew my contract," I had already landed a new position elsewhere. Needless to say, we both gave each other the middle finger.
Fortunately, I made my own lifeboat prior to them "releasing" me.

Plus, I'm pretty sure the experience was entirely different back then since they did not have newbie unqualified directors and some of the same a $$ Holes in charge.
 
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To address the very valid and intelligent queries posted by Excelsius:

1. When I "speak" of malignancy I am referring to the overall treatment of housestaff by attendings, administration, ancillary personnel, and the GME staff. I mean by this, that overall it is not an unpleasant or even very difficulty place to work. Yes, at times you will be critized for what you do and how you do it, even when you know damn good and well that you're right. Yes, you will be asked at times to make sacrafices, that is what this career you have chosen is all about. If you think that residency is hard on you emotionally, physically and spiritually you are correct, but it is nothing compared to the fires you will walk through every day of your professional life. You must develop a thick skin NOW!!

2. A smart candidate will make sure that she/he asks to spend time away from the facility/faculty with the current residents. During every orientation that took place for interns when I was a resident this was a planned activity. The senior class pulled aside interns repeatedly when they arrived to offer them advice, suggestions, recommendations and cautionary tales to make their transition from med student to housestaff easier and to help them to become outstanding candidates for our residency program. Unfortunately, some of those interns who were not chosen by the program for residency chose to ignore that advice/recommendations/suggestions. I have told the EM Director at Kingman that he may give out my contact information and I have encouraged others to do the same.

Internship/Residency is like anything else you do in life...you get out of it what you put into it. NO IT IS NOT EASY!!!!!! and thank God or whatever higher power you believe in, that it is not, because the "real world" certainly isn't. If you want to discuss this further and are truly a serious candidate considering Kingman, call the residency director and ask for contact information.

Good luck to you. Be smart, be ready and work hard.
 
Interesting how this thread has gained new life. I was one of the 5/7 interns who left. I know Leemer well as well as the other 07 class. What he said is correct, he as well as the other interns left before it was decided who was staying and who was not. It was clear that people were getting the boot, but nobody knew who it was going to be, and the program didnt seem to have much desire to let the class know what was going on, while the time for other opportunities was passing by, putting whomever was leaving at a huge disadvantage. It was very unprofessional. But that was only one of the problems.
I have gone to another program and have learned a few things. Residency sucks no matter where you go. Kingmans political problems were different though, and I can say that most of the problems came from a micro managing DME that didnt know what the hell was going on because she only spent 1/2 day/wk there, but still tried to micromanage. Realemdoc graduated before her time. She became DME right before we started.
The basics of the residency program: (at least internship) The rotations are pretty easy, get home early because there's not much to do....most of the time. It was NOT hard work. I felt like a med student (fly on the wall) too much of the time. There is no inpatient service. The staff at the hospital was for the most part great to us and I miss them a lot. The education was LACKING, at least in internship. The ER is a high stress environment like most ED's and I believe will train you well. There is little down time in there. Its the other rotations that are slow.
I left for a much harder program, Ive questioned my decision to leave more than once, but I know it was the right move for me. I feel my education now is superior to what I was getting in Kingman, though I pay for it with time, and although the transition to my new program was HARD on me and my family, We are way happier now.
There is another issue that hasnt been brought up on this thread, but it was at least 50% of why I left. Kingman itself was not a pleasant place to live. Bad schools, drugs, dirt, wind. There are nice areas in Kingman, but trash around the corner, hard to get away from it. Not a good place for my family. Though, I do have to say I miss it more than I thought I would. Ive lived in a lot of places and Kingman was my least favorite place Ive lived.
There is good and bad there, I think Ive addressed the major points. That was my experience there and I can only speak for myself. To some people it may sound like paradise. Im happier not being at a place where at a graduation ceremony a DME has the balls to bitch about the laziness of a whole generation of graduating physicians in her freaking speech. But unto each their own.
 
Ah yes, that motivating and from the heart graduation speech. How can I forget that mulligan and the antics that occurred all throughout that dinner, specifically her spouse?

While we're on that topic, how about the heart to hearts that we interns had to nauseatingly choke down with her on numerous occasions? Case in point:
<The DME sticking out her arm straight to the side pointing at it with her other hand> "Here's the bar."
<then repeatedly pokes her arm underneath as we watch the loose skin waddle> "You guys are just touching it...just touching it."

I can laugh at it now because it was about as disgusting as it was surreal in the fact that we were being talked down to like first graders.

Actually, what should spark some interest to anyone who goes there is ask what happened to the previous residency coordinator and the reasons why was she abruptly fired? It'll just go to show another example of irrational behavior on the DME's part.
 
I was told something by one of the previous interns in this program that was disturbing. When the new DME came on board there were several violations to work hours. Specifically there would be rotations away from Kingman in outlying small towns (that could be arranged within Kingman) that took upwards of an hour and half to drive (about 60-70miles away). Some interns who were post call overnight would be required to drive out there, perform a whole day's work in the clinic, and drive back. That totals about 36hours of constant patient contact with intermittent driving without sleep. Some interns reported they almost fell asleep while driving. A bit dangerous, right? I understand hard-work is part of learning but this is a bit too much.
 
In response to MalignantJuan.... you forget the 2 hours we were allowed for "adequate" time between shifts. You would work a full day till 5 pm, take 2 hours "to rest" then start your call at 7PM, work till 7 AM then drive 1 hr to Havasu or Fort Mohave work till your preceptor closed shop...often after 6pm, then make the drive back.
This is a "loop hole" in the AOA rules. The ACGME requires 10 hrs between shifts, whereas the AOA requires "Adequate time" between shifts making the 30 hr rule pointless. If you give 2 hrs somewhere inbetween you can have the residents work as long as you want. This was Dr. Matheny's interpretation. I respect Dr. Matheny in most regards, but as a "family man" I was surprised he would advocate such a thing. I refused to make these drives because I wont risk my life for a stupid career. My family would be destroyed by my death. I went home and kept my mouth shut....if I wasnt able to switch my call around. It was rare, but it happened.
My program now, which is hard and sometimes a bit on the malignant side at times offered me a taxi home one day when I was post call and obviously very tired. That would never happen in Kingman. They would expect you to buck up and take it like a resident.
In Kingman, they seemed to try to make your life hell while not adding to your education....but in the name of education. It was kinda pathetic.
This discussion is to give prospective residents a chance to see what is to be expected if they decided to take a position at a particular program. Of course they should take all this information with a grain of salt. Realemdocs comments are appreciated as well. He/She obviously had a different/better experience there then me and the 5 interns who left. Perhaps the newer batch of residents are having a great experience there. I would encourage medical students to talk to everyone they can, not just one person the program connects you with. Im sure Dr LeemerDO remembers how their prospective students where kept far away from the horribly lazy misfit interns in the 07 class....lol. I remember how enthusiastic and motivated we were at the beginning of the year, and I dont think I need to explain how we all felt at the end of the year. Funny though how all the same lazy misfits are happy with their current positions. Best of luck to all of us that have chosen this very challenging career, and may our rewards outweigh the unavoidable drawbacks.
 
moabnut said:
In response to MalignantJuan.... you forget the 2 hours we were allowed for "adequate" time between shifts. You would work a full day till 5 pm, take 2 hours "to rest" then start your call at 7PM, work till 7 AM then drive 1 hr to Havasu or Fort Mohave work till your preceptor closed shop...often after 6pm, then make the drive back.
This is a "loop hole" in the AOA rules. The ACGME requires 10 hrs between shifts, whereas the AOA requires "Adequate time" between shifts making the 30 hr rule pointless. If you give 2 hrs somewhere inbetween you can have the residents work as long as you want. This was Dr. Matheny's interpretation. I respect Dr. Matheny in most regards, but as a "family man" I was surprised he would advocate such a thing. I refused to make these drives because I wont risk my life for a stupid career. My family would be destroyed by my death. I went home and kept my mouth shut....if I wasnt able to switch my call around. It was rare, but it happened.
My program now, which is hard and sometimes a bit on the malignant side at times offered me a taxi home one day when I was post call and obviously very tired. That would never happen in Kingman. They would expect you to buck up and take it like a resident.
In Kingman, they seemed to try to make your life hell while not adding to your education....but in the name of education. It was kinda pathetic.
This discussion is to give prospective residents a chance to see what is to be expected if they decided to take a position at a particular program. Of course they should take all this information with a grain of salt. Realemdocs comments are appreciated as well. He/She obviously had a different/better experience there then me and the 5 interns who left. Perhaps the newer batch of residents are having a great experience there. I would encourage medical students to talk to everyone they can, not just one person the program connects you with. Im sure Dr LeemerDO remembers how their prospective students where kept far away from the horribly lazy misfit interns in the 07 class....lol. I remember how enthusiastic and motivated we were at the beginning of the year, and I dont think I need to explain how we all felt at the end of the year. Funny though how all the same lazy misfits are happy with their current positions. Best of luck to all of us that have chosen this very challenging career, and may our rewards outweigh the unavoidable drawbacks.
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Yeah, I swear, if I had to hear another, "You know, back when I was a resident, we had it so much tougher in this way and that way, etc. You guys have it so easy" type of story, I was gonna not only vomit, but then start shanking people. Yes, I understand that "back in the day," before humanity was forced upon residency, it was the dark ages where brutality and abuse were the norm and what didn't kill you made you stronger. However, these same individuals also fail to realize that with that abuse came with it a higher treatment error ratio, increased chances of needlesticks and other occupational hazards, and increased risk of accidents whether they be at work, on the road, or at home. What exactly was gained by someone losing their life or their livelihood in the grand scheme of medical education? These ACGME changes were brought about to improve the quality of what was learned while minimizing the risk to ourselves and others as much as possible. Those who insist on regurgitating history to the point where they want to re-live it have deeper seeded power and dominance issues. It's like that boot camp mentality of "I've gone through this, so you will too, and then some." I'm also reminded of a piece of despair.com wisdom, "Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid."

So though I respect that elder doctors had it way worse than I ever will, I draw the line at being subjugated to the same conditions. That is the sign of true progress, when you improve upon the mistakes that you learned from the past so you WILL NOT REPEAT THEM!!!!!

Is that so hard to do?
 
Seriously, getting down to what really matters-your education. People only notice Kingman because of the ED-program which is popular these days. But if you want to see interesting cases, treat real emergencies and have a good sense that you are trained well, Kingman ER is not the place. I precepted many attendings and it seems all they do is Urgent care work there. Colds, coughs, ankle sprains. Chest pain rule out MI was bread/butter. People would come in all the time homeless, drug overdosed or just because they had no PCP and need a rash evaluated. There is no Ortho, CT, trauma support. If the ICU was out of vents, patients were transferred out which many of the interesting ones were. The whole experience was rather poor, it seems, in training for ER. Caring for patients is never the complaint-they should call it a Urgent Care/medicine residency instead.
 
MalignantJuan said:
Seriously, getting down to what really matters-your education. People only notice Kingman because of the ED-program which is popular these days. But if you want to see interesting cases, treat real emergencies and have a good sense that you are trained well, Kingman ER is not the place. I precepted many attendings and it seems all they do is Urgent care work there. Colds, coughs, ankle sprains. Chest pain rule out MI was bread/butter. People would come in all the time homeless, drug overdosed or just because they had no PCP and need a rash evaluated. There is no Ortho, CT, trauma support. If the ICU was out of vents, patients were transferred out which many of the interesting ones were. The whole experience was rather poor, it seems, in training for ER. Caring for patients is never the complaint-they should call it a Urgent Care/medicine residency instead.
Click to expand...

Oh, if only the AOA would open up more ER speciality residencies in the west. It kinda sucks when most DO residency programs for ER are typically relegated to the midwest and east coast hospitals.
I do wonder if KRMC could stand on their own two feet if more residency programs offering the same thing were nearby. Would their appeal be the same? It would be interesting to see.
 
I'm currently an emergency medicine resident at Kingman Regional Medical Center. While previous posters are certainly entitled to share their opinion regarding their intern year, they've strayed a long ways. I don't think I'm in a position to comment on their internship but I also don't think that a month in the ED and sitting in on lectures qualifies them to comment meaningfully on our EM program. So here's a little more information if anyone is interested.

- The angry posters were interns at KRMC for a traditional rotating internship. They were not emergency medicine residents.
- There are very few fields anymore which require an internship (Anesthesia, Radiology, any others?). KRMC has none of these residency programs. There is not much point in warning people away from a program that no longer exists.
- PGY 1’s here are first year residents and treated as such. They spend 6 months in the ED and the other six in IM, Gen Surg, Peds, Ortho, Pulm/Critical Care, and Cardiology.
- Kingman is a small town between Phoenix and Las Vegas. It is hot, dusty, windy and not a place most people would call their dream town. Many of the public schools are lacking. Shopping and nightlife are particularly limited. If these are pre-requisites for you then it might not be the best fit. However, it is also close to the Grand Canyon, Supai Falls, Lake Havasu, and lots of boating, hiking, and biking. The nightlife of Vegas is less than 2 hours away.
- Yes, we see our share of coughs and colds and urgent care stuff. I don't think there is an emergency department in the country that doesn't. It is probably going to get worse before it gets better, if it ever does.
- We see plenty of emergent cases. I cannot count the number of times attendings who trained elsewhere have commented that they have never seen some of the crap we see here on a regular basis. Our case-payor mix bears this out.
- Kingman has a lot of crime. While this may not make for the nicest of places to live we see plenty of its by-products being wheeled into the department. I don't think I've ever heard a resident complain that they just don't get enough assaults, blunt trauma, violent drunks, etc.
- While we get our share of GSW's we don't see as many as you would if you were to train in an inner-city program. At this point in my training I don't foresee that to be a problem. I don't think penetrating trauma makes up a high percentage of the patients at most community hospital ED's and I have no aspirations of working in downtown LA or its equivalent. Besides, penetrating trauma is a surgical problem and I know very few people beyond medical students that think trauma is cool or fun, and that includes trauma surgeons.
- We do out-rotations in Las Vegas and Phoenix for additional trauma and critical-care experience.
- We do have gaps in our on-call coverage. Unless you work in a tertiary care center I think that is the exception not the rule. I don't see how that is a negative for the program as it doesn't necessarily change our stabilization or medical management.
- We see about 45,000 patients a year in our ED. We take 4 residents per year. There are plenty of patients to go around.
- It is true we didn't fill in the match this year. I'm not entirely sure why that was. The angry posters feel this validates their rancor in some way. Personally I think it has more to do with being a 4-year program, being located in a small town, and the fact that the AOA forces you to withdraw from the DO match if you have any desire of ranking a 3-year or other ACGME program.
- I've been on out-rotations at several other hospitals and never have I felt that my training or skills were inferior to other residents around me. I feel very comfortable doing procedures.
- We have many talented staff physicians. Most are very willing to teach. We have access to all the technology you would expect at a training program. Our cath-lab is always busy. We recently started an open-heart program. Our hyperbaric chambers are usually full. This is definitely one of the nicer hospitals I've been in. Most of the ancillary staff are great.
- We graduated our first class in 2007. While I know we are a small, young program we nevertheless boast a 100% pass rate on boards.
- None of our graduates have had difficulty obtaining or retaining employment in their regional location of choice.
- As a program we scored above the mean compared to other AOA EM programs on this past year's in-service exam. Some of our residents had very high scores.
- 2 of our graduates have sought fellowship training; both were awarded their first choice in fellowship programs.
- Our residency was recently inspected and passed with a four-year renewal.
- We work hard. We see a lot of patients. We get tired. It's not always fun. I guess I had no illusions that residency would be otherwise.
 
I think Bandito brings out a lot of good points, and I wouldnt disagree with many of them. I never had a problem with the education in the ED. In fact, on my last inservice training exam I scored the very highest in emergency medicine, and I wasnt even an ED resident. I attribute this to training at KRMC. I have to mostly disagree with Malignantjuan from his last post. Most of what ERs see these days are urgent care, so you should be well trained in it as well as true emergencies, which I saw plenty of in my time in the ED at KRMC. I didnt always like the ED preceptors, but most are actually awesome. I felt the residents were unhappy, but most ED's feel about the same to me. The ED seems to suck your compassion out of you. The ER is not for me, I thought it was at one point of time, but I learned.
It is good KRMC does not have an intern program anymore, The FM residents can focus on FM, and EM residents can focus on EM. Maybe they can improve the education that way.
My problem with Kingman is mostly with the DME, which has absolutely no buisness being in education. In fact, I dont remember her teaching much at all. All I heard was her bitching about the interns...and thats about it. All her executive decisions seamed to be based around her hatred and distrust of the interns. And it is really surprising to me that her distrust issues and her decisions based on her "issues" would drastically change the life plans of 5/7 interns and cause them to decide to go elsewhere. And she did that only spending 1/2 day/wk there. Its amazing! She really should be canned and barred from being anywhere near anything educational. She even had the new PD for FM convinced all the interns where crap. For a while she treated us like crap, till she realized that the DME was crazy. She had a complete turnaround and became a much better educator for it. At least that was my impression before I left.
So if I seem angry, I guess I am in a way... but not at KRMC or most of the great staff. I made a decision to go to KRMC in 2007. I had other choices, I chose to go there because I thought it was the best choice out of all. I am mad because the actions of mostly one person made that the wrong choice. And like most physicians, I HATE to be wrong. I had to look my wife in the eye and actually say, "I was WRONG bringing you here." I could have sucked it up and stayed in Kingman insisting I made the right move, but I made another choice to leave, and it was the right choice.

I have to laugh, this thread seems to be an argument between the have been there's, and the still are there's. I hope somebody finds it useful, but I doubt it.
 
I also agree that I did see my share of crazy stuff that I have yet to see again in Kingman. Let me also emphasize that I only wish they had more DO ER residencies in the western states. That's an observation that's clear to everyone. Not everyone wants to live in a small town, but then again, they don't want to move clear across the country either, or their desire to live some place more west overcomes their common senses when faced with a lack of choices.
Another point that we former interns always intended to point out throughout all of this is that this program has the potential to be very good... provided a select few individuals who run things there are no longer there, or in a position to make decisions.
The ones we hated the most there were those who liked to DRAW their own inaccurate conclusions about us. Another attending's volatile antics were a very VITAL part for us leaving, and for me personally was a crabby b!tch who always RUSHed to judgment.
All of them combined proved to be a good motivating factor to leave that place, preferably scorched earth style.
 
I know someone who is at Kingman. They are willing to start over - completely start a new residency - to get out of there. Yeah, it's not great.

No, I will not reveal any even partially revealing information about this person, and that includes sex, department, year of residency, state of origin, or medical school. They deserve privacy.
 
ShyRem said:
I know someone who is at Kingman. They are willing to start over - completely start a new residency - to get out of there. Yeah, it's not great.

No, I will not reveal any even partially revealing information about this person, and that includes sex, department, year of residency, state of origin, or medical school. They deserve privacy.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. As long as the bottom line is, something is definitely amiss in regards to how that residency is being run.
 
About to be a 4th year, looking for advice on Kingman's EM Res. Have heard negative comment from a 3rd year that did an ER rotation there in early 2011. Also, heard an attending at a competitor's program mention that the program is not good.

Anyone want to chime in that has been there recently (June 2010 to present)? Please only comment if you have been there recently, I do not want to rehash the entire thread from previous years.

I am seriously considering putting Kingman on my list of residency programs as it would work out well in my personal situation, but I will not have a chance to rotate there during 4th year. Therefore, I need others opinions. Of course the interview day will give me some insight, but not the entire situation.

Thank you in advance for posting valuable information.
 
I have a friend who tried to transfer. That was unsuccessful, so they actually reapplied for residency all over again. They were willing, after two years of residency, to restart from scratch because they felt their education was so poor.

They did not get another residency position. They have had at least two job offers that I am aware of, but only at level 4 trauma centers (or unranked). They have been unsuccessful garnering offers of employment at level 1 or 2 trauma centers.
 
Is this the program in AZ?

If so, while I'm not in the know of DO EM programs, being a DO though, I do know it's a POS program. Word spread like wildfire.... steer clear.
 
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