Job options with an MD (without residency)

Facing problems in your residency program? See how
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
beriberi said:
apd.mckinsey.com

The opportunity exists, but it (management consulting) is highly competitive. Yes, they take people with no business experience whatsoever, but the bar is set very high. They take a number of PhDs, JDs and other non-MBAs. Most MDs who apply do not find positions there.
Click to expand...
Just doing a quick search on thevault, it looks like offers are ballpark $120k + $15k guaranteed bonus. It's not bad, but it's also below average when compared to even FPs.

Management consulting superstars have a long career of rapid salary growth ahead of time... but "average" salaries for management consultants likely doesn't grow significantly beyond that $150k boundary either (assuming you aren't replaced quickly). And "superstar" medical doctors have a variety of money-making opportunities open to them as well.

Unless your personality really draws you to the corporate boardroom rather than the clinic... I really don't think the decision to go in that direction makes sense financially. The truth is, there are very, very few jobs in this country that pay as reliably and consistently well as medicine.

(By the way, I have a close friend who's a Columbia Law grad, and in his 6th year as associate at a top-20 law firm. He's making approximately $140k a year while working very long hours. His prospects of making partner at the firm are also very low... it requires a commitment similar to a decade-long surgical residency.)
 
i am a person who hasnt worked for 4 years and doesn't have the most impressive resume. i can't really get a residency job, and that makes me super depressed. how can i get a job that is medically aplicable and satisfying? i don't want to be the best, but i am sick and tired of sitting at home... thank you for listening to my rant. :)
 
heech said:
Just doing a quick search on thevault, it looks like offers are ballpark $120k + $15k guaranteed bonus. It's not bad, but it's also below average when compared to even FPs.

Management consulting superstars have a long career of rapid salary growth ahead of time... but "average" salaries for management consultants likely doesn't grow significantly beyond that $150k boundary either (assuming you aren't replaced quickly). And "superstar" medical doctors have a variety of money-making opportunities open to them as well.
Click to expand...

Most doctors cannot stroll into McKinsey or BCG and be given an offer. Salary growth is certainly better than you think, but those sorts of jobs are given out very sparingly-- even in health care consulting, for which McKinsey has a dedicated office in New Jersey-- to doctors. Pedigree is essential.


(By the way, I have a close friend who's a Columbia Law grad, and in his 6th year as associate at a top-20 law firm. He's making approximately $140k a year while working very long hours. His prospects of making partner at the firm are also very low... it requires a commitment similar to a decade-long surgical residency.)
Click to expand...

Partnership is definitely difficult, but if your friend is truly at a Vault Top20 firm then a) as a 6th year associate his pay + bonus should top $400,000; b) his exit options will be excellent. Most streamline into partnership at mid-tier firms.
 
RRS said:
You need to realize that medical school and residency isn't what being a doctor is like. Being an attending (academic or private) is whole lot different than being a student. It's very easy to get demoralized and project that kind of routine as your future. Spend some time with someone in private practice who likes their job before you assume the worst.

And keep in mind that no matter how specialized you get, most of your job will end up being routine. Routine bypass surgery. Routine well child check. Routine bipolar patient. But the patients as people become much more interesting than their diseases. That's what's interesting about medicine.


Finally, you don't JUST have to do medicine. I have a real estate company (for my own investments as well as helping physicians who are relocating). It's fun, something different than medicine, but hasn't required me to give up medicine.
Click to expand...

Best post ever :thumbup:
 
There are many career options for medical school graduates who do not do a residency. I'd suggest this to start: Jobs for Physicians with No Residency Experience

You don't necessarily need an MBA, an MPH, or any other master's degree to succeed. These degrees may equip you to be a better prepared for certain opportunities, but they are not a guarantee to success by themselves.

What's the secret? strong people skills and a robust social network. For more information and tips, visit: http://www.nonclinicaljobs.com/

Feel free to send me a PM if you have any other specific questions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
napoleondynamite said:
probably because an md degree from a us school is the most powerful set of initials that could follow anyone's name in the entire world..and would open up doors in any field, be it law, business, politics or medicine.. That's just a guess though.

People, why do we have to feel "baffled" anytime anyone inquires about alternate career paths, salary, lifestyle, etc? This moral elitist attitude that we should all devote ourselves to eternal suffering for the good of humanity, and ask no questions about the future or what our options are..that is what is baffling to me. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...


very very well said ... You'll do great!
D.c md
 
DrJosephKim,

What kind of non clinical jobs would be possible for FMGs without residency, here in the U.S.?
 
There are many professional jobs in medical affairs and scientific areas for physicians who have no residency experience. An MBA is not a requirement.

Common misconceptions regarding non-clinical careers for physicians:

  • Residency is required
  • MBA is required
  • Medical license is required
*These may be required for certain types of jobs (small minority), but the overwhelming majority of jobs that pay six figures do not require any of these.
 
DrJosephKim said:
There are many professional jobs in medical affairs and scientific areas for physicians who have no residency experience. An MBA is not a requirement.

Common misconceptions regarding non-clinical careers for physicians:

  • Residency is required
  • MBA is required
  • Medical license is required
*These may be required for certain types of jobs (small minority), but the overwhelming majority of jobs that pay six figures do not require any of these.
Click to expand...

And these are?
 
he is probably referring to jobs found on his job site: nonclinicaljobs.com
like medical writing, pharma, msl, etc.
 
turquoiseblue said:
he is probably referring to jobs found on his job site: nonclinicaljobs.com
like medical writing, pharma, msl, etc.
Click to expand...

Really?

We all know that, but he's so damn vague and generally useless in these threads that I felt he needed to be called on it.
 
I know of a prof who makes 100k/yr. He is an MD and took a break before residency.
 
sickofmcat said:
I know of a prof who makes 100k/yr. He is an MD and took a break before residency.
Click to expand...

Interesting job. Teaching. I know a friend of a friend who plans the same. He is MD.

Can MBBS-degreed people teach medical subject(s) in the states? I know people with that deg, MBBS (Bachelor of Med., Bachelor of Surgery), and if chosen to teach, are they treated the same as MDs?
 
Last edited:
sickofmcat said:
I know of a prof who makes 100k/yr. He is an MD and took a break before residency.
Click to expand...

what's he teaching? is he teaching at a college or at a medical school?
 
Last edited:
High school chemistry /bio teacher (A LOT of doctors are dropping out and doing this after YEARS in practice!!)

College professor: anatomy, medical ethics, physiology etc

MCAT, SAT teacher (some really good private tutors with only a BA charge up to $100/hour)
 
gutonc said:
Really?

We all know that, but he's so damn vague and generally useless in these threads that I felt he needed to be called on it.
Click to expand...


It's pretty clear why he's vague: he wants people to go to his site and increase site traffic = more ad revenue.
 
Substance said:
It's pretty clear why he's vague: he wants people to go to his site and increase site traffic = more ad revenue.
Click to expand...

It's because answers must be tailored for each individual based on his/her background, talents/abilities, etc. It's impossible to answer with much detail to a single individual on a forum. That's exactly why I created a network that includes thousands of like-minded physicians who are willing to share ideas, provide advice, and offer suggestions.
 
I have found that medicare or other insurance companies pay more for xrays, PFTs, ekg's, emg's, etc than the doctor gets paid. any MD that can learn these can start their own company and offer services to various doctors and get paid by medicare or other insurance companies.
 
docu said:
I have found that medicare or other insurance companies pay more for xrays, PFTs, ekg's, emg's, etc than the doctor gets paid. any MD that can learn these can start their own company and offer services to various doctors and get paid by medicare or other insurance companies.
Click to expand...

Life must be nice when you can ignore things like overhead, liability and the like.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
docu said:
I have found that medicare or other insurance companies pay more for xrays, PFTs, ekg's, emg's, etc than the doctor gets paid. any MD that can learn these can start their own company and offer services to various doctors and get paid by medicare or other insurance companies.
Click to expand...

Before you tell your program director to kiss off, think this through. Many PCPs have xray, EKGs, etc. in their offices to increase revenue already. Those that don't either use the ED (which is it's own separate issue) or already have a network of companies that provide those services. Which companies are used are going to depend on the patient's insurance carrier, which means getting your company picked up by multiple large insurers. Which will mean competing on price and quality, things that have nothing to do with having an MD. An MD offers the ability to interpret the results of the test, but most of these tests already have a specialty who has claimed interpretation for its own.


Radiographs are read by radiologists with a long period of residency training. As far as PFT's, that market is basically cornered by pulmonologists/allergists who are fellowship trained physicians. EMGs are the province of neurology, and I doubt there are a lot of community physicians that want the results of an EMG without a neuro consult. I guess exceptions to this would include hand surgeons, but in general they set up their own one-stop shopping (diagnostics, surgery, rehab) to capture the improved revenue you've noticed.

There is money to be made offering all the tests you mentioned, but having an MD isn't going to be very helpful in breaking into those markets. And in most cases you'll be competing with hospitals that offer those services or you'll be in a very small market that currently refers out those tests to a larger community. I guess if you got savvy about where there was going to be a population boom and had the cash reserves to ride out the lean times it could work.
 
Law2Doc said:
Life must be nice when you can ignore things like overhead, liability and the like.
Click to expand...

In addition to what Arcan wrote above, to actually get reimbursed for a service is a paper intensive task, you have to be an accepted service provider for the reimbursing entity, and payment usually comes months after you do the service. So you basically have to be able to float for some time after the upfront cash expenditure. Not to mention that when consumers aren't paying the bill (because they have insurance), they would rather go someplace where they can get one-stop shopping, ie not only get an xray but also get it read by the same place. Makes it very hard for a non-board certified person to effectively provide this kind of service.
 
I'm in an occupational medicine residency right now and it is a great pathway into all of the options above if you wanted to get out of clinical mediciine, but still have a specialty. The residency is also probably one of the nicest/easiest someone could do.
 
Law2Doc said:
In addition to what Arcan wrote above, to actually get reimbursed for a service is a paper intensive task, you have to be an accepted service provider for the reimbursing entity, and payment usually comes months after you do the service. So you basically have to be able to float for some time after the upfront cash expenditure. Not to mention that when consumers aren't paying the bill (because they have insurance), they would rather go someplace where they can get one-stop shopping, ie not only get an xray but also get it read by the same place. Makes it very hard for a non-board certified person to effectively provide this kind of service.
Click to expand...

True the payment time is later, not upfront, unless your patients pay cash. It depends on which insurance you are getting reimbursed from. BCBS takes 2 weeks and is usually on time, medicare may take 3-4 weeks, i dont know about other insurances though.

If you could create one stop shopping, that would be great, get all the supplies like EKG, EMG, ECHO, Xray, PFT machine, ABIs. You would probably have the doctor to send it out to get read though. It is expensive, and therefore an investment.

I know a nonlicensed MD that has created a clinic with all these testing machines including his own lab, not to mention he has his own pharmacy and Physical therapy center, so it is a one stop shop, and he hires licensed MD's to work and order the tests. He orders EKG, CXR, and labs for every new patient, and for patients that need it, and for each year, so it adds up.

He told me he makes 20k per month when he has a steady doctor working there. That's pretty good for someone that never did residency.

I think he invested 200k to buy the entire office space, but in the end you make all the money back. One problem he has is paying his staff though, because the reimbursements take such a long time to kick in.

I think to do something like this requires a lot of business sense and a lot of dedication and devotion to running the clinic.
 
Another option I have seen, that makes money and you don't even use your MD degree skills, but just run a business is to own a home care Physical therapy/RN service that sends PT and RN to patients houses. Each case opening earns $16,000 (?? not sure but this is what i have heard). A lot of them give me (a general physician) patients and in turn, if the patient needs PT or RN services, I send them a referral. That's how you can get business. I asked medicare if there is anything against that, or kickbacks involved, and they said no.
 
Last edited:
docu said:
True the payment time is later, not upfront, unless your patients pay cash. It depends on which insurance you are getting reimbursed from. BCBS takes 2 weeks and is usually on time, medicare may take 3-4 weeks, i dont know about other insurances though.

If you could create one stop shopping, that would be great, get all the supplies like EKG, EMG, ECHO, Xray, PFT machine, ABIs. You would probably have the doctor to send it out to get read though. It is expensive, and therefore an investment.

I know a nonlicensed MD that has created a clinic with all these testing machines including his own lab, not to mention he has his own pharmacy and Physical therapy center, so it is a one stop shop, and he hires licensed MD's to work and order the tests. He orders EKG, CXR, and labs for every new patient, and for patients that need it, and for each year, so it adds up.

He told me he makes 20k per month when he has a steady doctor working there. That's pretty good for someone that never did residency.

I think he invested 200k to buy the entire office space, but in the end you make all the money back. One problem he has is paying his staff though, because the reimbursements take such a long time to kick in.

I think to do something like this requires a lot of business sense and a lot of dedication and devotion to running the clinic.
Click to expand...

And could be done by someone without an MD.
 
Medical writing is another option, for a publications company or a MedEd/consulting agency. Very good money there too for full-time salary. The more experience you get, the more you can freelance on the side for extra $$ and then work your way up to executive/director positions. I freelanced a bit for about a year and made enough to cover all my car payments. Not stellar, but it was nice to put in about 10 hrs/week at 25$ an hour for easy work.
 
docu said:
I know a nonlicensed MD that has created a clinic with all these testing machines including his own lab, not to mention he has his own pharmacy and Physical therapy center, so it is a one stop shop, and he hires licensed MD's to work and order the tests. He orders EKG, CXR, and labs for every new patient, and for patients that need it, and for each year, so it adds up.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, that's not shady at all. I think I'd rather be a weed doctor.
 
Arcan57 said:
EMGs are the province of neurology, and I doubt there are a lot of community physicians that want the results of an EMG without a neuro consult.
Click to expand...

Correction. Emg's are the province of neurologists and physiatrists. As a matter of fact, AANEM is made up of physicians in both specialties.
 
latinman said:
Correction. Emg's are the province of neurologists and physiatrists. As a matter of fact, AANEM is made up of physicians in both specialties.
Click to expand...

I stand corrected. I know almost nothing about physiatry since my specialty has no contact with theirs.
 
the catch is, you have to have the reports/scans read by specialists....that involves paying them for it somehow, but i don't know if you have to pay them out of pocket or insurance pays them.
 
docu said:
the catch is, you have to have the reports/scans read by specialists....that involves paying them for it somehow, but i don't know if you have to pay them out of pocket or insurance pays them.
Click to expand...

depends on the test. For some tests, though, it can be done either way. For example, a diagnostic sleep study can be billed globally (95810), or the technical part (95810-TC) can be separated from the physician interpretation (95810-26)
 
MedicineMan99 said:
But how about a non-clinical job for a board certified Family Physician?
Click to expand...

Pharmaceutical companies might take them.

You could just be an entrepreneur in a nonclinical field and start your own business. (may not be a good idea in this economy though).

or freelance. this site is good: http://jobs.freelancemd.com/

google non clinical job and you'll find more ideas galore.
 
jules777 said:
Hi,

Just wondering if there are any jobs out there that would take a new graduate from med school. Are consulting jobs and administrative jobs available to MDs without residency training? I'm considering not doing a residency and getting a "normal" job.

Thanks for the help.
Click to expand...

It may sound a bit crazy but I took three years off to pursue a music career that took off while in medical school (voted top 10 DJ/Producer in the USA with a top ten iTunes release) and allowed me to circle the globe many times over, with near celebrity status. I don't regret it at all (was great being selfish for a while), but I'm currently going through the match process now (felt silly not finishing) and I'm definitely not as competitive as someone right out of school so I'll probably have to take what I can get and work my way up again (fellowship), or post match (formerly known as scramble).

Most people are right, you should at least do an intern year. You can then work as a non board certified GP in urgent-care-type clinics at the minimum. It also opens you up to many other jobs that prefer you have at least 1 year of residency.

You could always take a year off, recharge yourself, and spend some time studying for your USMLE 3 or COMLEX 3. If your state doesn't allow you to take the exam before entering your intern year, find a state, like Florida, that does and register with the FMSB in that state. You can take the exam anywhere, no matter what state sponsors you. That's what I'm doing. If you do well, it can be favorable on your application when reentering medicine.

Have you ever checked out the Drop Out Club? Ironically acronymized as D.O.C? They have some interesting positions open up, a significant portion of which are in the financial sector, often over 100K salaries. They also allow you to take a series 7 exam if financial.

Clinical Research Coordinator/Assistant, Pharm Rep, come to mind as well, albiet I'm not a fan of drug reps after witnessing the profound impact they had on physicians. I can understand why they were regulated so much. Healthcare is so corrupt like everything else, it's depressing. You just have to find the light at the end of the tunnel.

I would just ignore all the sarcastic "you should work at McDonalds" BS responses. I hope they treat their patients better than they treated you on this thread! :| I'm not perfect but there are so many dingus doctors out there that let that degree go to their head.

In terms of that absurd debt - you can always finance it based on income, pay the minimum payment for 25 years until they forgive it. If you do the math, often it may work out in your favor. Not very uplifting however. Student loan debt has surpassed credit card debt and there is talk of it being a factor in the next recession/depression that seems inevitable regardless of left or right.

Good luck!

-T
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
You would need to get a full license to even be able to find a moonlighting GP/Urgent care position. Most medical boards will be hesitant to give out a full license to someone who only has a year of internship. Would need a really good reason because in my experience, medical boards filled with self righteous people "who have a duty to protect the public" from bad doctors or unqualified doctors. A lot of them are terrible people who are miserable in life and want nothing more than to say "aha, i gotcha."

Without reading all the prior posts, I would say get back in training ASAP. The longer you wait, the harder it is to get in. And in this day and age there are many competitive FMG's who are competing for the same spots and will take any position.
 
Jules, sorry just read your post. as fullnelson mentioned, the drop out club has a lot of positions available for those who don't want to practice medicine. from the emails i have received, there are a bunch of research/pharm positions as well as some investment banking/finance stuff..

Or you could look into consulting for McKinsey/Bane/Boston/any of those firms. They hire candidates with advanced degrees such as MD/JD etc..
 
It's demonstrably false that "most" medical boards wouldn't give out a full license to an internship-only trained physician. By my count 32 allopathic or joint medical boards plus the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico grant full licensure after one year of of GME training.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
colbgw02 said:
It's demonstrably false that "most" medical boards wouldn't give out a full license to an internship-only trained physician. By my count 32 allopathic or joint medical boards plus the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico grant full licensure after one year of of GME training.
Click to expand...
To US grads that is. Only WI and (in certain cases) GA give licenses to foreign grads after just an intern year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
my fathers PCP (TX) who has had her own office for over 30 years now, just completed an intern year. Im not sure if things were different back then and she was grandfathered in
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
colbgw02 said:
It's demonstrably false that "most" medical boards wouldn't give out a full license to an internship-only trained physician. By my count 32 allopathic or joint medical boards plus the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico grant full licensure after one year of of GME training.
Click to expand...

They can grant it but it wont be easy. I know a guy who was held back from IM residency (did 2 years then let go), they gave him a hard time about a full license but he ended up getting one, abeit with restrictions. What i meant is that if you aren't in a training program and just have a internship completion to your name that is a red flag...This is different than someone who has completed an internship and is in middle of residency who applies for a full license to moonlight..
 
jon0013 said:
They can grant it but it wont be easy. I know a guy who was held back from IM residency (did 2 years then let go), they gave him a hard time about a full license but he ended up getting one, abeit with restrictions. What i meant is that if you aren't in a training program and just have a internship completion to your name that is a red flag...This is different than someone who has completed an internship and is in middle of residency who applies for a full license to moonlight..
Click to expand...

Yes, well, in this instance the compelling factor is the nature of the dismissal, not the amount of training completed. If he had left of his own accord or in good standing then it would have been smooth sailing, minus the usual administrative hassles. Similarly, a board-certified physician can have difficulty obtaining a license if he were to be dismissed from, let's say, a fellowship program.
 
colbgw02 said:
Yes, well, in this instance the compelling factor is the nature of the dismissal, not the amount of training completed. If he had left of his own accord or in good standing then it would have been smooth sailing, minus the usual administrative hassles. Similarly, a board-certified physician can have difficulty obtaining a license if he were to be dismissed from, let's say, a fellowship program.
Click to expand...

Agree exactly. The medical board will investigate heavily and do its due diligence. Unfortunately they are used to physicians just going through training with no disruptions. Even if there is a career change such as surgery to anesthesia, they are suspicious. My best advice would be to make sure program sends out great letters and documents in a timely fashion and make sure everyone on same page
 
My view is that the more time one spends doing something he or she isn't fully committed to/passionate about, the worse off he or she is.

This is a very old thread, but the topic is perennial.

There is nothing more important than time. The resource is extremely limited.

In contrast to the above advice, for any future reader of this thread considering not going to residency, stop worrying about everything external (e.g., "do I need to do an intern year or full program first?") and run with your gut. That's hugely important. If you are ambivalent and not sure what you'll do if you don't go to residency, then double-consider pragmatism/feasibility, but if you do know what you want, then pursue that. (And for comparison, think about different people who have dropped out/not even finished programs to pursue their goals/passions)

I'm taking at least a year off after medical school to pursue "endeavours," and I might not return to practice medicine or even do an intern year. That's essentially against the advice of everyone I know. But yet again I'm aware that's just because they see it as against the norm/high risk and can't conceptualize what it means to have a deep passion for something. I truly believe however that if you have lucidity about what you want/need to do, it doesn't seem like risk at all.

The same way a painting is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, the true risk associated with any given situation is only as great as one perceives it to be.

One person might view the possibility of losing X-number of dollars as a big deal, whereas another might view the time lost not pursuing an endeavour as immeasurably more substantial.

What I've come to realize is that once you've found what you're passionate about, nothing becomes more important than pursuing that. Money is the least important thing on the priority list. If your reason for not going to residency is potentially lucrative, that's great. But if it's not, pursuing your goals is way more important than how quickly you pay off your loans. You'll find the vast majority of people in this world allow money to become a much more substantial restriction on life than it really is.

Before you know it we will all be old and life will be over. Not a single person out there should do anything apart from what makes him or her happy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
The additional problem is one like mine, where I did not match and am trying my best to do something medically relevant, but there's not much out there where I can earn a living doing so. Sure, research positions are an option, but there are only so many. Currently I'm working doing over the phone medical interviews, volunteering one morning a week at a free clinic, doing research at my school where I graduated, and will soon be adding Uber driver to that, but there's only so long that a person can be stretched that many ways without breaking. I also applied to a bunch of paid research and pharma jobs, but hope has been in little supply in my life.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

amyleo
Options after leaving residency?
Replies
10
Views
1K
amyleo
amyleo
H
Non-residency options?
Replies
2
Views
1K
EthylMethylMan
EthylMethylMan
slyfox
Options Following PGY-2 Residency Exit
Replies
21
Views
2K
cirruslife82
C
H
  • Locked
Securing spot without covid vaccination
Replies
17
Views
2K
GoSpursGo
GoSpursGo
PSL108
  • Question
USCE options for post MD Non-US IMG
Replies
0
Views
760
PSL108
PSL108
Top