Is this a good contract? 277k outpatient

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sangria1986

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offered contract to see 20 pt a day 5 days/wk 277k. Call is between me and 1 other guy- so every other week but told they only get few calls if that a week.

Its within 30 min (14 miles) of a big city

6 wks vacation

additional 10% group bonus if practice does well

not private practice but with hospital.

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Not enough information known. What is a big city? East coast big city (Boston, NYC, philly) or big city in Oklahoma? 50% call is brutal. You would know average salary in area for similar job better than some random message board where you don't give a specific city.
 
Not enough information known. What is a big city? East coast big city (Boston, NYC, philly) or big city in Oklahoma? 50% call is brutal. You would know average salary in area for similar job better than some random message board where you don't give a specific city.

I've been told that call is only 2-3 patients a week if that. At least from the one other doc.

Its big city with downtown 1 mil and metro 2 mil. so definitely not boston nyc size but bigger than whatever is in oklahoma I guess- but Midwest
 
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What does call entail?

Just answering patients who call your office or do you have to admit your patients to the hospital?
 
The OP is clearly in Indianapolis. Outed.

[drops mic]
 
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offered contract to see 20 pt a day 5 days/wk 277k. Call is between me and 1 other guy- so every other week but told they only get few calls if that a week. if I go it alone w call Ill make 10% extra.

Its within 30 minutes (14 miles) of a big city

6 wks vacation

additional 10% group bonus if practice does well

not private practice but with hospital.
If this is for general internal medicine, then that's a reasonable job in terms of the money. If you're billing mostly level 4s with some level 3s, then 20 patients per day with 6 weeks of vacation nets you around 6000-6500 wRVUs. The national average for dollars per RVU is around 40-45 for IM, and you're getting around that. Considering that you're within 30 minutes of a big city, it's pretty generous.
 
If this is for general internal medicine, then that's a reasonable job in terms of the money. If you're billing mostly level 4s with some level 3s, then 20 patients per day with 6 weeks of vacation nets you around 6000-6500 wRVUs. The national average for dollars per RVU is around 40-45 for IM, and you're getting around that. Considering that you're within 30 minutes of a big city, it's pretty generous.

Ok. Its a bit farther out- within 30 miles (closer to 20 miles) not the 15 I thought it was. But still it looks like I can get to downtown in 30 minutes and maybe 45 in traffic.

I think its a decent as well. Thanks!
 
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If this is for general internal medicine, then that's a reasonable job in terms of the money. If you're billing mostly level 4s with some level 3s, then 20 patients per day with 6 weeks of vacation nets you around 6000-6500 wRVUs. The national average for dollars per RVU is around 40-45 for IM, and you're getting around that. Considering that you're within 30 minutes of a big city, it's pretty generous.
The nationwide averages for general internal medicine are 4669 wRVUs with an average base salary of $220k. If the OP truly is going to be producing >6000 wRVUs, he's probably underpaid a tiny bit, but not by much.
 
The nationwide averages for general internal medicine are 4669 wRVUs with an average base salary of $220k. If the OP truly is going to be producing >6000 wRVUs, he's probably underpaid a tiny bit, but not by much.

one needs to know the average rvu value per patient. I think income is highly dependent on this. What value is average in IM?

Currently the national average for 2017 is 250k income from what ive seen.
 
The nationwide averages for general internal medicine are 4669 wRVUs with an average base salary of $220k. If the OP truly is going to be producing >6000 wRVUs, he's probably underpaid a tiny bit, but not by much.
That nationwide average is probably weighted more towards more rural or smaller cities since that's where the majority of the jobs are. I was taking into account his proximity to a relatively large metro area. Also, with the 10% potential bonus, it can easily bump his take home up to 300k which is well within reasonable range for 6000-6500 RVU for a GIM.
 
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one needs to know the average rvu value per patient. I think income is highly dependent on this. What value is average in IM?

Currently the national average for 2017 is 250k income from what ive seen.
That's probably Merritt Hawkins or MGMA data, which I've always found to be on the high side. Average RVU for GIM is 40-50 depending on location. If you're truly within 30 minutes of a 2 mil metro area, then I would say 42-45 per RVU isn't unreasonable.
 
That's probably Merritt Hawkins or MGMA data, which I've always found to be on the high side. Average RVU for GIM is 40-50 depending on location. If you're truly within 30 minutes of a 2 mil metro area, then I would say 42-45 per RVU isn't unreasonable.

I totally get that but why do I then hear groups say they use mgma data to determine your income?
 
I totally get that but why do I then hear groups say they use mgma data to determine your income?
MGMA data is by far the best source of percentiles, so it's commonly used to figure out reasonable targets for productivity. For example, in general IM, MGMA has the 10th percentile internist working 2719 RVUs, the 25th percentile working 3688 RVUs, etc. So thats where groups get "if you break Xth percentile, you'll get a bonus".

It's also probably the best source for overall compensation in a non-academic setting, so groups look at it to make sure they aren't too far off. The full tables are super-comprehensive too, allowing you to filter geographically, etc.
 
MGMA data is by far the best source of percentiles, so it's commonly used to figure out reasonable targets for productivity. For example, in general IM, MGMA has the 10th percentile internist working 2719 RVUs, the 25th percentile working 3688 RVUs, etc. So thats where groups get "if you break Xth percentile, you'll get a bonus".

It's also probably the best source for overall compensation in a non-academic setting, so groups look at it to make sure they aren't too far off. The full tables are super-comprehensive too, allowing you to filter geographically, etc.

Would you say its worth a purchase?
 
That nationwide average is probably weighted more towards more rural or smaller cities since that's where the majority of the jobs are. I was taking into account his proximity to a relatively large metro area. Also, with the 10% potential bonus, it can easily bump his take home up to 300k which is well within reasonable range for 6000-6500 RVU for a GIM.
You can actually make 300K in outpatient medicine ?
 
Would you mind sharing how?

I am about to apply for IM and I am already thinking about loan payment on a 300k debt
It's about productivity. The question is how fast and efficient are you while still providing good care? If you aren't able to knock out 20 pts MINIMUM then you probably won't be able to make good money being a PCP. If you do the math on wRVU per patient, multiple it by 20 pts a day, 5 days a week, and 48 weeks a year, you'll see how you can make 300k being a PCP.

The problem I see a lot is that people want to spend an hour with each patient. To be honest, you don't need an hour for the vast majority of patients to provide good care. But, if you are one of those, then you probably won't be able to see more than 10-15 pts a day, and your income will suffer quite a bit as a result.
 
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Good to know

Same applies to outpatient specialties? Like Rheum or endo?
 
Good to know

Same applies to outpatient specialties? Like Rheum or endo?
I'm rheum, so yes. The same thing applies to all outpatient specialties.

The rheum market is wide open, so when you're job searching, be sure to find out exactly how much they pay per wRVU. Don't get sucked into the salaried positions that "expect" a certain level of productivity.
 
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It's about productivity. The question is how fast and efficient are you while still providing good care? If you aren't able to knock out 20 pts MINIMUM then you probably won't be able to make good money being a PCP. If you do the math on wRVU per patient, multiple it by 20 pts a day, 5 days a week, and 48 weeks a year, you'll see how you can make 300k being a PCP.

The problem I see a lot is that people want to spend an hour with each patient. To be honest, you don't need an hour for the vast majority of patients to provide good care. But, if you are one of those, then you probably won't be able to see more than 10-15 pts a day, and your income will suffer quite a bit as a result.
You ease my concerns a little. I was sick to my stomach this AM after logging into studentaid.ed.gov.
 
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You ease my concerns a little. I was sick to my stomach this AM after logging into studentaid.ed.gov.
My advice? Go rural, and find a gig that pays you for productivity. Get the highest pay per wRVU you can find, and make sure they have the volume to support your productivity. The ideal situation is that you can hit the ground running. Then put your head down and be ready to see 25+ patients a day. Live frugally, and you'll have your debt paid off in a few years.
 
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Great tips. When you say rurally how many miles away from a tier 2 city we are talking about?
Can you elaborate further on the rheum job pay models out there and the differences between them?
 
Great tips. When you say rurally how many miles away from a tier 2 city we are talking about?
Can you elaborate further on the rheum job pay models out there and the differences between them?
Depends how you define tier 2 cities. If you're thinking metro of 1-2 million, then I define rural as at least 1 hour away.

From what I've seen most jobs out there at least offer some form of "productivity" with the exception of academia. (stay away from academia if you want to make more than an NP) Employers will be divided into private practice (usually single specialty), hospital based, or multi specialty group. The latter two usually like to pay physicians based on the wRVU model which is uniform across the country. The way they decide the pay per wRVU is dependent on the internal financials of their organization, i.e. what their payor mixes are and overhead. With these organizations, I would always recommend finding out the specific details regarding what you are getting paid for your work. Many of them will offer a guaranteed salary up front and a "productivity bonus" on top of it. What you need to ask them is where does the productivity bonus kick in in terms of wRVUs and after that, what is the pay per wRVU. From that point, you need to do some math. If they're expecting you to produce 6000 wRVUs before you make the bonus, and they're giving you a base of $250k, then you're looking at $41/wRVU for the first 6000, which is far below market value for rheumatology (average of 50-60 for rural). This is an example obviously but the point here is the concept. Always seek the high pay for productivity, which will help you out in the long run. The guaranteed salary is usually the organization wanting to pander to your fears of making little money coming out of fellowship, but after that, they are usually profiting off you. That's why the ideal situation is a place that is in dire need of a rheumatologist (or PCP), and you can hit the ground running. Ask them to estimate how many pts will be on your schedule starting from day 1.

The single specialty groups are harder to find, but that's basically a business run by your partners and you. You deal with the overhead. You deal with payers. You deal with your accounts receivable. You deal with regulatory red tape. Not that this is all bad, since it's the true private practice dudes that are making BANK if they run a tight business with lots of ancillary services.
 
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Would you mind sharing how?

I am about to apply for IM and I am already thinking about loan payment on a 300k debt
Sure.

Current going rate for IM/FM is $40/wRVU median.

The average wRVU per patient encounter is 1.4 per CMS.

20 patients per day, 4.5 days/week, 46 weeks/year gives you 231k/year.

Bump that to 25 patients per day and you're up to 290k. Or 23 per day working 5 days per week gets you 296k.
 
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300K there you go. I am a little bit Suprised why not more people go into primary care and prefer doing inpatient medicine
 
Inpatient medicine is way more demanding and I am sure it's money making potential is higher than outpatient medicine but so is their burnout rate
 
300K there you go. I am a little bit Suprised why not more people go into primary care and prefer doing inpatient medicine
I guess what these attendings are describing are probably the best case scenario (75th+ percentile)... According to CiM, the average salary for IM and FM docs is ~250k and 230k respectively... Also, the social component of primary care might also be a deterrent to a lot med students.
 
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I worked in two different clinic settings one with a social worker and RNs who are on top of their game and I truly enjoyed working there which made me realize may be with the right clinic setting outpatient medicine is not bad at all. I feel resident clinics set most people on the wrong foot and send them out with the wrong impression about ambulatory medicine!
 
I guess what these attendings are describing are probably the best case scenario (75th+ percentile)... According to CiM, the average salary for IM and FM docs is ~250k and 230k respectively... Also, the social component of primary care might also be a deterrent to a lot med students.
True, but those numbers do include part time docs. I know of very few full-time doctors who are not solo practitioners who are not in the high 200s. That said, $290,000 sounds good until you remember that the median for Orthopedics is approximately $600,000.

Plus you nailed it with the social and chronic disease burden that Primary Care faces. It is absolutely not for the faint of heart.
 
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Meh, 8 hour day at 3 patients per hour is 24 patients per day. Lots of those will be sore throat, flu, rash, simple one-problem visits. It's not that bad.

yea thats true. lots of notes.
 
Sounds awful.
Depends on your patient panel. In rheumatology, I can see a stable level 4 rheumatoid arthritis patient with the note done in 5 minutes total. The hardest part is coming up with small talk.
 
Depends how you define tier 2 cities. If you're thinking metro of 1-2 million, then I define rural as at least 1 hour away.

From what I've seen most jobs out there at least offer some form of "productivity" with the exception of academia. (stay away from academia if you want to make more than an NP) Employers will be divided into private practice (usually single specialty), hospital based, or multi specialty group. The latter two usually like to pay physicians based on the wRVU model which is uniform across the country. The way they decide the pay per wRVU is dependent on the internal financials of their organization, i.e. what their payor mixes are and overhead. With these organizations, I would always recommend finding out the specific details regarding what you are getting paid for your work. Many of them will offer a guaranteed salary up front and a "productivity bonus" on top of it. What you need to ask them is where does the productivity bonus kick in in terms of wRVUs and after that, what is the pay per wRVU. From that point, you need to do some math. If they're expecting you to produce 6000 wRVUs before you make the bonus, and they're giving you a base of $250k, then you're looking at $41/wRVU for the first 6000, which is far below market value for rheumatology (average of 50-60 for rural). This is an example obviously but the point here is the concept. Always seek the high pay for productivity, which will help you out in the long run. The guaranteed salary is usually the organization wanting to pander to your fears of making little money coming out of fellowship, but after that, they are usually profiting off you. That's why the ideal situation is a place that is in dire need of a rheumatologist (or PCP), and you can hit the ground running. Ask them to estimate how many pts will be on your schedule starting from day 1.

The single specialty groups are harder to find, but that's basically a business run by your partners and you. You deal with the overhead. You deal with payers. You deal with your accounts receivable. You deal with regulatory red tape. Not that this is all bad, since it's the true private practice dudes that are making BANK if they run a tight business with lots of ancillary services.
Thanks.
 
offered contract to see 20 pt a day 5 days/wk 277k. Call is between me and 1 other guy- so every other week but told they only get few calls if that a week.

Its within 30 min (14 miles) of a big city

6 wks vacation

additional 10% group bonus if practice does well

not private practice but with hospital.

Is there any other compensation? Sign on bonus, etc?

I would probably ask for more money, but that is a general rule that they are not going to offer their max in the initial advertisement. They are smart though to use an odd number like "277,000" because it makes it seem more firm, like they have really run the numbers and that is the max they can afford to pay you.

At that rate, you are making $40/wRVU; I wouldn't take less than $45/wRVU as 50%ile seems like a fair middle ground. Actually, I would tell them you have run the numbers and tell them you need $46.27/wRVU (there is a great book on negotiating called Never Split the Difference which goes over all this). Let them do the math and figure out the yearly salary at that point if they want to
 
You can actually make 300K in outpatient medicine ?

I practice in a smaller town, so I can't speak to the economic situation of docs in big cities making ~180-200k/year; but if you are doing full time outpatient (5 days/week; 48 weeks per year) you should be clearing well over $300,000. The idea of PCPs making 150-160/yr is crazy to me. Almost every visit will be a level 4 (1.5 wRVU); there will be several level 5 (2.11 wRVU) visits per day if you are seeing around 20-21 patients per day. I rarely have a level 3 visit because all my patients have multiple problems which pretty well guarantees at least a 4 (1.5 wRVU). Proper coding is really the secret to being paid correctly for your cognitive labor (notice I didn't say improper or fraudulent coding).

I have about 30 patients at the nursing home in my town and do some inpatient work ~7 days per month to keep up my skills. I rarely work weekends; I made just over 400k last year
 
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Wow! What's the average work hours per week?

8-4 with an hour lunch break to catch up on calls, notes, results. 3 follow up patients/hour (21 patients per day). Usually leave around office around 5
 
8-4 with an hour lunch break to catch up on calls, notes, results. 3 follow up patients/hour (21 patients per day). Usually leave around office around 5
But seeing patients in nursing home and ~7 shifts/month as a hospitalist add to that? So it's fair to say you work 55+ hrs/wk on average...
 
But seeing patients in nursing home and ~7 shifts/month as a hospitalist add to that? So it's fair to say you work 55+ hrs/wk on average...

i would say 50-60 average

45-50 in clinic weeks

Hospital stretches can be light; but I've had one or two episodes of 90 hours over 7 days over the past few years time. I usually do 3 - 4 day stretches at this point to keep from working weekends
 
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