Is specializing worth an opportunity cost of almost $1 million?

[CaliDDS1986]

To piggyback off of a recent dentaltown thread, specializing nowadays can cost almost 1 million in lost earnings due to tuition and lost GP income for a 3 year residency. Is it worth it still?

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[Cello]

Which specialty?

 

[bigstix808]

if you want to specialize... just do it. i could tell you that you wasted your 300k education by going into dentistry in stead of just starting a blog with creative marketing.

and the unicorns of dentistry are the only ones making a mil in 3 yrs right out of school. just calibrate you a little bit.

 

[Soleus715]

To piggyback off of a recent dentaltown thread, specializing nowadays can cost almost 1 million in lost earnings due to tuition and lost GP income for a 3 year residency. Is it worth it still?

Worth it in terms of money or satisfaction in your career?

Answer to your question depends on what your definition of worth is in a career.

If I wanted to make tons of money and drive sports cars and not have $400k in loans I would have chosen something else.

 

[dentistreason]

Worth it in terms of money or satisfaction in your career?

Answer to your question depends on what your definition of worth is in a career.

If I wanted to make tons of money and drive sports cars and not have $400k in loans I would have chosen something else.

I never really understood this reasoning. The health professions such as medicine and dentistry are some of the highest paying jobs people can get without major business connections. Engineers (which is not easy either) make less than docs and dentists. They don't have the student loans, but unless you're doing chemical or petroleum your pay will be much lower (and the ceiling on average is much lower than docs and dentists). Business is more dependent on politics in the workplace, and high paying IB has just as bad a lifestyle as some of the worst medical specialties (lifestyle wise). Law is saturated and pays less as well. People always throw out the saying "if I wanted to make more I would do something else" but I feel that there's not actually many more jobs that do better than the health professional ones. The only caveat is the debt and the years of schooling. I definitely agree 400k is not a debt I would take on to go to dental school from a financial POV.

 

[jeffk805dent]

I never really understood this reasoning. The health professions such as medicine and dentistry are some of the highest paying jobs people can get without major business connections. Engineers (which is not easy either) make less than docs and dentists. They don't have the student loans, but unless you're doing chemical or petroleum your pay will be much lower (and the ceiling on average is much lower than docs and dentists). Business is more dependent on politics in the workplace, and high paying IB has just as bad a lifestyle as some of the worst medical specialties (lifestyle wise). Law is saturated and pays less as well. People always throw out the saying "if I wanted to make more I would do something else" but I feel that there's not actually many more jobs that do better than the health professional ones. The only caveat is the debt and the years of schooling. I definitely agree 400k is not a debt I would take on to go to dental school from a financial POV.

while I agree that healthcare professions are in general in much better job demand compared to other white collar professions, there are office politics too in the hospital, pharmacy, and/or the dental office. If you disagree you might want to check out the Allopathic and Pharmacy forums where there are often times grumblings about co-workers. Healthcare is not immune to a toxic work environment.

 

[dentistreason]

while I agree that healthcare professions are in general in much better job demand compared to other white collar professions, there are office politics too in the hospital, pharmacy, and/or the dental office. If you disagree you might want to check out the Allopathic and Pharmacy forums where there are often times grumblings about co-workers. Healthcare is not immune to toxic work environment.

I agree for sure. But I think you are limited slightly less than having a boss that refuses to acknowledge you or wants to keep you down. I think "climbing" in a hospital is a lot less prevalent than in the business world (a huge reason I chose health profession over business- seems like a drag). Also I think job security is pretty good in the health professions

 

[jeffk805dent]

I agree for sure. But I think you are limited slightly less than having a boss that refuses to acknowledge you or wants to keep you down. I think "climbing" in a hospital is a lot less prevalent than in the business world (a huge reason I chose health profession over business- seems like a drag). Also I think job security is pretty good in the health professions

Depends where. If we're talking about a big/medium sized city, health care professionals underestimate how many people are eagerly waiting for a job to open up. For example in the Emergency Medicine forum (one of the hottest specialties right now), someone asked about looking for a job in Denver. The response was, good luck. On the pharmacist forum, some posters complain about quitting their job but then realize there are a ton of pharmacists looking for jobs as well.

The rebuttal becomes "well people should move to rural areas." Well if that job in the rural area has been looking for candidates for a while and couldn't get anyone to fill that spot, there is probably a good reason.

 

[dentistreason]

Depends where. If we're talking about a big/medium sized city, health care professionals underestimate how many people are eagerly waiting for a job to open up. For example in the Emergency Medicine forum (one of the hottest specialties right now), someone asked about looking for a job in Denver. The response was, good luck. On the pharmacist forum, some posters complain about quitting their job but then realize there are a ton of pharmacists looking for jobs as well.

The rebuttal becomes "well people should move to rural areas." Well if that job in the rural area has been looking for candidates for a while and couldn't get anyone to fill that spot, there is probably a good reason.

I understand. There is definitely some saturation going on.

 

[Soleus715]

I never really understood this reasoning. The health professions such as medicine and dentistry are some of the highest paying jobs people can get without major business connections. Engineers (which is not easy either) make less than docs and dentists. They don't have the student loans, but unless you're doing chemical or petroleum your pay will be much lower (and the ceiling on average is much lower than docs and dentists). Business is more dependent on politics in the workplace, and high paying IB has just as bad a lifestyle as some of the worst medical specialties (lifestyle wise). Law is saturated and pays less as well. People always throw out the saying "if I wanted to make more I would do something else" but I feel that there's not actually many more jobs that do better than the health professional ones. The only caveat is the debt and the years of schooling. I definitely agree 400k is not a debt I would take on to go to dental school from a financial POV.

If we're talking about the past I would completely agree with you, however, most schools nowadays are averaging more than $400k with some schools breaking $500k.

The problem is that the 400k loan is before the compounding interest throughout 4 years of school. On top of that most schools have a 3%+ tuition increase each year.
And... on top of that there is an origination fee for both unsub and grad plus loans. After graduation, paying student loans and getting taxed heavily decreases the high income.
Also, many pre-dents are disillusioned with making $120k+ first years out of school which is definitely not the norm.

I don't really mind it at all though, which is the reason why I'm in dental school now. I personally think that it's still plenty of money for me to live off of.
Dentistry is a profession that lives and thrives in debt. This is especially true if the dentist wants to stay up to date with technology, CE, and stays ethical.

But I would have chosen this profession regardless of the income, as long as I can put bread on the table for my family.
Job security, satisfaction, flexibility (family time), being your own boss, and everything about being a doctor trumps all other careers for me.

 

[fa_tth]

Also, many pre-dents are disillusioned with making $120k+ first years out of school which is definitely not the norm.

Isn't the norm around 110-120 mark? Most posts I see around here (and even the much more jaded DentalTown) suggest that its not unusual to make that much. Unless by 120k+ in the first year you meant netting 120k in which is a different thing altogether.

 

[jeffk805dent]

Isn't the norm around 110-120 mark? Most posts I see around here (and even the much more jaded DentalTown) suggest that its not unusual to make that much. Unless by 120k+ in the first year you meant netting 120k in which is a different thing altogether.

90-120k. I've seen offers of 150k in rural Arizona, Nevada, and New Mexico.

 

[periopocket]

Any specialists willing to chime in as to whether it is worth it?

 

[Cold Front]

As a GP, who graduated 6 years ago and has been very fortunate to stay ahead of the curve financially. I would say No.

The job market have changed the past decade or 2. If I was given the opportunity to spend $1M on a dental school and a specialty, I would rather use that money towards other avenues.

Someone on Dental Town said... I paraphrase here, "you could open 5-10 franchise stores, not the top earners like McDonalds, but stores like Subways, Jimmy John's, etc, and you could easily make a top specialist income, maybe more".

In fact, one of my tenants, he owns 14 locations of 2-3 different fast food franchises within the city. The guy is in his late 30's. He has 0 education debt, and diversified his risk with multiple businesses. Yes, not all of his stores perform great, but on average, he makes bank! He owns/ed couple of exotic cars, and lives a better financial dream most of us went to dental school for, but without the education debt.

My point, if you are all about the money, look beyond dentistry from the $1M debt risk stand point, unless you stand to make $500k a year overage throughout your career - which is relatively a long shot for most specialists.

 

[dentalcpa90]

I never really understood this reasoning. The health professions such as medicine and dentistry are some of the highest paying jobs people can get without major business connections. Engineers (which is not easy either) make less than docs and dentists. They don't have the student loans, but unless you're doing chemical or petroleum your pay will be much lower (and the ceiling on average is much lower than docs and dentists). Business is more dependent on politics in the workplace, and high paying IB has just as bad a lifestyle as some of the worst medical specialties (lifestyle wise). Law is saturated and pays less as well. People always throw out the saying "if I wanted to make more I would do something else" but I feel that there's not actually many more jobs that do better than the health professional ones. The only caveat is the debt and the years of schooling. I definitely agree 400k is not a debt I would take on to go to dental school from a financial POV.

Computer science, accounting, and nursing are not bad. 4 years of school. No debt. Can work in any city. Good work life/balance. Not as physically demanding as dentistry. If you start investing early, I am pretty sure you can come financially close to a dentist. Also if you got skills, drive, and network you could possibly have a salary that is equal to or greater than what a dentist makes without any extra schooling or debt.

Some people are naturally good at sales and marketing too. You can make bank in both fields if you are good at it.

Some people are exceptional at other trade skills too. There are a lot of other service related businesses that you start that require less time in school, cost less to start up, and has a lower operating overhead than dentistry. In dentistry you also have to deal with insurance, which can cap your earning potential by a lot. In other industries, it is usually just cash. You don't have to deal with the paperwork requirements that insurance companies require too. You just do what you're good at, send an invoice, and get paid. No extra BS with the detailed charts. Another thing about dentistry is that a lot of people hate going to the dentist and paying for dentistry. It is different for other services. I am pretty satisfied with my experience with my barber every two weeks, not sure if I feel the same way when I see my dentist every 6 months.

There are a lot of other fields that are not health related that pay a lot. You just have to be open minded.

 

[jeffk805dent]

Computer science, accounting, and nursing are not bad. 4 years of school. No debt. Can work in any city. Good work life/balance. Not as physically demanding as dentistry. If you start investing early, I am pretty sure you can come financially close to a dentist. Also if you got skills, drive, and network you could possibly have a salary that is equal to or greater than what a dentist makes without any extra schooling or debt.

Some people are naturally good at selling and marketing too. You can make bank in both fields if you are good at it.

Some people are exceptional at other trade skills too. There are a lot of other service related businesses that you start that require less time in school, cost less to start up, and has a lower operating overhead than dentistry. In dentistry you also have to deal with insurance, which can cap your earning potential by a lot. In other industries, it is usually just cash. You don't have to deal with the paperwork requirements that insurance companies require too. You just do what you're good at, send an invoice, and get paid. No extra BS with the detailed charts. Another thing about dentistry is that a lot of people hate going to the dentist and paying for dentistry. It is different for other services. I am pretty satisfied with my experience with my barber every two weeks, not sure if I feel the same way when I see my dentist every 6 months.

There are a lot of other fields that are not health related that pay a lot. You just have to be open minded.

I'm not sure if it was you I talked to about accounting/audit a couple of months ago but I recall the job market for accountants being pretty good. I was going to say actuary as well but the exams weed out a lot of people that could have been making 200k at 30.

I heard accounting is good if you go into Big 4 and a CPA license though. I've heard horror stories about Big 4 but then again I've heard horror stories in almost every topic imaginable.

Agree on the trade skills as well. Cool thing is there are so many trades to choose from. Its not always the backbreaking work some people make it out to be.

 

[jeffk805dent]

Accounting is seriously rewarding, especially if you're a good salesmen. My brother-in-law's a parter at KPMG and I wonder if I'll ever catch up to his earnings :\.

the chances of being a partner are less than 2% (outside source, no hard data to back this up). Even factoring in the entry barriers to dentistry, dentistry doesn't come close to making partner at a Big 4. I heard senior manager is not a bad gig if a person reaches that far in Big 4. Like 220k in the Bay Area. Even with the insane COL thats a ton of money

 

[dentalcpa90]

I'm not sure if it was you I talked to about accounting/audit a couple of months ago but I recall the job market for accountants being pretty good. I was going to say actuary as well but the exams weed out a lot of people that could have been making 200k at 30.

I heard accounting is good if you go into Big 4 and a CPA license though. I've heard horror stories about Big 4 but then again I've heard horror stories in almost every topic imaginable.

Agree on the trade skills as well. Cool thing is there are so many trades to choose from. Its not always the backbreaking work some people make it out to be.

Actuary is good, but it is regional. If you are okay with working in the midwest or northeast, then it is fine, but the west coast, however, is bad for actuaries from what I heard. Also, actuary is too specialized. You can only work for the insurance industry or consulting firms. With accounting, your career can be much more diverse. You can work for any industry you like because all businesses need accountants. Also, just because you studied accounting, doesn't mean you will be doing something accounting related for the rest of your life. Accounting is a great way to transition into finance, consulting, managerial positions, c-suite exec positions, and good experience for getting in a good MBA program.

Yeah there are a lot of horror stories about the big 4, but most people leave after 2 years. They usually transition into a private company where they make close to 6 figs and work only 40 hours a week.

the chances of being a partner are less than 2% (outside source, no hard data to back this up). Even factoring in the entry barriers to dentistry, dentistry doesn't come close to making partner at a Big 4. I heard senior manager is not a bad gig if a person reaches that far in Big 4. Like 220k in the Bay Area. Even with the insane COL thats a ton of money

Yeah, it is hard. Personally, I don't think it is worth it to stay that long. The work hours and travel can be hard. If you are okay with living that lifestyle for long, then you might as well have went into ibanking instead, because you can make a lot more money over there. I think leaving as a senior associate or manager is the best. Transition into private, make decent money, while having a good work/life balance.


Enough about accounting though. I still think computer science is a better gig. 4 years of school instead of 5. No CPA exam. Don't have to work long hours. More diverse than accounting. And has the highest growth potential compared to all other fields.

 

[Cello]

As a GP, who graduated 6 years ago and has been very fortunate to stay ahead of the curve financially. I would say No.

The job market have changed the past decade or 2. If I was given the opportunity to spend $1M on a dental school and a specialty, I would rather use that money towards other avenues.

Someone on Dental Town said... I paraphrase here, "you could open 5-10 franchise stores, not the top earners like McDonalds, but stores like Subways, Jimmy John's, etc, and you could easily make a top specialist income, maybe more".

In fact, one of my tenants, he owns 14 locations of 2-3 different fast food franchises within the city. The guy is in his late 30's. He has 0 education debt, and diversified his risk with multiple businesses. Yes, not all of his stores perform great, but on average, he makes bank! He owns/ed couple of exotic cars, and lives a better financial dream most of us went to dental school for, but without the education debt.

My point, if you are all about the money, look beyond dentistry from the $1M debt risk stand point, unless you stand to make $500k a year overage throughout your career - which is relatively a long shot for most specialists.

For every person as successful as your friend there are droves who were not. He outcompeted a lot of people and many went bankrupt hoping to finance their own business endeavors. We talk a lot about dental unicorns on these forums while acknowledging just how rare they are, but it is important to remember that unicorns are rare in every industry. If they weren't then everyone would just go do the thing that is guaranteed go make them filthy rich with minimal effort and investment. Also, people who start companies and are as driven as your friend seems to be have often invested significant time and energy to accomplish what may seem relatively easy from the outside.

Dentists with an entrepreneurial spirit have some distinct advantages. They can diversify and branch out with significantly less risk than someone who lacks an education. If that person's businesses go south then they have nothing to fall back on. A dentist can still earn a good salary from their profession in the event their other ventures don't work out.

 

[Pedodel]

Opening any business is a huge risk. Most small business's fail. I read once that 80 percent of new resturants that open fail within 3 years.

Dental practices that open very very rarely fail.
If your going open a business, or go into a profession, dentistry is a pretty good one.

The post about unicorns in every career, is dead on. In dentistry most do well , earn a good income and have good lifestyle with normaland controllable hours.
Most of your success and income will depend on your business and people skills.

Is specializing worth it? Look up The ADA's data on average income in specialties ( the numbers are way low in my opinion btw ). and multiply those income diferrences by 30-35 years. Mostly though, you have to follow your head and your heart.

 

[FrogH20]

As a GP, who graduated 6 years ago and has been very fortunate to stay ahead of the curve financially. I would say No.

The job market have changed the past decade or 2. If I was given the opportunity to spend $1M on a dental school and a specialty, I would rather use that money towards other avenues.

Someone on Dental Town said... I paraphrase here, "you could open 5-10 franchise stores, not the top earners like McDonalds, but stores like Subways, Jimmy John's, etc, and you could easily make a top specialist income, maybe more".

In fact, one of my tenants, he owns 14 locations of 2-3 different fast food franchises within the city. The guy is in his late 30's. He has 0 education debt, and diversified his risk with multiple businesses. Yes, not all of his stores perform great, but on average, he makes bank! He owns/ed couple of exotic cars, and lives a better financial dream most of us went to dental school for, but without the education debt.

My point, if you are all about the money, look beyond dentistry from the $1M debt risk stand point, unless you stand to make $500k a year overage throughout your career - which is relatively a long shot for most specialists.

The 1 million dollars (I'm assuming this is principal, interest, and opportunity cost?) is purely academic for most people because outside of student loans they would never have access to that level of debt or the subsequent wages. I think that for many education is a ladder allowing them opportunities only at the completion of their degree.

 

[comatose]

Pedodel are you an actual practicing dentist. It amazes me how pre dental students are giving advice to other predents about the dental profession. Lots of dental practices fail, especially start ups. There are tons of new grads being added to the work force every year with more to come. Competition is real and it's considerably more difficult to open a new dental office than in years past. People in general are finding less value in going to the dentist than ever before. There have been studies on this. So with fewer dental visits and more dentists, the market is becoming less favorable. I would say if you are specializing specifically for income only, which I wouldn't recommend, then OS is the only specialty That has a solid ROI.

 

[Cold Front]

The 1 million dollars (I'm assuming this is principal, interest, and opportunity cost?) is purely academic for most people because outside of student loans they would never have access to that level of debt or the subsequent wages. I think that for many education is a ladder allowing them opportunities only at the completion of their degree.

Yes. The first dentist to graduate with about $1M in total education debt (undergrad, dental, residency, plus interest, etc) probably crossed that line a year or 2 ago. He/she probably reads these forums without posting, and will one day come forward.

 

[htdt]

Undergrad: 233k.
Dental: 446k
OMS residency (2 med school years): 104k.
By the time I'll be done with residency I'll easily have over 1M in loans. I'd say between 1.1 and 1.2. Not yet though!! I'll come back if no one beats me to it and this thread is still alive.

Can I ask a question: do we have to pay for the 2 years of med school if we do an OMFS programs that grant a MD/DDS degree?

 

[786783]

Can I ask a question: do we have to pay for the 2 years of med school if we do an OMFS programs that grant a MD/DDS degree?

Of course we do, it's a degree just like any other degree. Most opt to do 4 year programs because of the that specific cost and the opportunity cost i think.

 

[JDAM1607]

Undergrad: 233k.
Dental: 446k
OMS residency (2 med school years): 104k.
By the time I'll be done with residency I'll easily have over 1M in loans. I'd say between 1.1 and 1.2. Not yet though!! I'll come back if no one beats me to it and this thread is still alive.

Where did you go to school for your undergrad?! That's expensive


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[786783]

Where did you go to school for your undergrad?! That's expensive


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I want to remain anonymous so I won't disclose, but that's the going rate for a lot of private undergrad universities if you include living expenses as well.

 

[Cold Front]

I want to remain anonymous so I won't disclose, but that's the going rate for a lot of private undergrad universities if you include living expenses as well.

If you're attending one of the following undergrad schools (or similar high tuition schools), and want to become an orthodontist/endodontist/periodontist/6yr path oral surgeon, you are on track to be in $1M debt before interest (4-7% annually).

Most Expensive Schools

School name (state) 2016-2017 tuition and fees U.S. News rank and category
Columbia University (NY) $55,056 5 (tie), National Universities
Vassar College (NY) $53,090 12 (tie), National Liberal Arts Colleges
Harvey Mudd College (CA) $52,916 21 (tie), National Liberal Arts Colleges
Trinity College (CT) $52,760 38 (tie), National Liberal Arts Colleges
Sarah Lawrence College (NY) $52,550 59, National Liberal Arts Colleges
University of Chicago $52,491 3 (tie), National Universities
Amherst College (MA) $52,476 2, National Liberal Arts Colleges
Tufts University (MA) $52,430 27 (tie), National Universities
Franklin and Marshall College (PA) $52,290 47 (tie), National Liberal Arts Colleges
University of Southern California $52,217 23, National Universities

 

[Pedodel]

Pedodel are you an actual practicing dentist. It amazes me how pre dental students are giving advice to other predents about the dental profession. Lots of dental practices fail, especially start ups. There are tons of new grads being added to the work force every year with more to come. Competition is real and it's considerably more difficult to open a new dental office than in years past. People in general are finding less value in going to the dentist than ever before. There have been studies on this. So with fewer dental visits and more dentists, the market is becoming less favorable. I would say if you are specializing specifically for income only, which I wouldn't recommend, then OS is the only specialty That has a solid ROI.

 

[Pedodel]

Yeah,, been in practice for 13 years. I am a pedo specialist and I am incredibly busy and really would love to have another pedo specialist associate to work with. I am at capacity +. It is not easy to get a pedo specialist in my area ( northeast semi suburb/ rural of all area's ). I have never heard of a dental practice that has failed. I am sure it h appens, but , ai have never heard or seen of it. It happens all the time in other areas of business.

It all depends on your area. All other companies and business's do incredible research on where and when to open retail locations. In dentistry, as well , you have to be smart and informed on where you open a practice. There are many area's of the country that are prime for opening a practice or going into practice. . There are many area's where specialists are needed and many area's where GP's are needed. It depends are where you go . Do you have to live in or near a big city or live near a beach , or where it is 75 degrees all year around. If you do, it will be more difficult to be sucessful and wealthy.
If you like the outdoors ,,,, and don't mind being 1 hour from a major airport,,,, you may be able to find a great opertunity.
As far as specializing being worth a million. Yeah,,,, if you do it right and live/ practice in the right place,,,, it is way worth it. I make 3x's as much as I would as a GP in my area. So for me ,in my area , in my specialty , it was , and is , worth it many times that.
Not being arrogant,,, just being real.

 

[y123]

Financially speaking, specializing is not worth it if you have to take out full loan.
If you have wealthy parents who will pay for your entire education, it is definitely worth it.

 

[Cold Front]

Financially speaking, specializing is not worth it if you have to take out full loan.
If you have wealthy parents who will pay for your entire education, it is definitely worth it.

Which will make residency easier to get in in the long run?

The residencies at the d school I graduated from are over taken by foreign students who are paying top dollars. Even under-grad schools in this country are targeting international students more and more every year to increase their bottom line.

I was listening to NPR radio few months back, and the topic was US colleges and international students. They were discussing a Midwest college that took a large number of Chinese students to study different degrees at their institution. One of the Chinese students was complaining about how difficult it was for him to find an English speaking classmate, as he often ran into a fellow Chinese student in class, at his dorm, at the gym, at the library, etc...

Some schools are no longer interested in what the students think or can afford. Hence why education is becoming more about "what's in your wallet?".

 

[y123]

Are the residencies at your dental school full of international students who graduated from American schools or foreign students that graduated from foreign schools?

Which will make residency easier to get in in the long run?

The residencies at the d school I graduated from are over taken by foreign students who are paying top dollars. Even under-grad schools in this country are targeting international students more and more every year to increase their bottom line.

I was listening to NPR radio few months back, and the topic was US colleges and international students. They were discussing a Midwest college that took a large number of Chinese students to study different degrees at their institution. One of the Chinese students was complaining about how difficult it was for him to find an English speaking classmate, as he often ran into a fellow Chinese student in class, at his dorm, at the gym, at the library, etc...

Some schools are no longer interested in what the students think or can afford. Hence why education is becoming more about "what's in your wallet?".

 

[Cold Front]

Are the residencies at your dental school full of international students who graduated from American schools or foreign students that graduated from foreign schools?

Foreign students from foreign schools; Middle East (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Syria, Lebanon, Qatar...), Asia (China, Japan, India, etc) and few Europeans. They are over 50% combined of the overall post-graduate residents.

The money is so good, the school even opened a dental residency campus in Dubai to target more of these foreign trained dentists.

 

[y123]

Foreign students from foreign schools; Middle East (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Syria, Lebanon, Qatar...), Asia (China, Japan, India, etc) and few Europeans. They are over 50% combined of the overall post-graduate residents.

The money is so good, the school even opened a dental residency campus in Dubai to target more of these foreign trained dentists.

Wow I had no clue. Do those foreign trained dentists need to finish an advanced standing program at a US dental school in order to practice in the US? Or they can practice as specialists in the US directly after finishing residency?

 

[htdt]

Foreign students from foreign schools; Middle East (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Syria, Lebanon, Qatar...), Asia (China, Japan, India, etc) and few Europeans. They are over 50% combined of the overall post-graduate residents.

The money is so good, the school even opened a dental residency campus in Dubai to target more of these foreign trained dentists.

That School's name start with "B", right?

Or maybe "N", just saying...

 

[Cold Front]

That School's name start with "B", right?

Or maybe "N", just saying...

School's first name starts with "B" and ends with "N".

 

[Cold Front]

Wow I had no clue. Do those foreign trained dentists need to finish an advanced standing program at a US dental school in order to practice in the US? Or they can practice as specialists in the US directly after finishing residency?

Yes, for those who want to practice in the US, they must do advanced standing first then apply to residency. For those who directly go to residency from overseas, they must either go back to their home country or practice at a state that doesn't have the 2-years advanced standing requirement.

Residency cost at the school is topping close to $100k a year depending on the specialty. But there is unofficial unpublished price tag for foreign residents that directly go to specialties. The schools they attended/governments/other entities usually pick up the tab. At any given year, a number of seats are reserved for those foreign residents, because of special relations the school has with the schools/governments those residents came from. This may surprise some, but a foreign dentist who trained ortho in US, then goes back to... say Kuwait, or Dubai, or Saudi Arabia to practice.... is very rare in that part of the world. The idea of him/her saying "Oh, I'm an orthodontist, from such and such school in the US..." will be a big selling point for those doctors to market themselves to the elites of their society. In fact, I have a former foreign perio resident friend who moved back to his small town in Italy, and named the practice after the dental school in the US... and the practice looks like something out of Tiffany's Jewelry store. I was tempted to post a photo of his office here, but would be wrong without his consent.

The point is..., schools also gear their businesses towards international markets, for the reasons I mentioned above.

 

[Holyhik]

Yes, for those who want to practice in the US, they must do advanced standing first then apply to residency. For those who directly go to residency from overseas, they must either go back to their home country or practice at a state that doesn't have the 2-years advanced standing requirement.

Residency cost at the school is topping close to $100k a year depending on the specialty. But there is unofficial unpublished price tag for foreign residents that directly go to specialties. The schools they attended/governments/other entities usually pick up the tab. At any given year, a number of seats are reserved for those foreign residents, because of special relations the school has with the schools/governments those residents came from. This may surprise some, but a foreign dentist who trained ortho in US, then goes back to... say Kuwait, or Dubai, or Saudi Arabia to practice.... is very rare in that part of the world. The idea of him/her saying "Oh, I'm an orthodontist, from such and such school in the US..." will be a big selling point for those doctors to market themselves to the elites of their society. In fact, I have a former foreign perio resident friend who moved back to his small town in Italy, and named the practice after the dental school in the US... and the practice looks like something out of Tiffany's Jewelry store. I was tempted to post a photo of his office here, but would be wrong without his consent.

The point is..., schools also gear their businesses towards international markets, for the reasons I mentioned above.

I was foreign-trained dentist and graduated from a residency program at the school you mentioned (start with B and locate Northeast). In the program I graduated from, out of 24 residents, 22-23 of them are foreign-trained dentist. Some of my friends now do teaching at their country, some practice in a state that doesn't require US DDS/DMD degree. For me, I am doing 2-year advance standing.

I totally agree that foreign dentists with US residency degree who decide to go back to their country will be super star as their credentials become very unique.

If you go to South Korea, you can see all your familiar dental schools name in US show up in many dental offices there.

Some worse scenarios I see would be foreign dentists who come to US for short CE course at famous XXX dental school and advertise themselves as XXX school graduate in their offices. I saw a dentist advertise themselves as Harvard graduate after attending their 5 days CE course....

 

[htdt]

I was foreign-trained dentist and graduated from a residency program at the school you mentioned (start with B and locate Northeast). In the program I graduated from, out of 24 residents, 22-23 of them are foreign-trained dentist. Some of my friends now do teaching at their country, some practice in a state that doesn't require US DDS/DMD degree. For me, I am doing 2-year advance standing.

I totally agree that foreign dentists with US residency degree who decide to go back to their country will be super star as their credentials become very unique.

If you go to South Korea, you can see all your familiar dental schools name in US show up in many dental offices there.

Some worse scenarios I see would be foreign dentists who come to US for short CE course at famous XXX dental school and advertise themselves as XXX school graduate in their offices. I saw a dentist advertise themselves as Harvard graduate after attending their 5 days CE course....

I'm from a so-called "third world" country in Asia. I saw a dentist advertises himself as an orthodontist with residency training from NYU. He even posted a photo of him taken at NYU with his "diploma". Well, all he did was participated in a short CE course during his vacation to the US. And yes he got a cute little "certificate" and a picture from NYU, so he looks legit right?
He is one of the top-earning "orthodontists" in my country despite having any formal training in orthodontics. So I'm not so sure if my DDS degree from the US will set me apart from the dentists in my country if choose to go back.

 

[Cold Front]

I'm from a so-called "third world" country in Asia. I saw a dentist advertises himself as an orthodontist with residency training from NYU. He even posted a photo of him taken at NYU with his "diploma". Well, all he did was participated in a short CE course during his vacation to the US. And yes he got a cute little "certificate" and a picture from NYU, so he looks legit right?
He is one of the top-earning "orthodontists" in my country despite having any formal training in orthodontics. So I'm not so sure if my DDS degree from the US will set me apart from the dentists in my country if choose to go back.

Dental training from the US is highly desirable service in many developing countries.

Unfortunately, scams will happen to fool people their dentist is a US trained dentist. Since there is no genuine dental authority in most of these developing countries to scrutinize the false advertisements, it will only get worse in the future. Heck, there is even Mad Max copy-cat in China.

 

[738177]

I was foreign-trained dentist and graduated from a residency program at the school you mentioned (start with B and locate Northeast). In the program I graduated from, out of 24 residents, 22-23 of them are foreign-trained dentist. Some of my friends now do teaching at their country, some practice in a state that doesn't require US DDS/DMD degree. For me, I am doing 2-year advance standing.

I'm curious, how many states actually allow this? I can't imagine there would be that many.

 

[Holyhik]

I'm curious, how many states actually allow this? I can't imagine there would be that many.

Some state has an option for foreign dentists who graduate residency program in US to take NBDE 1 2 and one regional clinical exam.

If I remember correctly, there are Texas, Virginal, and many more.. (about 10-ish). After they work for awhile, they can move to other state through the reciprocity.

 

[y123]

Some state has an option for foreign dentists who graduate residency program in US to take NBDE 1 2 and one regional clinical exam.

If I remember correctly, there are Texas, Virginal, and many more.. (about 10-ish). After they work for awhile, they can move to other state through the reciprocity.

Wow it is so much cheaper to go this route than attending a US dental school.

 

[Cold Front]

Wow it is so much cheaper to go this route than attending a US dental school.

Well, residencies will still cost you $200k+ and you would have a more difficult time with the clinic boards due to those exams geared towards the pre-residency training. It can be done, but it's more headache for a dentist who never trained as a DDS/DMD in the US.

Also, if you are open to restricting yourself to 20% of all states as a new "foreign dentist with US specialty", then you would have to practice 5 years before you can roam free into the other 80% as a specialist. Not many people go this route. You might be saving money, but you are trading it with restrictions and more steps to be like other specialists. Time is money.

 

[TanMan]

Heck no... assuming you live to be 60, 3 years of your life is 5% you'll never get back, and you can make much more as a GP and come out ahead if you have your own practice.

 

[Steins;Gate]

Heck no... assuming you live to be 60, 3 years of your life is 5% you'll never get back, and you can make much more as a GP and come out ahead if you have your own practice.

Do you have solid figures to back this point up?

 

[TanMan]

Nope, anecdotal (the worst kind of evidence) - my own experience and comparing myself to other providers and specialists in the area. If you know what you're doing in the business, you'll do better than your specialist counterparts.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Nope, anecdotal (the worst kind of evidence) - my own experience and comparing myself to other providers and specialists in the area. If you know what you're doing in the business, you'll do better than your specialist counterparts.

Lol k

 

[Cello]

Nope, anecdotal (the worst kind of evidence) - my own experience and comparing myself to other providers and specialists in the area. If you know what you're doing in the business, you'll do better than your specialist counterparts.

Only seven messages in 13 years. Impressive.