Is it worth it?

[jb05241995]

Hi, I'm a current D2. I will be graduating with an approximate 500k dental school debt when I gradate not including the loans. I'm so bummed out because before starting school, it never hit me how much money that is because I got caught up in the fact that I had gotten into dental school. Should I even continue with school and work to pay the crazy debt or should I just drop out? Even if I drop out, I would have to pay around 2000 a month for the monthly payments to pay back the loans. I really want to become a doctor and just graduate and work and have a comfortable life. For those that are paying their debt off, how is it really? Where I'm from, I'll probably start making 10,000 a month. I can live with my parents and send in around 8000 for the montly payments once I graduate, but I'm wondering how it all works. This all really sucks because I don't even love dentistry, I HATE the city my school is in and I miss my home and family. They barely give us money to live on so I live like a dog. I can barely buy food. I'm so depressed with all this. Can anyone give their insight?

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[18612366]

Hi, I'm a current D2. I will be graduating with an approximate 500k dental school debt when I gradate not including the loans. I'm so bummed out because before starting school, it never hit me how much money that is because I got caught up in the fact that I had gotten into dental school. Should I even continue with school and work to pay the crazy debt or should I just drop out? Even if I drop out, I would have to pay around 2000 a month for the monthly payments to pay back the loans. I really want to become a doctor and just graduate and work and have a comfortable life. For those that are paying their debt off, how is it really? Where I'm from, I'll probably start making 10,000 a month. I can live with my parents and send in around 8000 for the montly payments once I graduate, but I'm wondering how it all works. This all really sucks because I don't even love dentistry, I HATE the city my school is in and I miss my home and family. They barely give us money to live on so I live like a dog. I can barely buy food. I'm so depressed with all this. Can anyone give their insight?

Join the military?

 

[GypsyHummus]

In two years you'll be out.

Average dental salary is like what, 140K?

Say you take home 100K. Thats close to 8.5K/month. Now, lets say that income doesn't increase (highly unlikely). Depending on where you live, you can get by with 2K/month. That leaves you with 6.5K/month in repayment, multiply that by 12 months and every year you are paying down $78,000.

We have 78,000$ being paid out each year. In seven years, you would be debt free. This is assuming that you don't increase your salary at all. If you are pulling in 200K/year, things get so much better.

Hi, I'm a current D2. I will be graduating with an approximate 500k dental school debt when I gradate not including the loans. I'm so bummed out because before starting school, it never hit me how much money that is because I got caught up in the fact that I had gotten into dental school. Should I even continue with school and work to pay the crazy debt or should I just drop out? Even if I drop out, I would have to pay around 2000 a month for the monthly payments to pay back the loans. I really want to become a doctor and just graduate and work and have a comfortable life. For those that are paying their debt off, how is it really? Where I'm from, I'll probably start making 10,000 a month. I can live with my parents and send in around 8000 for the montly payments once I graduate, but I'm wondering how it all works. This all really sucks because I don't even love dentistry, I HATE the city my school is in and I miss my home and family. They barely give us money to live on so I live like a dog. I can barely buy food. I'm so depressed with all this. Can anyone give their insight?

 

[Munks]

Yep, dental school sucks. Loans suck. Graduate and live at home and pay em back. IMO you would be in a much worse position to drop out than to continue, but that's your own personal call. Sure being away from home sucks but it's just temporary.

 

[shulk]

Don't drop out unless you have some guaranteed amazing opportunity right now instead. I'm guessing not, so it would be a huge mistake. Your feelings about dentistry may change once you start actually doing a lot on patients. Secondly, why is it imperative you return to where you are from to live/work? Can't you go somewhere with better opportunities? Also, why do you hate the city you are in now?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

In two years you'll be out.

Average dental salary is like what, 140K?

Say you take home 100K. Thats close to 8.5K/month. Now, lets say that income doesn't increase (highly unlikely). Depending on where you live, you can get by with 2K/month. That leaves you with 6.5K/month in repayment, multiply that by 12 months and every year you are paying down $78,000.

We have 78,000$ being paid out each year. In seven years, you would be debt free. This is assuming that you don't increase your salary at all. If you are pulling in 200K/year, things get so much better.

It is my understanding that starting salaries for associates are closer to $120,000 and that GP income has been trending downward, but we'll stick with your $140,000 gross and $100,000 net income. In your example you've forgotten the elephant in the room - interest on those student loans. To pay that $500,000 off in the seven years you have suggested, your monthly payment is actually $7,500. That's $90,000 a year, not $78,000. Do you think $1,000 a month is enough to live on? I certainly don't. This is why Big Hoss is always telling people to go to the cheapest school they get into. Student loans are no joke! Do I think the OP should drop out? No, but they better have realistic expectations. Even dragging repayment out to 20 years is still going to mean having to come up with almost $50,000 post-tax annually for the next two decades of their life. Not fun at all. Heaven help them if they take on even more loans for residency.

Big Hoss

 

[738177]

It is my understanding that starting salaries for associates are closer to $120,000 and that GP income has been trending downward, but we'll stick with your $140,000 gross and $100,000 net income. In your example you've forgotten the elephant in the room - interest on those student loans. To pay that $500,000 off in the seven years you have suggested, your monthly payment is actually $7,500. That's $90,000 a year, not $78,000. Do you think $1,000 a month is enough to live on? I certainly don't. This is why Big Hoss is always telling people to go to the cheapest school they get into. Student loans are no joke! Do I think the OP should drop out? No, but they better have realistic expectations. Even dragging repayment out to 20 years is still going to mean having to come up with almost $50,000 post-tax annually for the next two decades of their life. Not fun at all. Heaven help them if they take on even more loans for residency.

Big Hoss

The "realistic" expectation among pre-dental students these days: I'll just open up or buy a practice and pay the loan off quicker. If all else fails, IBR/PSLF got my back.

 

[BigTurk]

Look into military or NHSC. My wife and are both student loan free after doing NHSC LRP for 3 years. Just something to look into.

 

[Springs01]

Hey Jb, I completely understand what you're going through. I also had serious thoughts about dropping out. Dental school and its debt is a lot of pain, with not enough gain IMO (unless you go to a cheap school, or you've somehow escaped being in debt). Quitting might seem like a relief, but you've come too far to quit now! It'll make sense to quit ONLY if you have an actual solid plan to repay your debt and still live a reasonable lifestyle afterwards.

Also, try to exercise some strategies to lessen the burden of dental school debt. You said your school's in the city? maybe you can to move further away and try commuting, to save on rent. But you'll need to crunch some numbers to see if this will actually be worth it.
Buy groceries, and make your own food. Don't eat out unless it's a special occasion. Etc.

If debt is your only concern, I think you should definitely stay in dental school. If you hate dentistry, then that's a different story.

 

[321931]

Edit: I realize that I came across as negative, but I would say to not give up dental school.

It's a hard road, and you have to plan well and you will be fine in the end. It's a rewarding profession that allows us to help other people without the stresses of medicine. Work hard and you will come out on top. If I had to redo everything, I would do dentistry again in a heartbeat. Good luck.

 

[GypsyHummus]

People live off 2k/month all the time. I lived on about 1.6k/month working 60 hour weeks, and while I wouldn't say I was living in the lap of luxury, I was able to afford most things and pay my bills on time.

You do realize that when you graduate you will have other obligations right? It won't be as easy as live at home and pay down debts. You will have a fiance, maybe kids on the way, maybe married, maybe already have a kid or two, maybe buying a house, or a practice. You are going to live from 28-38 in your parents basement socking away 8k for loans???

That's not going to happen. All those people that say live at home and pay loans are not realistic. Life happens, and you will understand that your obligations will change in your late 20's and 30's.

What I will say is learn how to get out of debt, learn how to run your own practice, and balance your life. You will most likely be in serious debt for 10 years or more even with a successful practice. It will be stressful on top of marriage, kids, and paying for all that jazz. It might even break your marriage. It might end up in a divorce. You might end up HATING what you got into. There's a reason why alot of docs/dentists are broke and end up in divorces. But you are in it, so make the best of it.

It's so careless, and naive to say live at home, be frugal...for what? 10 freaking years? No. That doesn't happen.

How is it really? Owning your own business will consume you. The bank and the federal gov. own your ass. But there's light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe when you are in your late 30's after a decade of practicing you will be debt free. I always find it interesting when new grads say they went into dentistry for the lifestyle? That lifestyle comes after a decade or...two decades of hard work. Some of the best dentists I know that are $$$ worked 6 days a week. Worked from 8 AM to 8 PM. Worked at another job to pay their loans/practice loan. But they got through it and now are "coasting."

Or you can go corporate/associate...work 5-6 days a week, and barely make a dent into your loans...and pay it off as a tax bomb for 30 years. That doesn't sound to good either.

What gypsyhummus said was absolutely incorrect. You will understand how taxes, and life will bend you over after your first year of work. And not the first half year ( because you will get a refund) more like first full year where you will pay anywhere from 10-20k during tax season.

Good luck.

 

[321931]

People live off 2k/month all the time. I lived on about 1.6k/month working 60 hour weeks, and while I wouldn't say I was living in the lap of luxury, I was able to afford most things and pay my bills on time.

I didn't mean to say that you can't live off of 2k. I totally believe you can live off less. But you understand that earning 140k puts you in a very high tax bracket. At the end of the year, tax season you will have to pay 10-20k. First year I paid about 20+k in taxes. Second year I paid about 15k. Student loans above 70k ish are non-deductible.

That's what I mean. It's very unrealistic to say yeah 6k off to loans, live off 2k. What happens during tax time? How are you going to pay your tax bomb?

What about a emergency savings? What happens if you break your hand...Marriage..kids...other expenses.

Like I said, the bottom line is plan very very very well to get out this. My opinion, buy a solid practice, and work hard. Dentistry is a rewarding profession if done well. I have no regrets and would do it again in a heartbeat. It's hard, but its worth it.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I don't understand what you mean by tax bomb. Usually taxes are taken out of each salary, right?

I've never been i high income earner before, so I'm not sure how the end of tax season works. I know totally taxes for someone making 140k is around 40k.

I didn't mean to say that you can't live off of 2k. I totally believe you can live off less. But you understand that earning 140k puts you in a very high tax bracket. At the end of the year, tax season you will have to pay 10-20k. First year I paid about 20+k in taxes. Second year I paid about 15k. Student loans above 70k ish are non-deductible.

That's what I mean. It's very unrealistic to say yeah 6k off to loans, live off 2k. What happens during tax time? How are you going to pay your tax bomb?

What about a emergency savings? What happens if you break your hand...Marriage..kids...other expenses.

Like I said, the bottom line is plan very very very well to get out this. My opinion, buy a solid practice, and work hard. Dentistry is a rewarding profession if done well. I have no regrets and would do it again in a heartbeat. It's hard, but its worth it.

 

[321931]

I don't understand what you mean by tax bomb. Usually taxes are taken out of each salary, right?

I've never been i high income earner before, so I'm not sure how the end of tax season works. I know totally taxes for someone making 140k is around 40k.

Tax season is no fun for high earners. You'll understand later.

Anyways, dental school is hard. I had a tough time in school. I struggled clinically, but now I'm fine. I graduated after and it was liberating. Alot of people would love to be in your position, who never got into dental school. It's hard now, but it will be rewarded later. Yes you will have to work hard later to...but it's worth it. Look at the positives, not the negatives. Learn to also balance your school and yourself. Work out, gym, eat right, study hard, socialize is all part of a recipe for happiness and not burning out. This applies to real life to...focusing on just paying off debt and 6 days a week work is not healthy. Have a balanced plan in school and out will go a long way.

With enough planning it is a rewarding profession that can allow you the opportunity to live very well. Make the most of your time and learn from the instructors and do your best. Head up and be positive about the opportunities in front of you. Time flies by. Before you know it school will be over and be a dentist. It goes by reall really quick. =)

 

[2TH MVR]

I agree with Rainee, but I do believe that once graduated ... you need to put your energy into paying off the debt. The sooner you are debt free .... the sooner you can enjoy financial freedom. I believe you should find a good associateship and then plan on working for a DSO. If this means 6 days a week ... then so be it. During this time ..... look for a nice practice to purchase. The sooner you can own your own practice .... the better your life will be. Once your private practice is off and running .... then drop the DSO job and back down to a 4 or 4 1/2 day per week schedule.

I'm 55 and work 3 days per week in my private offices (2) and 3 days a week at a DSO. My kids are in college and my wife and I are empty nesters. The money is really good. Putting the extra money into retirement funds. End goal is to sell my private offices and work part time for the current DSO.

As for taxes .... when you are out .....my best advice is to obtain the services of a specialized accountant who works with mostly dentists and MDs. I currently pay my acct a monthly retainer fee and he is work every penny. By paying a monthly .... I do not get nickel and dimed.

Every situation is different, but in my private office .... I pay MYSELF a bi-weekly salary minus taxes. At the DSO .... I currently contribute 10% of my salary to the company 401K acct. That percentage will rise to the max amount within the next 6 months.

Gotta work hard. The reward is there.

 

[Awarara]

I didn't mean to say that you can't live off of 2k. I totally believe you can live off less. But you understand that earning 140k puts you in a very high tax bracket. At the end of the year, tax season you will have to pay 10-20k. First year I paid about 20+k in taxes. Second year I paid about 15k. Student loans above 70k ish are non-deductible.

That's what I mean. It's very unrealistic to say yeah 6k off to loans, live off 2k. What happens during tax time? How are you going to pay your tax bomb?

What about a emergency savings? What happens if you break your hand...Marriage..kids...other expenses.

Like I said, the bottom line is plan very very very well to get out this. My opinion, buy a solid practice, and work hard. Dentistry is a rewarding profession if done well. I have no regrets and would do it again in a heartbeat. It's hard, but its worth it.

Can you explain this 20k tax bomb at the end of the season that you have to pay when you make 140k? Doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[esqueleto]

Look into military or NHSC. My wife and are both student loan free after doing NHSC LRP for 3 years. Just something to look into.

Wow, both you and your wife got it! Is it competitive? How did you like those 3 years?

 

[2TH MVR]

Can you explain this 20k tax bomb at the end of the season that you have to pay when you make 140k? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Not sure about Rainee's tax situation, but if you are pulling salary from an employer .... you will pay a large chunk towards taxes (as Rainee stated). That is why you need to obtain your own practice. Then you can do pre-tax profit sharing plans, office and building depreciation, office loan interest and principal payments, etc. etc.

 

[Awarara]

Not sure about Rainee's tax situation, but if you are pulling salary from an employer .... you will pay a large chunk towards taxes (as Rainee stated). That is why you need to obtain your own practice. Then you can do pre-tax profit sharing plans, office and building depreciation, office loan interest and principal payments, etc. etc.

Yah, your employer withholds your taxes but not a 20k bill that you have to pay at tax season. the only relevant tax bomb i can think of is at the loan forgiveness if you do ibr. i just don't want new dentists to read this thread and hoard 20,000 dollars up until the end of tax season lol.

 

[Apramana]

@Rainee @2TH MVR

Thank you both for your contributions to our community.

I would urge you to strongly consider getting SDN verified as dentists:
Doctor Verification

Not only would it add significant weight to each of your contributions on SDN, but it also seems to provide some upgrades for your SDN accounts, as well.

Thank you for your consideration, and I look forward to continuing to learn from you. Please have a great day.

 

[toothfairyy]

To be honest it sounds like you don't even want to do dentistry though. It's hard and loans are high but you kind of know both of those things when you start. If it's just home sickness, take a break and come back. Loans get taken care of but you should want it. If you aren't content, assess. It is worth it but the decision is yours. Best of luck

 

[2TH MVR]

@Rainee @2TH MVR

Thank you both for your contributions to our community.

I would urge you to strongly consider getting SDN verified as dentists:
Doctor Verification

Not only would it add significant weight to each of your contributions on SDN, but it also seems to provide some upgrades for your SDN accounts, as well.

Thank you for your consideration, and I look forward to continuing to learn from you. Please have a great day.

@Apramana

Sent in info for doctor verification. Later will become a donor. Love this site and am happy to offer advice accumulated over the last 4 yrs undergrad DDS, 1 year AEGD, 2 years post-grad (Ortho) and 25 years of private practice experience.

 

[Apramana]

Thanks for the feedback, @2TH MVR , and for your support of SDN.

Thanks, as well, for sharing your background.

I truly appreciate all that you do for our community, both on and off SDN, and I hope that you find your efforts very fulfilling.

Please have an amazing day, and please keep up the great work I certainly look forward to emulating your excellent example.

 

[2TH MVR]

As some may know ... I am downsizing my life and looking to sell my two ortho practices. Some news that has relevance to this thread. A young orthodontist who was interested in buying 1 or both of my practices has been turned down by THREE banks. Reason? His large student loan debt. All of this was relayed to me by my broker. The practices are relatively small and I wasn't asking huge money for either practice. Of course ... there may be other financial considerations (mortgage, credit card debt, etc. etc.) associated with the buyer.

Other more established Orthos have made offers with confirmed lender financing according to their brokers.

 

[Garett24]

The OP is smart to break free from groupthink and defer from falling into a sunk-cost fallacy as my classmates have. I am in the exact situation and have tried everything for scholarships. Army 3 year, ,AF 3 year, Af2 year, NHSC and denied from all so far. And I thought I had pretty good stats.

Regardless I called my father who is a veterinarian almost on the verge of tears because I wanted to drop out. I felt cheated. I felt stupid for starting school with such high loan rates. People in my class with diabetes and failing classes will be loan free to serve the Army and I can't get in. My father told me something that silenced the storm in my mind. He told me of mongolians who used to train wild horses and told me this quote: "Let Go or Be Dragged". I am also a D2 with the same amount of debt. Do I like dentistry? Im pretty sure I do. But you have to let go and strategize. Here is my plan for both of us right now:

1.) Apply to NHSC 2 year loan scholarship next year. I just read my 3 year application today and was denied. I calculated it and I had a 3% chance of getting in. Being an upper middle class male doesn't help either.

2.) Apply to a millitary 2 year HPSP

3.) Apply for NHSC loan repayment after graduation- this deal is actually pretty dang good

4.) Work on indian reservation making bank to throw at loans

5.) Stop worrying. You sound alot like me. To get into dental school your neural circuits have to be sharp. This is a double edged sword as thinking abouts something makes it stronger.

"Let go or be dragged"

Edit: Also do cardio. Seriously. Do it. Having that amount of stress without regulating your sympathetic nervous system is not healthy. Cardio makes your para more efficient. The clarity it brings will allow you to better understand your situation.

 

[Gumby2020]

Hi, I'm a current D2. I will be graduating with an approximate 500k dental school debt when I gradate not including the loans. I'm so bummed out because before starting school, it never hit me how much money that is because I got caught up in the fact that I had gotten into dental school. Should I even continue with school and work to pay the crazy debt or should I just drop out? Even if I drop out, I would have to pay around 2000 a month for the monthly payments to pay back the loans. I really want to become a doctor and just graduate and work and have a comfortable life. For those that are paying their debt off, how is it really? Where I'm from, I'll probably start making 10,000 a month. I can live with my parents and send in around 8000 for the montly payments once I graduate, but I'm wondering how it all works. This all really sucks because I don't even love dentistry, I HATE the city my school is in and I miss my home and family. They barely give us money to live on so I live like a dog. I can barely buy food. I'm so depressed with all this. Can anyone give their insight?

I would certainly say not to quit dental school now. I imagine that either you have or will soon pass your NBDE part 1 and have already invested $200k into your education. In my opinion you are past the point in your education where dropping out would make sense (granted any students loans accrued for attending for any length of time would be detrimental if you failed to finish the program). As a practicing dentist in Public Health, I can say that it is very possible to live comfortably and repay the debt load. My annual income is $156k with full benefits and after taxes are removed my monthly bring home is just over $8,000 a month. I have been practicing dentistry for 2 years. I am on a standard repayment plan of 10 years with a loan balance of $366,000 at 5.5% interest (consolidated loans to Doctor Bank for a lower interest rate). My monthly payment is just under $4,000 a month leaving me $4,000 a month to live on, which in my case is plenty. I am married with 3 small children and we live in a nice 3,000 square foot home (nothing luxury but nice, all my neighbors are teachers) and have some good used cars to get us around. Since public health covers all of my benefits including a 401k retirement plan, I get along just fine and I am able to pay extra each month towards loan repayment. It should also be noted that in many states working for qualified health centers allows you to obtain $25,000 every year for tuition reimbursement. Although public health is not my idea of a lifelong dental career, it is working fine for me now and allowing me to both increase in speed and confidence while saving to purchase a practice of my own.

 

[mdina]

Hi, I'm a current D2. I will be graduating with an approximate 500k dental school debt when I gradate not including the loans. I'm so bummed out because before starting school, it never hit me how much money that is because I got caught up in the fact that I had gotten into dental school. Should I even continue with school and work to pay the crazy debt or should I just drop out? Even if I drop out, I would have to pay around 2000 a month for the monthly payments to pay back the loans. I really want to become a doctor and just graduate and work and have a comfortable life. For those that are paying their debt off, how is it really? Where I'm from, I'll probably start making 10,000 a month. I can live with my parents and send in around 8000 for the montly payments once I graduate, but I'm wondering how it all works. This all really sucks because I don't even love dentistry, I HATE the city my school is in and I miss my home and family. They barely give us money to live on so I live like a dog. I can barely buy food. I'm so depressed with all this. Can anyone give their insight?

hi there, in my experience there are always additional costs that creep in. CE courses, taxes, accountant etc. If you started you may as well finish now.. the military is not a bad idea actually. It will help with the financial burden and you already feel burdened by it so that feeling won't go away quickly.. you can get great experience in and also the military gives you structure. If I could redo these last 10 years I would have gone down the miltary/navy route. on the other hand, only YOU know if you can do this- dentistry or the military route.. it is not about being positive or how you seem to others.. it is about being honest to yourself and then think options and remember, all you can do is your best. Try not to be too hard on yourself and if you decide to stay on, start looking for a mentor now. And never be afraid to ask any questions you may have during your training. Also, keep fit. Yoga or running do something to keep your core strong. Also socialize, have time for fun... it's key in dentistry to learn to live a balanced life. You can do it. No matter what you decide to do, remember what matters is doing your best and to never give up trying. wishing you all the best.

 

[TanMan]

Hi, I'm a current D2. I will be graduating with an approximate 500k dental school debt when I gradate not including the loans. I'm so bummed out because before starting school, it never hit me how much money that is because I got caught up in the fact that I had gotten into dental school. Should I even continue with school and work to pay the crazy debt or should I just drop out? Even if I drop out, I would have to pay around 2000 a month for the monthly payments to pay back the loans. I really want to become a doctor and just graduate and work and have a comfortable life. For those that are paying their debt off, how is it really? Where I'm from, I'll probably start making 10,000 a month. I can live with my parents and send in around 8000 for the montly payments once I graduate, but I'm wondering how it all works. This all really sucks because I don't even love dentistry, I HATE the city my school is in and I miss my home and family. They barely give us money to live on so I live like a dog. I can barely buy food. I'm so depressed with all this. Can anyone give their insight?

I think we get these kinds of threads quite often, but in the grand scheme of things, 500k is not much. If you are flexible in where you can work, you can make 20k+/month working for production heavy medicaid mills. If you can keep your head afloat in paying as little debt as possible and start an office asap, that 20k can easily become 50 or even 100k+/month (net, pre-tax). It's hard to see it right now, since there's so much bureaucracy and school hitting you all at once right now, but trust me, life is so much easier when you graduate unless you limit yourself to a geographic location.

 

[2TH MVR]

Tanman makes a good point. 500K is not a relatively huge number. It seems that way if you are a poor student like most of us were. At one time ... I was leveraged 800K home, 500K beach property, 375K 1st practice, 200K into new start up, 500k since start up outgrew itself and needed to move into a larger facility, bought office condo 3000 sq ft for 500K and another 500K for build-out and equipment to start a 2nd practice by scratch. Would I advise a new graduate to do what I did? Probably not in this new economy. No need for these large, high overhead practices. Small and nimble practices with low overhead.

It takes money to make money. That 500K educational debt will be your best investment ever. Now finish up your studies and when you graduate .... talk to a financial expert and begin a strategy to financial freedom.