IQ and Medicine

[LilOrphanFourval]

Yes

Can you provide some sources? Admittedly beyond my undergraduate education I've only done a few pubmed searches and have found things like Race differences in IQ: Hans Eysenck's contribution to the debate in the light of subsequent research in JARID, and Intelligence: new findings and theoretical developments Am Psychol that seem to indicate that IQ varies a ton depending on education. If IQ is learned and not inherent then how can it be a strong predictor of success as opposed to a metric for measuring education attained?

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[JJRousseau]

As someone else who doesn't believe that we have much in the way of agency, what is it that makes you believe that we have any sort of ability to be independent from our biology, circumstance, etc.? Personally, I feel like I have some sort of free will, but I have never heard a good argument for it.

I actually do think our agency is very much limited by environment, genetics etc. However, your question of whether free will definitively exists at all or not is not falsifiable (kind of like, "God done it"). It is an enjoyable intellectual debate, but unresolvable by any experimental method to date. So, I choose to believe that in most people their exists the potential for at least a sliver of agency as corollary to the observation of the existence of consciousness. This is a belief, which I think enriches individual and social experience and is at the core of my religiosity. To my mind, it's a bit like choosing to read and engage with Hamlet rather than try and sort out the precise electrochemical synapses that fired in Shakespeare's head during its conception. I don't want to write an essay and it's a fair bit off-topic from the scope of the thread, so feel free to PM if you want to discuss further.

 

[WisNeuro]

Can you provide some sources? Admittedly beyond my undergraduate education I've only done a few pubmed searches and have found things like Race differences in IQ: Hans Eysenck's contribution to the debate in the light of subsequent research in JARID, and Intelligence: new findings and theoretical developments Am Psychol that seem to indicate that IQ varies a ton depending on education. If IQ is learned and not inherent then how can it be a strong predictor of success as opposed to a metric for measuring education attained?

I don't know about quick references. This is a fairly indepth topic, I could teach a semester long class on just this topic. Long story short, both genetic and environmental influences determine expression of IQ. Think about genetic IQ as a certain range, environment can push you up or down in that range, but you're still constricted at the ends of the range, for the most part by the genetic constraints.

 

[LilOrphanFourval]

I don't know about quick references. This is a fairly indepth topic, I could teach a semester long class on just this topic. Long story short, both genetic and environmental influences determine expression of IQ. Think about genetic IQ as a certain range, environment can push you up or down in that range, but you're still constricted at the ends of the range, for the most part by the genetic constraints.

Ok. To be a bit clearer then, could you point me towards any readings that make an argument towards the range of the value in any particular individual, and the average difference in ranges between people? Barring stand out cases like the Einsteins and Feynmans it seems as though IQ is kind of useless as a predictor. Because it seems like education is pretty key to developing you IQ, access to education varies pretty widely even in a single city, and statistically educated people as a whole are more successful than those that are not, then wouldn't IQ only work as a good predictor for a very small subset of the population.

I'm sorry for being so skeptical and if I come off harsh in any way, it just seems like the only group of people that really argue for IQ nowadays are the race-realists.

 

[ZedsDed]

Is IQ a powerful predictor when you control for things like socio-economic status, education, etc.?

To the extent that this is possible, yes.

Can you provide some sources? Admittedly beyond my undergraduate education I've only done a few pubmed searches and have found things like Race differences in IQ: Hans Eysenck's contribution to the debate in the light of subsequent research in JARID, and Intelligence: new findings and theoretical developments Am Psychol that seem to indicate that IQ varies a ton depending on education. If IQ is learned and not inherent then how can it be a strong predictor of success as opposed to a metric for measuring education attained?

Woah, slow your roll there. I'll give you sources when I get home later. Race differences are a whole nother ball-o-wax.

 

[ZedsDed]

I'm sorry for being so skeptical and if I come off harsh in any way, it just seems like the only group of people that really argue for IQ nowadays are the race-realists.

No... this is false. You know, you could search yourself instead of making assumptions like this? Just a friendly suggestion. Not trying to be rude.

 

[ZedsDed]

I don't know about quick references. This is a fairly indepth topic, I could teach a semester long class on just this topic. Long story short, both genetic and environmental influences determine expression of IQ. Think about genetic IQ as a certain range, environment can push you up or down in that range, but you're still constricted at the ends of the range, for the most part by the genetic constraints.

Exactly. "Nature vs nurture" is a false dichotomy. Phenotype=genes x environment, by definition.

 

[WisNeuro]

What Zed said. I've got too much editing to do on a manuscript today to chase down a ton of references to clear up wild misconceptions. In group studies, IQ is far from a useless predictor. It's pretty much the best predictor of success we have. But, that is too simplistic of a statement to make for a complicated topic given intra-group variability on certain characteristics.

 

[WAnative]

If CARS has any relation to IQ I must of got way dumber because first attempt I got 130 second time 125... bummer

 

[mwsapphire]

If CARS has any relation to IQ I must of got way dumber because first attempt I got 130 second time 125... bummer

That comment combined with your avatar.....

 

[WAnative]

That comment combined with your avatar.....

sure fire signs of future smart doctah

 

[altblue]

.

 

[SunnyDO]

If you measure a fish on its ability to fly.. it will spend the rest of its life thinking it is a *****.

IQ is meaningless.

Everyone is a genius, so long as you find the subject-matter to which their genius applies.

 

[WisNeuro]

Thanks, Deepak.

 

[freak7]

Everyone is a genius, so long as you find the subject-matter to which their genius applies.

You have clearly never met my cat

 

[sullen-burger]

You have clearly never met my cat

If my phone charger cord was the subject matter, then my cat is a genius for figuring out how to bite through that subject matter.

 

[Gurkhali]

Hey is someone going to pass the blunt or am I the only one that doesn't get to armchair philosophize here?

 

[altblue]

If you measure a fish on its ability to fly.. it will spend the rest of its life thinking it is a *****.

IQ is meaningless.

Everyone is a genius, so long as you find the subject-matter to which their genius applies.

You could also measure the fish's swimming ability and assess it accordingly, since you know, the vast majority of fish can swim. If one can't, they have a problem

 

[SunnyDO]

You could also measure the fish's swimming ability and assess it accordingly, since you know, the vast majority of fish can swim. If one can't, they have a problem

Eels can swim backwards, but sharks can't. Would you consider eels better swimmers than sharks?

 

[Jared.mock]

What Zed said. I've got too much editing to do on a manuscript today to chase down a ton of references to clear up wild misconceptions. In group studies, IQ is far from a useless predictor. It's pretty much the best predictor of success we have. But, that is too simplistic of a statement to make for a complicated topic given intra-group variability on certain characteristics.

I have read before that a floor IQ of 120 is required for someone to do anything they want (within reason), including a PhD in physics etc.

I wonder if this is actually true, and how accurate 120 is because it was a number chosen to be studied arbitrarily.

 

[WisNeuro]

I have read before that a floor IQ of 120 is required for someone to do anything they want (within reason), including a PhD in physics etc.

I wonder if this is actually true, and how accurate 120 is because it was a number chosen to be studied arbitrarily.

Not really. There is some (albeit dated at this point) research that looked at ranges of IQ in various professions. While IQs more than 1 SD above average were the mean and median of professions requiring PhDs and MDs, there were lots people squarely in the average range (100-115) in these professions.

 

[ZedsDed]

Is IQ a powerful predictor when you control for things like socio-economic status, education, etc.? reasoning, but if you control for time women are just as capable. Also, although there is a correlation between intelligence and IQ, couldn't it be that the access to more education would lead to an increase in IQ? The types of reasoning that IQ tests can certainly be affected by the quality of education you receive in your formative years.

Start with this:
Intelligence and socioeconomic success: A meta-analytic review of longitudinal research
Attaching the PDF file here may be a violation of copyright law, so I won't try it. Just PM me if the paywall is an issue.

Keep in mind that English is the author's second or third language.

tl,dr:

Mods: one screenshot of one figure, properly cited, for purposes of criticism on a non-profit website is protected as "fair use" by law.
See: 17 U.S. Code § 107 - Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

 

[anisole]

Having read that article in its entirety (found it free via my university), I believe that it serves as a bridge between those who claim that intelligence is the end-all-be-all and those who consider IQ to be irrelevant.

By accentuating that IQ is important, but not the only important factor, the article does shed light on the possible motives people have when they say that IQ is irrelevant. They may just be suggesting that IQ is irrelevant after a certain cutoff. Where that cutoff lies (to pursue medicine) is the true question, but from what WisNeuro said above, it is probably right around average.

The relative successes between individuals in the same field with differing IQs is another question. There may be another IQ cutoff required for achieving highest success that is separate from the cutoff required to enter the field. For example, a family medicine doctor in a rural region vs. an eminent surgery professor at a renowned private university. (That may not be a fair comparison because it compares two different specialties, but analogous comparisons can suit one's purpose).

Finally, I found it extremely interesting from that figure that income level is very loosely correlated with all the factors they probed.

Start with this:
Intelligence and socioeconomic success: A meta-analytic review of longitudinal research
Attaching the PDF file here may be a violation of copyright law, so I won't try it. Just PM me if the paywall is an issue.

Keep in mind that English is the author's second or third language.

tl,dr:


Mods: one screenshot of one figure, properly cited, for purposes of criticism on a non-profit website is protected as "fair use" by law.
See: 17 U.S. Code § 107 - Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

 

[Styrene]

Just to add to this since I've read so much about IQ tests - I became obsessed after being forced to take an IQ test in high school because I slacked off hardcore and almost failed my sophomore year.

-IQ is NOT irrelevant. It correlates moderately well with educational achievement and socioeconomic status. The test was invented to screen for cognitive disability. Lower IQ score is a good predictor of academic inability. I've really taken a deep look into this, and studies that demonstrate that IQ is "meaningless" or "very important" are poor studies with methodological/statistical issues.

-The most recent research demonstrates that genetics plays a significantly larger role in intelligence than does environment. Of the pertinent knowable environmental factors, degree of mother-child bond in early life correlates most strongly (many, many studies on this).

-A large study from the early 90s found 107 to be the 10th %ile for IQ among physicians and surgeons.

-From my own personal experience, IQ is certainly helpful in medical school, and I would say the verbal portion of the IQ is most correlated with medical school academic success.

-I scored 137-142 on the Stanford-Binet IQ test administered by a trained psychologist, and I scored a 10 on the Verbal Reasoning of the MCAT. I never took the new MCAT and so can't say anything about the CARS.

 

[Jared.mock]

I scored 137-142 on the Stanford-Binet IQ test administered by a trained psychologist, and I scored a 10 on the Verbal Reasoning of the MCAT. I never took the new MCAT and so can't say anything about the CARS.

Either you did not live up to your hype on the MCAT, or an average MCAT taker on the 80-85th percentile has an IQ of 140. The latter is extremely unlikely.

 

[jcorpsmanMD]

I had a Chief tell me one time that you have three meters: talent, luck, and hard work. You have to reach 100% somehow to get success, and your talent and luck meters are set. So whatever your deficit is, you have to make up for that with hard work.

Some people are really lucky or are talented enough that they don't have to work very hard, but most people are pretty evenly distributed. I don't really believe in luck, but it's an interesting idea anyway.

I once had a Chief tell me to stop being a.. uh.. you know

 

[tarheelpenner]

I got an IQ of 116 in the 4th grade. According to this website, I would make a great taxi driver, correctional officer, or truck driver. It's time for me to forget about medicine.

An IQ Score of 116 Means You Have High Average Intelligence

I have no idea what my IQ is, but I figured out the Einstein IQ test and now I feel really smart

 

[Styrene]

Either you did not live up to your hype on the MCAT, or an average MCAT taker on the 80-85th percentile has an IQ of 140. The latter is extremely unlikely.

The point is that MCAT and IQ measure different things. (I scored a 40 on the MCAT.)

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I once had a Chief tell me to stop being a.. uh.. you know

I've been called things by Chiefs the mere mention of would get me permabanned.

 

[jcorpsmanMD]

I've been called things by Chiefs the mere mention of would get me permabanned.

Nothing like getting roasted by a Chief. I've got skin thick as steel now..

 

[Styrene]

I think the majority of people are very similar as far as natural intelligence goes. In my life I can count on one hand the number of people I have met that are truly bright and perhaps genius---I.e. IQ north of 140 and getting into Good Will Hunting territory. So what helps is more the nurture than the nature aspect--I.e. We're all born with similar intelligence but who was read to as a child, went to good schools, parents were invested in their education etc come out on top.

For reference I was tested as a teenager by PhD psychologist due to suspicion of having ADD and my score was 117. A 117 IQ is better than 85.5% of test takers, I.e. My score is in top 14.5% of test takers. Check this site out to reference meaning of your score.

IQ test scores and percentile calculations. What is your rankings?

At least for me I had to work hard in undergrad to get good grades, but finished with just over a 3.8 GPA. MCAT was 31 with 5 weeks prep and highest score being in verbal. A 140 IQ is extremely rare and the online IQ tests are not valid at all. Keep in mind 130 or above IQ is roughly 2% of the population. But yet the majority of people that ever mention it all mysteriously seem to be at least a 130 IQ which is of course BS. In conclusion I feel as long as you have average level of intelligence you can succeed in medicine as long as you work hard! So don't sweat it...it's all up to you. If you want it bad enough, you can do it!!

Just for reference, not everyone. I have an IQ of 130+. Only major advantage it gives me in medical school is on standardized tests. I can always pass even if I don’t study (i.e. shelf exams).

 

[Styrene]

Oh, for sure. I just don't believe in random good or bad luck. I believe it all comes from God, but I don't like to thrust religion into a thread.

Lol

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Lol

Solid 16 month bump.

 

[Styrene]

Solid 16 month bump.

Ballin’

 

[Saifa]

hey everyone @Styrene is VERY smart

 

[ExcitatorySynapse]

This is tangentially related but most of the smartest physicians that I have met are also researchers and they often talk down about the clinical duties and compare it to grunt work. In fact, because I mostly interacted with these kinds of physicians, I didn't have a very positive image of medicine despite grinding through 3 years of the premed pre-reqs, and often considered switching to other fields.

However, once I was shadowing a doctor and he asked this patient to identify his belt as part of a test, and this kid, a late-preteen, couldn't name it and just called it "his front." After he left, the doctor asked me if I thought the kid was atypical and I said I was really surprised he couldn't identify a belt or a tie knot and the doctor just laughed at me and told me it was par for the course.

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

hey everyone @Styrene is VERY smart

Do you think he searched for "IQ" just so that he could brag about it? I'm trying to understand how someone with a 130 IQ could do something so dumb...

 

[gyngyn]

This thread has more than run its course.