IQ and Medicine

[anisole]

Hey all,

I am wondering what your thoughts are about the relationship between IQ and success as a physician/med student.

It's not hard to see that an IQ north of the mean is required to be a doctor, but is there an IQ+achievement correlation that continues in a 1:1 manner forever? Or does the meaningfulness of extra IQ points diminish after a certain threshold? If so, what is the threshold at which such returns diminish? And what would you consider the absolute threshold to pursue medicine?

I ask this because the MCAT is not a pure IQ test, as 3 of the sections can be studied for, while only the CARS section can be looked at as an estimate of intelligence (though one can train to take it well). Therefore, the MCAT is not the guardian that disallows average IQ-holders to enter medical school.

Anecdotally, I have a friend (now accepted DO) who has a ~3.9 uGPA, studied his butt off for the MCAT, and ended up scoring 128+ on all sections except for CARS (123). He admits that he has a 'very average IQ', but works very hard.

Speculate away!

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[NotASerialKiller]

Most of my classmates are *****s

 

[deleted781806]

IQ is a terrible metric of intelligence to begin with, so any correlation stemming from it would be equally flawed.

 

[anisole]

IQ is a terrible metric of intelligence to begin with, so any correlation stemming from it would be equally flawed.

I agree with the sentiment, though I believe this is akin to someone saying that the CARS is a terrible predictor and Canadian schools are in the wrong for only looking at CARS score. Though researchers at Cambridge University recently have been challenging the notion of a single-factor IQ (g), concluding that intelligence is likely a combination of reasoning, verbal ability and short term memory and not a single measure.

 

[mimelim]

Hey all,

I am wondering what your thoughts are about the relationship between IQ and success as a physician/med student.

It's not hard to see that an IQ north of the mean is required to be a doctor, but is there an IQ+achievement correlation that continues in a 1:1 manner forever? Or does the meaningfulness of extra IQ points diminish after a certain threshold? If so, what is the threshold at which such returns diminish? And what would you consider the absolute threshold to pursue medicine?

I ask this because the MCAT is not a pure IQ test, as 3 of the sections can be studied for, while only the CARS section can be looked at as an estimate of intelligence (though one can train to take it well). Therefore, the MCAT is not the guardian that disallows average IQ-holders to enter medical school.

Anecdotally, I have a friend (now accepted DO) who has a ~3.9 uGPA, studied his butt off for the MCAT, and ended up scoring 128+ on all sections except for CARS (123). He admits that he has a 'very average IQ', but works very hard.

Speculate away!

#1 IQ is a terrible measuring stick for virtually everything except pissing contests.
#2 Success in medicine is defined very differently, depending on who you talk to and what context you are talking about. This also shifts over time as people go through medical straining, even within a single individual. The multitude of measures of success and the diversity of goals makes any large scale, "success" questions not just impossible to answer, but also fatally flawed to even consider trying to answer. Smacks of simply asking the wrong question.
#3 "IQ north of the mean is required to be a doctor" - This is most definitely false. I could maybe see an argument that you need an IQ of 100+ in order to survive the training to become a doctor (ie get into medical school), but even that is stretching it.

 

[deleted781806]

I believe this is akin to someone saying that the CARS is a terrible predictor

That is not an equivalent comparison in the slightest.

 

[trs88]

I'm pretty dumb, but I study hard and am nice to my classmates. I seem to be doing okay.

 

[ewax]

Im dumb as hell, matched and about to graduate in 2 months. You don't have to have a high iq.

 

[deleted838145]

In my humble opinion, IQ is meaningless. Sure, people with high IQ may have an easier time understanding complex concepts that are often found in medical/pre-medical studies. But I don't think that all med school matriculants have "IQ north of the mean" as you say. You just need the drive.
From casually scrolling through SDN for countless hours, I have gathered enough information to deduce the 3 basic factors needed to get into med school:
1. A high GPA
This can be obtained by simply studying effectively, meaning using time wisely and putting in sufficient effort.

2. A high MCAT
If you have #1 in the bag, #2 will probably naturally follow (to an extent). Again, this is pretty much about efficient and effective studying.

3. Impressive ECs
I volunteered throughout my junior and senior years in HS in places like a hospital, nursing home, etc. This is not comparable to what I might do as a pre-med in UG, but really, you don't really need a high IQ for this stuff. Volunteer work in general just requires the right attitude and effort. Same goes for research, working, etc.

So in general success in medicine (and pretty much any other field) just requires the will and effort to get things done, along with making the right connections.

 

[colbgw02]

I don't know much about the science behind the IQ test, but I think some of you are selling intelligence short with respect to its importance in medicine. That isn't to say that you have to be brilliant, and I agree that hardwork is more important. Rather, I think we spend so much time around relatively intelligent people that we've lost sight of just how dumb many people are. There's a reason George Carlin said, "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."

 

[efle]

#3 "IQ north of the mean is required to be a doctor" - This is most definitely false. I could maybe see an argument that you need an IQ of 100+ in order to survive the training to become a doctor (ie get into medical school), but even that is stretching it.

lmao

 

[mmmcdowe]

social iq plays heavily into medicine as well.

 

[Jalby]

Is there a better test of intelligence than IQ out there?? I know I keep beating this dead horse over and over, but smarter people do better in medicine than not as smart people.

 

[mwsapphire]

^ I just * knew* you would do that.I literally saw the thread title and though " Oh ****. Here come the Jalby sdn flame wars"
I'm laughing in the library
XD

I think medicine is based of off a certain, "baseline" IQ, beyond which it's hard work. But i think that baseline is well above average.
Define "dumb" though. Below average, or just average?

 

[Lawpy]

Is there a better test of intelligence than IQ out there?? I know I keep beating this dead horse over and over, but smarter people do better in medicine than not as smart people.

It depends on what IQ test is being referenced here.

I think tests for general intelligence are better than IQ tests.

 

[Lawpy]

^ I just * knew* you would do that.I literally saw the thread title and though " Oh ****. Here come the Jalby sdn flame wars"
I'm laughing in the library
XD

I think medicine is based of off a certain, "baseline" IQ, beyond which it's hard work. But i think that baseline is well above average.
Define "dumb" though. Below average, or just average?

why are you in the library in the early morning on a Monday

 

[mwsapphire]

why are you in the library in the early morning on a Monday

I commute, had to drop brother at school.
I have class in a bit anyway.
I'm drinking this big hot chocolate with espresso shots
Delicious but its way too much liquid not a very effective caffeine delivery system.

 

[Jalby]

^ I just * knew* you would do that.I literally saw the thread title and though " Oh ****. Here come the Jalby sdn flame wars"

I wish SDN had a block feature.

 

[Lawpy]

I wish SDN had a block feature.

They do. It's called the Ignore function. Click on the username and select Ignore.

Also if you feel harassed, you can report the offending posts.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

They do. It's called the Ignore function. Click on the username and select Ignore.

Also if you feel harassed, you can report the offending posts.

I think he's being sardonic.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

IQ is **** in itself, and intelligence does not by itself get you into medical school, ever.

 

[kb1900]

Is there a better test of intelligence than IQ out there?? I know I keep beating this dead horse over and over, but smarter people do better in medicine than not as smart people.

This is why they added this stuff to the MCAT...Your post = why I had to learn psych/soc

 

[IsleyOfTheNorth]

Intelligence x Dedication = Success

You can decrease Intelligence if you make up for it in Dedication and vice-versa, but I think the equation is pretty solid.

 

[Astra]

Most of my classmates are *****s

r/Iamverysmart

 

[Endoxifen]

Intelligence x Dedication = Success

You can decrease Intelligence if you make up for it in Dedication and vice-versa, but I think the equation is pretty solid.

All you're missing is chutzpah and the equation is perfect.

 

[Promethean]

Is there a better test of intelligence than IQ out there?? I know I keep beating this dead horse over and over, but smarter people do better in medicine than not as smart people.

All things being equal, natural intellectual potential is better to have than not.

But a lot of very smart people struggle in medical school. We may have gotten away with crappy study skills up until med school. For me, any multiple choice test up until the MCAT was trivial. I could (and did) take many of them cold, with no exposure to the material, and ace it, just based on reasoning ability.

Now? I have a few classmates who are A students, who are definitely less bright than me, while I rocked Bs in preclinical. I would go so far as to say that a couple of those may have slightly below average IQs. But they work hard, put in the hours and hours of study, and it pays off.

I do study, too, but I slacked at first until I got a handle on how much work I needed to do, and how to be efficient. The very smart have to acquire study skills that other folks mastered a long time ago in order to even get this far.

As for the meaninglessness of IQ... Mine tested out ridiculously high when I was a kid... And yet I spent the first decade of my adult life in low wage dead end service industry jobs. IQ is not a reliable presictor of outcomes. It says nothing about life skills, opportunities, or motivations. I know at least as many high IQ folks in very low socioeconomic situations as I do doctors and medical students who can't solve simple logic puzzles in magazines, let alone join Mensa.

 

[altblue]

I don't know much about the science behind the IQ test, but I think some of you are selling intelligence short with respect to its importance in medicine. That isn't to say that you have to be brilliant, and I agree that hardwork is more important. Rather, I think we spend so much time around relatively intelligent people that we've lost sight of just how dumb many people are. There's a reason George Carlin said, "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."

+1

All things being equal, natural intellectual potential is better to have than not.

But a lot of very smart people struggle in medical school. We may have gotten away with crappy study skills up until med school. For me, any multiple choice test up until the MCAT was trivial. I could (and did) take many of them cold, with no exposure to the material, and ace it, just based on reasoning ability.

Now? I have a few classmates who are A students, who are definitely less bright than me, while I rocked Bs in preclinical. I would go so far as to say that a couple of those may have slightly below average IQs. But they work hard, put in the hours and hours of study, and it pays off.

I do study, too, but I slacked at first until I got a handle on how much work I needed to do, and how to be efficient. The very smart have to acquire study skills that other folks mastered a long time ago in order to even get this far.

As for the meaninglessness of IQ... Mine tested out ridiculously high when I was a kid... And yet I spent the first decade of my adult life in low wage dead end service industry jobs. IQ is not a reliable presictor of outcomes. It says nothing about life skills, opportunities, or motivations. I know at least as many high IQ folks in very low socioeconomic situations as I do doctors and medical students who can't solve simple logic puzzles in magazines, let alone join Mensa.

I agree with the idea of your post, that work ethic matters more than brains and IQ isn't everything, but I'm skeptical of your observation that some of your classmates are of slightly below average IQ. This would mean that people with slightly below average IQ could get in in appreciable numbers and of those some significant number could do well in med school.

From what I've seen, those I'd regard as slightly lower than average or even average intelligence often struggle with abstract reasoning in basic high school. level math/science. I have difficulty seeing them getting into med school, and I can't imagine how they'd handle memorizing and understanding complex biological systems in graduate level medicine. But maybe I overestimate their abilities? Who knows

I dunno, perhaps your classmates are at least somewhat intelligent and you need to give more credit? Maybe you're not assessing them well? Personally I tested well but there's little about the way I act that implies, "This guy is intelligent"

But those are just my 2 cents

 

[Jalby]

This is why they added this stuff to the MCAT...Your post = why I had to learn psych/soc

Ohhhh. I had not looked into what the new MCAT was until now.

 

[WisNeuro]

 

[DokterMom]

There's a reason George Carlin said, "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."

This I love. I will be using that one --

 

[mwsapphire]

^ I just * knew* you would do that.I literally saw the thread title and though " Oh ****. Here come the Jalby sdn flame wars"
I'm laughing in the library
XD

I think medicine is based of off a certain, "baseline" IQ, beyond which it's hard work. But i think that baseline is well above average.
Define "dumb" though. Below average, or just average?

OMG
Doktermom liked my post
My day is made

Edit: ( I'm also just glad somebody enjoys my salt/ makes me feel relevant)
( Jalby was just pissy b/c I was right)
tehe

 

[sullen-burger]

OMG
Doktermom liked my post
My day is made

Edit: ( I'm also just glad somebody enjoys my salt/ makes me feel relevant)
( Jalby was just pissy b/c I was right)
tehe

I remember this one. This is 'external versus internal reward seeking'. Thanks new soc/psych section!

(Insert non-threatening emoji to indicate joke aaaaand )

 

[mwsapphire]

I remember this one. This is 'external versus internal reward seeking'. Thanks new soc/psych section!

(Insert non-threatening emoji to indicate joke aaaaand )

I wasn't even originally seeking a reward , I say what I wanna say, but Doktermom liking my post was deff. a reward.
I'm a lady whose not afraid what's on my mind, just like Dr.Adams
*snippity snippity snap*

 

[Promethean]

+1

I agree with the idea of your post, that work ethic matters more than brains and IQ isn't everything, but I'm skeptical of your observation that some of your classmates are of slightly below average IQ. This would mean that people with slightly below average IQ could get in in appreciable numbers and of those some significant number could do well in med school.

It is true, I didn't administer formal IQ tests. But one can tell a lot about a person's intelligence from how they solve critical thinking problems. Some of my classmates are way smarter than me in that regard. Others? It is *possible* for someone to get into medical school who turns out to look pretty good on paper and be pleasant enough to get through an interview process, while not being able to reason their way out of a wet paper bag. Just outliers, certainly, but like 2 or 3 in a class of 270 is not incredible.

 

[CognitiveSci]

Intelligence and hard work go hand-in-hand. If Einstein hadn't used his time in the patent office to work on his theories, we would've never have known he was a genius; he probably would've been written off as one of the dumb people repeatedly mention so far.

However, I do think there is a baseline intelligence necessary for medicine. If everyone could be a doctor, it wouldn't be so hard to become one and they wouldn't be so well compensated. I kind of liken it to becoming an NBA player: one has to have a certain height and baseline athleticism to make it; those are factors largely out of one's control.

 

[Dagrimsta1]

Can someone give me a link to a reputable IQ test? I've never taken one...

 

[mwsapphire]

I don't think there are any online that don't cost money/ ask for your email or text message number so that they can spam you.

 

[WisNeuro]

Can someone give me a link to a reputable IQ test? I've never taken one...

WAIS and Stanford Binet are the most widely used standardized tests. If you want a quick figure, performance on things like the ACT, SAT, GRE, MCAT have rough IQ estimates, just with much wider CI's.

 

[aalamruad]

Can someone give me a link to a reputable IQ test? I've never taken one...

Just answer these 9 questions to find your IQ! Only 15% of people make it past the 4th question!

The Free IQ Test

 

[aalamruad]

Intelligence x Dedication x Efficiency = Success

You can decrease Intelligence if you make up for it in Dedication and vice-versa, but I think the equation is pretty solid.

FTFY

 

[Saifa]

This is why they added this stuff to the MCAT...Your post = why I had to learn psych/soc

This is funny because all I learned studying psychology is sociopaths in three piece suits conducted horrifically unethical experiments and got things wrong over and over again.

 

[altblue]

Can someone give me a link to a reputable IQ test? I've never taken one...

For a reputable test, you would have to have one administered by a psychologist in person.

 

[Dagrimsta1]

For a reputable test, you would have to have one administered by a psychologist in person.

Sounds expensive... I think I'll stick to being stupid and ignorant

 

[kb1900]

Ohhhh. I had not looked into what the new MCAT was until now.

This is funny because all I learned studying psychology is sociopaths in three piece suits conducted horrifically unethical experiments and got things wrong over and over again.

Bahahahha.

I can regurgitate probably 80%+ of Chem, bio, physics for the MCAT. I could probably do just as well as cars.

But the ONLY thing I remember from psych soc is the Stanford prison experiment and other unethical trials on people

 

[McDreamy123]

I think the majority of people are very similar as far as natural intelligence goes. In my life I can count on one hand the number of people I have met that are truly bright and perhaps genius---I.e. IQ north of 140 and getting into Good Will Hunting territory. So what helps is more the nurture than the nature aspect--I.e. We're all born with similar intelligence but who was read to as a child, went to good schools, parents were invested in their education etc come out on top.

For reference I was tested as a teenager by PhD psychologist due to suspicion of having ADD and my score was 117. A 117 IQ is better than 85.5% of test takers, I.e. My score is in top 14.5% of test takers. Check this site out to reference meaning of your score.

IQ test scores and percentile calculations. What is your rankings?

At least for me I had to work hard in undergrad to get good grades, but finished with just over a 3.8 GPA. MCAT was 31 with 5 weeks prep and highest score being in verbal. A 140 IQ is extremely rare and the online IQ tests are not valid at all. Keep in mind 130 or above IQ is roughly 2% of the population. But yet the majority of people that ever mention it all mysteriously seem to be at least a 130 IQ which is of course BS. In conclusion I feel as long as you have average level of intelligence you can succeed in medicine as long as you work hard! So don't sweat it...it's all up to you. If you want it bad enough, you can do it!!

 

[altblue]

Sounds expensive... I think I'll stick to being stupid and ignorant

Good on you for saving money lol. Normally the information isn't even especially useful to people either. How would it help them? They have plenty of evidence from their life for what they're capable of and what they're not, and by extension what their realistic goals should be.

I'd guess it's most helpful for assessing brain injuries, the need for disability benefits, and for helping children by filtering them into special needs or gifted programs (where it is used as supplement for other evidence...).

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Intelligence x Dedication = Success

You can decrease Intelligence if you make up for it in Dedication and vice-versa, but I think the equation is pretty solid.

I had a Chief tell me one time that you have three meters: talent, luck, and hard work. You have to reach 100% somehow to get success, and your talent and luck meters are set. So whatever your deficit is, you have to make up for that with hard work.

Some people are really lucky or are talented enough that they don't have to work very hard, but most people are pretty evenly distributed. I don't really believe in luck, but it's an interesting idea anyway.

 

[sullen-burger]

I had a Chief tell me one time that you have three meters: talent, luck, and hard work. You have to reach 100% somehow to get success, and your talent and luck meters are set. So whatever your deficit is, you have to make up for that with hard work.

Some people are really lucky or are talented enough that they don't have to work very hard, but most people are pretty evenly distributed. I don't really believe in luck, but it's an interesting idea anyway.

Oh I definitely believe in luck. I mean think about just the luck involved in being born here versus there, parents, community, if your secondary education teachers or mentors during school gave you motivation, any opportunities that come your way... I don't know if you'd call those things luck or fate but definitely they fall under "things you can't control."

 

[HopefulSlav]

I got an IQ of 116 in the 4th grade. According to this website, I would make a great taxi driver, correctional officer, or truck driver. It's time for me to forget about medicine.

An IQ Score of 116 Means You Have High Average Intelligence

 

[aalamruad]

I had a Chief tell me one time that you have three meters: talent, luck, and hard work. You have to reach 100% somehow to get success, and your talent and luck meters are set. So whatever your deficit is, you have to make up for that with hard work.

Some people are really lucky or are talented enough that they don't have to work very hard, but most people are pretty evenly distributed. I don't really believe in luck, but it's an interesting idea anyway.