I'm Getting Dismissed From School. Please read.

[Light at end of tunnel]

Here's the thing- you used multiple relatively minor illnesses as your reason for poor performance. They don't even write notes for a day off for a high school kid that gets mono at most offices, let alone provide am excuse for failing an entire block and then some of medical school. I know plenty of people that have tested with the flu or any other number of bugs- life doesn't stop just because you're sick. You've got to keep on moving forward. In residency, you're expected to function well regardless of your personal life and health, an expectation that you must hold yourself to as a physician. Your patients can't have a physician that can't perform because they've got a case of the flu or some diarrhea. That's what this dismissal comes down to. It's not like you had cancer, an HIV diagnosis, or some other crippling health event.

Georgetown psychiatry doc with renal cancer recently terminated.

Neurosurgery resident who contracted HIV during a procedure was terminated.

I'm sorry Mad Jack, this argument falls a bit flat.

A disease is a disease, perception of significance irrelevently notwithstanding.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Mad Jack]

Georgetown psychiatry doc with renal cancer recently terminated.

Neurosurgery resident who contracted HIV during a procedure was terminated.

I'm sorry Mad Jack, this argument falls a bit flat.

A disease is a disease, perception of significance irrelevently notwithstanding.

A disease is a disease is literally along the worst arguments I've ever seen on this forum. Shall we give everyone with a case of the common cold the same consideration as a person with cancer?

They offered the HIV positive surgeon other residency positions, which were refused. You don't have the right to be a surgeon with an infectious disease- given the rate of needle and scalpel injuries during surgery, that should be pretty obvious. Now, how a department approaches cancer depends on the type and how long you will be debilitated for. You can't be eliminated per federal law if you're inside 12 weeks of leave so long as you've been at your residency for at least a year. If you need longer than that, some programs will offer you a conditional leave of absence, while others will eliminate you. Cancer will generally, therefore, buy you 12 weeks. You try to bring a case of mono to court under FMLA and you'll get laughed out, so my point still stands.

Of course, we whine and complain, but my prior employer forced a woman to work through breast cancer and chemotherapy with her only permitted days off being ones for treatment, so the idea that medicine is where these problems stem from is unfounded. That's just the American work ethic- to most employers in the real world, you work unless you're literally dying, then you get time off so you can work some more. My general assessment of what illnesses are acceptable to workplace standards come from having actually, and this is shocking, worked for a living at several different employees for a decade. The adults that run these programs live in the real world, not some college fantasy land where taking time off is no big deal. They look at it as a job, not as some lackadaisical educational endeavor, and judge the behavior of students as they would judge their own coworkers.

 

[deleted480308]

A disease is a disease is literally along the worst arguments I've ever seen on this forum. Shall we give everyone with a case of the common cold the same consideration as a person with cancer?

They offered the HIV positive surgeon other residency positions, which were refused. You don't have the right to be a surgeon with an infectious disease- given the rate of needle and scalpel injuries during surgery, that should be pretty obvious. Now, how a department approaches cancer depends on the type and how long you will be debilitated for. You can't be eliminated per federal law if you're inside 12 weeks of leave so long as you've been at your residency for at least a year. If you need longer than that, some programs will offer you a conditional leave of absence, while others will eliminate you. Cancer will generally, therefore, buy you 12 weeks. You try to bring a case of mono to court under FMLA and you'll get laughed out, so my point still stands.

Of course, we whine and complain, but my prior employer forced a woman to work through breast cancer and chemotherapy with her only permitted days off being ones for treatment, so the idea that medicine is where these problems stem from is unfounded. That's just the American work ethic- to most employers in the real world, you work unless you're literally dying, then you get time off so you can work some more. My general assessment of what illnesses are acceptable to workplace standards come from having actually, and this is shocking, worked for a living at several different employees for a decade. The adults that run these programs live in the real world, not some college fantasy land where taking time off is no big deal. They look at it as a job, not as some lackadaisical educational endeavor, and judge the behavior of students as they would judge their own coworkers.

Having been in a few other fields I can confirm (at least in them) people may care about your well being but employers pay for output....you produce or you disappear, it's a VERY simple and cold transaction

 

[Psych_hopeful]

=/

To the OP: I hate to say this, but the way people would read your post would be that you aren't taking responsibility for your shortcomings as a student. Generally, people (which includes attendings/PDs) will see your story and say "well person X had something more difficult going on and he was able to perform....so you need to perform". That's just how the culture of medicine is.

I think what many people see with your story is similar to a doctor saying "I messed up the treatment for your depression and thats why your baby has these birth defects...but someone in my family developed leukemia." And that's where the problem is.

Heck even Conrad Fischer talks about it (start at 1:30):



This is why being efficient with your studies and prep is really important. Learning things and doing things ASAP is literally the lifeblood of one's medical career. Actually, it's the lifeblood of any career, tbh.

 

[Goro]

A disease is a disease is literally along the worst arguments I've ever seen on this forum. Shall we give everyone with a case of the common cold the same consideration as a person with cancer?

They offered the HIV positive surgeon other residency positions, which were refused. You don't have the right to be a surgeon with an infectious disease- given the rate of needle and scalpel injuries during surgery, that should be pretty obvious. Now, how a department approaches cancer depends on the type and how long you will be debilitated for. You can't be eliminated per federal law if you're inside 12 weeks of leave so long as you've been at your residency for at least a year. If you need longer than that, some programs will offer you a conditional leave of absence, while others will eliminate you. Cancer will generally, therefore, buy you 12 weeks. You try to bring a case of mono to court under FMLA and you'll get laughed out, so my point still stands.

Of course, we whine and complain, but my prior employer forced a woman to work through breast cancer and chemotherapy with her only permitted days off being ones for treatment, so the idea that medicine is where these problems stem from is unfounded. That's just the American work ethic- to most employers in the real world, you work unless you're literally dying, then you get time off so you can work some more. My general assessment of what illnesses are acceptable to workplace standards come from having actually, and this is shocking, worked for a living at several different employees for a decade. The adults that run these programs live in the real world, not some college fantasy land where taking time off is no big deal. They look at it as a job, not as some lackadaisical educational endeavor, and judge the behavior of students as they would judge their own coworkers.

This is why I'd like med school admissions requirements to include a year of employment.

 

[Psych_hopeful]

This is why I'd like med school admissions requirements to include a year of employment.

I dunno how medical schools can teach this, but I believe they need to find a way to convey to medical students that efficiency is everything. You cannot waste time not learning things. Every minute counts. Maybe its an overexaggeration and they probably already do emphasize that, but I dont think many medical students understand the significance of being efficient.

 

[Goro]

I dunno how medical schools can teach this, but I believe they need to find a way to convey to medical students that efficiency is everything. You cannot waste time not learning things. Every minute counts. Maybe its an overexaggeration and they probably already do emphasize that, but I dont think many medical students understand the significance of being efficient.

This is why we try to select for people who have both good grades and ECs. But poor time mgt skills is not the top cause of students doing poorly. Most students learn within a semester that what worked for UG doesn't work in med school, simply due to the sheer volume of material being taught.

Illness and outside life events (ie, poor coping skills) are the top career killers for students. When students are told "knock off your ECs and focus on med school" and they ignore you, then it becomes a motivation and attitude issue, not one of time mgt. I had one student who spent the entire OMSI still engaged her pre-medical school career of consulting. This student had to repeat the first year, and barely made it through 2nd year. But she made it through and is now an IM resident somewhere in the South.

 

[Psych_hopeful]

This is why we try to select for people who have both good grades and ECs. But poor time mgt skills is not the top cause of students doing poorly. Most students learn within a semester that what worked for UG doesn't work in med school, simply due to the sheer volume of material being taught.

Illness and outside life events (ie, poor coping skills) are the top career killers for students. When students are told "knock off your ECs and focus on med school" and they ignore you, then it becomes a motivation and attitude issue, not one of time mgt. I had one student who spent the entire OMSI still engaged her pre-medical school career of consulting. This student had to repeat the first year, and barely made it through 2nd year. But she made it through and is now an IM resident somewhere in the South.

When people above you are telling you something and you are at the bottom of the totem pole, you have to admit you know nothing and shut up. That's just part of the process. When you don't, welp, you might be a posting a thread like this =/

 

[Goro]

I had one student for whom his religious beliefs were very important. Fair enough. But this kid refused to study on Sunday AMs, and probably part of the PMs. Students persisted in stating that "I can study enough".

Said student failed out. We tried to help, but some people simply refuse help. At that point, you wonder if they really want to be here.

 

[Psych_hopeful]

I had one student for whom his religious beliefs were very important. Fair enough. But this kid refused to study on Sunday AMs, and probably part of the PMs. Students persisted in stating that "I can study enough".

Said student failed out. We tried to help, but some people simply refuse help. At that point, you wonder if they really want to be here.

They do. But they want to be there on THEIR terms. Just like how the obese person wants to lose weight while eating whatever junk they are eating and not making any lifestyle changes. =/

It doesn't work like that. That's what people need to realize.

 

[bannie22]

Based on the information you provided its clearly not very fair that you are being dismissed. But life unfortunately is never fair. Especially in medicine. I dont think you can win against your school.
It would have been better had you taken the grovelling approach.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Based on the information you provided its clearly not very fair that you are being dismissed. But life unfortunately is never fair. Especially in medicine. I dont think you can win against your school.
It would have been better had you taken the grovelling approach.

What do you mean by grovelling?

 

[bannie22]

What do you mean by grovelling?

the definition of grovelling

begging

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

the definition of grovelling

begging

Damn. Perfect description of medical hierarchy.

I owe you one.

 

[drVia]

Hi - long (obviously), but if you have any kind of experience or know somebody who knows somebody that has experience with this kind of stuff, please take a few minutes to read what I've written below.

I go to a DO school. Last year, I started school w/ class of 2019. I started feeling sick at the end of block 1, and had huge problems w/ getting up to go to class and would often ask for extensions on assignments, bc of inability to complete them - turns out, I had mono. I went on medical leave at middle of block 2, but wasn't diagnosed until April of 2016, since the mono was caused by CMV and all my docs were looking at epstein-barr, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, etc. I requested testing for CMV (PCR & serum) and both came back positive. When I was leaving school, I was obviously an emotional wreck, since I didn't know what was wrong with me but just felt overall horrible.

Flash forward to now: I was allowed to start back to school w/ the class of 2020, but only after signing a contract saying that I wouldn't be tardy to anything, miss anything, and that required me to be in counseling throughout the year (since the administrators saw me upset, crying, and generally being a sloth in the process of going on medical leave). I was also put on academic probation from 2015, and wasn't allowed to get off of it despite starting out a new year. Basically, I had to sign a "learning agreement" because my behavior while I was sick wasn't acceptable healthy medical school student behavior. I signed it, because I wanted to be back in school and didn't challenge any of the points in the contract.

I did really well in Block 1 of this year, but had to remediate a class in Block 2 & 3, which per the handbook, is totally allowed and I passed each class and was ready to tackle block 4.

Block 4 started out rough, because stuff happens, I had gotten a vicious stomach bug, stayed in the ER overnight for suspected appendicitis, and was diagnosed with a paralytic ileus. It put me out, and it was no fun, obviously. Basically I missed a week of school because of it and it put me REALLY far behind, farther behind than what I realized until the second test of cardiopulm physiology.

Here's the rub: when I realized I was behind and having trouble catching up, I emailed our academic success department about scheduling a meeting so that I could nail down a study plan and get caught up. I also emailed our medical education department several times about discussing grades and additional more boring subjects, to which I received no response. I actually had to go into the med ed office to see if they were even receiving my emails, to which they said yes, but they receive so many, that basically the one I sent got sent down to the bottom of their list to reply to. :O
I reached out for help from classmates, brought my grades up from the mid sixties to upper nineties, adjusted my study habits, etc. etc. but in the end, it wasn't enough to bring 3 of my grades up from the mid sixties, and 2 from the high sixties. Regarding how I brought my grades up, in my appeal, I had two fellow students write me letters of support, one from my tutor and one from the class president.

The school wants to dismiss me, based on what they said were academic reasons (understandable), but they also cited the absences from LAST year from when I was sick w/ mono as a reason for dismissal, along with my MCAT score and undergrad science GPA. In the letter that outlines why I am being dismissed, it clearly states that "you are being dismissed purely for academic reasons." I am unsure of how my MCAT score, absences from being sick, are even worth adding in to the letter if it's purely because of my academic performance *while* in medical school. Also, the school let me in with my MCAT score and undergrad GPA, and now they're holding it against me? I get they are trying to build a case that I am academically incompetent, but they ARE the ones that let me in...

In the dismissal letter, they also stated that I failed a course that I didn't fail (I brought this to their attention, and they rescinded it and said they were misinformed). This makes me raise an eyebrow - they had written my dismissal letter based on faulty information - how the heck were they misinformed about me failing a class? The class they said I failed, I actually did really, really well in.

They also didn't bother addressing the information that I provided about how I continuously reached out to the administration put in place to help students and how they flat out just didn't respond. I seriously believe the school is holding a grudge from me getting sick last year and how I was a pretty crappy student when I was sick - I know it sounds crazy, but the fact that I had to broadcast on social media to my peers that I needed a tutor this past block (bc the school wasn't helping), seems a bit absurd, too. I have gotten the feeling that administration is annoyed by me from the moment I got back from medical leave.

I know that I am capable of succeeding as a student and that getting mono last year was super inconvenient for everyone, but I also know that starting out this past block getting behind and scoring poorly - but taking responsibility for it and bringing my grades up from, in one class, a 43 to a 95 (!), shows that I am driven and will do whatever it takes to make sure that I am able to learn the material. I laid out a study and remediation plan in my appeal letter and let them know what I did differently to bring my grade up from absolutely atrocious to the mid-nineties.

I guess I just wanna know what you guys think, because I take issue with a) being dismissed in part because of absences that I earned (which, by the way, were in the allotted amount allowed to be missed) when I wasn't able to really even get out of bed - and have documentation from four doctors that I had mono - these were all given to the school b) dismissed, in part, when I was obviously an "at risk" student, but even in light of asking for help from appropriate people, I didn't even receive a response. I get that my grades at the beginning of this past block were horrible, and if that were the sole reason, it would be a bit more understandable, but since there seems to be more to it than that, I just want insight.

TL;DR: I know this sucks, and yes, I know that medical school is ONLY FOR THE TOUGH AND THE TOUGH ONLY (a bit of sarcasm; I do know that it takes tough-minded and strong willed peeps), but I know that I have shown the school that I am dedicated to the profession AND am capable of bringing my grades up, even when getting behind (I also revamped my study techniques and have now obviously determined what I need to look out for in regards to getting behind in the first place) - and even when the resources in place don't respond to emails inquiring about meeting for help. What would you guys do? I have appealed to the dean, but his response genuinely leads me to believe that he, at most, skimmed my appeal.

Has anyone ever won an appeal based on similar information? Do you have any words of wisdom? One of my friends has told me to "lawyer up" since, to them, it seems as if the school admin just flat out doesn't like me. You guys, I have read similar threads and know that most of the time the info isn't as convoluted as what I provided, so hopefully you all have some insight into the nuance of what I'm saying.

THANKS!

Hi there!
I am forwarding you a reply a wrote in another thread... My situation resembles yours... and I have sough help from a lawyer, however med schools are protected by the law and as long as they follow the rules on the student handbook (which has been written by a team of excellent and highly qualified lawyers), there is nothing you can do. You can try appealing but in many cases, they deny it....
please do not give up! you may want to consider transferring to another school perhaps...(i.e: the following reply)



Dear ebvb21,

I am so sorry this happened to you. I feel your pain as I have just been dismissed from Ross because of failure to complete all requirements for graduation within the 7 year period. I had done all my rotations, passed step1 and step2 cs, and the two canadian board exams required for residency application. The only requirement i was missing was passing step 2 ck. I too, like many of our peers suffer from depression, text taking anxiety and ADD, for many years now and this was known by the school when they admitted me...they promised review programs for the boards which were not made available.

Knowing my setbacks I did seek help and guidance from the school and faculty but nothing ever came out of it. I can play the victim and feel ashamed and sorry for myself : I was dismissed at the exact time i became eligible to retake the exam, after 7 years of harsh strenuous work and compromise, not mentioning the half a million dollar debt that I have accumulated....


This is what my dean wrote to me on my final dismissal letter:

"I hope you do not let this detour keep you from achieving your goal of helping people in need."


I feel cheated but mostly discussed at the medical education system.

The reality is that it is a business, and if you do not fit in the mold or you bring down their statistics, they will get rid of you like a peace of garbage, no matter the reason or disability.

You can choose to fight it with a lawyer (like I did) but you will end up losing your time and money because these institutions have the law backing them up...


So after these last couple of weeks of looking for answers on the internet and reaching out to friends and family, here is what I have concluded and done:


1-Many people will tell you, with your own good in mind, that you should consider an alternative career....and you should!

2-....but don't get me wrong, that does not mean that you must quit trying to be a doctor.

After lots of soul searching, I came to the conclusion that medicine is my destiny and decided that i would give myself another try at taking step 2 ck. I looked on the internet and did not find much about options available for those in similar situations to ours...

 

[msuspartans]

TBH people in this forum are giving their honest opinion and very useful information but they are just opinions. Many people will PM you as they have with me. Those people that actually went thru a hardship actually knows the necessary steps of how to fight and tackle this miserable time of our lives. Right now, seek help and make sure you're ok. I wasn't and I'm pretty sure anyone that was smart enough to get accepted into medical school in the states are not the average bum. We had high expectations from our family's, friends and most importantly ourselves. Take a small break and just relax. Life goes on, if you want to continue medicine and work extremely hard there are options and idc what other people here are telling you. You're not the first nor the last person to get dismissed and end up getting matched later. If you want another career, the doors are open. Just prepare for the interview and application and don't lie. Be confident honest and acknowledge your mistake. We still have a future and hopefully we can succeed and help as many people as we can.

 

[casey27]

Didn't read all the replies, but I was dismissed, hired a very well respected employment lawyer, and got right back in. As soon as I let them know I had a lawyer things moved very quickly with the appeal process. Good luck

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Didn't read all the replies, but I was dismissed, hired a very well respected employment lawyer, and got right back in. As soon as I let them know I had a lawyer things moved very quickly with the appeal process. Good luck

But you weren't employed by the med school?

 

[Goro]

Didn't read all the replies, but I was dismissed, hired a very well respected employment lawyer, and got right back in. As soon as I let them know I had a lawyer things moved very quickly with the appeal process. Good luck

Did the school not follow its policies?

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Didn't read all the replies, but I was dismissed, hired a very well respected employment lawyer, and got right back in. As soon as I let them know I had a lawyer things moved very quickly with the appeal process. Good luck

As I've said before, everyone plays by the rules when they finally have to.

Congrats on your success, and on finding a lawyer who knew the game (which is all it really is).

 

[Blunt Dissection]

Didn't read all the replies, but I was dismissed, hired a very well respected employment lawyer, and got right back in. As soon as I let them know I had a lawyer things moved very quickly with the appeal process. Good luck

While I'm glad for your success in getting things resolved and getting back in, I would not give your school any reason to draw attention to you. It is not unreasonable for them to make a notice on any Dean's letter that may go out stating that you attempted to lawyer up and from what I know, the moment any residency program hears about a student lawyering up, it's a major red flag.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I have just been dismissed from Ross

This is not a similar situation, where you went from a Carib school to a worse carib school.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Hi there!
I am forwarding you a reply a wrote in another thread... My situation resembles yours... and I have sough help from a lawyer, however med schools are protected by the law and as long as they follow the rules on the student handbook (which has been written by a team of excellent and highly qualified lawyers), there is nothing you can do. You can try appealing but in many cases, they deny it....
please do not give up! you may want to consider transferring to another school perhaps...(i.e: the following reply)



Dear ebvb21,

I am so sorry this happened to you. I feel your pain as I have just been dismissed from Ross because of failure to complete all requirements for graduation within the 7 year period. I had done all my rotations, passed step1 and step2 cs, and the two canadian board exams required for residency application. The only requirement i was missing was passing step 2 ck. I too, like many of our peers suffer from depression, text taking anxiety and ADD, for many years now and this was known by the school when they admitted me...they promised review programs for the boards which were not made available.

Knowing my setbacks I did seek help and guidance from the school and faculty but nothing ever came out of it. I can play the victim and feel ashamed and sorry for myself : I was dismissed at the exact time i became eligible to retake the exam, after 7 years of harsh strenuous work and compromise, not mentioning the half a million dollar debt that I have accumulated....


This is what my dean wrote to me on my final dismissal letter:

"I hope you do not let this detour keep you from achieving your goal of helping people in need."


I feel cheated but mostly discussed at the medical education system.

The reality is that it is a business, and if you do not fit in the mold or you bring down their statistics, they will get rid of you like a peace of garbage, no matter the reason or disability.

You can choose to fight it with a lawyer (like I did) but you will end up losing your time and money because these institutions have the law backing them up...


So after these last couple of weeks of looking for answers on the internet and reaching out to friends and family, here is what I have concluded and done:


1-Many people will tell you, with your own good in mind, that you should consider an alternative career....and you should!

2-....but don't get me wrong, that does not mean that you must quit trying to be a doctor.

After lots of soul searching, I came to the conclusion that medicine is my destiny and decided that i would give myself another try at taking step 2 ck. I looked on the internet and did not find much about options available for those in similar situations to ours...

However, after reaching out to some of my mentors, I found an accredited medical school with offices in Atlanta that has a program for step prep and that will sponsor me for taking CK. I have registered and supposed to start in September. The fee for the semester is a fraction of the price of a semester at ross and this board review will be in small classes and more personalized instruction...

This has given me a feeling hope that there might be some light at the end of the tunnel. This is why I wanted to share this with you as it may be something you would like to consider as well...


Know that there are options out there and please do not let yourself be discouraged by the negative comments of some of our peers.


Hoping you feel a little less alone in your situation and wishing you all the best!


Feel free to PM me if you want some more info.


sincerely,

Dr Via

So you are now targeting DO students eh. I've seen you in the Caribbean forums. Its funny how you won't name the school you are talking about, but talk about said school with offices in Atlanta.

 

[drVia]

So you are now targeting DO students eh. I've seen you in the Caribbean forums. Its funny how you won't name the school you are talking about, but talk about said school with offices in Atlanta.

I do not know what you are talking about .....

 

[IslandStyle808]

I do not know what you are talking about .....

I'll point you to it. My question to you is "what is the name of this school you are referring to?"

Dear ebvb21,
I am so sorry this happened to you. I feel your pain as I have just been dismissed from Ross because of failure to complete all requirements for graduation within the 7 year period. I had done all my rotations, passed step1 and step2 cs, and the two canadian board exams required for residency application. The only requirement i was missing was passing step 2 ck. I too, like many of our peers suffer from depression, text taking anxiety and ADD, for many years now and this was known by the school when they admitted me...they promised review programs for the boards which were not made available.
Knowing my setbacks I did seek help and guidance from the school and faculty but nothing ever came out of it. I can play the victim and feel ashamed and sorry for myself : I was dismissed at the exact time i became eligible to retake the exam, after 7 years of harsh strenuous work and compromise, not mentioning the half a million dollar debt that I have accumulated....

This is what my dean wrote to me on my final dismissal letter:
"I hope you do not let this detour keep you from achieving your goal of helping people in need."

I feel cheated but mostly discussed at the medical education system.
The reality is that it is a business, and if you do not fit in the mold or you bring down their statistics, they will get rid of you like a peace of garbage, no matter the reason or disability.
You can choose to fight it with a lawyer (like I did) but you will end up losing your time and money because these institutions have the law backing them up...

So after these last couple of weeks of looking for answers on the internet and reaching out to friends and family, here is what I have concluded and done:

Many people will tell you, with your own good in mind, that you should consider an alternative career....and you should!
....but don't get me wrong, that does not mean that you must quit trying to become a doctor! I think it is important however to really think about your motives of wanting to be a physician and determine if this is really for you.

After lots of soul searching, I came to the conclusion that medicine is my destiny and decided that i would give myself another try at taking step 2 ck. I looked on the internet and did not find much about options available for those in similar situations to ours...
However, after reaching out to some of my mentors, I found an accredited medical school with offices in the US that has a program for step prep and that will sponsor me for taking CK. I have registered and supposed to start in September. The fee for the semester is a fraction of the price of a semester at ross and this board review will be in small classes and more personalized instruction...
This has given me a feeling hope that there might be some light at the end of the tunnel. This is why I wanted to share this with you as it may be something you would like to consider as well...

Know that there are options out there and please do not let yourself be discouraged by the negative comments of some of our peers.

Hoping you feel a little less alone in your situation and wishing you all the best!

Feel free to PM me if you want some more info.

sincerely,
Dr Via

 

[drVia]

I meant, what did you mean by "targeting" DO student?
Its crazy how twisted that sounds. All i am doing is sharing my experience with others that may find themselves in a similar situation while at the same time making sure that I am not being misunderstood as trying to advertise for anybody... Its incredible how some people feel"targeted" when in fact, all i was suggesting is that there are options out there!
Do you find yourself in a similar situation and want to discuss it?
if so, i would gladly share my experience with you and perhaps it can be informative/helpful.
if not , why do you bother? don't you have better things to do?

sincerely,

dr via

 

[IslandStyle808]

I meant, what did you mean by "targeting" DO student?
Its crazy how twisted that sounds. All i am doing is sharing my experience with others that may find themselves in a similar situation while at the same time making sure that I am not being misunderstood as trying to advertise for anybody... Its incredible how some people feel"targeted" when in fact, all i was suggesting is that there are options out there!
Do you find yourself in a similar situation and want to discuss it?
if so, i would gladly share my experience with you and perhaps it can be informative/helpful.
if not , why do you bother? don't you have better things to do?

sincerely,

dr via

I also am on this forum to help people. When I see post ambiguous like yours makes me worry about the newer members on this forum. You have to realize that medicine is not an easy road. US Medical schools are general difficult to get into, however, once you are in and you work hard the school ensures that you make it through and then match into residency (well some schools more than others I'll admit). The LCME and AOA are accrediting bodies that make sure schools are doing their best to graduate as many students as possible.

However, this isn't the case with the Caribbean. They get the left overs from all those who couldn't match into an LCME or AOA accredited school. The big four have large attrition rates between 15-30% that we cannot even confirm with any data. Now see, you can find the data for US MD and US DO match rates and placement rates. However, there only limited data on match rates coming from the Caribbean and the only trusted source the NRMP reports.

My point, the big 4 are the few schools that actually has data on match rates. Now you want OP to go to a school that is most likely not listed on the NRMP report and isn't in the big four. This is a dangerous and risky road that no one should tread. How many people like yourself went to that school, and actually made it out and in a categorical position in residency? 50%, 20%, 5%. We have no objective data and this is a dangerous road even for the dismissed who want to do medicine again.

You understand what I mean. You maybe hurting OP and other people like them by pushing them to take this risk and end up in further catastrophic debt. It would be much kinder to tell them to cut their losses and look at other fields like podiatry, dentistry, or NP which are fields where OP has a chance of entering.

I taking my time out of my day, to protect those who are misinformed about these alternative routes and make sure they go in the right direction!

 

[msuspartans]

I have to agree with dr via and respectfully disagree with island. Nobody will ever know the misfortune of a dismissed medical student unless they have been thru it themselves or has guided them to success. Medicine has a disgusting culture and once you're out it will take lots of years, money and effort to get back in successfully. Compared to other doctorate degrees such as PharmD and DDS, whom I know personally, transferred a portion of their completed credits to other US programs in their respected field after being dismissed. Medicine is tough and you're held to a high standard, but even great US medical schools dismiss their students. I personally know 2 US MD students in top programs that just got dismissed in their 3rd and 4th year due to personal issues (That led to academic issues). They both transferred to Caribbean programs that are not the top 4 for their own reasons. I decided not to for my own reasons but I completely understand why they have went that route. No other US school would accept them even though they have taken some time off to make sure they're back and ready. These students had great grades and scores and are amazing individuals that had to go thru tough times. They are learning from their experience and became stronger. They know they will have a hard time getting matched but they're going to try and if they don't life will go on. A dismissed medical student aren't your typical 18 y/o high school graduate. They can make decisions for themselves and if someone like dr via can share their experience they should be acknowledged. All he said was that there are options out there and don't let yourself be discouraged (which is true). I had many successful resident physicians contact me to continue medicine and shared their stories with me personally that would be attacked if they posted here. All that I am trying to say is that if people are here to share some advise that have been thru what the OP is going thru, they shouldn't be shamed from people that don't agree with their "direction". Anyways, I'm not going to reply to anyone that doesn't agree with me but if anyone needs advice feel free to PM me as well.

 

[msuspartans]

If this dr via is a scam, so be it lol. As long as he's spreading kind words who cares lol. Anyone who's dismissed has a tough road ahead but it doesn't mean your life is over and has to start from scratch. We just have to continue working hard and learn from our past. Good luck y'all.

 

[drVia]

If this dr via is a scam, so be it lol. As long as he's spreading kind words who cares lol. Anyone who's dismissed has a tough road ahead but it doesn't mean your life is over and has to start from scratch. We just have to continue working hard and learn from our past. Good luck y'all.

Thank you for saying this. I am definitely not a scam and I am just sharing my experience. The reality is that medical school stats are biased and falsified because they do not represent the reality. Med schools have strict rules so that students that do not fit in their criteria for good stats are weeded out.
I have Nothing against the big 4 schools, in fact I think that hey provide a chance to people who may have the ability to become great doctors, yet do not fit in the mold, including myself.
I know many people who have graduated from the big 4 and from other schools in the Caribbean who have become practicing physicians with great careers so I am willing to take the chance to become one of those.

Nothing in life is guaranteed. With half a million dollars of debt, i am wiling to invest a little more to validate all the hard work that I have done so far!

I am not saying that everybody should think like me. I am just saying that there are options out there!

sincerely,
VIA

If this dr via is a scam, so be it lol. As long as he's spreading kind words who cares lol. Anyone who's dismissed has a tough road ahead but it doesn't mean your life is over and has to start from scratch. We just have to continue working hard and learn from our past. Good luck y'all.

 

[bollocks1234]

Hey everyone.

This is an update. Sorry I have been MIA - I talked to the Dean and he offered me the opportunity to withdrawal instead of be dismissed. After lots of deliberation, I took it.

(Also, I've been AWOL bc when it rains it pours...after I withdrew my significant other dumped me after 2 years...I think I must be paying for crimes committed in a past life...)

ANYways, moving on. I tried to fight to stay in, and get second chances, but they weren't having it. I am thinking that I DID get in my own way in this process of school...many of you pointed out that when I was sick that I didn't handle myself professionally. I agree. I feel like I need to address some of these issues, like why it was difficult for me to remain composed in that given situation, how to be more conscientious in the face of adversity. I've been thinking that before I retry medical school, I should probably go see a counselor and figure out how to cope with unexpected life changes - such as illness, break-ups, whatever...without shutting down and letting it totally wreck my attempts to succeed. What do you guys think?

I still want to be a doctor. I still want to go to medical school. I just don't want to go again and have this same situation happen. Some of my colleagues are telling me that I should quickly apply to the Caribbean to get in come January. I honestly feel like it's a rush and scramble to do that, and want to find a job to support myself before going back into the grueling environment and possibly messing up again. I'm currently teaching English to kids in China via the web, but this involves not leaving the house...and that's just not really what I think I can do for the next however long. It's a good placeholder to make money now, though. Your thoughts are appreciated!

So here are some questions:
1) Apply to Caribbean ASAP - what do you all think?
2) Apply for a job in medical field (or medical non-profit sector - I have NP experience)...but how would I put on my resume that I was in medical school and withdrew - and that's what I've been doing for the past two years?
2a) This is said with the assumption that I would retake the MCAT and get a better score - since my first one was "eh" at best.
3) Scrap it all and become a clinical psychologist, or some other healthcare professional...

Seriously, guys - you all rock and your feedback has been invaluable.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

If this dr via is a scam, so be it lol. As long as he's spreading kind words who cares lol

Because those kind words will ruin lives, it's that simple. People deserve the truth, no matter how hard it is, because only with that knowledge can they actually move on and create a good plan of action.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Hey everyone.

This is an update. Sorry I have been MIA - I talked to the Dean and he offered me the opportunity to withdrawal instead of be dismissed. After lots of deliberation, I took it.

(Also, I've been AWOL bc when it rains it pours...after I withdrew my significant other dumped me after 2 years...I think I must be paying for crimes committed in a past life...)

ANYways, moving on. I tried to fight to stay in, and get second chances, but they weren't having it. I am thinking that I DID get in my own way in this process of school...many of you pointed out that when I was sick that I didn't handle myself professionally. I agree. I feel like I need to address some of these issues, like why it was difficult for me to remain composed in that given situation, how to be more conscientious in the face of adversity. I've been thinking that before I retry medical school, I should probably go see a counselor and figure out how to cope with unexpected life changes - such as illness, break-ups, whatever...without shutting down and letting it totally wreck my attempts to succeed. What do you guys think?

I still want to be a doctor. I still want to go to medical school. I just don't want to go again and have this same situation happen. Some of my colleagues are telling me that I should quickly apply to the Caribbean to get in come January. I honestly feel like it's a rush and scramble to do that, and want to find a job to support myself before going back into the grueling environment and possibly messing up again. I'm currently teaching English to kids in China via the web, but this involves not leaving the house...and that's just not really what I think I can do for the next however long. It's a good placeholder to make money now, though. Your thoughts are appreciated!

So here are some questions:
1) Apply to Caribbean ASAP - what do you all think?
2) Apply for a job in medical field (or medical non-profit sector - I have NP experience)...but how would I put on my resume that I was in medical school and withdrew - and that's what I've been doing for the past two years?
2a) This is said with the assumption that I would retake the MCAT and get a better score - since my first one was "eh" at best.
3) Scrap it all and become a clinical psychologist, or some other healthcare professional...

Seriously, guys - you all rock and your feedback has been invaluable.

Edit: I just reread this and I really wanted to say that I am so sorry about your significant other, that is a terrible indictment on him/her, and a burden to you. My condolences on that front, cause I know it sucks. And I wanted to commend you on keeping the positive outlook, that will help you go far!

Addressing the options I think are best. 1 and 3 are not good, carribbean for obvious reasons, and clinical psychology d/t job outlook/limited practice. IMO you will go into debt waste lots of time, make little money and have no scope of practice as a clinical psychologist. Its pretty much the one of the worst degree choice monetarily outside of liberal arts, and especially for someone who was in medical school, I think you would have regret/envy. So with that in mind, I think you should get a job first and foremost, so will address that first.

You have to tell jobs what you have been doing for the last two years if you want one, but you don't have to be specific. Example of bad: 'I was in medical school and I withdrew.' Bad choice, I wouldn't even acknowledge it was medical school specifically when you are trying to get a job, just say it was a graduate health science degree or whatever general term you feel comfortable with (I believe it would be to many people who weren't in medical school a sign of poor judgement to 'quit,' mostly cause they have no idea what medical school is like). You really don't want to have to explain that.

People who haven't been in medical school by and large have no clue why anyone would quit, or they assume you failed out but are lying. And nobody wants to hire the F student. When you say I was doing a graduates health science degree and just wasn't sure if it was really worth it, people understand. Not encouraging lying, but your potential employer just doesn't need to know what degree specifically.

Better way to say: 'I was in graduate school but I wasn't feeling sure about my degree. While I am definitely interested in advancing and improving my life I am not certain that I gave work enough of a chance. I just want to get back to work for a couple years, and then maybe I will think about school later.'

I am sure some will have better variants of the above quotes, so wait for that. Also presenting it the way I tried to above lets them know that you might be interested in advancing later and are career oriented, but your not looking at school at this moment. The nice thing about saying its a graduate degree instead of medical, is when they ask you what it was in, you say health related. And if they follow up were you trying to go premed or something, you can say that you did have some interest in becoming a doctor, but your just not sure its worth it at the moment. Just based on your answer you go from an guy that's assumed to have flunked out of medical school/ has really poor judgement, to a guy who was trying to get into medical school and became disillusioned (and that's only if they followed up a lot). One of those people I feel a lot better about hiring.

Now the answer to 2a depends on the terms of your withdraw: If it is listed as withdraw, and NOT withdraw due to failing, then I think your narrative should focus on a. health difficulties that are resolvable: avoid chronic mental health issues (sorry there's still a bias), and focus on diseases that were cured and major life events that won't realistically happen again. And b. the other option is to focus on immaturity and talk about how you needed some time to experience the world and grow up. In this case, retaking the MCAT, doing better, and then talking about your new healthcare job experience should be enough to sooth the suspicions of the admissions committee.

If you are listed as Withdraw d/t failing, I think you pretty much need to do a post bacc or some equivalent to prove your academic worth, AND you need a better MCAT. Then follow the same formula as previous paragraph and someone will probably bite. I think going from a dismissal to a withdraw is a pretty big win for you, so good on that. I do not think you should take shortcuts to try and get back in. Going to the Carribbean would be a mistake, just do it right, and maybe you can do better than your previous school, who knows, even admissions like a good redemptive story.

 

[hallowmann]

Hey everyone.

This is an update. Sorry I have been MIA - I talked to the Dean and he offered me the opportunity to withdrawal instead of be dismissed. After lots of deliberation, I took it.

(Also, I've been AWOL bc when it rains it pours...after I withdrew my significant other dumped me after 2 years...I think I must be paying for crimes committed in a past life...)

ANYways, moving on. I tried to fight to stay in, and get second chances, but they weren't having it. I am thinking that I DID get in my own way in this process of school...many of you pointed out that when I was sick that I didn't handle myself professionally. I agree. I feel like I need to address some of these issues, like why it was difficult for me to remain composed in that given situation, how to be more conscientious in the face of adversity. I've been thinking that before I retry medical school, I should probably go see a counselor and figure out how to cope with unexpected life changes - such as illness, break-ups, whatever...without shutting down and letting it totally wreck my attempts to succeed. What do you guys think?

I still want to be a doctor. I still want to go to medical school. I just don't want to go again and have this same situation happen. Some of my colleagues are telling me that I should quickly apply to the Caribbean to get in come January. I honestly feel like it's a rush and scramble to do that, and want to find a job to support myself before going back into the grueling environment and possibly messing up again. I'm currently teaching English to kids in China via the web, but this involves not leaving the house...and that's just not really what I think I can do for the next however long. It's a good placeholder to make money now, though. Your thoughts are appreciated!

So here are some questions:
1) Apply to Caribbean ASAP - what do you all think?
2) Apply for a job in medical field (or medical non-profit sector - I have NP experience)...but how would I put on my resume that I was in medical school and withdrew - and that's what I've been doing for the past two years?
2a) This is said with the assumption that I would retake the MCAT and get a better score - since my first one was "eh" at best.
3) Scrap it all and become a clinical psychologist, or some other healthcare professional...

Seriously, guys - you all rock and your feedback has been invaluable.

First off, I'm glad you are digging deeper and really taking a look at what happened in med school. I also think its a great idea to see a counselor and develop better coping skills to deal with life events. You need to take care of yourself first, and I'm glad you're taking those steps.

As for your options. I would absolutely recommend against #1. I agree with BorntobeDO that you should seek out some form of employment right now while you figure things out (e.g. like whether or not you want to continue pursuing medicine vs. another healthcare career vs. other career altogether). Also agree that you can be vague in how you address it on your resume. While I don't think you'll be blacklisted or viewed as an idiot for admitting that you withdrew from med school (you'd be surprised how many people there are that started or even finished med school and aren't working as doctors), it would probably help not having to answer the more questions saying med school would invite. Go with withdrew from graduate degree because of health/being unsure if it was the right degree for you.

I think its premature to scrap anything, and I actually don't think being a clinical psychologist is a terrible career. All careers have pros and cons, and trust medicine has plenty. Money may not be one of them, but there are plenty of others.

In any case, I think its too early to "scrap" anything. First you need to take care of yourself mentally, emotionally and physically, then you need to figure out what you want in a career, and then a game plan for how to get there. It might take time, which is why getting a job makes sense.

Good luck with everything. Someday all of the stress and confusion you have now will be a distant memory, so keep at it.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Hey everyone.

This is an update. Sorry I have been MIA - I talked to the Dean and he offered me the opportunity to withdrawal instead of be dismissed. After lots of deliberation, I took it.

(Also, I've been AWOL bc when it rains it pours...after I withdrew my significant other dumped me after 2 years...I think I must be paying for crimes committed in a past life...)

ANYways, moving on. I tried to fight to stay in, and get second chances, but they weren't having it. I am thinking that I DID get in my own way in this process of school...many of you pointed out that when I was sick that I didn't handle myself professionally. I agree. I feel like I need to address some of these issues, like why it was difficult for me to remain composed in that given situation, how to be more conscientious in the face of adversity. I've been thinking that before I retry medical school, I should probably go see a counselor and figure out how to cope with unexpected life changes - such as illness, break-ups, whatever...without shutting down and letting it totally wreck my attempts to succeed. What do you guys think?

I still want to be a doctor. I still want to go to medical school. I just don't want to go again and have this same situation happen. Some of my colleagues are telling me that I should quickly apply to the Caribbean to get in come January. I honestly feel like it's a rush and scramble to do that, and want to find a job to support myself before going back into the grueling environment and possibly messing up again. I'm currently teaching English to kids in China via the web, but this involves not leaving the house...and that's just not really what I think I can do for the next however long. It's a good placeholder to make money now, though. Your thoughts are appreciated!

So here are some questions:
1) Apply to Caribbean ASAP - what do you all think?
2) Apply for a job in medical field (or medical non-profit sector - I have NP experience)...but how would I put on my resume that I was in medical school and withdrew - and that's what I've been doing for the past two years?
2a) This is said with the assumption that I would retake the MCAT and get a better score - since my first one was "eh" at best.
3) Scrap it all and become a clinical psychologist, or some other healthcare professional...

Seriously, guys - you all rock and your feedback has been invaluable.

I'm really sorry this happened to you. I'm glad that you are keeping a positive attitude. My opinion is that you have to move on from medicine. Personally, I'd pursue podiatry as it is a stable career and now the average GPA/MCAT is again dropping due to the increase in osteopathic schools and enrollment in MD.

 

[chasm-e-baddoor]

This is kind of in line with my point- if a SEAL can make it through training with a broken leg, why can't OP make it through some studying time with a case of the sniffles? Thats just kind of medicine though. Reminds me of this time I was in the OR, and and am eyelash managed to creep under my contact lens.

Me, trying my best to keep my eyes open as the eyelash scrapes between my lens and cornea, still holding retractors: "Argh..."
Surgeon: "Something wrong?"
Me: "I've got an eyelash in my eye."
Surgeon: "Mike (scrub tech), how many tours did you do in Iraq and Afghanistan?"
Tech: "Four, sir."
Surgeon: "In all that time, did a soldier ever dare complain about something as pathetic as an eyelash in their eye?"
Tech: "No sir."
Everyone: *laughs*

Scraped up my eye pretty good (looked like I had pinkeye the next day lol), but I learned minor complaints really aren't well received in medicine, so I try to keep my mouth shut unless I'm bleeding out.

What is that attending's problem? You werent complaining. He was the one who asked you.

Also, contacts arent allowed in the military so nobody would have that problem

 

[bollocks1234]

Edit: I just reread this and I really wanted to say that I am so sorry about your significant other, that is a terrible indictment on him/her, and a burden to you. My condolences on that front, cause I know it sucks. And I wanted to commend you on keeping the positive outlook, that will help you go far!

Addressing the options I think are best. 1 and 3 are not good, carribbean for obvious reasons, and clinical psychology d/t job outlook/limited practice. IMO you will go into debt waste lots of time, make little money and have no scope of practice as a clinical psychologist. Its pretty much the one of the worst degree choice monetarily outside of liberal arts, and especially for someone who was in medical school, I think you would have regret/envy. So with that in mind, I think you should get a job first and foremost, so will address that first.

You have to tell jobs what you have been doing for the last two years if you want one, but you don't have to be specific. Example of bad: 'I was in medical school and I withdrew.' Bad choice, I wouldn't even acknowledge it was medical school specifically when you are trying to get a job, just say it was a graduate health science degree or whatever general term you feel comfortable with (I believe it would be to many people who weren't in medical school a sign of poor judgement to 'quit,' mostly cause they have no idea what medical school is like). You really don't want to have to explain that.

People who haven't been in medical school by and large have no clue why anyone would quit, or they assume you failed out but are lying. And nobody wants to hire the F student. When you say I was doing a graduates health science degree and just wasn't sure if it was really worth it, people understand. Not encouraging lying, but your potential employer just doesn't need to know what degree specifically.

Better way to say: 'I was in graduate school but I wasn't feeling sure about my degree. While I am definitely interested in advancing and improving my life I am not certain that I gave work enough of a chance. I just want to get back to work for a couple years, and then maybe I will think about school later.'

I am sure some will have better variants of the above quotes, so wait for that. Also presenting it the way I tried to above lets them know that you might be interested in advancing later and are career oriented, but your not looking at school at this moment. The nice thing about saying its a graduate degree instead of medical, is when they ask you what it was in, you say health related. And if they follow up were you trying to go premed or something, you can say that you did have some interest in becoming a doctor, but your just not sure its worth it at the moment. Just based on your answer you go from an guy that's assumed to have flunked out of medical school/ has really poor judgement, to a guy who was trying to get into medical school and became disillusioned (and that's only if they followed up a lot). One of those people I feel a lot better about hiring.

Now the answer to 2a depends on the terms of your withdraw: If it is listed as withdraw, and NOT withdraw due to failing, then I think your narrative should focus on a. health difficulties that are resolvable: avoid chronic mental health issues (sorry there's still a bias), and focus on diseases that were cured and major life events that won't realistically happen again. And b. the other option is to focus on immaturity and talk about how you needed some time to experience the world and grow up. In this case, retaking the MCAT, doing better, and then talking about your new healthcare job experience should be enough to sooth the suspicions of the admissions committee.

If you are listed as Withdraw d/t failing, I think you pretty much need to do a post bacc or some equivalent to prove your academic worth, AND you need a better MCAT. Then follow the same formula as previous paragraph and someone will probably bite. I think going from a dismissal to a withdraw is a pretty big win for you, so good on that. I do not think you should take shortcuts to try and get back in. Going to the Carribbean would be a mistake, just do it right, and maybe you can do better than your previous school, who knows, even admissions like a good redemptive story.

First of all, thank you for reading all of my post and taking the time to write a detailed response. Yes, my significant other left right when I found out my appeal wasn't going to work and my financial aid wasn't coming through. He basically said "well, you spent the past two years trying to do this, and you failed - all the time you spent away from me wasn't worth it and I don't want to stick around while you try to get your life together." True story. It still hurts.

Anyways, I think a post bacc would be good and also retaking the MCAT. I have been looking into NP and PA programs, but I know that there are people where their hearts are really into getting into the field, and mine just isn't. I have been looking at the GRE and have taken a practice test and have done really well (much better than I did on the MCAT, actually!), so I just need to sort out what kind of path I want. I miss medicine, I miss my partner (even though him leaving me while I was struggling is horrible), and generally am just clueless about how to proceed - so your (and the other people that provided) guidance is so appreciated. Thank you for taking the time, again.

 

[bollocks1234]

First off, I'm glad you are digging deeper and really taking a look at what happened in med school. I also think its a great idea to see a counselor and develop better coping skills to deal with life events. You need to take care of yourself first, and I'm glad you're taking those steps.

As for your options. I would absolutely recommend against #1. I agree with BorntobeDO that you should seek out some form of employment right now while you figure things out (e.g. like whether or not you want to continue pursuing medicine vs. another healthcare career vs. other career altogether). Also agree that you can be vague in how you address it on your resume. While I don't think you'll be blacklisted or viewed as an idiot for admitting that you withdrew from med school (you'd be surprised how many people there are that started or even finished med school and aren't working as doctors), it would probably help not having to answer the more questions saying med school would invite. Go with withdrew from graduate degree because of health/being unsure if it was the right degree for you.

I think its premature to scrap anything, and I actually don't think being a clinical psychologist is a terrible career. All careers have pros and cons, and trust medicine has plenty. Money may not be one of them, but there are plenty of others.

In any case, I think its too early to "scrap" anything. First you need to take care of yourself mentally, emotionally and physically, then you need to figure out what you want in a career, and then a game plan for how to get there. It might take time, which is why getting a job makes sense.

Good luck with everything. Someday all of the stress and confusion you have now will be a distant memory, so keep at it.

I agree with everything you have written. I think it's too early to scrap anything, too - although, it's hard with family members and friends breathing down my neck wondering what my Plan (with a capital P) is. I need to update my resume with the health sciences part, since at the moment I have put down medical school, but have also written that I withdrew to find a better fitting career. Thank you for taking the time to write a response...every little bit of advice is helpful and I just want some amount of normalcy, and a means to provide for myself, at this juncture.

 

[bollocks1234]

I'm really sorry this happened to you. I'm glad that you are keeping a positive attitude. My opinion is that you have to move on from medicine. Personally, I'd pursue podiatry as it is a stable career and now the average GPA/MCAT is again dropping due to the increase in osteopathic schools and enrollment in MD.

I have heard good things about podiatry as a career choice, and have never really thought of it, except in passing. Also, my positive attitude waxes and wanes depending on the day, for sure . Just trying to find my way after dedicating the past decade of my life to medicine...I hate the idea of giving up on it, but maybe it's for the best. I'm not sure. I think seeing a counselor could be a good way to figure it out. I know that 30 isn't old, but I am 30 and worried that my life is just kind of passing me by, with a decade of hard work with nothing to show for. At any rate, it will work out and I am so appreciative of your feedback and suggestion(s). Thank you.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I meant, what did you mean by "targeting" DO student?
Its crazy how twisted that sounds. All i am doing is sharing my experience with others that may find themselves in a similar situation while at the same time making sure that I am not being misunderstood as trying to advertise for anybody... Its incredible how some people feel"targeted" when in fact, all i was suggesting is that there are options out there!
Do you find yourself in a similar situation and want to discuss it?
if so, i would gladly share my experience with you and perhaps it can be informative/helpful.
if not , why do you bother? don't you have better things to do?

sincerely,

dr via

So what's the name of the school with "office in atlanta" that you are speaking of?

 

[WisNeuro]

Addressing the options I think are best. 1 and 3 are not good, carribbean for obvious reasons, and clinical psychology d/t job outlook/limited practice. IMO you will go into debt waste lots of time, make little money and have no scope of practice as a clinical psychologist. Its pretty much the one of the worst degree choice monetarily outside of liberal arts, and especially for someone who was in medical school, I think you would have regret/envy. So with that in mind, I think you should get a job first and foremost, so will address that first.

Little bit of misinformation/misunderstanding with clinical psych PhD here. most clinical psych PhDs are fully funded. We paid no tuition and were paid a stipend actually. I have 0 debt from my grad school training. Also, many of us are well into 6 figure salaries, not counting other compensation (401k/403b/pension/etc). Hell, if you want to do forensic work full time, you can net 400k+ pretty easy if you're decent at it. I guess I just don't understand how a degree that pays you to attend school and gives you a 6 figure plus salary is one of the worst degrees you can think of.

 

[Psych_hopeful]

So what's the name of the school with "office in atlanta" that you are speaking of?

I must say I don't like jerk attendings or residents who give excessively negative feedback in an effort to "improve" someone or in the name of being "honest".

However, FAR FAR FAR WORSE, is when someone gives FALSE REASSURANCE. Really would not want to see people doing that when others are in pain.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Little bit of misinformation/misunderstanding with clinical psych PhD here. most clinical psych PhDs are fully funded. We paid no tuition and were paid a stipend actually. I have 0 debt from my grad school training. Also, many of us are well into 6 figure salaries, not counting other compensation (401k/403b/pension/etc). Hell, if you want to do forensic work full time, you can net 400k+ pretty easy if you're decent at it. I guess I just don't understand how a degree that pays you to attend school and gives you a 6 figure plus salary is one of the worst degrees you can think of.

http://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/09-salaries/table-15a.pdf

Median salary for clinical PhD at graduation with no experience: 60k. At ten years its upto 85k, by 20 years 96k median. That's from the APA with 51,000 Psychologists surveyed. Admittedly its 2009, but its still the most recent one, a huge pool and reliable.

also "APA's latest survey of doctoral graduates, completed in 2011, revealed that more than two-thirds of all students took out loans during their education, with the median amount of debt ranging from $30,000 for psychology research PhDs to $80,000 for students in health service professions. PsyD students graduate with a median debt of $120,000." Facing up to debt
120k is not cheap for a PsyD. 30k for the research PhD is alright, but your still looking at a job were the median income is 60k out the door.

 

[WisNeuro]

http://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/09-salaries/table-15a.pdf

Median salary for clinical PhD at graduation with no experience: 60k. At ten years its upto 85k, by 20 years 96k median. That's from the APA with 51,000 Psychologists survived. Admittedly its 2009, but its still the most recent one I could find with the minimal effort I will spend on this topic. 100k

2015 survey breaks it down much better and nuanced. Median salaries vary greatly between settings 85-120k. If you look at the TCN neuropsych salary survey, you'll find even higher numbers. Higher numbers still if you look at forensic/IME practice individuals. So yes, >100k is quite common. As is 0 debt.

 

[deleted103644]

http://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/09-salaries/table-15a.pdf

Median salary for clinical PhD at graduation with no experience: 60k. At ten years its upto 85k, by 20 years 96k median. That's from the APA with 51,000 Psychologists survived. Admittedly its 2009, but its still the most recent one, a huge pool and reliable.

also "APA's latest survey of doctoral graduates, completed in 2011, revealed that more than two-thirds of all students took out loans during their education, with the median amount of debt ranging from $30,000 for psychology research PhDs to $80,000 for students in health service professions. PsyD students graduate with a median debt of $120,000." Facing up to debt
120k is not cheap for a PsyD. 30k for the research PhD is alright, but your still looking at a job were the median income is 60k out the door. I believe you are painting a rosier picture than reality.

That is brutal. How many died?

 

[BorntobeDO?]

2015 survey breaks it down much better and nuanced. Median salaries vary greatly between settings 85-120k. If you look at the TCN neuropsych salary survey, you'll find even higher numbers. Higher numbers still if you look at forensic/IME practice individuals. So yes, >100k is quite common. As is 0 debt.

See above, I posted the median debt as well. There is a difference between possible and probable. I think our disagreement is going to lie there. I pulled median debt, with median income for a grad with no experience.

I did lookup TCN, its quite a bit smaller (1700) and its interesting how they choose to exclude anyone making less than 50k, or engaging in post-doctoral training (shouldn't affect medians too much tho). But admittedly I am getting out of my depth. I gave a general opinion, and I believe it holds up. Your specialty may indeed be as indicated, but it certainly appears to be an outlier.

But since we are on this topic, how competitive would this fully funded free Nueropsych Phd be to get into in the first place? Would they even consider someone who withdrawed from Medschool due to failing?

 

[WisNeuro]

Postdocs and part-timers would incredibly skew the data, there's a good reason they were excluded. As for debt, 32% in PhD programs have 0 graduate school debt, another 20+% ontop of that are between 10-20k. That's probable, not just possible. Also, medians outside of government work are indeed in the 6 figures. Again, these are a great percentage of people in the field.

As for competitiveness, that's another story. Reputable clinical psych programs have an acceptance rate, on average, of about 2-5%. Neuro specific programs probably trend as harder to get into. Regarding the med school withdrawal, they would still need to have good stats (GPA, research exp, GRE) and they'd have to have a pretty good explanation about their withdrawal. So, definitely not an easy path. They could always get a diploma mill PsyD, but then they'd have a butt load of debt and would most likely be well on the wrong side of a six figure salary.

 

[bollocks1234]

Hey peeps.

I haven't been on in a little while, but I just wanted to give you guys some updates and wanted to see if I could get a few of your opinions. I am currently employed, but would like to do some type of coursework to demonstrate that I've mastered any of the classes that I struggled with while in school. Do you guys know of any way to do this part-time, while working?

Also, sidenote - this isn't really here nor there, but I found out recently that two of my (former) classmates got caught cheating during exams. They had to go before the student honor committee, lied to the committee, then had to go before the ethics board, and finally admitted to cheating because they were caught on camera and their keystrokes were recorded. Although all of this happened and they were found guilty and temporarily suspended, the Dean is personally working with them to make sure that they find a bio-ethics program (whereupon they earn a certificate) to complete within the next year so that they can start back at the beginning of block 6 (the block that they were caught cheating in). I guess I'm just a little shocked by this. These two folks are actually my friends and I don't wish harm upon them, but am floored that I was dismissed - permanently - and committed no ethical violations, but people that were caught lying and cheating are catered to by the school*. I can't help but see the irony of the situation - that folks that struggle in classes are dismissed, but those that maintain good grades by cheating (and are caught) stay in school. I guess I just wanted to get a little feedback on this - just to see what other people thought.

Thanks again for the thoughts on everything, you guys!

*edited to add that I spoke directly to the people that this has happened to, so for once, this isn't a case of things being shared via gossip or hearsay

 

[GypsyHummus]

OP, why not look into podiatry and see if it is something for you. While it is different from being an MD/DO, it is the closest thing you can get to medicine without being a MD/DO. It kind of lives in its own grey area, in a good and bad way. Its not perfect, but it could be the best outcome of this bad situation. Plus, you have already taken a majority of the classes.

As long as your GPA is above a 3.0 and a 490 MCAT (even lower if one can compensate for the other), you can get into a pod school if you are not picky. I have no idea why it is so easy to get into a pod school, specially since they do surgery and make a good living. The only reason I can see for it not being competitive is "Eww, feet", but as an MD/DO, you are gonna have your fingers in a lot more unsavory places than a pus filled diabetic foot wound.

They would also be forgiving about the dismissal. When I was interviewing, I met a student who was dissmissed form the Caribbean and interviewed at a pod school. I dont know what became of her, but this goes to show you that they will interview almost anyone.

Shadow and see if it is something you would like to do. I shadowed and what they did is virtually indistinguishable from any other doctor, just with feet. Family med docs deal with warts and growths too.

And on the cheating thing yeah, life isn't fair.

Edit: Also, I know you feel hurt about the boyfriend thing, but in the end it will be better for you. If he isn't going to stick by you during this, you don't want him by your side when you have an illness or a death in the family and need someone to be beside. People show their true colors under stress. Better for him to be up front about it than to string you along and end up cheating on you.

Hey peeps.

I haven't been on in a little while, but I just wanted to give you guys some updates and wanted to see if I could get a few of your opinions. I am currently employed, but would like to do some type of coursework to demonstrate that I've mastered any of the classes that I struggled with while in school. Do you guys know of any way to do this part-time, while working?

Also, sidenote - this isn't really here nor there, but I found out recently that two of my (former) classmates got caught cheating during exams. They had to go before the student honor committee, lied to the committee, then had to go before the ethics board, and finally admitted to cheating because they were caught on camera and their keystrokes were recorded. Although all of this happened and they were found guilty and temporarily suspended, the Dean is personally working with them to make sure that they find a bio-ethics program (whereupon they earn a certificate) to complete within the next year so that they can start back at the beginning of block 6 (the block that they were caught cheating in). I guess I'm just a little shocked by this. These two folks are actually my friends and I don't wish harm upon them, but am floored that I was dismissed - permanently - and committed no ethical violations, but people that were caught lying and cheating are catered to by the school*. I can't help but see the irony of the situation - that folks that struggle in classes are dismissed, but those that maintain good grades by cheating (and are caught) stay in school. I guess I just wanted to get a little feedback on this - just to see what other people thought.

Thanks again for the thoughts on everything, you guys!

*edited to add that I spoke directly to the people that this has happened to, so for once, this isn't a case of things being shared via gossip or hearsay

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Hey peeps.

I haven't been on in a little while, but I just wanted to give you guys some updates and wanted to see if I could get a few of your opinions. I am currently employed, but would like to do some type of coursework to demonstrate that I've mastered any of the classes that I struggled with while in school. Do you guys know of any way to do this part-time, while working?

Also, sidenote - this isn't really here nor there, but I found out recently that two of my (former) classmates got caught cheating during exams. They had to go before the student honor committee, lied to the committee, then had to go before the ethics board, and finally admitted to cheating because they were caught on camera and their keystrokes were recorded. Although all of this happened and they were found guilty and temporarily suspended, the Dean is personally working with them to make sure that they find a bio-ethics program (whereupon they earn a certificate) to complete within the next year so that they can start back at the beginning of block 6 (the block that they were caught cheating in). I guess I'm just a little shocked by this. These two folks are actually my friends and I don't wish harm upon them, but am floored that I was dismissed - permanently - and committed no ethical violations, but people that were caught lying and cheating are catered to by the school*. I can't help but see the irony of the situation - that folks that struggle in classes are dismissed, but those that maintain good grades by cheating (and are caught) stay in school. I guess I just wanted to get a little feedback on this - just to see what other people thought.

Thanks again for the thoughts on everything, you guys!

*edited to add that I spoke directly to the people that this has happened to, so for once, this isn't a case of things being shared via gossip or hearsay

Depends on how your job feels about you have 2 days off a week for classes etc. Or your ability to find classes on Sat/Sun. I took classes while working the year before I got into med school. I was just very open with my boss about my goals, and tried to accommodate my employers needs as best as I could (would come in extra if available and they asked etc).

I would suggest online classes, but too many people told me in my admission cycle that they try to specifically avoid people with online degrees or who took to many of their classes online. Maybe they think you didn't suffer enough or something. So yeah. Otherwise I would start prepping for MCAT with some sort of structure/schedule. Hope it is going well for you.