I want to be a therapist. Is doing a PhD really much better than just getting a master's?

[rainygirl14]

Background: BA in psychology, out of school for two years. Doing some volunteer work in crisis counseling, but haven't been working.

This has been the biggest mystery for me in my quest to become a therapist. Many people tell me that working as a therapist at a master's level is almost identical to working with a doctorate, while others have emphasized that with a doctorate you will get much more/better education, the ability to perform psychological tests, be better able to give complex diagnoses, higher earning potentials, and generally be a better, more well-rounded therapist. This all sounds very appealing to me, as I want to be the best therapist that I can be. However, I am wondering if it is really worth it to put so much time, effort, and money (or lost earnings at least) into getting more education to do "basically the same thing."

I want to be a therapist because I am passionate about mental health and helping others. I don't think I will be satisfied in my life if I am not in a helping career. I have been very intrigued by therapy since I was in middle school, and it has never left me.

The one goal I have that is more important than any career goal, is to get married and become a mother. This is the biggest reason I am hesitant to go for a doctorate degree. I'm 24 and the biological clock is always ticking. I start envisioning myself in my early 30s and still barely making any money. I grew up in a family where my dad, a professional performing, made all of the money and my mom, despite having a law degree, has never worked since I was born. I have watched my dad struggle to get work and make money to support us, and I have watched power struggles between my parents because my mom doesn't contribute. Because of this, I feel strongly that I don't want to be in a position where I am relying solely on my husband to support the family, and I want to feel like I am contributing to society more than just by raising my kids. Not only does a doctorate program take many years to complete (and it would be several years before I could even be ready to apply for a program), from what I have read it also takes quite a bit of time after completing the education for someone to actually get a decent paying job. In that amount of time, I could be working for years establishing myself as a master's level therapist.

If I felt that the doctorate program would really be worth it in terms of having a much better job or much better salary, I would go for it. Right now I am not seeing a ton of evidence of this, it's just still a dream I have.

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[deleted760483]

A lot of what I learned in my doctoral program has helped me be a better therapist. I work with a lot of masters level providers who have great interpersonal skills but struggle to apply correct diagnoses, understand relevant treatment-related literature, speak to the biological impact of mental illness, etc.

 

[deleted760483]

And you shouldn't be making "very little money" in your early 30s if you are currently 24. The average doctoral program is 4 years of coursework followed by one year of internship, during which period money will likely be tight unless you have a wealthy spouse. That puts you at 29 to graduate. Your post doc will be he following year which usually pays fairly well, followed by your first licensed position at age 30 which should pay well.

 

[MCParent]

Do you know what state(s) you plan/hope to live in? States vary in what masters level practitioners can do and how they can practice. If you know you want to live in a state that would severely limit your scope of practice as a masters level person, that might make the decision more clear.

 

[rainygirl14]

It sounds like you're pretty much settled on getting a Master's and are looking for others to support your decision. Okay, I'll bite.

I'm actually very much not settled. If anything I'm looking for proof that the PhD is worth it. I've seen people on this site talking about how it's just a waste of time if all you want to do is therapy, and that the money you'll eventually earn isn't high enough to justify all the time and effort it takes to get it done. My latest plan has been to do a master's and then see if I want to go for the doctorate, but if I end up feeling settled on the doctorate I could save money and time by getting a research position and building up my application.

 

[pediatric_psydoc]

Are you solely considering a PhD in terms of doctorate degrees, or is a PsyD in consideration? If you are not wanting to focus your career on research, PsyD is an option.


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[MCParent]

Are you solely considering a PhD in terms of doctorate degrees, or is a PsyD in consideration? If you are not wanting to focus your career on research, PsyD is an option.


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Most PhDs go into practice.

 

[rainygirl14]

Are you solely considering a PhD in terms of doctorate degrees, or is a PsyD in consideration? If you are not wanting to focus your career on research, PsyD is an option.

My original plan was to do a PsyD, but I have heard so much negative stuff that it doesn't seem worth it. I live in California, and I would really like to stay on the West Coast. The PsyD programs that seem like they might actually be worth it all are far away from what I can tell. I just gave up and decided a PhD was a better idea.

I apologize, it was unfair of me to jump to that conclusion. I actually think the plan you have outlined above is not a bad one. Also, as I mentioned in my original post, there are training/certificate programs for Master's level students who'd like to deepen their clinical training.

I guess I am worried about wasting time doing a master's first since I will have already wasted 3 years if I start a program in fall 2018, but it's probably a good idea. I should look into the "extra education" aspect of the Master's, because I have heard about that. It may become more appealing whenever I am able to settle on a specialization. I am really interested in adolescents, but that's about it at this point.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

The field of mental health (in terms of what you can bring up with a standard Google search or what you can find on the bookshelves of your local Books-A-Million store) is awash with bad theories, bad theorists, and bad practices that don't really represent state-of-the-art applied behavioral science. One of the most critical things that you will learn in a PhD (and probably PsyD program as well, I can only speak to my own experience) program in clinical psychology is how to separate the good/useful information from the less useful and reliable information in the field. Unsurprisingly, this has profound implications for how effectively you practice.

 

[pediatric_psydoc]

Most PhDs go into practice.

Correct. Like I said, if OP doesn't want to focus on research, PsyD is an option. Most PsyD's do not focus on research. I did not speak to the career outcomes of PhD students.


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[MCParent]

Correct. Like I said, if OP doesn't want to focus on research, PsyD is an option. Most PsyD's do not focus on research. I did not speak to the career outcomes of PhD students.


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Many phd students do not do much research outside of the thesis and diss. There are many balanced phd programs.

 

[smalltownpsych]

When I was early in my education I chose to aim for the doctorate because it provided most options in case I changed my mind down the road. Also because one of those options was more money. I also am very committed to more than just individual change and I find that as a psychologist I have more credibility and authority and training to affect greater change in systems. Many years later on the other side of it, I have absolutely no regrets about choosing psychologist over therapist. The one regret that I have is that I didn't know that I could have done it with a lot less debt.

 

[singasongofjoy]

I went for a master's first- like you I wasn't super sure what I wanted to do beyond having vague areas of interest. It really helped in that regard. One thing I definitely suggest to keep your future PhD/PsyD options even more open is if you go the master's route consider programs that have a thesis requirement to graduate. Then if you go the doctoral route taht will usually transfer, giving you a leg up on the timeline to graduate. Additionally, if you don't go to a doctoral program in the future, then the process of doing a thesis will at least get you deeper into thinking critically about research which is an invaluable and necessary skill for a good clinician- you have to be able to separate the crap from the evidence based practices. I see folks coming in many times who have wasted thousands of dollars on therapies that are not evidence based (and not covered by insurance) because some community therapist recommended them ... when those dollars would have been MUCH more well-spent on evidence based practices that might not be as bright and shiny and novel but are proven to work with long-term effects. I won't get much more on my soap box but I cannot begin to describe how angry that makes me- I've seen cases that frankly I think are entirely unethical (in the case of kids with developmental disabilities who got some other hokey pokey therapy that was more convenient and sounded fancy versus the behaviorally based treatments that would have actually taught them the new skills they needed at younger ages to change their developmental trajectory for the better over the long run). So yeah. That's why being able to critically evaluate research is important as a clinician. Otherwise you risk practicing unethically and maybe not even knowing it, but having families waste years and potentially huge sums of money for little to no return.

 

[wtfook]

I guess I am worried about wasting time doing a master's first since I will have already wasted 3 years if I start a program in fall 2018, but it's probably a good idea. I should look into the "extra education" aspect of the Master's, because I have heard about that. It may become more appealing whenever I am able to settle on a specialization. I am really interested in adolescents, but that's about it at this point.

A PhD is at least 5 years (if not 6 or 7) of work. It is a lot of research work along with clinical work. If your ONLY interest is in conducting therapy, then I would recommend getting a master's degree. You can be a good therapist with a master's degree. Many regions, including California, have opportunities for continued training in delivering therapy post-master's so that you can train in your chosen theoretical orientation with great supervisors. Since you're in California, I would recommend doing an MSW instead of a Master's in Counseling. This is from someone who has a master's in counseling but who has spoken with people from California hoping to go back with that degree. MSW's lead to an LCSW and the licensure and post degree salary prospects are much better for that field compared to master's in counseling and LPC professionals. I'm pretty sure it's because counseling is a relatively new field compared to social work in California, but people please correct me if I'm wrong. Look into the fields more if this is what you're truly interested in doing. You'll have to pay money for a master's usually (where as PhDs are often fully funded). So that's something to keep in mind. Finally, even post licensure, you'll never make more money than a PhD psychologist. Generally, a starting salary before licensure at the master's level can be pretty low. Like 30k low.

 

[jmiah717]

A PhD is at least 5 years (if not 6 or 7) of work. It is a lot of research work along with clinical work. If your ONLY interest is in conducting therapy, then I would recommend getting a master's degree. You can be a good therapist with a master's degree. Many regions, including California, have opportunities for continued training in delivering therapy post-master's so that you can train in your chosen theoretical orientation with great supervisors. Since you're in California, I would recommend doing an MSW instead of a Master's in Counseling. This is from someone who has a master's in counseling but who has spoken with people from California hoping to go back with that degree. MSW's lead to an LCSW and the licensure and post degree salary prospects are much better for that field compared to master's in counseling and LPC professionals. I'm pretty sure it's because counseling is a relatively new field compared to social work in California, but people please correct me if I'm wrong. Look into the fields more if this is what you're truly interested in doing. You'll have to pay money for a master's usually (where as PhDs are often fully funded). So that's something to keep in mind. Finally, even post licensure, you'll never make more money than a PhD psychologist. Generally, a starting salary before licensure at the master's level can be pretty low. Like 30k low.

Agreed...mostly. You can make quite a bit of money as an LCSW if you play your cards right. While unlikely to make more than a psychologist, you can make well above 70k in the VA for example as an LCSW. Get a supervisor position and that jumps even more. You can also end up making quite a bit more than some psychologists if you work in private practice in the right situation. So, I agree that it's unlikely, but certainly possible to make more than a psychologist. That said, I also agree that you can be a great therapist with a master's degree, whichever one you might choose. It really depends on your post grad training and willingness to attend trainings with great presenters. I would think the same is probably true for psychologists. You will still have to put in a lot of post grad work to be competent and even more if you plan to be better than that. I've heard the same thing about SW being around longer than LPC so I would think that may be correct. 1:1 - psychologists are likely to have greater earning potential. And I also agree with what wtfook says about pre-licensure. You can make a pretty low salary depending on the work you take on. I was lucky though. I think pre licensure I made about 45-55k to start. All depends on where you live though.

Edit: Also extremely anecdotal, but I know of one MSW who is a CEO of an inpatient facility that is under the United Healthcare Services umbrella...So, I'm guessing she makes quite a big salary. N=1 but goes to show that you can make a path if you work hard and get a little lucky.

 

[smalltownpsych]

The other thing I would add is that i wanted to be a psychologist, I never wanted to just be a therapist. I wanted to study the brain, mind, body, behavior, and social aspects of people and then use that knowledge to help with providing interventions. if you aren't passionate about most or even much of psychology, then a masters program is probably the best route.

 

[jmiah717]

The other thing I would add is that i wanted to be a psychologist, I never wanted to just be a therapist. I wanted to study the brain, mind, body, behavior, and social aspects of people and then use that knowledge to help with providing interventions. if you aren't passionate about most or even much of psychology, then a masters program is probably the best route.

I would add that if you think ^^^^ is you, you should go PhD. That ^^^^ is me and I tried to ignore it and "just be a therapist." Now I'm 35 and trying to do this the hard(er) way. So, maybe spend some time trying to be sure. Asking questions is a great start.

 

[foreverbull]

As a fellow California resident, I know a few doctorate students out here who are struggling to finish their dissertations and wishing they were licensed at the master's level rather than feeling stuck being supervised at the doctoral-program-in-progress level while they work full-time and are underpaid since their degree isn't complete. The research/dissertation phase is what I've seen hold up several people in doc programs with no interest in research but just desire to practice, so carefully consider whether you can handle the research phase; everyone intends to finish, but it takes a lot of sacrifice and I've watched some colleagues put it off and procrastinate, much to their own detriment.

I got my master's first and knew I wanted to teach college courses and graduate courses someday and wanted to keep my options open to the tenure-track route, but I also have amassed many more student loans than someone pursuing a master's. I would suggest seeking the MFT route or LCSW license route if you just want to practice. You can practice without supervision with either license, and yes, the pay ceiling is lower for master's degrees generally, but it's still doable if you earn your way up the ladder over time.

I do think there's something to be said having been through a separate master's program and doctoral program for the quality and quantity of training at the Ph.D. level, but as long as you are aware of evidenced-based practices, keep abreast of ethics and issues in the field, and commit to continued growth as a therapist, you'd probably be fine at the master's level. There are bad master's-level therapists, but there are also bad Ph.D.-level therapists, too.

 

[singasongofjoy]

I don't know how things are in California, but can't you get licensed at the master's level after you finish your MA as part of a doctoral degree? Still have to take the EPPP and pass with whatever the master's level score is and file all the paperwork -but if you score high enough on the EPPP you don't have to take it again when you're applying for license at the doctoral level. I think that's how it is in my state at least. What do other folks know about this?

 

[Sanman]

I have been following this thread and meaning to reply back for a few days. My suggestion when making your decision is a that you take some time for brutal introspection (as PSYDR puts it) and considering whether you want a job (and can concentrate on personal issues and not work after hours) or if you want to be more career oriented. Nothing wrong with either choice. However, I feel that the master's level allows for more "job" opportunities. To make the most of a doctoral investment, you need to be willing to do more than a job. Whether it is buiding your own private practice and being business oriented or more academic in your nature, it is being more being more career oriented at making the degree work for yous in specific ways that makes the investment worth it to me. As an employee, I don't see the slight bump in pay worth the extra years of work.

To make an analogy here, think in terms of physician vs NP/PA. There are more jobs for the nurse or PA, though an employed physician may make a bit more. However, if you want to be a medical director and rise to the admin level where the pay difference is more substantial, you need to be a physician.

 

[pediatric_psydoc]

I don't know how things are in California, but can't you get licensed at the master's level after you finish your MA as part of a doctoral degree? Still have to take the EPPP and pass with whatever the master's level score is and file all the paperwork -but if you score high enough on the EPPP you don't have to take it again when you're applying for license at the doctoral level. I think that's how it is in my state at least. What do other folks know about this?

In my state, you can't get licensed with a nonterminal degree. The MA in clinical psych is a nonterminal degree. I do not know if they view the MA in counseling psych any differently, and I don't know how things are in CA either.


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[foreverbull]

I don't know how things are in California, but can't you get licensed at the master's level after you finish your MA as part of a doctoral degree? Still have to take the EPPP and pass with whatever the master's level score is and file all the paperwork -but if you score high enough on the EPPP you don't have to take it again when you're applying for license at the doctoral level. I think that's how it is in my state at least. What do other folks know about this?

That could also be an option. My understanding is that it isn't state-specific but program-specific, because programs can choose to prepare you for licensure at the master's level (per regulatory boards in your state) and doctoral level should they be so inclined. In practice, however, I'm not sure how common that is. Also, the course requirements for LMFT/LPCC differ from the coursework in PhD programs, and MFT/LPCC-track people don't take the EPPP.

In California, should you wish to be licensed as an LMFT en route to getting your Ph.D./psychologist licensure, you'd be doubling up on licensure exams, ethics exams, supervised hours (3,000 MFT post-master's + 3,000 predoctoral/postdoctoral = 6,000), and licensing fees for both. California has some of the most stringent licensing standards in the country, so attempting both licenses within 4-6 years would be self-punishment.

LMFT and LPCC are the only specific licenses for people who pursue psychology/counseling at the masters level in California (unless you go into school counseling), so the PhD program would have to specify that it offers a terminal master's that can be used toward licensure as an LPCC/LMFT along the way, or it has to be a university that offers both a terminal master's track and a doctoral track (my grad program outside of CA had the latter). Many PhD programs offer non-terminal master's degrees in psychology, etc. that don't translate to psychotherapy practice, and a few doctoral students I know in California who have non-terminal master's degrees in psychology are stuck until they finish. The CA Board of Behavioral Sciences doesn't recognize their degrees because the program wasn't designed to meet requirements for master's level licensure. To prevent that scenario, the original poster would need to research individual programs to see what kind of master's degree (if any) they offer en route to the doctorate.

 

[rainygirl14]

Thank you so much to everyone who has responded. I didn't expect this many responses so soon, and you have all really helped ease my mind. I think what would probably be best for me would be to do a master's before applying to a PhD, because it would take a lot of work just to get into a PhD program, meanwhile I could actually be in a master's program gaining useable skills and a useable degree, AND strengthening my application (hopefully I could get a research position during this time). This way if I end up not wanting to go PhD in the end, I will still have a master's. Hopefully master's level graduate work will give me an idea of whether 5+ years of PhD work is something I could manage.

In terms of LCSW vs LMFT vs LPCC, I have been leaning against LCSW because because I guess I am not that interested in "social work" and it seems (intuitively at least) that an actual clinical psychology or counseling psychology program would give better training to be a therapist. However, I have also heard that only LCSWs can bill insurance in some cases, so that is something to consider. A lot of people have recommended becoming an LCSW, but I am still not convinced. Probably a question for the other side of the psychology forums on here!

 

[jmiah717]

I am an LCSW. Feel free to send me a PM if you have questions.


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[twomarshmallows]

Two of my closest friends recently completed their LCSW, and they each went to excellent programs and have prioritized evidence-based training/supervision experiences as much as possible. I do not have the sense that they are less able than I am to think critically or provide effective therapy, and they work with the same population I do. They may need to do a few more workshops as a supplement due to some supervisory experiences that felt a little atheoretical in nature, and (per one's report) may need a little more training to do an accurate diagnostic interview at intake (depending on where they end up working).

At my practicum site at a major academic medical center, I've worked with multiple social workers who are clinically equivalent to the psychologists in terms of eval/diagnostics/therapy. Some are partially funded for case management work, others aren't. I suspect they are paid less (depending on relative experience), and they aren't in leadership roles. My sense is that they never had an interest in the admin/leadership - I've worked in other sites where LICSWs are leadership, and I'm not sure their degree is the reason for this.

I'm certain these things differ widely by state, just chiming in with my experience!

 

[Jake0006]

I'm certain these things differ widely by state, just chiming in with my experience!

I'm thinking that they do differ widely state to state, but that there are universals as well. I'm a practicing masters level therapist (LPCC), starting a PhD Clinical Psych program soon (very, very soon). I can speak to some realities of current practice. The role of masters level therapists is meant to be that they understand current research and are constantly being self-aware and growing, but this isn't the reality much of the time. Just to oversimplify things, let's say there are good masters level therapists and bad. Good therapists will specialize, get specialized in an EBP (not just the bandwagon ones!) and a demographic (children, adults, families, etc.), accepting referrals for just that niche and figuring that someone else is better to do the other stuff. In very small towns, they will still specialize and go with certain EBP's and do them to fidelity. Bad therapists? Well, they'll not specialize, take anyone who comes through the door, and wing it based on what they've retained from their MS degree. Picture them watching the clock, because they are, at least metaphorically. A good therapist will try very hard to uphold ethical practice and professionalism, and do so with dignity, whereas a bad therapist is an "advice-giver" or "someone who is just there to listen." Even most good therapists are not spending a lot of time with the research because they're so busy most of the time, but bad therapists just completely keep their head down.

I would encourage you to aspire to being a good therapist if you go that route, because there's some pretty scary stuff out there... counselors who are pretty bad, seem to not know or care, and who are a pretty "ugly face" for psychology for members of the public who are likely in genuine need. I would draw an analogy of a good teacher v. bad teacher as well, where the good teacher is engaged and actively educating, where the bad teacher is either reciting the lecture from rote memory or just letting the kiddos fill out a random worksheet. Just as bad, and just as unfair.

Just thought I would throw in some unsolicited advice that could perhaps be of interest to someone.

 

[ellenew]

Despite my inclination to reduce dissonance about this, I'm going to be honest about my experience and reflections. I, too, felt conflicted about obtaining a PhD (rather than a masters degree in clinical mental health counseling) because I knew that I wanted to be able to stay home with my future children when they were young. I ultimately did decide to pursue a PhD and I am currently in my internship year and will be defending my dissertation soon. I got married one year into my program to someone in the military, which has resulted in living apart for most of our marriage and delaying having children. While I did gain valuable training and knowledge after completing my masters (as part of my PhD program), I cannot deny that I often think this was a mistake. I absolutely love what I do, and wouldn't be able to work in my desired area of concentration (pediatric psychology) without a doctorate. As I head into making choices about post-doc and how to begin having children with my husband, I find myself questioning the timeline because I want to be able to get my foot in the door at a hospital and worry about needing to taking time off so soon into my career. I have found that some days are better than others in terms of the self-induced guilt I feel living away from him. Today is his birthday so I'm feeling particularly guilty and regretful (in some respects). I say this so you can take what I'm saying knowing that today's events could be influencing my thoughts.

 

[Sendtrees]

An LCSW is a respected degree and you will have an easier time finding a program in California (/the West Coast--perhaps that meant you are willing to move to OR and WA too) than either a PhD program or PsyD. You are concerned about not making money in your early 30s, which is reasonable, so I can't imagine why anyone would suggest you go for a PsyD where you would owe $200,000 or more. Also--doctoral programs can be very tricky to couple within. If your priority is wife/mother, you probably should not invest 2-3 years of your life into getting into a PhD program, and then another 5 years into the degree itself. Finally...it seems you have been out of school for two years and not working...why this is is none of our business, but it may indicate a mismatch to a PhD program. If you will be satisfied with practicing therapy, an MA degree will work for you, but I think you should seriously consider an LCSW.

 

[foreverbull]

I'm thinking that they do differ widely state to state, but that there are universals as well. I'm a practicing masters level therapist (LPCC), starting a PhD Clinical Psych program soon (very, very soon). I can speak to some realities of current practice. The role of masters level therapists is meant to be that they understand current research and are constantly being self-aware and growing, but this isn't the reality much of the time. Just to oversimplify things, let's say there are good masters level therapists and bad. Good therapists will specialize, get specialized in an EBP (not just the bandwagon ones!) and a demographic (children, adults, families, etc.), accepting referrals for just that niche and figuring that someone else is better to do the other stuff. In very small towns, they will still specialize and go with certain EBP's and do them to fidelity. Bad therapists? Well, they'll not specialize, take anyone who comes through the door, and wing it based on what they've retained from their MS degree. Picture them watching the clock, because they are, at least metaphorically. A good therapist will try very hard to uphold ethical practice and professionalism, and do so with dignity, whereas a bad therapist is an "advice-giver" or "someone who is just there to listen." Even most good therapists are not spending a lot of time with the research because they're so busy most of the time, but bad therapists just completely keep their head down.

I would encourage you to aspire to being a good therapist if you go that route, because there's some pretty scary stuff out there... counselors who are pretty bad, seem to not know or care, and who are a pretty "ugly face" for psychology for members of the public who are likely in genuine need. I would draw an analogy of a good teacher v. bad teacher as well, where the good teacher is engaged and actively educating, where the bad teacher is either reciting the lecture from rote memory or just letting the kiddos fill out a random worksheet. Just as bad, and just as unfair.

Just thought I would throw in some unsolicited advice that could perhaps be of interest to someone.

Most of what you said makes sense and is agreeable! I think the bigger picture is that we have good and bad practitioners in every field/at every level imaginable because that's life. We have people who stay in narrow comfort zones and people wanting challenge and growth in every type of job. Most of any trait/phenomenon falls on a bell curve, and I think that therapists are on a bell curve in terms of effectiveness (both master's and doctoral-level), with the majority being okay/somewhat helpful, some being really poor practitioners (even harmful), and some being really effective above a standard deviation or two above the rest. I think personal qualities/abilities/motivations are important above and beyond training in this regard.

I agree with your point about aspiring to be a good therapist. Absolutely! One can only hope that regardless of level, people are in the field practicing because they want to be effective therapists and are self-aware, open to feedback, and always learning.

As far as the decision whether to pursue a master's or doctorate (@ellenew), it should be about what fits your career goals and your life. It sounds like for you, pursuing a doctorate may feel like too big of a sacrifice in terms of what you value right now. For people planning families in my grad program, there was definitely a lot more stress and pressure and not much support for them, which reflects a larger societal bias against having children while pursuing a career (particularly toward women). Having said that, several people had kids on internship and/or post-doc, so if you are worried about having kids during your post-doc year, it's not uncommon to go that route if you want the pediatric post-doc and don't want to put it off.
Graduate school and sacrifice go hand in hand, unfortunately. I had a distance relationship in graduate school that created a lot of stress, particularly when I was on internship in a remote area (away from friends/family and needing extra support). It felt like it would never end at the time, even though there was an end in sight. When you're in it, it's hard to see beyond it, for sure. But it did end, and it was such a relief. You are nearing the end of your time apart, it sounds like, so hang in there! You are so close to finishing!

 

[jmiah717]

Despite my inclination to reduce dissonance about this, I'm going to be honest about my experience and reflections. I, too, felt conflicted about obtaining a PhD (rather than a masters degree in clinical mental health counseling) because I knew that I wanted to be able to stay home with my future children when they were young. I ultimately did decide to pursue a PhD and I am currently in my internship year and will be defending my dissertation soon. I got married one year into my program to someone in the military, which has resulted in living apart for most of our marriage and delaying having children. While I did gain valuable training and knowledge after completing my masters (as part of my PhD program), I cannot deny that I often think this was a mistake. I absolutely love what I do, and wouldn't be able to work in my desired area of concentration (pediatric psychology) without a doctorate. As I head into making choices about post-doc and how to begin having children with my husband, I find myself questioning the timeline because I want to be able to get my foot in the door at a hospital and worry about needing to taking time off so soon into my career. I have found that some days are better than others in terms of the self-induced guilt I feel living away from him. Today is his birthday so I'm feeling particularly guilty and regretful (in some respects). I say this so you can take what I'm saying knowing that today's events could be influencing my thoughts.

First, good for you for doing the hard thing to accomplish your goals. Good for your husband for being flexible enough to allow that to happen. Some unsolicited advice, take it or leave it:

I put off my goals to have children with my wife for the last 12 years...guess what...no kids...so there are no guarantees. Now, even in the midst of in-vitro round three, I'm pursuing this goal and passion because I'm done putting things on hold for things that might never happen. We'll just have to figure out how to make it work if I get in and one of these attempts actually succeed. As a former military person, I am sure that if it hasn't already, your husband's career will require sacrifice from you on multiple occasions and it won't always be for the positive for you personally. I say that to say that it sounds like you have an understanding partner and certainly seems like you are as well. Eventually, you'll be able to look back on this (with your doctorate) and it will have been a learning experience and a great accomplishment that you never have to repeat. The other side of the coin is always wondering if you could have or if it would have been better to just do what you're doing now. If you have kids, you can still stay home with them if you want, right? Just because you'll have a PhD doesn't mean you can't do that. Also, if you decide to rejoin the workforce after that, you'll be more marketable as a PhD who took time off than an MA, MSW, MS who took time off. There are also lots of creative ways to make money with a PhD that might not have been offered with a Master's degree and license.

Maybe I'm talking to me (the 36 year old dude who's wife is willing to move around the country in spite of so far never accomplishing her dream of being a mother) more than I'm talking to you. I look at it like this, if my wife is TRULY on board, let's do this. I'm in a different boat though as I'm not even in a program. I'm a full time clinician at the VA and I'm doing research with a faculty member at a top university. So, for me this is hypothetical and for you it's real. Best of luck and I think when you're back to work when your kids are in school and your husband is basically retired from the military if he goes that route, you'll be glad it's Dr. So and so as opposed to "I wonder if I could have..."

 

[ellenew]

As far as the decision whether to pursue a master's or doctorate (@ellenew), it should be about what fits your career goals and your life. It sounds like for you, pursuing a doctorate may feel like too big of a sacrifice in terms of what you value right now. For people planning families in my grad program, there was definitely a lot more stress and pressure and not much support for them, which reflects a larger societal bias against having children while pursuing a career (particularly toward women). Having said that, several people had kids on internship and/or post-doc, so if you are worried about having kids during your post-doc year, it's not uncommon to go that route if you want the pediatric post-doc and don't want to put it off.
Graduate school and sacrifice go hand in hand, unfortunately. I had a distance relationship in graduate school that created a lot of stress, particularly when I was on internship in a remote area (away from friends/family and needing extra support). It felt like it would never end at the time, even though there was an end in sight. When you're in it, it's hard to see beyond it, for sure. But it did end, and it was such a relief. You are nearing the end of your time apart, it sounds like, so hang in there! You are so close to finishing![/QUOTE]


Hey there @foreverbull - Thanks for the response. I actually am finishing my PhD right now (currently on internship and will defend my dissertation soon). The sacrifice to go to graduate school and complete my training has been arduous, that's for sure. I am hoping I will get a postdoc near where he is stationed next year!

 

[ellenew]

First, good for you for doing the hard thing to accomplish your goals. Good for your husband for being flexible enough to allow that to happen. Some unsolicited advice, take it or leave it:

I put off my goals to have children with my wife for the last 12 years...guess what...no kids...so there are no guarantees. Now, even in the midst of in-vitro round three, I'm pursuing this goal and passion because I'm done putting things on hold for things that might never happen. We'll just have to figure out how to make it work if I get in and one of these attempts actually succeed. As a former military person, I am sure that if it hasn't already, your husband's career will require sacrifice from you on multiple occasions and it won't always be for the positive for you personally. I say that to say that it sounds like you have an understanding partner and certainly seems like you are as well. Eventually, you'll be able to look back on this (with your doctorate) and it will have been a learning experience and a great accomplishment that you never have to repeat. The other side of the coin is always wondering if you could have or if it would have been better to just do what you're doing now. If you have kids, you can still stay home with them if you want, right? Just because you'll have a PhD doesn't mean you can't do that. Also, if you decide to rejoin the workforce after that, you'll be more marketable as a PhD who took time off than an MA, MSW, MS who took time off. There are also lots of creative ways to make money with a PhD that might not have been offered with a Master's degree and license.

Maybe I'm talking to me (the 36 year old dude who's wife is willing to move around the country in spite of so far never accomplishing her dream of being a mother) more than I'm talking to you. I look at it like this, if my wife is TRULY on board, let's do this. I'm in a different boat though as I'm not even in a program. I'm a full time clinician at the VA and I'm doing research with a faculty member at a top university. So, for me this is hypothetical and for you it's real. Best of luck and I think when you're back to work when your kids are in school and your husband is basically retired from the military if he goes that route, you'll be glad it's Dr. So and so as opposed to "I wonder if I could have..."

Thank you for your thoughtful, kind words @jmiah717. I'm sorry to hear that you have been delayed in your career goals and are having trouble conceiving. You're right; there are no guarantees on that end and I have made a number of sacrifices for his military career. Fortunately, he and I are on the same page in terms of support one another's career goals for the good of our individual growth and financial success. For now, it looks like he will attempt to stay in for his 20, which brings up some anxiety in terms of getting licensed in each state we live. (I tend to be anxious and think too far ahead lol.) I'm glad to hear your spouse is supportive of your goals as well. Good for you to be so involving in research and clinical work in this interim period. I think those experiences will serve you well in your journey to gain entry into a training program. Have you decided on your program list yet? Are you applying for the upcoming round?