I need help!

[deleted171991]

You know what beats maternal antibodies? A baby that is eating and gaining weight. Women that struggle to breast feed and have babies falling behind growth curves shouldn't fixate on the breast milk, they should fixate on making sure the baby is eating. A breast fed failure to thrive baby is not better off than a bottle fed normally growing baby.

I agree. And that's where one supplements breastfeeding with formula. But you can't seriously argue that, in most cases, formula beats breast.

Btw, careful with the growth curves. The American ones are seriously skewed, due to the cultural concept of where obesity begins; we have a lot of childhood obesity, and it starts in infancy. We love fat babies, they are sooo cute. Any healthy baby who meets her developmental milestones (except for weight) is a normal baby, and should be left alone.

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[pgg]

There are also very logical reasons, such as maternal antibodies being passed to the babies.

I am not the activist here.

Logic and intuition don't often pan out to match reality when all factors are accounted for. I'm just saying, breastfed babies and non-breastfed babies aren't exactly coming from a well matched cohort of mothers.

What's the effect of some IgG in the face of maternal social and economic differences? I don't know. I don't think anyone does.

 

[deleted171991]

Logic and intuition don't often pan out to match reality when all factors are accounted for. I'm just saying, breastfed babies and non-breastfed babies aren't exactly coming from a well matched cohort of mothers.

What's the effect of some IgG in the face of maternal social and economic differences? I don't know. I don't think anyone does.

If you match the cohorts (it's not easy at evidence-based level), you will probably see the differences individual pediatricians feel. It's usually the babies who come from higher socioeconomic groups who get more formula (they can afford it, plus mom may have a career) and more infections, while most of the poor breastfeed their kids and let them play in dirt while they grow up and do a lot of the stuff that normal (i.e. loosely supervised) kids do in many developing countries, where there are much fewer food allergies and other developed world diseases (e.g. childhood obesity). It just can't be a coincidence that most serious (childhood) allergies are developed world diseases. I would bet my a$$ that our (relatively) high prevalence of food allergies comes also from all the industrial crap we feed our children, among others. I hadn't seen IBS in adults until I immigrated; it's a first world disease.

We raise our children in artificial environments, from the obsession with cleanliness to school buses and the overabundance of technology. We have ridiculously exaggerated concepts of what good child care is (mostly because we are busy/lazy parents), and it shows in the fact that we don't have the best pediatric outcomes at populational levels, definitely disproportionate with all the money we spend.

Nothing beats natural immunity, and maternal milk plays an important role in it, to the tune that some pediatricians support the idea of breastfeeding way beyond the first year. Stop defending artificial "food".

 

[periopdoc]

Spend enough years with a guilt wracked, sometimes to the point of becoming suicidal, mothers, who are being told it is their fault they just aren't doing enough of the right things to produce sufficient milk, and every woman CAN produce enough milk, and you might develop the same level of disdain that I have for lactivists, and their "breast is best" campaign.

There is only one industry who's profits rely solely and entirely on attempting to influence a woman's choice of how to feed her baby.

 

[deleted171991]

Spend enough years with a guilt wracked, sometimes to the point of becoming suicidal, mothers, who are being told it is their fault they just aren't doing enough of the right things to produce sufficient milk, and every woman CAN produce enough milk, and you might develop the same level of disdain that I have for lactivists, and their "breast is best" campaign.

There is only one industry who's profits rely solely and entirely on attempting to influence a woman's choice of how to feed her baby.

I have a disdain for any kind of fundamentalist person, so I completely understand. A good pediatrician who knows the specifics of the family can be really helpful when it's time to decide.

I personally got 100% formula, by the way. And no, it wasn't my mom's "fault".

 

[periopdoc]

My wife was one of those women who, for four years (two children), was harassed and harangued by lactivists about her inability to produce enough milk.

Here's the shocker, her mom wasn't able to produce enough milk either. It's like, there might be some sort of biological, genetic variance in the ability to produce milk.

Naw, that couldn't be it. The lactivists insist it isn't so.

 

[deleted171991]

My wife was one of those women who, for four years (two children), was harassed and harangued by lactivists about her inability to produce enough milk.

Here's the shocker, her mom wasn't able to produce enough milk either. It's like, there might be some sort of biological, genetic variance in the ability to produce milk.

Naw, that couldn't be it. The lactivists insist it isn't so.

That was my mom's situation, too. But please don't let your disdain for lactivists cloud your judgment.

 

[periopdoc]

And I should point out, I'm not saying formula is equal or superior, my issue is with the entire "Breast is Best" campaign and the Natural Fallacy from which it stems.

There is some very marginal benefit to breastfeeding as a component of an infants oral intake. That is what the data says, and that is we should be telling women.

 

[periopdoc]

Further I argue against the "what's the harm" of the "Breast is Best" campaign.

It has horrible effects on the mental health of women who can't meet the lactivist's standards. Same problem I have with the natural childbirth crowd TBH.

 

[periopdoc]

My judgement isn't clouded. When I get back from the lake, I'll post the data on how marginal the benefit of breastfeeding is

 

[deleted171991]

And I should point out, I'm not saying formula is equal or superior, my issue is with the entire "Breast is Best" campaign and the Natural Fallacy from which it stems.

There is some very marginal benefit to breastfeeding as a component of an infants oral intake. That is what the data says, and that is we should be telling women.

I wouldn't say marginal. We may not be able to point to outcomes yet (there are too few good studies, the formula industry definitely is not interested in proving their own inferiority), but I am sure there is association with some bad stuff, especially food allergies. When I was growing up, there were simply no significant food allergies in my generation. There was no concept that you can't bring certain foods to school, or share your food with your mates. And given how important the first few years of life are to immune (in)tolerance, I am sure formula has a role to play.

I think every parent has the right to decide what's best for their kid (unless obviously harmful). But absence of evidence (for harm) is not evidence of absence.

 

[deleted171991]

Further I argue against the "what's the harm" of the "Breast is Best" campaign.

It has horrible effects on the mental health of women who can't meet the lactivist's standards. Same problem I have with the natural childbirth crowd TBH.

Funny that you are on the side of political correctness (in the case of natural childbirth).

I am a big supporter of encouraging normalcy (as in healthy, natural) vs convenience. For example, more fat shaming (from loved ones and friends) would probably lead to less obesity than "fat is beautiful". Probably some more depression, too, but so do all other stressful things in life.

 

[nimbus]

I wouldn't say marginal. We may not be able to point to outcomes yet (there are too few good studies, the formula industry definitely is not interested in proving their own inferiority), but I am sure there is association with some bad stuff, especially food allergies. When I was growing up, there were simply no significant food allergies in my generation. There was no concept that you can't bring certain foods to school, or share your food with your mates. And given how important the first few years of life are to immune (in)tolerance, I am sure formula has a role to play.

I think every parent has the right to decide what's best for their kid (unless obviously harmful). But absence of evidence (for harm) is not evidence of absence.

I'm of the generation when formula was very popular and food allergies were unheard of. In my home country formula was considered superior to breast milk when I was an infant. Basically all the babies whose parents could afford it got formula. If anything food allergies seem more prevalent now with "breast is best". That may or may not have anything to do with breast milk.

 

[Mman]

I'm of the generation when formula was very popular and food allergies were unheard of. In my home country formula was considered superior to breast milk when I was an infant. Basically all the babies whose parents could afford it got formula. If anything food allergies seem more prevalent now with "breast is best". That may or may not have anything to do with breast milk.

I find great irony in that the 3 biggest concerns relating to formula feeding are allergies/atopy, diabetes, and childhood obesity. As breast feeding rates in this country have increased over the last 30 years or so, we've still seen an increase in all three.

 

[GravelRider]

The "natural parenting" industry is a billion dollar industry that preys on the anxieties that come with being a new parent. The anxieties of parents are now compounded even more with the ubiquity of social media. These "natural parenting" bloggers and authors who are peddling their pseudo-science are the very same who gave rise to the anti-vaccine movement. The same people who push the guilt over breast feeding based on some theoretical minimal benefit are the very same who deny the scientifically proven extremely beneficial impact that vaccines have had on our society.

 

[deleted171991]

The "natural parenting" industry is a billion dollar industry that preys on the anxieties that come with being a new parent. The anxieties of parents are now compounded even more with the ubiquity of social media. These "natural parenting" bloggers and authors who are peddling their pseudo-science are the very same who gave rise to the anti-vaccine movement. The same people who push the guilt over breast feeding based on some theoretical minimal benefit are the very same who deny the scientifically proven extremely beneficial impact that vaccines have had on our society.

So now I am an antivaxxer, just because I believe that breastfeeding is better for infants (especially for their immune systems)?

Btw, the big industrial complex is the one trying to replace breast milk with formula, because that's where the money is, not in promoting breastfeeding. They are also known as Big Pharma.

Oh, and I couldn't care less about "natural parenting" and other BS. Although I think we should feed our children much less factory-made fructose-enriched fodder, and give them real homemade food, fruits and vegetables. That may fix a big part of diabetes and childhood obesity, possibly even atopy.

 

[GravelRider]

So now I am an antivaxxer, just because I believe that breastfeeding is better for infants (especially for their immune systems)?

Btw, the big industrial complex is the one trying to replace breast milk with formula, because that's where the money is, not in promoting breastfeeding. They are also known as Big Pharma.

Oh, and I couldn't care less about "natural parenting" and other BS. Although I think we should feed our children much less factory-made fructose-enriched fodder, and give them real homemade food, fruits and vegetables. That may fix a big part of diabetes and childhood obesity, possibly even atopy.

They are born of the same movement.

I don't doubt that breast feeding provides some mild benefit. However, there are many situations where breast feeding is not possible. Parenting is hard enough without having to deal with guilt and shame that you are not doing right by your child. The depression, financial burden of lactation counselors (a fake job if I ever heard one), and trouble it can cause in marriages is not worth the minimal immune system benefits you get. I have put epidurals in many women who felt ashamed that they were requesting one when their sister or friend spent months telling them all about fake risks associated with epidurals. The bloggers, authors, and natural parenting cultists prey on fear and anxiety during a stressful time in someone's life. To me, that is just as bad as Big Pharma peddling formula with junk ingredients.

 

[deleted171991]

They are born of the same movement.

I don't doubt that breast feeding provides some mild benefit. However, there are many situations where breast feeding is not possible. Parenting is hard enough without having to deal with guilt and shame that you are not doing right by your child. The depression, financial burden of lactation counselors (a fake job if I ever heard one), and trouble it can cause in marriages is not worth the minimal immune system benefits you get. I have put epidurals in many women who felt ashamed that they were requesting one when their sister or friend spent months telling them all about fake risks associated with epidurals. The bloggers, authors, and natural parenting cultists prey on fear and anxiety during a stressful time in someone's life. To me, that is just as bad as Big Pharma peddling formula with junk ingredients.

Oh, the poor parturient who has had 6+ months to get informed about the best answer to all these questions (epidural, breastfeeding etc.), who has no will, who lives in the handmaid's tale, and is surrounded by all these predators. My heart is bleeding.

Maybe they should just ask their obstetrician and future pediatrician the appropriate questions, and follow their professional advice. Oh, wait, that would be common sense, and there has been recently a national shortage of it.

 

[nimbus]

Oh, the poor parturient who has had 6+ months to get informed about the best answer to all these questions (epidural, breastfeeding etc.), who has no will, who lives in the handmaid's tale, and is surrounded by all these predators. My heart is bleeding.

Maybe they should just ask their obstetrician and future pediatrician the appropriate questions, and follow their professional advice. Oh, wait, that would be common sense, and there has been recently a national shortage of it.

Hopefully they get the same advice we got from our pediatrician which boiled down to, "try to breast feed if you can, it's not a big deal if you can't."

 

[nimbus]

They are born of the same movement.

I don't doubt that breast feeding provides some mild benefit. However, there are many situations where breast feeding is not possible. Parenting is hard enough without having to deal with guilt and shame that you are not doing right by your child. The depression, financial burden of lactation counselors (a fake job if I ever heard one), and trouble it can cause in marriages is not worth the minimal immune system benefits you get. I have put epidurals in many women who felt ashamed that they were requesting one when their sister or friend spent months telling them all about fake risks associated with epidurals. The bloggers, authors, and natural parenting cultists prey on fear and anxiety during a stressful time in someone's life. To me, that is just as bad as Big Pharma peddling formula with junk ingredients.

Agree there is a complete bull**** industry built around child rearing that speaks more to emotion than reason.

 

[pjl]

Agree there is a complete bull**** industry built around child rearing that speaks more to emotion than reason.

Agree with this more than anything. Go to any of your friends' baby registry, it is comical.
Breastfeeding IS clearly better, and cheaper for the parents. However, formulas are a very close second. I dont buy that formula causes obesity/diabetes etc.
If you want to go really nuts, you should talk to the parents at my kids' school about ANY health issue. My wife and I just avoid all but the most worrisome health topics.
We are looked at like we are crazy for vaccinating our kids.
One dad had a clear high likelihood melanoma on his face, and spent 2 months trying alternative medicine after I told him to get it checked out, before finally getting biopsy and removal.
There are a few moms that run a breastfeeding support group that also happen to own an all natural parenting store.
Some families have their kids on "all natural hormone modulating" diets. Others are gluten/dairy/whatever free for behavioral issues.
There was a trend toward home water births for a bit, which I struggled (and failed) to deal with politely. Some moms are still mad at me about that...


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[epidural man]

my niece is in a graduate course as a counselor in which a midwife was brought in to "educate" the class on midwifery. My niece, being an intelligent individual, saw straight through the midwifes bullsh*t. Now she is asking me for some data to present to her class. This midwife repeatedly bashed hospitals and doctors. She also blamed epidurals for failure to breastfeed and substance abuse in later life. Wtf, substance abuse in later life? Now that's even new to me.

I'm going to arm my niece with some hard facts but I decided that I can help her more by enlisting those of you that might know some sites or online accurate information that I am not aware of.

Thanks

I get the idea of trying to straighten out misinformation.

But on the other hand...if I never do another labor epidural again, I'm good. I'm all for pushing the agenda of natural child births - for selfish reasons. Go Midwifery!

 

[epidural man]

Infants exposed to cow proteins are 15X more likely to develop type 1 DM. We need a better formula.

 

[dhb]

Infants exposed to cow proteins are 15X more likely to develop type 1 DM. We need a better formula.

Fo real? Doesn't add up, what's the cause?

 

[Mman]

Infants exposed to cow proteins are 15X more likely to develop type 1 DM. We need a better formula.

I'm no endocrinologist, but google tells me that is incorrect....

The hypothesis that early exposure of the infant to cow's milk (or lack of breast-feeding) predisposes the child to type 1 diabetes dates from the 1980s. It has important implications, but remains controversial because the evidence on which it is based has been indirect and is open to criticism. Two meta-analyses of multiple studies in which diabetes prevalence was associated retrospectively with infant feeding revealed only a marginal increase in relative risk. Two recent prospective studies found no apparent association between development of antibodies to islet antigens and feeding patterns in high-risk infants with a first-degree type 1 diabetic relative.

Also

This article discusses the role of factors related to infant nutrition in the development of β cell autoimmunity and type 1 diabetes and the potential mechanistic pathways involved. So far, no specific dietary factor has been shown to be an unequivocal risk factor for β cell autoimmunity or type 1 diabetes, and there are a number of contradictory observations with regard to the effect of various foods.

It's certainly not a 15x increase in risk when studies can't even decide if it's any increased risk at all.

 

[Noyac]

I get the idea of trying to straighten out misinformation.

But on the other hand...if I never do another labor epidural again, I'm good. I'm all for pushing the agenda of natural child births - for selfish reasons. Go Midwifery!

Wait a minute, your name here is "Epidural man".

 

[deleted162650]

Wait a minute, your name here is "Epidural man".

Ya, but he's referring to the ESI kind, not the kind that actually works.

 

[epidural man]

I'm no endocrinologist, but google tells me that is incorrect....

You should read this whole article (if you didn't already).

 

[epidural man]

Fo real? Doesn't add up, what's the cause?

Who knows.

I remember reading two articles on it a while ago...probably a huge exaggeration.

 

[Mman]

You should read this whole article (if you didn't already).

15x? I read quite a few articles that conflict with each other.

 

[epidural man]

15x? I read quite a few articles that conflict with each other.

I've copied a paragraph from one of the articles you cited.

I'm not sure the right answer, but there might be an association between early exposure to cow protein, and Type I DM.

Early introduction of cow milk proteins (ie, conventional infant formulas) has also been studied in relation to subsequent risk of β cell autoimmunity and type 1 diabetes. The introduction of infant formula reflects, in general, the mirror of the duration of exclusive breastfeeding. These studies have also produced contradictory outcomes (6); mainly, some surveys have indicated that early introduction of cow milk increases the risk of β cell autoimmunity (11, 12) and type 1 diabetes (13–15), whereas others have shown no association between those 2 phenomena (16, 17). The meta-analysis of case-control studies by Gerstein (7) implied that early exposure to cow milk proteins (<4 mo old) was a risk predictor of type 1 diabetes with an OR of 1.63. Early exposure to cow milk is related to shorter duration of breastfeeding. In a Finnish national case-control study (15), when both the duration of breastfeeding and the age at introduction of cow milk were studied, early exposure to cow milk turned out to be the dominant risk determinant of type 1 diabetes. Increased infant growth did not explain this association (18).

 

[freedonia]

Very interesting discussion! Thanks for posting the paragraph! I also find very different information.
Anyways I think that it is every mother's own choice on how to feed her baby. In my opinion, I know you cannot generalise, every mother wants the best for her baby. Every situation is different to the others. So I really trust in the choice of a mother!
freedonia

 

[ravena]

Spend enough years with a guilt wracked, sometimes to the point of becoming suicidal, mothers, who are being told it is their fault they just aren't doing enough of the right things to produce sufficient milk, and every woman CAN produce enough milk, and you might develop the same level of disdain that I have for lactivists, and their "breast is best" campaign.

There is only one industry who's profits rely solely and entirely on attempting to influence a woman's choice of how to feed her baby.

Yes, I met some mothers who were really in a place psychological state. They blame theirselves because they couldn't breastfeed. This is not the right way. As a mother you need energy for your child and you should not have to deal with judgments from others.
I'm also a formula baby and I turned out pretty well