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Trump's Twitter, if anyone is out of the loop, reveals an imminently implemented ban on transgendered service members from joining in any capacity
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Perhaps the best advice to say is that if one disagrees with the govt then he/she shouldn't have signed up to work for it
I'm not voicing an opinion either way, but transgender is considered a medical diagnosis. There are many medical diagnoses that are considered unfit for military service. It is not discrimination and has been upheld in court as such. The duties and requirements of the military make it impossible or seriously dangerous for some medical conditions to serve. Just some food for thought for those that look at this issue strictly through a political lens instead of a logistical one.
No, gender identity if not congruent with one's born gender, is not a medical diagnosis. There is no gender identity disorder anymore in DSM V. There is gender dysphoria only if one is distressed over their gender identity. I would be careful with the medical diagnosis argument, as it is not supported by the psychiatry community based on the DSM V.
What's the suicide rate for these people again? They are an incredible liability for any Commander and a terrible investment for the .Mil. They also usually have all sorts of psych comorbidities which are disqualifying. Remember they DQ people at MEPS for mild eczema.
These folks can play act all they want in civ land but absolutely should be banned from active service.
ex 61N
I don't think Japanese adults commit suicide at a rate 22 times higher than the average person. Time to go back to logic school, kid. In fact, I recall recently reading an article that talked about how content most Japanese were. Stunning, and shocking to me, because Japan is one of the least diverse and most ethnocentric places on earth. How could they be happy without diversity? Apparently there is so little crime that the police are having to find other ways to occupy themselves. I fervently hope that Uncle George Soros will set things right and the Japanese will get with the open borders program!
- ex 61N
Listen- you can blame their suicide rates on whatever you like. White supremacy is probably the real culprit. But the fact remains that-whatever the cause- their suicide rates are unacceptably high and THAT is what makes them a terrible risk/investment to an organization that deploys to austere locations, fights endless, pointless wars and already has a mental health/suicide epidemic in its non trans-gendered ranks. Nowhere in any of my posts did I comment on what I though makes them so likely to off themselves, although I have a supposition. You are just trying to run interference and re frame the argument. I'm talking about odds, probabilities and good sense.
Come talk to me when you have to go pronounce one of your guys who steals an M4 and suck starts it while sitting in a Hilux on a deserted corner of the FOB. On "suicide watch" no less.
- ex 61N
I agree with you that it all comes down to the numbers in the end. Taking causation out of the equation, my concern still stands that preventing all transgendered individuals from TRYING to enlist because they have a higher % of being suicidal is akin to preventing all white americans from enlisting because they as a group have a higher % of developing lou gehrig's disease. It is essentially stereotyping. I support perhaps letting transgendered individuals TRY to enlist & qualify according to the set military mental/physical standards instead of outright banning them.
If a type 1 diabetic has their must-be-refrigerated medication supply interrupted during a deployment, they die. Can't really say the same thing about transgender people and their meds.Can't suck the same crap in the trench if you need ongoing medication therapy. Same argument could be used for those with type 1 DM.
What if you're a couple struggling with infertility? The military doesn't cover your expenses. But if you're a woman who wants to go on hormone therapy to grow a beard and get a deeper voice, that we'll pay for?
Actually tricare covers sperm harvest (100% of the procedure), vasectomy reversals (100%), infertility work ups including HSG for women (100%), the medication for both men and women for assisted reproduction (clomid, etc 100%). There is out of pocket cost for lab fees for the actual procedures, but they are greatly reduced compared to civilian costs. IUI costs around $170/session, IVF is about $7k/cycle. Sperm banking you pay a little bit out of pocket as well.
I'm not upset about it being covered. The male factor infertility aspect of it generates cases for me, and it's very gratifying to help a couple who has been struggling to conceive actually conceive. It always just struck me as odd that it's covered.
So we shouldn't pay for their care but we should pay for HMC's cheeto induced OSA? Why allow women to serve when they are at risk for pregnancy any minute? This isn't about cost or suicide (I could just as easily argue that they are less likely to die in the .mil). The money involved here is trivial and keeping people from serving is not the same as keeping them from being TRICARE beneficiaries.
This is about the same response that made homosexuality such a controversy. Call that what you will.
My standard is simple. Worldwide deployable most of the time.
It's pretty interesting that Mattis' basically said he'd figure it out and then go back to the Orange. If the military had responded that way to prior presidents, it would have been a major story.
On a lighter note, I heard about a hemophiliac who made it into theater. He'd supposedly been getting factor injections through his parents insurance for the time he'd been in and came in to confess when he started bleeding. The story was he medevac'd thru LRMC a couple years before I was there.
See, and I agree here. So long as they pay their own medical bills (specific to their gender reassignment), game on.If a type 1 diabetic has their must-be-refrigerated medication supply interrupted during a deployment, they die. Can't really say the same thing about transgender people and their meds.
So we shouldn't pay for their care but we should pay for HMC's cheeto induced OSA?
Yes.(its remarkable the .mil survived what blacks, women and gays were each going to do to good order and discipline).
If a transgendered person goes off their hormones in a high stress deployment environment, how long until they're psychologically unable to perform? 4 hour patrols can turn into 48 hour wait for EOD patrols quickly.If a type 1 diabetic has their must-be-refrigerated medication supply interrupted during a deployment, they die. Can't really say the same thing about transgender people and their meds.
The reason someone is transgendered is possibly not the same reason to why they are suicidal. If anything, the higher suicide rate could be due to how poorly people treat them.
The logic provided means that hypothetically the military should also disqualify ethnic Japanese because of the suicide stereotype, would it not?
That being said, I'm supportive if there is convincing evidence that there is truly something unfit for service associated with being transgendered in and of itself
I agree. Cost isn't a valid argument. We wasted more money in a week than I would cost to provide those services for the same amount of time.My point is that the line is being drawn here for reasons other than cost. There's no one clamoring to make people pay $100k for HCV treatment despite most of that epidemic being due to high risk behaviors. If it was free to the govt, they would just move on to the other tropes (its remarkable the .mil survived what blacks, women and gays were each going to do to good order and discipline).
I heard about a hemophiliac who made it into theater. He'd supposedly been getting factor injections through his parents insurance for the time he'd been in and came in to confess when he started bleeding. The story was he medevac'd thru LRMC a couple years before I was there.
(its remarkable the .mil survived what blacks, women and gays were each going to do to good order and discipline).
If a transgendered person goes off their hormones in a high stress deployment environment, how long until they're psychologically unable to perform? 4 hour patrols can turn into 48 hour wait for EOD patrols quickly.
I agree. Cost isn't a valid argument. We wasted more money in a week than I would cost to provide those services for the same amount of time.
If a FtM transgendered soldier stops hormones, how long until they can't lift their 180lb battle buddy with full kit? If a MtF soldier stops hormones, how long until they have to shave? And for both categories, how long until their gender dysphoria comes back? It's hardly unreasonable to consider. Every team is a LRP team with counter-insurgency ops. I wouldn't send an asthmatic with them, or a T1DM, or even an OSA patient. And all of those examples should go through an MEB.this deployment (not my unit) there was a soldier who developed DKA. was a pre-existing type 1 whose wife was mailing him his insulin. can't make this stuff up.
+1
acute estrogen withdrawal? acute testosterone withdrawal? what are you arguing? last I checked withdrawing from hormones (unless you have CAH) is probably better than the guy with HTN who goes off his 3 meds, the one with depression/PTSD on SSRI who goes off his, the one with BPH who goes off his, etc. those are case ive seen this go around. I'm sure there are others. also, news flash, there are people who are "psychologically unable to perform" their duties who have no medical issues and whose jobs are working in a DFAC or filing papers. the inability to cope with stress is not transgender specific.
if they simply killed off USFHP they'd have their money right there, lol.
--your friendly neighborhood 70 days or so to go caveman
If a FtM transgendered soldier stops hormones, how long until they can't lift their 180lb battle buddy with full kit? If a MtF soldier stops hormones, how long until they have to shave? And for both categories, how long until their gender dysphoria comes back? It's hardly unreasonable to consider. Every team is a LRP team with counter-insurgency ops. I wouldn't send an asthmatic with them, or a T1DM, or even an OSA patient. And all of those examples should go through an MEB.
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If a transgendered person goes off their hormones in a high stress deployment environment, how long until they're psychologically unable to perform? 4 hour patrols can turn into 48 hour wait for EOD patrols quickly.
One of many, honestly. They're an incredibly small minority that will consume medical resources faster even then the malingerer trying to get out of PT. The military requires they get a surgery to change gender, and that alone will make them non-deployable for at least 6 months for what's essentially a cosmetic change. Even after said surgery, their suicide rate is higher than 11Bs returning from combat. And they're adding what to our capabilities? They're just another guy or girl? Doesn't justify the costs at all.LOL, that's your argument?!?
That's like arguing that black people shouldn't be allowed to serve because there's no reliable supply of fried chicken and watermelon out in the field. Both arguments are specious, founded in ignorance, and well over the line of gratuitous offensiveness to both groups.
One of many, honestly.
And they're adding what to our capabilities?
Doesn't justify the costs at all.
FWIW, the last time we won a war was when the .Mil wasn't integrated and women were in a separate corps, so maybe we should go back to that setup, if the function of the .Mil is even to win wars these days.
One of many, honestly. They're an incredibly small minority that will consume medical resources faster even then the malingerer trying to get out of PT. The military requires they get a surgery to change gender, and that alone will make them non-deployable for at least 6 months for what's essentially a cosmetic change. Even after said surgery, their suicide rate is higher than 11Bs returning from combat. And they're adding what to our capabilities? They're just another guy or girl? Doesn't justify the costs at all.
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FWIW, the last time we won a war was when the .Mil wasn't integrated and women were in a separate corps, so maybe we should go back to that setup, if the function of the .Mil is even to win wars these days.
- ex 61N
He's not? He said, "The military requires they get a surgery to change gender". That's just not true.He's not talking about mandating surgery on these people.
- ex 61N
Given how little formal psychiatric training is found in literally any residency other than psychiatry,* the mental health stereotyping and misunderstanding doesn't surprise me.
B...
* = I've read stats that somewhere around 20% of primary care visits are primarily for mental health reasons, yet to my knowledge, family practice residencies don't require even a month of psych. Head scratcher...
Interesting. Had no idea ENT was such a big component of primary care.Well, they spend essentially no time in ENT, and that's an even larger percentage. Which explains the insane crap I see done for people. It's a conundrum. This is why primary care is being overrun by mid-levels. People just want a referral.
Interesting. Had no idea ENT was such a big component of primary care.
Interestingly, I actually just saw an ENT guy and he mentioned how much of HIS patient-base is psych as well.
Given how little formal psychiatric training is found in literally any residency other than psychiatry,* the mental health stereotyping and misunderstanding doesn't surprise me.
But for a forum with a bunch of doctors on it, I'm a little taken aback by the loose grip on the facts of some of the medical stuff (e.g.: A few of us might be overestimating the power of a hormone pill, no?)