How to improve chances

[Surgneuro]

-State med school, no home program.
-Step 1: 220s
-lot of ECs (don't know if it matters)
-1 basic neuroscience pub, 1 poster, 1 oral presentation during med school. 1 poster from undergrad. Should be getting a clinical pub soon

Been set on neurosurgery since day 1 so obviously been down about my step score. What can I do to improve my chances?

No geographical restrictions at all, I'll train anywhere. Willing to take a research year if absolutely necessary.

Thank you.

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[mw18]

I'm no expert, but I would study extremely hard and kill Step 2. 50% (11/22) of people with scores in the 220's matched in the 2016 data, and you have to assume they have a home program and are connected. So you're going to have to do enough to make up for that. Look at the data, and come up with ways to be better than average on these things. http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-US-Allopathic-Seniors-2016.pdf

A research year probably wouldn't hurt you (with neurosurgery) as long as it's productive, but taking a year off for a specialty you won't match in wouldn't be good either.

 

[Surgneuro]

I'm no expert, but I would study extremely hard and kill Step 2. 50% (11/22) of people with scores in the 220's matched in the 2016 data, and you have to assume they have a home program and are connected. So you're going to have to do enough to make up for that. Look at the data, and come up with ways to be better than average on these things. http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-US-Allopathic-Seniors-2016.pdf

A research year probably wouldn't hurt you (with neurosurgery) as long as it's productive, but taking a year off for a specialty you won't match in wouldn't be good either.

Thanks for the response. I find it hard to put value in the 50% match rate for 220s since it's such a small applicant pool and that can vary quite a bit from year to year. I definitely agree though that those people probably had strong connections.

What should I be shooting for on Step 2?

 

[mw18]

Thanks for the response. I find it hard to put value in the 50% match rate for 220s since it's such a small applicant pool and that can vary quite a bit from year to year. I definitely agree though that those people probably had strong connections.

What should I be shooting for on Step 2? Honestly, I feel like an imposter because the people around me (faculty, advisors, peers) think I'm near the top of the class in terms of intelligence and then I underperformed on standardized tests like always. It's gotten in my head and killed my confidence/self-morale. Sorry to rant.

I think if you get a neurosurgery average step 2 score to go along with solid grades and evals the people looking at your application will be more inclined to believe the evals than step 1. But keep in mind I've never gone through the process, so I'm not sure. You're obviously going to have to do aways at some point, but neurosurgeons and residents in this forum would be much more help about whether you should apply into neurosurgery and how to go about it if so. Best of luck, though. I know getting a disappointing score back had to be disheartening.

 

[Surgneuro]

I think if you get a neurosurgery average step 2 score to go along with solid grades and evals the people looking at your application will be more inclined to believe the evals than step 1. But keep in mind I've never gone through the process, so I'm not sure. You're obviously going to have to do aways at some point, but neurosurgeons and residents in this forum would be much more help about whether you should apply into neurosurgery and how to go about it if so. Best of luck, though. I know getting a disappointing score back had to be disheartening.

Thank you, will definitely work on crushing Step 2.

 

[bannie22]

difficult. Step 2 probably wont play that huge of a role.
ECs do not play a major role either.
i would focus on more research and developing a strong relationship with your chairman and various attendings and get lots of support especially at your home institution.

 

[SurgeDO]

as others have said, you need to step up your research (not that your research is bad as it is). you can get into a program with that score if you have some solid research to back it. pubs, pubs, pubs, pubs, pubs, baby!

good luck, dude.

 

[Surgneuro]

difficult. Step 2 probably wont play that huge of a role.
ECs do not play a major role either.
i would focus on more research and developing a strong relationship with your chairman and various attendings and get lots of support especially at your home institution.

Thanks for the insight, don't have a home program unfortunately.

as others have said, you need to step up your research (not that your research is bad as it is). you can get into a program with that score if you have some solid research to back it. pubs, pubs, pubs, pubs, pubs, baby!

good luck, dude.

Definitely trying to jump on some research projects. Thanks for your help!

 

[axiomofchoice]

Agree with above

Increase step 2 (>250) to make Step 1 look like anomaly.

Publications are key - everything else is mostly fluff (LOR, extra curricular ...)

 

[kitsunepixie]

I wish you the best...most programs won't even look at an application with a Step 1 less than their own predetermined score...not that I feel that is right but every year it gets more competitive.

 

[Surgneuro]

I wish you the best...most programs won't even look at an application with a Step 1 less than their own predetermined score...not that I feel that is right but every year it gets more competitive.

Any idea roughly what these cutoffs are? I imagine most are 230+. Also, are you a neurosurgery resident?

 

[IlyaR]

Agree with above

Increase step 2 (>250) to make Step 1 look like anomaly.

Publications are key - everything else is mostly fluff (LOR, extra curricular ...)

I was under the impression that LORs are the most important part of ERAS for NSG


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[kitsunepixie]

Any idea roughly what these cutoffs are? I imagine most are 230+. Also, are you a neurosurgery resident?

Yes, 230+.

Attending.

 

[Surgneuro]

Yes, 230+.

Attending.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, there are few nsg attendings/residents who are active on these boards so I really appreciate it. Do you mind sharing if you're at a community or academic program and how you all evaluate/rank applicants (what factors matters most, do you separate applicants into tiers based on Step 1, etc)? I know the process varies from institution but it would be helpful to hear. If you can't due to privacy issues, no worries at all.

 

[Surgneuro]

I was under the impression that LORs are the most important part of ERAS for NSG


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I wouldn't consider LORs as fluff. Generally speaking, I have heard that they often don't help you but can certainly hurt you. I think while that may be true for other fields, neurosurgery is very small and your LORs probably carry more weight than in other fields. Of course, I'm going through the process now so could be totally off.

 

[IlyaR]

I wouldn't consider LORs as fluff. Generally speaking, I have heard that they often don't help you but can certainly hurt you. I think while that may be true for other fields, neurosurgery is very small and your LORs probably carry more weight than in other fields. Of course, I'm going through the process now so could be totally off.

According to the NRMP LORs from NSG faculty carried an importance rating of 4.7, Step 1 scores were 4.4 by comparison, as rated by PDs

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PD-Survey-Report-2014.pdf

 

[kitsunepixie]

Thanks for taking the time to respond, there are few nsg attendings/residents who are active on these boards so I really appreciate it. Do you mind sharing if you're at a community or academic program and how you all evaluate/rank applicants (what factors matters most, do you separate applicants into tiers based on Step 1, etc)? I know the process varies from institution but it would be helpful to hear. If you can't due to privacy issues, no worries at all.

You're welcome. Back in my day there was Uncle Harvey...

Academic.

Step 1 score gets your application looked at...235+. Step 2 is less cared about but try to destroy it. LOR are key. Getting Honors on Surgery and Internal Medicine. Research, especially first author pubs (strangely, the most interest I got was on papers I did in Plastics/craniofacial). Being a good golfer or ex-NFL is a plus (being somewhat facetious). And something that matters more than what you would think--being liked by the residents. The attendings don't know jack about the students, so they ask the residents for dirt. When I was a senior resident and got to be involved in the ranking process, the residents' dislike for the attendings' first pick moved him down to #6 and a very nice young man with the same stats who was much quieter who we all liked ended up matching with us. Residents have also gotten arrogant, out-for-themselves sub-is sent home from a few programs.

 

[Surgneuro]

You're welcome. Back in my day there was Uncle Harvey...

Academic.

Step 1 score gets your application looked at...235+. Step 2 is less cared about but try to destroy it. LOR are key. Getting Honors on Surgery and Internal Medicine. Research, especially first author pubs (strangely, the most interest I got was on papers I did in Plastics/craniofacial). Being a good golfer or ex-NFL is a plus (being somewhat facetious). And something that matters more than what you would think--being liked by the residents. The attendings don't know jack about the students, so they ask the residents for dirt. When I was a senior resident and got to be involved in the ranking process, the residents' dislike for the attendings' first pick moved him down to #6 and a very nice young man with the same stats who was much quieter who we all liked ended up matching with us. Residents have also gotten arrogant, out-for-themselves sub-is sent home from a few programs.

Yeah, after Uncley Harvey there was nsgapplicants and now there's Neurosurgery Hub.

Thanks for the insight, will definitely try to impress the residents.