How do we stop the opening of new schools?

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Farcus

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I always thought about this, what can the people within the profession do to stop the opening of new schools? Why can't there be a law set in ACPE to limit new schools?

Serious replies, no trolls.

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I don't know. We couldn't stop UNT and we won't stop UT-Tyler no matter what the student chapters at Texas and UH do or say. Nothing is more powerless than the NCPA chapter at the University of Texas.
 
Is there not a pro-"real pharmacist" organization or is there not enough money or investment in lobbying?

From my experience in florida, we just don't have the money cause we can't even get every pharmacist to pay $1 to the Florida Pharmacy Association. But then I think there are a lot of pharmacy organizations that are really there to take as much money as possible and actually go against what should be actually happening.

Of course my views are extremely naive and narrow, anyone with a bigger picture?
 
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Write your congressman to repeal the Sherman Antitrust Act (15 U.S.C. §§ 1-7).

Only then will ACPE attain the legal right to regulate the # of schools.
 
its not realistic to "stop" opening of new schools....but it is very realistic to MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT for new schools to open.
 
its not realistic to "stop" opening of new schools....but it is very realistic to MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT for new schools to open.

Nope. Same concept applies. A proposed school that encounters such friction would have legal standing to challenge the accrediting body...and they'd probably win.

Some light reading on this subject. ACPE is mentioned here, albeit a different time and place:

http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4260&context=lcp

EDIT: Another article on the ABA http://digitalcommons.law.wustl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1420&context=lawreview

These articles actually support the view that ACPE can unilaterally push forward additional regulations without fear of litigation, but those requirements must be equally applied to all programs. The tricky balance that exists requires implementing new regulations that existing schools can comply with but increases the barrier to entry of new programs.

Law of unintended consequences would apply though, new schools would just throw money to solve the extra barrier and pass the cost along to consumers.

Also, should a regulation go too far and catch existing schools, they too could choose litigation as a means to rectify the situation.
 
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You would have to either start requiring residencies, make the board exams much tougher and much more comprehensive, or both.

I'm fine with the "both" option. There are a lot of dumb as a box of bricks pharmacists out there I'd like to eliminate from the profession.
 
You would have to either start requiring residencies, make the board exams much tougher and much more comprehensive, or both.

I'm fine with the "both" option. There are a lot of dumb as a box of bricks pharmacists out there I'd like to eliminate from the profession.

What profile of such pharmacists do the "dumb as a box of bricks" pharmacists fall into? Are they typically recent graduates from newly opened schools? I agree that the board exams should be made much tougher.
 
What profile of such pharmacists do the "dumb as a box of bricks" pharmacists fall into? Are they typically recent graduates from newly opened schools? I agree that the board exams should be made much tougher.

Well, in the last year or so, I've seen Philly College of Pharmacy and Temple grads make unbelievable errors. Everyone makes minor errors, sure, but some of the stuff takes a conscious amount of stupid to try. I probably shouldn't give specifics. One older pharmacist they stuck me with for a week just didn't know how drugs worked at all. If people needed counseling, he'd just read the pamphlet to them. In front of them. Literally reading to them. He got fired after one week for leaving in the middle of his shift and going to Dunkin Donuts or McDonalds every night at 3AM. He somehow messed my pharmacy up so badly in 7 nights, I saw the effects for months.

Honestly, I don't really work with kids from the new schools. The boss man just doesn't seem to hire them...that or they just don't come around my store often.
 
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You would have to either start requiring residencies, make the board exams much tougher and much more comprehensive, or both.

I'm fine with the "both" option. There are a lot of dumb as a box of bricks pharmacists out there I'd like to eliminate from the profession.

Requiring residencies can't happen until there as many residency positions as graduates from "legitimate" schools. How many do you think that is? I know ~50% of match registrants did not match last year (~2500/5200), and less than half of the 2012 graduates (~13,000) registered for the match. Assuming you respond with "13,000 is too many graduates - they should limit it down to 10,000" (something with which, I don't necessarily disagree) you'd still be proposing that 7,500 new residency positions become available. It's a logistical impossibility. The only way it could happen is if every community pharmacist is considered a "resident" for their first year so that chains could save $70,000 on their salary, and the workforce would turn out equally terrible but further in debt.
 
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I think the ACPE should ban paying for preceptorship. That'll solve a lot of issues IMO.
 
You would have to either start requiring residencies, make the board exams much tougher and much more comprehensive, or both.

I'm fine with the "both" option. There are a lot of dumb as a box of bricks pharmacists out there I'd like to eliminate from the profession.

I am actually very surprised that our board is as easy as it is. I been told 30-40% is simpley calculations that doesn't really play into much consideration for retail or clinical setting. Is there a reason why the NAPLEX is relatively so easy? I mean every other health discipline other than RN has two or more step board that is solely concentrated on basic science+basic clinical knowledge.

Requiring residency would only be realistic in hospital setting, the profession as a whole will not take this kindly or lightly. I think it is a waste for community pharmacist to do a PGY1 tbh, and Im not trying to insinuate anything about community PGY1.
 
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Whenever the well-paying jobs dry up, so will the new programs. I don't think that'll happen unilaterally though, because the chains will always have turnover.
 
I think the ACPE should ban paying for preceptorship. That'll solve a lot of issues IMO.

Whenever the well-paying jobs dry up, so will the new programs. I don't think that'll happen unilaterally though, because the chains will always have turnover.

If new schools continue to pass the cost of paying preceptors to students, then prospective students will eventually be priced out of the profession. Rising tuition costs also helps bring the market back to equilibrium - not that it is good for us current students, though.
 
If new schools continue to pass the cost of paying preceptors to students, then prospective students will eventually be priced out of the profession. Rising tuition costs also helps bring the market back to equilibrium - not that it is good for us current students, though.

Like it has for law schools & lawyers?

The problem is, as long as their is "free" college loans & little knowledge of compound interest, students will continue taking about larger & larger loans, not realizing what the debt load will do to their life, until its too late.

At this point, there aren't any easy answers. Cut off federal loans, and only the rich will be able to afford college--tuition would eventually drop, but the poor would still be priced out and unable to get private loans. However, as long as the federal government is giving out loans to anyone & everyone, college tuition will continue to rise, because there is no feedback from consumers to keep the price down. Perhaps a starting solution would be for the federal government to be much more picky about the loans they give out--perhaps only finance a certain number of each major each year, based on projected employment needs (honestly, I don't think they federal government would do a good job at this, but its got to be better than what they are currently doing.)
 
WTF? Why would me or any other preceptor do it if we weren't getting paid for it or getting free labor out of it?

Uh, my school does not pay a single preceptor and if they use the students as a tech, they are cut from the preceptorship program. We still have a TON of preceptors - and good ones - because good pharmacists want to teach good students.
 
WTF? Why would me or any other preceptor do it if we weren't getting paid for it or getting free labor out of it?

I am sure you make a great preceptor.

Uh, my school does not pay a single preceptor and if they use the students as a tech, they are cut from the preceptorship program. We still have a TON of preceptors - and good ones - because good pharmacists want to teach good students.

Well said. :thumbup:
 
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I tabulated the entering class sizes of 109 of the 127 US pharmacy schools for fall of 2012.
The average of 104 known class sizes is 110. Extrapolating gives 14,000 grads per year. The raw data below has two columns. The first is class size. The second is the minimum PCAT percentile or GPA. The standards are quite low, probably to scoop as many admission fees as possible. The actual scores/gps of accepted students is higher in most cases. At the bottom I present the class sizes for the California and Florida. Bear in mind, in 1995 the state of Florida was graduating 300/year in a booming market. Now it's 900 in a depressed market.

1. Albany College of Pharmacy - Albany, NY 200 2.5
2. Albany College of Pharmacy - Colchester, VT 70 2.5
3. Appalachian College of Pharmacy VA 78 2.5 gpa
4. Auburn University 145 40th percentile
5. Belmont University TN 75 3.0
6. Butler University IN 130 55th
7. California Northstate College of Pharmacy 104 2.8 gpa
8. Campbell University NC 108 2.5 gpa
9. Chicago State University 90 no minimum
10. Notre Dame of Maryland University 70 50th
11. Concordia University Wisconsin 85 50th percentile
12. Creighton University NE 190 50th
13. Drake University IA 110 50
14. D'Youville College NY 72 no minimum pcat
15. East Tennessee State University 80 3.45 pga
16. Ferris State University MI 150 50th
17. Harding University AK 60 2.75
18. Howard University d.c. 70 2.5
19. Husson University Maine 65 3.5
20. Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine PA 143 no minim
21. Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine FL included in above
22. Lipscomb University TN 75 45th percentile
23. Loma Linda University CA 85 3.45
24. Long Island University 206 3.0
25. Massachusetts College of Pharmacy Boston 320 3.0
26. Massachusetts College of Pharmacy NH 310 2.7
27. Massachusetts College of Pharmacy Worcester included in Worcester
28. Mercer University GA 150 50th
29. Midway College KY 80 no minum
30. Midwestern University - Chicago 214 2.5
31. Midwestern University - Glendale AZ 150 2.5
32. Northeast Ohio Medical University 81 50th
33. Nova Southeastern University FL 200 2.5
34. Oregon State University 85 3.5
35. Pacific University Oregon 101 2.7
36 Palm Beach Atlantic University FL 75 50th
37. Philadelphia College GA 115 40th
38. Presbyterian College SC 80 2.75
39. Purdue University 150 3.3
40. Regis University CO 75 30th
41. Roosevelt University IL 68 40th
42. Rosalind Franklin University IL 70 2.5
43. University of Saint Joseph CT 80 2.8
44. Samford University AL 128 2.75
45. Shenandoah University VA 85 2.0
46. South College TN 75
47. South University (GA) 155 2.7
48. Southern Illinois University ????
49. St. John Fisher College NY 80 70th
50. St. Louis College MO 230 50th
51. Temple University PA 150 3.0
52. The Ohio State University 130 50th
53. University of Hawaii 90 no minum
54. University of Louisiana 75 2.75
55. University of New Mexico 85 30 percentile
56. University of North Carolina 180 65
57. University of Tennessee 175 2.5
58. Thomas Jefferson University PA 75 50th
59. Touro College (NY) 100 2.0
60. Touro University (CA) 100 2.75
61. Union University TN 60 40th
62. University at Buffalo 125 3.0
63. University of California - San Diego 60 3.0
64. University of California - San Francisco 122 2.8
65. University of Charleston WV 80 2.75
66. University of Cincinnati 98 3.0
67. University of Colorado 160 50th
68. University of Connecticut 100 60th
69. University of Florida 300 70th
70. University of Illinois - Chicago 210 70th
71. University of Iowa 108 2.5
72. University of Kentucky 135 2.5
73. University of Maryland 159 70th
74. University of Maryland Eastern Shore 64 40th
75. University of Michigan 85 50th
76. University of Minnesota 167 70th
77. University of Mississippi 115 3.4
78. University of Nebraska 60 3.0
79. University of New England Maine 100 35th
80. University of Oklahoma 120 50th
81. University of Pittsburgh 108 70th
82. University of South Florida 100 3.4
83. University of Southern California John Stauffer 190 3.0
84. University of the Incarnate Word TX 100 2.5
85. University of the Pacific CA 209 2.7
86. University of the Sciences in Philadelphia 272 75th
87. University of Utah 60 65th
88. University of Washington WA 100 2.9
89. University of Wisconsin 140 3.0
90. University of Wyoming 52 2.8
91. Virginia Commonwealth University 140 3.4
92. Washington State University 125 3.0
93. Wayne State University Michigan 100 50th
94. West Virginia University 90 60th
95. Western New England University Massachusetts 75 2.8
96. Western University CA 120 2.75
97. Wingate University NC 108 3.0 . 98. Texas Tech University 155 3.0
99. Cedarville University OH 65 50th
100. University of Arkansas 120 30th
101. University of Missouri 123 2.75
102. Fairleigh Dickinson University NJ 85 2.75
103. University of Puerto Rico 44 2.75
104. University of Houston 110 60th
105. Manchester University IN 70 2.5
106. Marshall University WV ??? 2.75
107. American University WV ?? 2.5
108. West Coast University CA 70 2.75
109. FAMU 150 110. Idaho State University ??
111. University of Kansas ?
112. Sullivan University KY ?
113. Xavier University of Louisiana ?
114. Northeastern University ?
115. University of Montana ?
116. Rutgers ?
117. St. John's University NY ?
118. North Dakota State University ?
119. Ohio Northern University ?
120. University of Toledo ?
121. Southwestern Oklahoma State University ?
122. Duquesne University PA ?
123. Wilkes University PA ?
124. University of Rhode Island ?
125. South Dakota State University ?
126. Texas Southern University ?
127. Hampton University VA ?


Average Class size of 104 known classes: 110

Extrapolating for 127 schools approximately 13970 grads/year


For California
__________________________________________

University of California - San Diego 60
University of Southern California John Stauffer 190
Western University CA 120
Loma Linda University CA 85
University of California - San Francisco 122
Touro University (CA) 100
University of the Pacific CA 209
California Northstate College of Pharmacy 104
West Coast University CA 70
_________

950




For Florida
_____________________________________________

University of Florida 300
University of South Florida 100
Nova Southeastern University FL 200
Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine FL ?
Palm Beach Atlantic University FL 75
Florida A&M 150
________

about 900

Where did you get this data by the way?
 
You have look at migration too, # of licenses granted each year will probably give you a better idea of the saturation issues in a particular state.

For example, I don't show up in any of the California school #'s but I'm definitely here taking up space/someone's job.

Conversely, license data won't give you a complete picture, many pharmacists are licensed in multiple states but only actively work in one.
 
Given grumps' data and that approximately 27% of pharmacists are older than 55, the following situation will be upon the profession in 10 years. If they retire by an average age of 65, then 270,000 (current # of pharmacists) minus 70,000 (# retired in 10 years) is 200,000. 15,000 graduates per year on average over 10 years is 150,000 + 200,000 remaining. Approximately 350,000 pharmacists will be licensed in 2023. Hmm... don't know if the market can support all those RPh's.
 
Given grumps' data and that approximately 27% of pharmacists are older than 55, the following situation will be upon the profession in 10 years. If they retire by an average age of 65, then 270,000 (current # of pharmacists) minus 70,000 (# retired in 10 years) is 200,000. 15,000 graduates per year on average over 10 years is 150,000 + 200,000 remaining. Approximately 350,000 pharmacists will be licensed in 2023. Hmm... don't know if the market can support all those RPh's.

Except this doesn't account for the pharmacists who retire and take per diem positions elsewhere. There's a pharmacist at my hospital collecting a 100k pension from his former employer while working 24 hours a week here collecting $75/hr.
 
I still think trying to tamp down enrollment at schools is the wrong way to do it. Not only is there a huge legal burden to overcome, the effort to do so won't yield robust results.

If you put all your strength in keeping one school from opening..great, you just kept ~80 people from entering the workforce in 4 years.

If you put all your strength in lobbying for expanded pharmacy services at the state level, you just generated x # of jobs; if you link up with a champion physician at your hospital, you just generated another FTE at your hospital. Multiply this by the # of hospitals in a state and you'll notice you'll have a bigger impact.

Generating demand for pharmacy services is a much easier/effective way to ease the surplus problem.
 
I always thought about this, what can the people within the profession do to stop the opening of new schools? Why can't there be a law set in ACPE to limit new schools?

Serious replies, no trolls.

Open 200 more pharmacy schools. Problem solved. The more jobless grads, the more word of mouth will spread to not go into pharmacy. Negative feedback hopefully,.
 
Open 200 more pharmacy schools. Problem solved. The more jobless grads, the more word of mouth will spread to not go into pharmacy. Negative feedback hopefully,.

Fine by me, that's like thousands of faculty jobs...haha.
 
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