How bad is the job market in your area?

[VA77]

This profession is not a "profession" anymore. The BOP's might as well roll over and license the chain pharmacies themselves and major hospital systems that are affiliated with the state in which they reside.

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[PharmDminus]

Is this really true? The pharmacist I worked with as a tech went to a top 4 pharm school 20 years ago and said you only needed straight B's to get in. That school has an average gpa of 3.4 today.

i remember a friend of mine applied with me in '04, she had a 3.8 prepharm gpa and scored a 75 on PCAT and got rejected

 

[PharmtoCS]

^ you can get straight C's and get in today. Either that or majority C's with many D's and F's and a sprinkle of B's.

 

[CMUchicka]

^ you can get straight C's and get in today. Either that or majority C's with many D's and F's and a sprinkle of B's.

I heard my school accepted pretty much everyone, now they are seeing result of it. From what i heard, majority of class is struggling and they just started the program. Its sad and scary!

 

[statepharmagent]

I heard my school accepted pretty much everyone, now they are seeing result of it. From what i heard, majority of class is struggling and they just started the program. Its sad and scary!

A friend of mine works at a highly ranked pharmacy school (not that it means anything) and is part of the admission board. He says the school tries hard to just cherry pick all the high gpa and high scoring students before other schools get to them. They get pretty much automatic admission even if they sound like a total idiot on interviews since they want these students badly to accept as soon as possible. Whether or not they have even seen an actual pharmacy or know what pharmacy is about doesnt even matter as long as it will help the school keep their "average stats" for admitted students high since these students with 3.5+ gpas are applying less and less each year. Top schools are getting desperate for these students since their yearly averages keep on dropping and the quality of students applying are poorer by the year. I can totally see how the rest of the other pharmacy school start picking and taking students from the bottom of the barrel to fill their seats.

 

[quickpic007]

A friend of mine works at a highly ranked pharmacy school (not that it means anything) and is part of the admission board. He says the school tries hard to just cherry pick all the high gpa and high scoring students before other schools get to them. They get pretty much automatic admission even if they sound like a total idiot on interviews since they want these students badly to accept as soon as possible. Whether or not they have even seen an actual pharmacy or know what pharmacy is about doesnt even matter as long as it will help the school keep their "average stats" for admitted students high since these students with 3.5+ gpas are applying less and less each year. Top schools are getting desperate for these students since their yearly averages keep on dropping and the quality of students applying are poorer by the year. I can totally see how the rest of the other pharmacy school start picking and taking students from the bottom of the barrel to fill their seats.

Totally!! In a neighboring state there is like only 140 applicants for 70 seats in the RX program. And that is a good public program too...2 years ago 95 applicants for 65 seats. Its just too darn easy now haha

 

[Abby Atwood]

Totally!! In a neighboring state there is like only 140 applicants for 70 seats in the RX program. And that is a good public program too...2 years ago 95 applicants for 65 seats. Its just too darn easy now haha

I'm confused. Acceptance rate is down from 2 years ago. Acceptance rate now is 50% compared to 68% two years ago. Seems like it's harder now. Granted, those are both pretty high acceptance rates.

 

[steveysmith54]

Is this really true? The pharmacist I worked with as a tech went to a top 4 pharm school 20 years ago and said you only needed straight B's to get in. That school has an average gpa of 3.4 today.

No I am making it all up....
It's pure numbers game.... there used to be even more applicants for four pharmacy schools in CA compared to 13 that we currently have. Of course some would not gain a seat first time applying. Prior pharmacy experience was valued a lot. Sure, some would go out of state, mainly to Nevada and Oregon.

 

[confettiflyer]

I feel like a "back in myyyyy day" and "get off my lawn!" are in order


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[quickpic007]

I'm confused. Acceptance rate is down from 2 years ago. Acceptance rate now is 50% compared to 68% two years ago. Seems like it's harder now. Granted, those are both pretty high acceptance rates.

Yes I think the 68% was just an off year, but come on! 140 applicants for 70 seats...Average pcat 62...
There is no sacrifice really in applying anymore. The sacrifice now is on the back end hustling for work for many new grads.

 

[Apotheker2015]

Okay, I feel like I just read a thread of hot garbage.
"Can I live on 120k"? You're goddamn right you can! Let's not forget teachers with families live on $40k.

Excuse me-- if you bought a Bugatti right out of school and had 9 kids, then you may have mild difficulty living better than most Americans on your pharmacist salary lol.

Yes, the job market is saturated, but it sounds like the people with major difficulty are in California or somewhere on the east coast.
What about everywhere else? What continually growing Phoenix? Colorado?

Also, everyone here whines about retail so damn much. Hey, here's $120,000 now deal with the occasional upset patient, give some vaccinations, and give candy to your techs. Yeah you have to meet metrics, but it seems like a relatively easy job compared to hospital.

Please someone tell me what I'm missing here.

What you are missing is obvious... STUDENT LOANS!!! Also 120K is not really 120K. After taxes and loan payments, you have about half of that left over to plan for retirement and life in general.

 

[Apotheker2015]

:LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL

Yes, and there were people telling you the same thing when you were considering pharmacy school. Why did you completely ignore them and enter pharmacy school? Why do you think todays prospective pharmacy students are any different than you were back then?



Yup, we already have that happening. Posting history can be quite interesting.



Pharmacy is a LOOOONG way away from being equivalent to an art history degree. Seriously.

Bidingmytime... PAtoPharm is almost a P2 now...

They can, the problem is loans. Too many people take out a huge mortgage, car loans, enroll their children in private schools.....all of this based on a $240,000/yr income. When that income is cut in half, it takes time and a lot of work to downgrade living experiences (first, find someone to buy their house and hopefully they don't end up underwater, then find a cheaper house/apt to move into, then pay all the moving expenses, second, sell their cars and most certainly take a big loss on it, and then have enough left over to buy a used car, not to mention the time it takes to find a suitable used car, 3rd depending on the private school contract they might not just be able to immediately pull their children out....not to mention all the headaches and school issues involved with changing schools in the middle of the year.) So I completely sympathize with what the OP is saying, if someone's income is suddenly cut in half, that is not an easy adjustment to make.



Some would call it punishment, but you know to-ma-toe, to-mah-toe



I have considerable experience working both, and they are both difficult jobs. Both jobs require high intellectual engagement to keep from killing a patient. There are differences, multitasking in retail involves dealing with multiple patient issues at the same time, and hospital multitasking involves more big picture keeping all of the diagnoses and health issues in mind at the same time for any prescription.....but a pharmacist in either area must do both. Now, of course, there are outliers, the independent pharmacy that does 40 scripts a day, the rural 20 bed hospital....if someones retail or hospital experience is limited to that, then its easy to think that all of retail or all of hospital is that easy. But most retail and most hospitals aren't like that. Not to mention one's co-workers, co-workers have a huge part in how easy or rough a job seems.

 

[farm4real]

A friend of mine works at a highly ranked pharmacy school (not that it means anything) and is part of the admission board. He says the school tries hard to just cherry pick all the high gpa and high scoring students before other schools get to them. They get pretty much automatic admission even if they sound like a total idiot on interviews since they want these students badly to accept as soon as possible. Whether or not they have even seen an actual pharmacy or know what pharmacy is about doesnt even matter as long as it will help the school keep their "average stats" for admitted students high since these students with 3.5+ gpas are applying less and less each year. Top schools are getting desperate for these students since their yearly averages keep on dropping and the quality of students applying are poorer by the year. I can totally see how the rest of the other pharmacy school start picking and taking students from the bottom of the barrel to fill their seats.

• • For the 2015-2016 cycle the PharmCAS applicant pool was 16,454 and the estimated seats available was 12,450. For this cycle there were 1.32 applicants per seat.

 

[rxdawg21]

• • For the 2015-2016 cycle the PharmCAS applicant pool was 16,454 and the estimated seats available was 12,450. For this cycle there were 1.32 applicants per seat.

That sounds very low. Hopefully it keeps going down and graduation classes get cut in half

 

[farm4real]

That sounds very low. Hopefully it keeps going down and graduation classes get cut in half

the source :
Council of Deans Business Meeting, Monday July 25, 2016, Anaheim, California

 

[Abby Atwood]

• • For the 2015-2016 cycle the PharmCAS applicant pool was 16,454 and the estimated seats available was 12,450. For this cycle there were 1.32 applicants per seat.

That's the same.
16,454/12,450 = 1.32

 

[8turkeys]

• • For the 2015-2016 cycle the PharmCAS applicant pool was 16,454 and the estimated seats available was 12,450. For this cycle there were 1.32 applicants per seat.

ok, but a better measure would be average gpa and pcat. Example, NDSU accepts 75% of applicants but the average GPA is 3.68 and PCAT ~70

 

[confettiflyer]

ok, but a better measure would be average gpa and pcat. Example, NDSU accepts 75% of applicants but the average GPA is 3.68 and PCAT ~70

Geez I remember being damn proud of my 3.1 GPA, granted the mean for my major was like 2.95 so I was in the top half at least, hahah


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[Seriously Serious]

Geez I remember being damn proud of my 3.1 GPA, granted the mean for my major was like 2.95 so I was in the top half at least, hahah

Cool story bro.

 

[Seriously Serious]

ok, but a better measure would be average gpa and pcat. Example, NDSU accepts 75% of applicants but the average GPA is 3.68 and PCAT ~70

Yeah, but what percentage of applicants are now getting admitted from community colleges? Sure an applicant may have a 3.7... but if they are from BFE CC, it is not the same as someone with a 3.7 from a larger university. If I remember correctly, my professor gave the class 10% "bonus" (on final grade) in my microbio class (summer) for signing the syllabus on day 1, hah.

 

[hye345]

Yeah, but what percentage of applicants are now getting admitted from community colleges? Sure an applicant may have a 3.7... but if they are from BFE CC, it is not the same as someone with a 3.7 from a larger university. If I remember correctly, my professor gave the class 10% "bonus" (on final grade) in my microbio class (summer) for signing the syllabus on day 1, hah.

What makes you think that this kind of artificial grade inflation doesn't happen at larger universities as well?

 

[Seriously Serious]

What makes you think that this kind of artificial grade inflation doesn't happen at larger universities as well?

From my personal experience. I understand an n=1 isn't enough to support my claim. If this hurts your feelings, you can believe what you like.

 

[wagrxm2000]

From my personal experience. I understand an n=1 isn't enough to support my claim. If this hurts your feelings, you can believe what you like.

My interns tell me about extra credit at the large universities all the time.

It hurts my feelings every time too.

 

[confettiflyer]

Cool story bro.

I see people write about 3.7-4.0 university GPA's and I'm immediately skeptical.

I mean, really...how many people should be pissing out A's their first year of college? You're like 18-19 years old and don't know jack.

It just ceases to become useful, or adcoms are forced to apply really weird subjective measures to normalize GPA.


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[Seriously Serious]

My interns tell me about extra credit at the large universities all the time.

It hurts my feelings every time too.

I never said there weren't universities - more specifically - classes at universities, that are not guilty of grade inflation. All universities are not created equal. Community college students have always stuck out like a sore thumb imo. However, I'm not saying they have an inferior work ethic. To say that an A in university biochem is equal to a CC biochem A is wrong, plain and simple. There is a reason a stigma exists when taking STEM courses at CC versus uni.

 

[Seriously Serious]

I see people write about 3.7-4.0 university GPA's and I'm immediately skeptical.

I mean, really...how many people should be pissing out A's their first year of college? You're like 18-19 years old and don't know jack.

It just ceases to become useful, or adcoms are forced to apply really weird subjective measures to normalize GPA.


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That is where the PCAT comes in... even then I'm skeptical on how well it standardizes applicants. I know people in my class that have a 4.0, but had < 3.0 GPA during matriculation.

 

[owlegrad]

To say that an A in university biochem is equal to a CC biochem A is wrong, plain and simple. There is a reason a stigma exists when taking STEM courses at CC versus uni.

This is so true, I heard CC's don't even teach germ theory of disease or CREB's cycle. Sad.

 

[lord999]

It depends on how strict the articulation guidelines are between the CC's and the University systems are. For states like CA and AZ where there is actually a legal basis that forces the CC's to be at University standard through mandatory cross-enrollment articulation committees (although for California, it's the Cal State system standard and not the UC one), there's good quality control there. In places where those matters are highly variable (MN and FL), yeah, there is and should be a discrimination against CC applicants.

I do discriminate against AP/IB Chemistry if they did not do their laboratory at the CC or the University level. You can tell really quick when they don't have those basic skills when you see them in compounding lab (the first year that Analytical Chemistry was not a prerequisite for pharmacy school, I had a student commit an epic fail and lit herself on fire starting a Bunsen burner for the first time when troches were the first laboratory, obviously that got changed to having lab safety be the first laboratory although I wish we restored the Analytical Chemistry prerequisite). I am much more in favor of dual enrollment/early postsecondary on campus for scenarios as high school education is much more politically circumscribed than even CC. Because physiology was not a required subject prior to pharmacy matriculation, we actually had basic science lectures in reproductive organ physiology because many of those students who had Anatomy under in place enrollment in their high school did not cover the subject adequately.

 

[confettiflyer]

That is where the PCAT comes in... even then I'm skeptical on how well it standardizes applicants. I know people in my class that have a 4.0, but had < 3.0 GPA during matriculation.

I'm not a fan of the PCAT purely because test taking ability doesn't hold a candle to critical thinking.

But I'm a realist...Short of drones following around applicants for four years, this is probably the best that can be done.

Oh well, roll the dice, see what happens.


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[Zelda840]

I guess everyone's experience is different. I didn't really see much difference between my CC and university classes. Parking was definitely better at the CC though!

 

[PharmDminus]

I guess everyone's experience is different. I didn't really see much difference between by CC and university classes. Parking was definitely better at the CC though!

agreed, it isnt fair to make a blanket statement that courses are easier at CC vs a major university. It all is dependent on the instructor. It is safe to say the competition is greater at the larger schools, however

 

[lord999]

I'm not a fan of the PCAT purely because test taking ability doesn't hold a candle to critical thinking.

But I'm a realist...Short of drones following around applicants for four years, this is probably the best that can be done.

Oh well, roll the dice, see what happens.


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Not necessarily. I would like the Boards to restore the hours requirement BEFORE application to pharmacy school. I would like to recruit pharmacists only from pharmacy technician ranks who have worked a minimum of 1600 hours (almost a year's worth of experience) before application like the days when you could go to pharmacy school without the two year background. That's quite a way to weed out the uncommitted, and would cheapen tech labor. I find that actual performance is a far better weed out process than testing.

 

[beautifulrobot]

Not necessarily. I would like the Boards to restore the hours requirement BEFORE application to pharmacy school. I would like to recruit pharmacists only from pharmacy technician ranks who have worked a minimum of 1600 hours (almost a year's worth of experience) before application like the days when you could go to pharmacy school without the two year background. That's quite a way to weed out the uncommitted, and would cheapen tech labor. I find that actual performance is a far better weed out process than testing.

I like this idea. It really is a huge disservice to the profession that pharmacy experience (either work or volunteer) is not a requirement for admission into pharmacy school. If we really want to be considered "doctors" and increase our professional responsibilities, we need to do a better job at ensuring the people we admit into the profession are actually committed to the profession.

Are there pharmacists who are currently working on restoring these requirements? Either on the state board level or on the ACPE level? How would one get involved if they would like to see this change?

 

[BenJammin]

I never said there weren't universities - more specifically - classes at universities, that are not guilty of grade inflation. All universities are not created equal. Community college students have always stuck out like a sore thumb imo. However, I'm not saying they have an inferior work ethic. To say that an A in university biochem is equal to a CC biochem A is wrong, plain and simple. There is a reason a stigma exists when taking STEM courses at CC versus uni.

All bets are off when it comes to the PCAT. If a CC applicant outscores the others in that metric alone, you better take those STEM grades seriously.

 

[Seriously Serious]

All bets are off when it comes to the PCAT. If a CC applicant outscores the others in that metric alone, you better take those STEM grades seriously.

I agree with this, and adcoms do undoubtedly (several people from CC in my class/college). Nowadays, the best route into pharm school is by making decent grades in CC for a year or two, kill the PCAT, apply to a school with Texas tuition rates.... think of all the savings... versus obtaining a bachelors, and paying cali tuition.