high spinal sedation

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Jeff05

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25 year old G1P0 37 weeks for epidural in L and D room. after placement and test dose the level was brought up with 8mL of 0.25% bupiv. Shortly thereafter, the patient became hypotensive (60/40), complained of numbness in her hands, and experienced progressive respiratory distress.

You think it may be a high spinal. After opening fluids and giving vasopressors you decide to intubate. Airway is secured uneventfully.

What now?

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To the ICU or to the OR for C-Section depending on FHR. I dont trust L&D nurses to do anything besides checking FH tones and reassuring women that labor will be worth it in the end.

The patient now requires continuous monitoring of EKG, and BP, A ventilator with someone to turn the knobs and push the buttons, only 2 places to get this OR or ICU.
 
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She will be ok in an hr. I would give some versed/ativan and call for an icu vent in the room. BP q 5 min until extubated.
 
The problem is that unless the BP was recovered fully and continuously to a reasonable level, the FHT would look like crap and the OBs would want to stat section her anyway. Additionally, I cannot imagine the opposition you would face from trying to vent a patient on a labor floor, even a high-risk labor floor. It would be a futile battle.
Take the patient to the OR, get the baby out, everyone wakes up breathing on their own later. Woohoo!
 
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25 year old G1P0 37 weeks for epidural in L and D room. after placement and test dose the level was brought up with 8mL of 0.25% bupiv. Shortly thereafter, the patient became hypotensive (60/40), complained of numbness in her hands, and experienced progressive respiratory distress.

You think it may be a high spinal. After opening fluids and giving vasopressors you decide to intubate. Airway is secured uneventfully.

What now?

versed or propofol drip.
 
I humbly disagree with keeping her on the L&D floor.

I dont believe even if i am staying at bedside its the safest place for a hypotensive and intubated patient. Even in the OB OR when bad things happen they prove their inability to be helpful. If not in the OR where all my equipment is then to the ICU.

Too many bad things have happened already why risk having more issues.
 
I had almost that exact scenario about 2 weeks ago and ended up discussing it with some collegues and even called one of my old attendings from women's anesthesia at my residency. Of course the first thing everyone agreed on was, this should never happen if you have given a true test dose. But those not in academics, i.e., here in the PP world, who have done 1000s of epidurals and not just watched residents do them for the last 10 years, knows that s--- happens even when you are careful.
Well, s--- almost happened 2 weeks ago, but the level stopped at about T1, and she was hemodynamically stable and breathing well and the baby did fine throughout. But it prompted the discussion. Once the pt is tubed, stable and baby doing well, what next?
The concensus seemed to be ventilated in the ICU until recovered. The OB we consulted agreed she should not be cut unless the baby was doing poorly.
Some disagreement on whether there should be any sedation. I felt there would be a period between regaining conciousness and the muscles of respiration and that she should be sedated for that time. Others disagreed. I would probably use low dose propofol. Any opinions on this?
 
I had the same case on Wednesday last week. Good thing the hypotension kicked in after the baby had been removed. It was terrible because she had a total spinal in end leading to cardiac arrest. But we managed to stabilize the patient on. Adrenaline, atropic Oxytocin, fluids and oxygen. We had to do CPR and with several compressions the heart beat returned. she is now well
 
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I had the same case on Wednesday last week. Good thing the hypotension kicked in after the baby had been removed. It was terrible because she had a total spinal in end leading to cardiac arrest. But we managed to stabilize the patient on. Adrenaline, atropic Oxytocin, fluids and oxygen. We had to do CPR and with several compressions the heart beat returned. she is now well

Nicely done and welcome.
 
High spinals shouldn't happen, and if they do, they shouldn't lead to cardiac arrest. Just sayin.

How would you prevent cardiac arrest?? I once had an asystolic cardiac arrest on a regular t7-8 level spinal for a hernia repair(this was 20years ago when spinal for hernias were common.). It happened very rapidly but also responded very quickly to epi and a few chest compressions. There's no way to prevent it. You just have to treat it. If you've never seen it you'd be impressed how quickly it happens.

And the poster I was responding to is in Uganda and he saved his patient's life. Well done.
 
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How would you prevent cardiac arrest?? I once had an asystolic cardiac arrest on a regular t7-8 level spinal for a hernia repair(this was 20years ago when spinal for hernias were common.). It happened very rapidly but also responded very quickly to epi and a few chest compressions. There's no way to prevent it. You just have to treat it. If you've never seen it you'd be impressed how quickly it happens.

And the poster I was responding to is in Uganda and he saved his patient's life. Well done.

While I have not had a cardiac arrest following spinal, I have had a handful of instances of severe bradycardia with pauses and hypotension and like Nimbus said it happens quickly. Nothing scarier than a hypotensive and/or bradycardic woman tanking while her husband and the staff are watching on. Even better when the nurse accidentally pulls out your only IV and the pedi standing by is telling you to give the mom some zofran for her nausea (true F-ing story on this one). When doing a spinal for any case I cycle the BP every minute for the first 5-10min and then q3 min for the next 20 min. I also seem to recall that there have been instances of high spinal greater than 30 minutes after placement.

As for the original original poster. I have had two epidurals that went "high spinal" after an appropriate test dose. One epidural was with the soft wire-reinforced cath and one with the stiffer braun cath. The second time this happened was about two years ago and I got a phone call from the nurse an hour and half after placement that the patient was having trouble breathing. I reassured her it was a potential issue with an epidural, sat her upright and placed a non-rebreather on her, supported her pressure with a few bonuses of ephedrine, drew back anything I could from the catheter and she delivered uneventfully (and pain free) two hours later. I sat with her the entire time.
 
How would you prevent cardiac arrest?? I once had an asystolic cardiac arrest on a regular t7-8 level spinal for a hernia repair(this was 20years ago when spinal for hernias were common.). It happened very rapidly but also responded very quickly to epi and a few chest compressions. There's no way to prevent it. You just have to treat it. If you've never seen it you'd be impressed how quickly it happens.

And the poster I was responding to is in Uganda and he saved his patient's life. Well done.

If you have a T7-T8 spinal level, and then you see a cardiac arrest, I would bec concered about other causes of cardiac arrest. But you are right, in the moment you just treat it whatever the cause.

It could be related to the spinal, but as others have said a high spinal does not = cardiac arrest usually. It just means get ready to intubate and possibly need GA. If I had a patient with difficulty breathing after neuraxial and I suspected that it was from the neuraxial, then I would do GETA and go to section if im not already planning a section. **** happens but you have to maintain control of the situation.

The OB should understand the urgency of the situation and go right to section, this is just as much of an indication for section as the other sometimes silly things that they go to section for. I would push them for section and do GETA with propofol and sevo and nitrous, then let the propofol run and she goes to the ICU until she starts breathing again spontaneously and then propofol is weened and she is extubated and meets baby.
 
How would you prevent cardiac arrest?? I once had an asystolic cardiac arrest on a regular t7-8 level spinal for a hernia repair(this was 20years ago when spinal for hernias were common.). It happened very rapidly but also responded very quickly to epi and a few chest compressions. There's no way to prevent it. You just have to treat it. If you've never seen it you'd be impressed how quickly it happens.

This post should come with a **USER WARNING** for being a whole mess of hullabaloo.

a) you say cardiac arrest in this situation is unavoidable...no.
b) you say you had an unpreventable asystole in a T7-8 level spinal...no.
c) Bradyasystole after spinal anesthesia is a well-known phenomenon. The mechanisms are known, or at least postulated thoroughly. It's preventable. Attention to heart rate in the 15-20 minutes after spinal is crucial.
 
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While I have not had a cardiac arrest following spinal, I have had a handful of instances of severe bradycardia with pauses and hypotension and like Nimbus said it happens quickly.

If you've had several instances of severe bradycardia with pauses and hypotension after spinal for C-section, and these patients didn't already all have conduction disease or weren't on beta-blockers/CCBs, I suggest that your left uterine displacement is inadequate.
 
Cardiac Arrests During Spinal Anesthesia
Review of Persisting Problem

by John B. Pollard, MD

In 1988, Caplan et al. reported 14 unexplained cardiac arrests during spinal anesthesia and, recognizing that hypovolemia played an important role, they suggested that '"prompt augmentation of central venous filling might have lessened the damage."1 Despite this warning, similar arrests have continued to occur with approximately one1 arrest for every 1,000 spinal anesthetics.2-5 The severity of injury has remained high and there are currently 170 cases of cardiac arrest during spinal or epidural anesthesia in the ASA Closed Claims Study database and almost 90% of these claims are for brain damage or death.6

Initial misconceptions about the etiology of these arrests may have delayed progress in treating and preventing these arrests.7-9 It is now rare for these arrests to be attributed to respiratory depression or "high" spinal anesthesia.2,10,11 Evidence for a common circulatory etiology comes from studies using healthy volunteers who have experienced bradycardia or cardiac arrest in settings that mimic the effects of sympathetic blockade. Jacobsen et al.12 studied the effect of sympathetic blockade on left ventricular (LV) diameter with echocardiography in eight unpremedicated volunteers and observed that two of them developed bradycardia and hypotension with epidural anesthetic levels of T8 and T9. These effects coincided with a reduction in LV diameter and were reversed by head-down positioning with rapid infusion of IV fluids. The increased levels of human pancreatic peptide associated these episodes of bradycardia are consistent with vagal activation.

Preload Central

It is well established that vagal responses can be triggered by decreases in preload. In fact, cardiac vagal tone is enhanced primarily through decreased venous return.13 This effect can be profound. Reductions in right atrial pressures of 36% with spinal anesthesia levels below T4 and by 53% after higher levels of blockade have been reported.14 These effects can be attributed to vasodilation with redistribution of central blood volume to the lower extremities and splanchnic beds. With acute blood loss or "third-space" fluid loss, these effects are even more pronounced with decreases in central venous pressure during spinal anesthesia of 66% or higher.15,16

Such decreases in preload may initiate reflexes that cause severe bradycardia. Three such reflexes have been suggested.17 The first involves the pacemaker stretch. The rate of firing of these cells within the myocardium is proportional to the degree of stretch. Decreased venous return results in decreased stretch and a slower heart rate. The second reflex may be attributable to the firing of low-pressure baroreceptors in the right atrium and vena cava. The third is the Bezold-Jarisch reflex in which receptors in the left ventricle are stimulated by a decrease in ventricular volume and cause bradycardia. This reflex slowing should allow time for more complete filling of the heart.

These vagal responses to decreases in preload cause more than bradycardia. A study of negative pressure applied to the lower body to cause functional hypovolemia demonstrated progressive vagal symptoms including sweating, nausea and syncope.18 One subject progressed from vagal symptoms to abrupt sinus arrest. In a separate study, two subjects experienced vagal arrests after 10mL/kg of blood was withdrawn to simulate acute blood loss with epidural block levels of T4 to T6.19

Taken together, these studies demonstrate that hypovolemia can precipitate not only classic vagal symptoms, but also full cardiac arrest in healthy patients. While one might assume that maintaining preload during spinal anesthesia is a consistent priority for anesthetists, the literature demonstrates otherwise. Geffin and Shapiro reported that preloading with a bolus of 300 mL was not practiced during the period when they experienced 12 cases of severe bradycardia or full arrest during spinal anesthesia.4

Even with conventional fluid management during a spinal anesthetic, decreases in preload can occur so quickly with altering patient position, releasing a tourniquet and other common perioperative events that there may not be time to give sufficient volumes of fluid over several minutes. When an abrupt decrease in preload is suspected, elevating the legs while rapidly infusing fluids can be helpful. If this does not rapidly reverse vagal symptoms, then other treatments should be considered. Anticipating an impending cardiac arrest can be difficult because hypovolemia and the subsequent increase in vagal tone may manifest initially as only mild nausea or diaphoresis. Treating the source of these symptoms is appropriate especially if the patient has strong resting vagal tone, a block level above T6 or other risk factors for severe bradycardia and cardiac arrest during spinal anesthesia.11 Multiple simultaneous interventions may be necessary to prevent vagal predominance. Gratadour et al.20 reported that neither volume loading nor infusion of a mixed alpha- and beta-agent during spinal anesthesia was not sufficient to prevent three study patients from experiencing bradycardia and hypotension associated with increased baroreflex activity during spinal anesthesia. When nausea, bradycardia or hypotension are evident during spinal anesthesia, additional volume loading, the use of a vasopressor, and prophylactic treatment with atropine should all be considered.

Atropine is recommended to counteract increased baroreflex activity during spinal anesthesia because glycopyrrolate is ineffective in this setting.5,21 Prophylactic treatment of bradycardia with atropine may decrease the frequency and morbidity of the arrests that occur during spinal anesthesia. Brown et al. reported only three cardiac arrests during a period when 10,080 spinal anesthetics were performed and none of the arrests resulted in "neurologic injury."9 This was attributed to vigilance and their "willingness to utilize IV atropine (0.4-0.6 mg), ephedrine (25-50 mg), and epinephrine (0.2-0.3 mg) in stepwise escalation of therapy when bradycardia develops following spinal anesthesia." Similarly, Geffin and Shapiro reported full recovery in all 12 patients treated for bradycardia or asystole following spinal anesthesia.10 This treatment included atropine for 11 of the 12 cases and it was typically used in combination with a vasopressor (ephedrine, epinephrine or phenylephrine). Atropine and a vasopressor (ephedrine) were also utilized in the five successful resuscitations reported by Lovstad et al.22 Taken together this represents 20 successful resuscitations in settings where atropine is used as the first line therapy.

Unfortunately not all of the arrests that occur during spinal anesthesia are successfully treated and fatal arrests still occur in healthy patients.2 With severe bradycardia or full cardiac arrest, the prompt use of epinephrine is recommended.1,9,23 Currently, epinephrine is used in less than one-half of these arrests and up to 25% of the arrests during spinal anesthesia arrests are fatal.2

Summary

While many factors can contribute to cardiac arrest during spinal anesthesia, vagal responses to hypovolemia often play a key role. Patients with risk factors for bradycardia or those with other vagal symptoms may be at increased risk for cardiac arrest during spinal anesthesia. This has important implications. Spinal anesthesia may not be the best choice for a patient with vagotonia or for a procedure where rapid blood loss is likely. When a spinal anesthetic is selected, maintaining preload should be a priority and prophylactic preloading with a bolus of IV fluid should not be omitted.

Standard regimens for volume preloading may not be sufficient to maintain adequate preload, so a low threshold for administering additional fluid boluses or using a vasopressor may be appropriate. For patients with bradycardia during spinal anesthesia, the stepwise escalation of treatment of bradycardia with atropine (0.4-0.6 mg), ephedrine (25-50 mg) and if necessary epinephrine (0.2-0.3 mg) may be indicated. For cardiac arrest, full resuscitation doses of epinephrine and atropine, additional volume loading and transcutaneous pacing should all be considered. With the popularity of spinal anesthesia and the reported frequency of these arrests, the potential impact of these interventions on further improving the safety of spinal anesthesia could be substantial.

Dr. Pollard is the Associate Chief of Staff for Education at the VA Palo Alto Health Care System and an Assistant Professor in the Department of Anesthesia, Stanford University, Stanford, California.([email protected])


Cardiac Arrests During Spinal Anesthesia
 
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This post should come with a **USER WARNING** for being a whole mess of hullabaloo.

a) you say cardiac arrest in this situation is unavoidable...no.
b) you say you had an unpreventable asystole in a T7-8 level spinal...no.
c) Bradyasystole after spinal anesthesia is a well-known phenomenon. The mechanisms are known, or at least postulated thoroughly. It's preventable. Attention to heart rate in the 15-20 minutes after spinal is crucial.

78 yo male...It was not 15-20 minutes in but near the end of surgery. The patient was not profoundly bradycardia before the event. HR was in the low 60s. Blood pressure was 90s systolic just like thousands of other spinals I've had since. Seemed like a perfect anesthetic. Within a matter of 10-15 seconds HR went to 30s then 20s then he had 3 lines of flatline across the moniter. How would you have prevented it? serious question.
 
While many factors can contribute to cardiac arrest during spinal anesthesia, vagal responses to hypovolemia often play a key role. Patients with risk factors for bradycardia or those with other vagal symptoms may be at increased risk for cardiac arrest during spinal anesthesia. This has important implications. Spinal anesthesia may not be the best choice for a patient with vagotonia or for a procedure where rapid blood loss is likely. When a spinal anesthetic is selected, maintaining preload should be a priority and prophylactic preloading with a bolus of IV fluid should not be omitted.

Standard regimens for volume preloading may not be sufficient to maintain adequate preload, so a low threshold for administering additional fluid boluses or using a vasopressor may be appropriate. For patients with bradycardia during spinal anesthesia, the stepwise escalation of treatment of bradycardia with atropine (0.4-0.6 mg), ephedrine (25-50 mg) and if necessary epinephrine (0.2-0.3 mg) may be indicated. For cardiac arrest, full resuscitation doses of epinephrine and atropine, additional volume loading and transcutaneous pacing should all be considered. With the popularity of spinal anesthesia and the reported frequency of these arrests, the potential impact of these interventions on further improving the safety of spinal anesthesia could be substantial.

Dr. Pollard is the Associate Chief of Staff for Education at the VA Palo Alto Health Care System and an Assistant Professor in the Department of Anesthesia, Stanford University, Stanford, California.([email protected])


Cardiac Arrests During Spinal Anesthesia
Good review but this makes it seem that a preload completely eliminates hypotension associated with neuraxial techniques. That's a false statement and numerous studies have shown no real association between the timing of fluid administration.
Co-loading or pre-loading for prevention of hypotension after spinal anaesthesia! a therapeutic dilemma

My practice includes opening the IV once you hit the room and continuing them until you're hemodynamically stable post-spinal. Furthermore, quick cycling of the cuff (Q2-3) and watching the patient are good practices. I've seen too many people attribute nausea or vomiting to peri-spinal opioids and not impending hypotension and a downwards spiral.

If the patient so much as hints they're cold, nauseous, "feeling funny" or even just anxious, I'm giving 10-20mg of ephedrine and getting another pressure. I've even seen the pulse ox start acting funny immediately post spinal and anesthesiologists trying to change the sticker rather than getting a BP.
 
Int J Obstet Anesth. 2012 Jan;21(1):24-8. doi: 10.1016/j.ijoa.2011.08.002. Epub 2011 Nov 18.
Reduction in spinal-induced hypotension with ondansetron in parturients undergoing caesarean section: a double-blind randomised, placebo-controlled study.
Sahoo T1, SenDasgupta C, Goswami A, Hazra A.
Author information

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Subarachnoid block is the preferred method of anaesthesia for caesarean section, but is associated with hypotension and bradycardia, which may be deleterious to both parturient and baby. Animal studies suggest that in the presence of decreased blood volume, 5-HT may be an important factor inducing the Bezold Jarisch reflex via 5-HT3 receptors located in intracardiac vagal nerve endings. In this study, we evaluated the effect of ondansetron, as a 5-HT3 receptor antagonist, on the haemodynamic response following subarachnoid block in parturients undergoing elective caesarean section.

METHODS:
Fifty-two parturients scheduled for elective caesarean section were randomly allocated into two groups. Before induction of spinal anaesthesia Group O (n=26) received intravenous ondansetron 4 mg; Group S (n=26) received normal saline. Blood pressure, heart rate and vasopressor requirements were assessed.

RESULTS:
Decreases in mean arterial pressure were significantly lower in Group O than Group S from 14 min until 35 min. Patients in Group O required significantly less vasopressor (P=0.009) and had significantly lower incidences of nausea and vomiting (P=0.049).

CONCLUSION:
Ondansetron 4 mg, given intravenously 5 min before subarachnoid block reduced hypotension and vasopressor use in parturients undergoing elective caesarean section.
 
78 yo male...It was not 15-20 minutes in but near the end of surgery. The patient was not profoundly bradycardia before the event. HR was in the low 60s. Blood pressure was 90s systolic just like thousands of other spinals I've had since. Seemed like a perfect anesthetic. Within a matter of 10-15 seconds HR went to 30s then 20s then he had 3 lines of flatline across the moniter. How would you have prevented it? serious question.

This arrest is not due to spinal anesthesia.
 
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78 yo male...It was not 15-20 minutes in but near the end of surgery. The patient was not profoundly bradycardia before the event. HR was in the low 60s. Blood pressure was 90s systolic just like thousands of other spinals I've had since. Seemed like a perfect anesthetic. Within a matter of 10-15 seconds HR went to 30s then 20s then he had 3 lines of flatline across the moniter. How would you have prevented it? serious question.
Zofran

If you read about Bezold-Jerisch reflexes, it is very strong in cats and can be reproduced and it has been proven to be a serotonin phenomenon. Interestingly enough, 5-HT3 antagonists can completely abolish the response in Cats, and treats it once it has happened.

What about in humans? Well there is some data (see post above this) that 5-HT3 antagonists can prevent or minimize hypotension after a spinal.

But what is really fascinating, is there is one case report where a person had a cardiac arrest after a spinal and the patient was treated with atropine (bad, bad, bad....never treat arrest in the setting of spinal with atropine, it doesn't work. Epi, Epi, Epi). So the atropine didn't work, and for some reason they never gave Epi, but they quickly gave Zofran, and cardiac arrest reversed.

There are 5 reasons to give Zofran before a spinal. This is one of them.
 
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Zofran

If you read about Bezold-Jerisch reflexes, it is very strong in cats and can be reproduced and it has been proven to be a serotonin phenomenon. Interestingly enough, 5-HT3 antagonists can completely abolish the response in Cats, and treats it once it has happened.

What about in humans? Well there is some data (see post above this) that 5-HT3 antagonists can prevent or minimize hypotension after a spinal.

But what is really fascinating, is there is one case report where a person had a cardiac arrest after a spinal and the patient was treated with atropine (bad, bad, bad....never treat arrest in the setting of spinal with atropine, it doesn't work. Epi, Epi, Epi). So the atropine didn't work, and for some reason they never gave Epi, but they quickly gave Zofran, and cardiac arrest reversed.

There are 5 reasons to give Zofran before a spinal. This is one of them.


If only I knew in 1998.
 
Zofran

If you read about Bezold-Jerisch reflexes, it is very strong in cats and can be reproduced and it has been proven to be a serotonin phenomenon. Interestingly enough, 5-HT3 antagonists can completely abolish the response in Cats, and treats it once it has happened.

What about in humans? Well there is some data (see post above this) that 5-HT3 antagonists can prevent or minimize hypotension after a spinal.

But what is really fascinating, is there is one case report where a person had a cardiac arrest after a spinal and the patient was treated with atropine (bad, bad, bad....never treat arrest in the setting of spinal with atropine, it doesn't work. Epi, Epi, Epi). So the atropine didn't work, and for some reason they never gave Epi, but they quickly gave Zofran, and cardiac arrest reversed.

There are 5 reasons to give Zofran before a spinal. This is one of them.

I wonder if he/she also gave Toradol thinking of amniotic fluid embolism in the case you mention. I had never heard of A-OK (atropine, ondansetron, ketorolac) until the past year. Fortunately, I haven't needed to use it. And while the literature seems to be lacking (as expected, how many definite AFEs have you seen?), the little that is out there is pretty interesting.

http://www.marchofdimes.org/pdf//AFE_11-21-13.pdf
 
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I wonder if he/she also gave Toradol thinking of amniotic fluid embolism in the case you mention. I had never heard of A-OK (atropine, ondansetron, ketorolac) until the past year. Fortunately, I haven't needed to use it. And while the literature seems to be lacking (as expected, how many definite AFEs have you seen?), the little that is out there is pretty interesting.

http://www.marchofdimes.org/pdf//AFE_11-21-13.pdf


http://www.marchofdimes.org/pdf/missouri/AFE_11-21-13.pdf

I really enjoyed the review but hope I never need to use it. For other "codes" the utility of A-OK is unproven specifically an Air Embolism or a Ortho Joint Fat embolism
 
Zofran

If you read about Bezold-Jerisch reflexes, it is very strong in cats and can be reproduced and it has been proven to be a serotonin phenomenon. Interestingly enough, 5-HT3 antagonists can completely abolish the response in Cats, and treats it once it has happened.

What about in humans? Well there is some data (see post above this) that 5-HT3 antagonists can prevent or minimize hypotension after a spinal.

But what is really fascinating, is there is one case report where a person had a cardiac arrest after a spinal and the patient was treated with atropine (bad, bad, bad....never treat arrest in the setting of spinal with atropine, it doesn't work. Epi, Epi, Epi). So the atropine didn't work, and for some reason they never gave Epi, but they quickly gave Zofran, and cardiac arrest reversed.

There are 5 reasons to give Zofran before a spinal. This is one of them.


Question:

Since we know Zofran is safe during pregnancy should we be giving 4 mg IV before every elective C Section receiving a spinal?

Prevention of Spinal Anesthesia-Induced Hypotension During Cesarean Delivery by 5-Hydroxytryptamine-3 Receptor Antagonists: A Systematic Review and... - PubMed - NCBI

Serotonin receptor antagonists for the prevention and treatment of pruritus, nausea, and vomiting in women undergoing cesarean delivery with intrat... - PubMed - NCBI

Ondansetron in Pregnancy and Risk of Adverse Fetal Outcomes ...
www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1211035
by B Pasternak - ‎2013 - ‎Cited by 102 - ‎Related articles
Feb 28, 2013 - Because nausea and vomiting are associated with a decreased risk of spontaneous abortion17,18 (with the potential to introduce confounding by indication), we analyzed the risk of spontaneous abortion by comparing exposure to ondansetron with exposure to antiemetic antihistamines considered safe in pregnancy ( ..
 
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Question:

Since we know Zofran is safe during pregnancy should we be giving 4 mg IV before every elective C Section receiving a spinal .

I do. I also do a poor-man's phenylephrine gtt, too (squirt about 5-600 mcg of phenylephrine in a liter of IVF and let it run).
 
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I do. I also do a poor-man's phenylephrine gtt, too (squirt about 5-600 mcg of phenylephrine in a liter of IVF and let it run).

I give 8mg Zofran up front to all C/S's as well and do the exact same with the neo. (Thanks @Noyac).
 
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I give 8mg Zofran up front to all C/S's as well and to the exact same with the neo. (Thanks @Noyac).
I never found the zofran to be all that effective.
I do start the neo early though and that has been "usually" all I need.
Maybe I need to try 8mg.
 
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I never found the zofran to be all that effective.
I do start the neo early though and that has been "usually" all I need.
Maybe I need to try 8mg.

IMHO, the number one reason to "Load" with Zofran 4mg IV is not for the itching or the nausea but rather to minimize the severity of the hypotension should it occur.
 
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Why zofran? And why 8mg?
Is for nausea strictly or for the itching?

I changed this response to the one posted because I don't find zofran to be very effective against any of the symptoms we are discussing. But my pts don't itch all that much in the OR because I don't add fentanyl To the spinal most of the time. If the pt had an epidural running and then came for c/s then I cut back on the marvpcaine and add some fentanyl. And we all know that it does very little for the nausea during a c/s.
 
I do. I also do a poor-man's phenylephrine gtt, too (squirt about 5-600 mcg of phenylephrine in a liter of IVF and let it run).

Me too though it's usually only 2-300 mcg, +/- 10-15 of ephedrine if the hr is lowish. What's your dose of bupi? Usually 1.5-1.6 ml for me.
 
Me too though it's usually only 2-300 mcg, +/- 10-15 of ephedrine if the hr is lowish. What's your dose of bupi? Usually 1.5-1.6 ml for me.

I trained doing 1.6 mL - pretty much standard. I've been lowering it lately. Usually 1.5 mL, sometimes 1.4 mL. Plus fentanyl 25 mcg, Duramorph 250 mcg.
 
25 year old G1P0 37 weeks for epidural in L and D room. after placement and test dose the level was brought up with 8mL of 0.25% bupiv. Shortly thereafter, the patient became hypotensive (60/40), complained of numbness in her hands, and experienced progressive respiratory distress.

You think it may be a high spinal. After opening fluids and giving vasopressors you decide to intubate. Airway is secured uneventfully.

What now?

Anyone have experience with CSF lavage for high spinal? Studying for boards and just had a question on it. Quick search revealed a case report from a few years ago. The question's explanation said patients usually regain full respiratory function within 5 minutes.
Reversal of high spinal anesthesia with cerebrospinal lavage after inadvertent intrathecal injection of local anesthetic in an obstetric patient. - PubMed - NCBI
 
Anyone have experience with CSF lavage for high spinal? Studying for boards and just had a question on it. Quick search revealed a case report from a few years ago. The question's explanation said patients usually regain full respiratory function within 5 minutes.
Reversal of high spinal anesthesia with cerebrospinal lavage after inadvertent intrathecal injection of local anesthetic in an obstetric patient. - PubMed - NCBI

Well - the board and real life answer is that the reason people with high spinals have respiratory depression is because hypotension causes hypoperfusion of the brainstem, and the treatment is to restore perfusion with IV epinephrine. Not fluids, ephedrine, phenylephrine ... epinephrine as first line. I would fully expect normal respiratory function within a minute or two of giving epi, if not, you're probably intubating and doing CPR and giving more epi.

I imagine it would take a good while longer than 5 minutes to do 40 mL of CSF lavage through an epidural catheter. Never done it.
 
Anyone have experience with CSF lavage for high spinal? Studying for boards and just had a question on it. Quick search revealed a case report from a few years ago. The question's explanation said patients usually regain full respiratory function within 5 minutes.
Reversal of high spinal anesthesia with cerebrospinal lavage after inadvertent intrathecal injection of local anesthetic in an obstetric patient. - PubMed - NCBI

I don't have any experience but this was taught to me as a possible intervention. My OB director told us he replaced it with saline for a loading dose through and an unrecognized intrathecal catheter about a week ago.
 
Well - the board and real life answer is that the reason people with high spinals have respiratory depression is because hypotension causes hypoperfusion of the brainstem, and the treatment is to restore perfusion with IV epinephrine. Not fluids, ephedrine, phenylephrine ... epinephrine as first line. I would fully expect normal respiratory function within a minute or two of giving epi, if not, you're probably intubating and doing CPR and giving more epi.

I imagine it would take a good while longer than 5 minutes to do 40 mL of CSF lavage through an epidural catheter. Never done it.

The two high spinals, and one high epidural I have seen in the last few years - enough to cause LOC, vitals were rock solid - but they kept breathing.
 
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