High MCAT, Low GPA

[DBC03]

It seems like this is a common theme around these parts - so apologies for an additional "can my MCAT make up for my poor GPA" thread. My application will have some good, some bad, some ugly. We'll start with the bad.

The Bad:
-2.2 Freshman year GPA (1.8 science - UGLY)
-3.43 GPA overall - a full year of classes with straight As will only raise me to just over 3.5
-I'm old - graduated in 2003

The Good:
-Engineering major from Princeton (and, yes, they actually curve down or at least did when I was there)
-I'm "mature" and have consistent work experience in the engineering field
-Upward trend in GPA - w/o freshman year it's 3.73
-One year post-bac with 4.0 (all A+ where possible, A when A+ wasn't given)
-High-ish MCAT (522 - 131/128(??)/132/131)
-Excellent LORs - I got to know all of my professors very well this year, even when classes exceeded 300 people
-I didn't start taking classes until 2016, so I can learn quickly
-Worst year was freshman year with serious extenuating circumstances. (medication that had awful side effects) - this was also back in 1999-2000
-Leadership and volunteering over the past 15 years
-Own a photography business that has done well
-Over 100 hours of shadowing, with over 70 with an oncologist
-150 hours volunteering at hospital doing patient rounding
-Good story on why I'm applying
-Research both in undergrad and post-bac. No publications, yet, but I've heard we have one going through at some point this summer

I've seen the acceptance tables - I have anywhere between a 65 to 75% chance of getting accepted somewhere. Any possibility of doing an MD-PhD at a lower-tier school or should I give up all hope? Is that MCAT high enough to "wow" some committees or should I take it once more (seems ridiculous, but seriously, CARS?). Going through the MSAR, my MCAT is plenty high for most schools, but GPA is too low for most as well. I am not sure how schools view this. I would actually exceed Duke's numbers with MCAT and would be just within 10% range for matriculant GPA - maybe that puts me in the middle for them. I can't really do another year of post-bac as I think schools look at a 37 year old as too old. My biggest question is can I get past the initial round of toss outs so schools will look at my actual application in its entirety? Do schools care if you have a very good reason for why one year went so poorly, especially if that year was nearly 20 years ago? Do I need to apply this year, but take a lot of classes over the next year just in case? I will be doing some interesting research over this next year, but i do need to get a paying job at some point.

My gut feeling is that some schools will view me as an asset and some will toss my application in the trash before they read it. I plan to apply very broadly and I will include at least 20 schools. If I get an interview, I should be fine - my personal skills and interview skills are great. I'm set on MD in the US and will take another year to apply if necessary.

Any advice would be great.

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[Goro]

You have shown that the you of now is not the you of then. Aim high.

I suggest:
U VM
U Toledo (maybe)
Miami
St. Louis
Albany
Albert Einstein
Rochester
Rush
Rosy Franklin
NYMC
EVMS
Wake Forest
Jefferson
Temple
Drexel
Creighton`
Tulane
USC/Keck
Dartmouth
MCW
Loyola
Emory
BU
Mayo
Duke
Case
JHU
Pitt
Columbia
UCSF
Hofstra
Oakland-B
Western MI
Uniformed Services University/Hebert (just be aware of the military service commitment)
Your state school(s).

 

[DBC03]

Thanks so much for the help!

I am in Florida and will apply to a few of the Florida schools. My husband just got a new job with an engineering firm that has offices all over the US, so we are narrowing down our list to any schools with an office nearby - it's still a huge list (like greater than 40). The next to go are schools in areas I would rather not live. Thank goodness Mayo lets you do your last two years in Jacksonville.

I'm just so worried about my GPA, but there's really nothing I can do about it. As an engineer from Princeton, I had over 144 "credit hours" (we had to take at least 36 classes and each class was considered 4 credit hours). My two lowest GPA years were the two where I took the most classes, so it has been an uphill battle. On the other hand, my increase was pretty impressive so I think I can get the attention of some schools.

 

[RocuROMANium]

You have shown that the you of now is not the you of then. Aim high.

I suggest:
U VM
U Toledo (maybe)
Miami
St. Louis
Albany
Albert Einstein
Rochester
Rush
Rosy Franklin
NYMC
EVMS
Wake Forest
Jefferson
Temple
Drexel
Creighton`
Tulane
USC/Keck
Dartmouth
MCW
Loyola
Emory
BU
Mayo
Duke
Case
JHU
Pitt
Columbia
UCSF
Hofstra
Oakland-B
Western MI
Uniformed Services University/Hebert (just be aware of the military service commitment)
Your state school(s).

How did you come up with that particular list? Is that list tailored specifically towards @DBC03? I looked at every school on MSAR and came up with a list that I thought was very applicant friendly towards non-traditional students and OOS applicants. Some of those schools I found are on your list like U Toledo, UCSF, and Tulane. However, I didn't even bother looking at Mayo, JHU, Duke, or Albert Einstein because those are top notch medical schools that, at the very least, seem to favor top traditional applicants. I know they have a holistic application process, but even still, it would seem like a waste of money for a non-trad applicant (even one as impressive as the OP) to apply to one of those schools.

 

[DBC03]

How did you come up with that particular list? Is that list tailored specifically towards @DBC03? I looked at every school on MSAR and came up with a list that I thought was very applicant friendly towards non-traditional students and OOS applicants. Some of those schools I found are on your list like U Toledo, UCSF, and Tulane. However, I didn't even bother looking at Mayo, JHU, Duke, or Albert Einstein because those are top notch medical schools that, at the very least, seem to favor top traditional applicants. I know they have a holistic application process, but even still, it would seem like a waste of money for a non-trad applicant (even one as impressive as the OP) to apply to one of those schools.

I, too, would love to know how he came up with this list, but after seeing many other posts by Goro, I imagine he has seen a lot over his many years here.

I originally thought along the lines you posted, but I looked at the actual accepted and *matriculated* data (helpful for determining if they are accepting anyone with lower GPAs or MCATs) for Mayo and Duke, and my GPA (even with my awful freshman year) fits within the 10-90% range for matriculated students while my MCAT is above their 90% thresholds. 10% of Mayo's current class is 30 and over (which makes them appear fairly non-trad friendly), and I have been visiting the Mayo clinic for years now, so I am very familiar with their mission as a hospital and medical school. There's no guarantee on any of these schools, but I will certainly send an application their way since the application process is often a crap shoot with even the most perfect background. While I don't mind the $39 to apply, I will be a little miffed if I get a supplemental and then get rejected within 30 minutes of returning it and paying the fee (a story which I have heard many times from other applicants).

I also have quite a few friends who have been accepted at Duke and wait-listed or not even interviewed at Florida schools over the past 10 years. This would be n=5 or so - not a statistical trend by any means. But I have often joked that I have a better chance of getting into Harvard than getting into the University of Florida, which seems only to take numbers into account and prefers traditional students.

 

[Goro]

How did you come up with that particular list? Is that list tailored specifically towards @DBC03? I looked at every school on MSAR and came up with a list that I thought was very applicant friendly towards non-traditional students and OOS applicants. Some of those schools I found are on your list like U Toledo, UCSF, and Tulane. However, I didn't even bother looking at Mayo, JHU, Duke, or Albert Einstein because those are top notch medical schools that, at the very least, seem to favor top traditional applicants. I know they have a holistic application process, but even still, it would seem like a waste of money for a non-trad applicant (even one as impressive as the OP) to apply to one of those schools.

These are schools that have been friendly to SDNers who have reinvented themselves in the past. A 520ish MCAT is nothing to sneeze at, either.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

MD/PhD is unlikely as most of them want younger people for those programs.

 

[RocuROMANium]

How long and what kind of studying did you do for the MCAT?

 

[willow84]

I, too, would love to know how he came up with this list, but after seeing many other posts by Goro, I imagine he has seen a lot over his many years here.

I originally thought along the lines you posted, but I looked at the actual accepted and *matriculated* data (helpful for determining if they are accepting anyone with lower GPAs or MCATs) for Mayo and Duke, and my GPA (even with my awful freshman year) fits within the 10-90% range for matriculated students while my MCAT is above their 90% thresholds. 10% of Mayo's current class is 30 and over (which makes them appear fairly non-trad friendly), and I have been visiting the Mayo clinic for years now, so I am very familiar with their mission as a hospital and medical school. There's no guarantee on any of these schools, but I will certainly send an application their way since the application process is often a crap shoot with even the most perfect background. While I don't mind the $39 to apply, I will be a little miffed if I get a supplemental and then get rejected within 30 minutes of returning it and paying the fee (a story which I have heard many times from other applicants).

I also have quite a few friends who have been accepted at Duke and wait-listed or not even interviewed at Florida schools over the past 10 years. This would be n=5 or so - not a statistical trend by any means. But I have often joked that I have a better chance of getting into Harvard than getting into the University of Florida, which seems only to take numbers into account and prefers traditional students.

The dean of admissions at UF COM loves non-traditional students. It is a very, very non-trad friendly med school. Top of my list!

 

[DBC03]

MD/PhD is unlikely as most of them want younger people for those programs.

My advisor and I are leaning this way. We have to carefully consider it because it will extend my time in med school that much longer and while they will put me into the MD only pile if they don't accept me, I might be behind during the admissions cycle. I'll probably go carefully through the data and apply to only very specific programs.

 

[DBC03]

The dean of admissions at UF COM loves non-traditional students. It is a very, very non-trad friendly med school. Top of my list!

No way! I will be applying to a few Florida schools, and that is top of my list.

 

[DBC03]

How long and what kind of studying did you do for the MCAT?

When I first considered going back to school (1 year ago), I was torn between PhD - some kind of engineering - and MD. I signed up for Organic Chemistry, so I purchased the Kaplan MCAT set and started listening to the Khan Academy videos on Chemistry and Organic Chemistry. I tried to use the Kaplan books to review everything I had forgotten in the 20 years since I used my Chemistry.

I had a 2.5 hour drive to school and would stay with extended family during the week before driving 30 minutes to school and 30 minutes back. Then I'd drive 2.5 hours home and volunteer on the weekends as well as go in to work. On those drives I listened to Khan Academy videos, trying to stick with the videos relevant to what I was learning that semester. On my longer drives I listened to the Psych and Sociology videos as organic chemistry can get a bit dry after 2.5 hours. I did the same thing during the semester I took Advanced Biochem 1, Cell Bio, and Genetics. So I wasn't officially studying for the MCAT, but I was trying to reinforce everything I was learning in class. I also had a shower speaker and listened to videos when I took showers. I basically immersed myself in it.

Over Christmas break I tried to get through some material, but I found it incredibly difficult to concentrate. I gave myself two weeks off then somehow forced myself to get through the Kaplan books for physics, which I hadn't taken in 15 years, and the social sciences. But nothing official - just review. I started freaking out about physics at that point.

I started my "official" studying the week I started my last semester - 15 weeks before the exam. I had nearly the same schedule as the semester before, but with just one class - Advanced Biochem 2 - twice a week. I continued working in lab a few times a week and volunteering on weekends. I threw in some physician shadowing the last 6 weeks before the exam (this actually kept me sane - it reminded me why I was studying). I still had a 2.5 hour drive up and back each week, so I started listening to the Yale Psych 101 class on iTunes U and then added Physiology and Physics classes from UC San Diego's podcasts. I listened to those over the course of 15 weeks. I created a 15 week schedule using TBR, based on some other schedules I had seen. I started with one chapter from physics and did 3-5 passages. Then the next day I read one chapter from Gen Chem, then Bio, then Organic Chem, etc., one chapter a day when possible (I got through maybe 5 to 6 chapters a week, max). I also added TPR's psych book and did one chapter each week. I had to skip a lot of days, but I was able to finish the books by spring break. I took a Nextstep practice exam right after class to gauge how i was doing (510 on first, 516 on half test two days later). After spring break I started taking 2 practice exams a week - Tuesday and Thursday (I SO wish I had more time to do practice exams and in a more "normal" environment - I was really trying to cram them in and school was not conducive to practice tests), then re-reviewed the books, completing only a passage or two on non-exam days. I also started with the AAMC practice material and prioritized the Section Bank (holy cow, those were harder than I was expecting) and the CARS question bank. I tried to do one or two passages from each Section Bank category and then 2 CARS practice passages each day (when I wasn't doing a practice exam). I didn't time myself on exams (pointless at school), but I did review them thoroughly the next day. I threw in the question bank questions when I could. By the day before the exam, I had completed all the AAMC questions.

I took my final TIMED practice exam the weekend before (AAMC FL 2), trying to keep everything as similar to the real exam as possible (I think I like the idea of mostly non-timed exams with the three AAMC exams taken in realistic timed environments. You need to learn whether you CAN answer the questions without the time limit, then learn how to answer them faster). After that, I crammed as much content review as possible into the last week, but forced myself to stop studying Thursday night. I took Friday completely off an enjoyed the day, only taking 15 minutes that evening to write down all the equations i planned on using.

So that was it. I was originally planning to apply to the military school (USU) this year and knew this was my last year of eligibility, so I had to get everything in. I tried to immerse myself in the material and assess my weaknesses periodically. I am NOT good at memorizing, but I am good at recognizing what I need to do to answer a problem and I'm a very good problem solver, so the new form of the test played to that strength. The hardest part was content review and relearning physics. Oh my goodness, I had the hardest time with physics. I'm a flipping engineer. I have passed two engineering licensing tests. Physics should NOT be an issue, and yet I still found it difficult.

I also threw in EK Verbal and EK psych. There's one thing I have learned this year and that is that you will NEVER know every single possible psychology or sociology term regardless of how much review you do. It's just not possible. I still can't believe the number of terms that come up that I've never heard and I've been through every single Khan Academy video twice as well as TPR, Kaplan, and EK. Hats off to anyone scoring a 132 in that section.

If I had more time, I would have preferred to add in Khan passages for more content review and maybe I would have started CARS review earlier. But I found that CARS was kind of a crap shoot for me. I would score high one day then moderate the next. I seemed to do better on the AAMC materials than other practice exams, but it wasn't as consistent as the other three sections (I should add that I was consistently getting 127-129 on the SS section, so who knows where the 131 came from).

As far as practice exams go, I completed NS 1-4, EK 1, 3, 4 (don't bother with 4 unless you have done the others and have money to burn), and all AAMC FLs.

Hope that helps! I think everyone has different study habits and a different set of preferred books, but I found the TBR set really prepared me for the style of questions - plus, the shear number of passages gave me plenty to practice with.

 

[RocuROMANium]

When I first considered going back to school (1 year ago), I was torn between PhD - some kind of engineering - and MD. I signed up for Organic Chemistry, so I purchased the Kaplan MCAT set and started listening to the Khan Academy videos on Chemistry and Organic Chemistry. I tried to use the Kaplan books to review everything I had forgotten in the 20 years since I used my Chemistry.

I had a 2.5 hour drive to school and would stay with extended family during the week before driving 30 minutes to school and 30 minutes back. Then I'd drive 2.5 hours home and volunteer on the weekends as well as go in to work. On those drives I listened to Khan Academy videos, trying to stick with the videos relevant to what I was learning that semester. On my longer drives I listened to the Psych and Sociology videos as organic chemistry can get a bit dry after 2.5 hours. I did the same thing during the semester I took Advanced Biochem 1, Cell Bio, and Genetics. So I wasn't officially studying for the MCAT, but I was trying to reinforce everything I was learning in class. I also had a shower speaker and listened to videos when I took showers. I basically immersed myself in it.

Over Christmas break I tried to get through some material, but I found it incredibly difficult to concentrate. I gave myself two weeks off then somehow forced myself to get through the Kaplan books for physics, which I hadn't taken in 15 years, and the social sciences. But nothing official - just review. I started freaking out about physics at that point.

I started my "official" studying the week I started my last semester - 15 weeks before the exam. I had nearly the same schedule as the semester before, but with just one class - Advanced Biochem 2 - twice a week. I continued working in lab a few times a week and volunteering on weekends. I threw in some physician shadowing the last 6 weeks before the exam (this actually kept me sane - it reminded me why I was studying). I still had a 2.5 hour drive up and back each week, so I started listening to the Yale Psych 101 class on iTunes U and then added Physiology and Physics classes from UC San Diego's podcasts. I listened to those over the course of 15 weeks. I created a 15 week schedule using TBR, based on some other schedules I had seen. I started with one chapter from physics and did 3-5 passages. Then the next day I read one chapter from Gen Chem, then Bio, then Organic Chem, etc., one chapter a day when possible (I got through maybe 5 to 6 chapters a week, max). I also added TPR's psych book and did one chapter each week. I had to skip a lot of days, but I was able to finish the books by spring break. I took a Nextstep practice exam right after class to gauge how i was doing (510 on first, 516 on half test two days later). After spring break I started taking 2 practice exams a week - Tuesday and Thursday (I SO wish I had more time to do practice exams and in a more "normal" environment - I was really trying to cram them in and school was not conducive to practice tests), then re-reviewed the books, completing only a passage or two on non-exam days. I also started with the AAMC practice material and prioritized the Section Bank (holy cow, those were harder than I was expecting) and the CARS question bank. I tried to do one or two passages from each Section Bank category and then 2 CARS practice passages each day (when I wasn't doing a practice exam). I didn't time myself on exams (pointless at school), but I did review them thoroughly the next day. I threw in the question bank questions when I could. By the day before the exam, I had completed all the AAMC questions.

I took my final TIMED practice exam the weekend before (AAMC FL 2), trying to keep everything as similar to the real exam as possible (I think I like the idea of mostly non-timed exams with the three AAMC exams taken in realistic timed environments. You need to learn whether you CAN answer the questions without the time limit, then learn how to answer them faster). After that, I crammed as much content review into the last week as possible, but forced myself to stop studying Thursday night. I took Friday completely off an enjoyed the day, only taking 15 minutes that evening to write down all the equations i planned on using.

So that was it. I was originally planning to apply to the military school (USU) this year and knew this was my last year of eligibility, so I had to get everything in. I tried to immerse myself in the material and assess my weaknesses periodically. I am NOT good at memorizing, but I am good at recognizing what I need to do to answer a problem and I'm a very good problem solver, so the new form of the test played to that strength. The hardest part was content review and relearning physics. Oh my goodness, I had the hardest time with physics. I'm a flipping engineer. I have passed two engineering licensing tests. Physics should NOT be an issue, and yet I still found it difficult.

I also threw in EK Verbal and EK psych. There's one thing I have learned this year and that is that you will NEVER know every single possible psychology or sociology term regardless of how much review you do. It's just not possible. I still can't believe the number of terms that come up that I've never heard and I've been through every single Khan Academy video twice as well as TPR, Kaplan, and EK. Hats off to anyone scoring a 132 in that section.

If I had more time, I would have preferred to add in Khan passages for more content review and maybe I would have started CARS review earlier. But I found that CARS was kind of a crap shoot for me. I would score high one day then moderate the next. I seemed to do better on the AAMC materials than other practice exams, but it wasn't as consistent as the other three sections (I should add that I was consistently getting 127-129 on the SS section, so who knows where the 131 came from).

As far as practice exams go, I completed NS 1-4, EK 1, 3, 4 (don't bother with 4 unless you have done the others and have money to burn), and all AAMC FLs.

Hope that helps! I think everyone has different study habits and a different set of preferred books, but I found the TBR set really prepared me for the style of questions - plus, the shear number of passages gave me plenty to practice with.

Wow that is quite a journey, an epic, in fact. Congratulations on your well earned 99th percentile score. What a grind and I know this is what it will take for me to have similar success on the MCAT, but this is what it takes for us non-traditional students. I am excited to start even though this will be a very tough road.

So you liked using various resources for studying instead of sticking with one particular manufacturer like Princeton Review or Kaplan? I definitely will jump on some Khan Academy videos because they helped me get through undergrad.

 

[Lawpy]

CARS is a crapshoot but a 128 is a solid score. What makes a score unbalanced is a subsection < 125, so you're stellar with a 522. Honestly, your GPA is misleading since you have a very strong upward trend. I'd probably apply with a profile of a 3.7+/522 and focus primarily on top tiers, upper mid tiers (Rochester, Einstein, Emory, etc.) and your state schools. You have a compelling application, so enjoy the cycle!

 

[DBC03]

Wow that is quite a journey, an epic, in fact. Congratulations on your well earned 99th percentile score. What a grind and I know this is what it will take for me to have similar success on the MCAT, but this is what it takes for us non-traditional students. I am excited to start even though this will be a very tough road.

So you liked using various resources for studying instead of sticking with one particular manufacturer like Princeton Review or Kaplan? I definitely will jump on some Khan Academy videos because they helped me get through undergrad.

I think my choice of different manufacturers was more of an experiment. I didn't really start researching which were the best until a week before I actually started studying, so I ended up with a few options. If I could only purchase one set, I would get the new TBR books. I found those had the best passages and content and really helped me understand how to approach the questions! I liked the khan academy videos, but the MCAT videos weren't necessarily sufficient, especially for biochem, orgo, or biology. So definitely consider flipping through the individual subjects outside of the actual "MCAT" description.

The non-trad experience is a tough road. I told myself each week while in school that the next week I would be happy that I made it one more week. I also told myself that next year I would be very glad I had started the year before. It's tough, but doable. HUGE shoutout to my husband who has been super supportive in all of this and helped out in any way we can. After 9 years of marriage, this was the longest we were apart throughout the week and it was TOUGH. Also, HUGE shoutout to my aunt and uncle who have housed me (and my husband) for the past year. What started as a 12-week summer Organic Chemistry course (I was sure that I would be able to get into the local university after the first summer) turned into more than a year. They are amazing and have been so supportive.

 

[DBC03]

CARS is a crapshoot but a 128 is a solid score. What makes a score unbalanced is a subsection < 125, so you're stellar with a 522. Honestly, your GPA is misleading since you have a very strong upward trend. I'd probably apply with a profile of a 3.7+/522 and focus primarily on top tiers, upper mid tiers (Rochester, Einstein, Emory, etc.) and your state schools. You have a compelling application, so enjoy the cycle!

Thanks! I know that some advisors will consider me in one category, others won't. This will be an interesting ride. I honestly can't believe I'm actually here - one year later - looking at sending my application in next week. Crazy.

 

[thenucleusaccumbens]

How did you come up with that particular list? Is that list tailored specifically towards @DBC03? I looked at every school on MSAR and came up with a list that I thought was very applicant friendly towards non-traditional students and OOS applicants. Some of those schools I found are on your list like U Toledo, UCSF, and Tulane. However, I didn't even bother looking at Mayo, JHU, Duke, or Albert Einstein because those are top notch medical schools that, at the very least, seem to favor top traditional applicants. I know they have a holistic application process, but even still, it would seem like a waste of money for a non-trad applicant (even one as impressive as the OP) to apply to one of those schools.

Mayo is definitely friendly towards non-trads!

Thanks! I know that some advisors will consider me in one category, others won't. This will be an interesting ride. I honestly can't believe I'm actually here - one year later - looking at sending my application in next week. Crazy.

good luck! keep us posted!

 

[mariposas905]

The dean of admissions at UF COM loves non-traditional students. It is a very, very non-trad friendly med school. Top of my list!

How do you know this? MSAR shows it as very non-trad unfriendly.

 

[DBC03]

How do you know this? MSAR shows it as very non-trad unfriendly.

I feel the same way based on the numbers. Or perhaps other people don't think "people over the age of 30" when they think non-trad.

 

[catlady87]

Just wanted to say hi! I have a somewhat similar profile. Same undergrad, similar GPA, similar MCAT, postbac etc, a few years younger but will be starting in that over 30 bracket. Not much research but lots of clinical experience.

I also feel very unsure as to how schools will view me since my GPA and MCAT are so different. I'm also applying quite broadly (many of the schools on Goro's list) to try and give myself a good chance of getting in. Good luck and I'll be following your progress!

 

[esob]

It's not your academic stats but rather your age that will be the hindering factor for MD/PhD programs.

 

[DBC03]

It's not your academic stats but rather your age that will be the hindering factor for MD/PhD programs.

Yes, I figured this would be the biggest hinderance. I only applied to the programs that consider you simultaneously for both MD and MD-PhD. I'm already at a disadvantage for MD with stats, and I didn't want to put myself at a bigger disadvantage.

 

[DBC03]

Just wanted to say hi! I have a somewhat similar profile. Same undergrad, similar GPA, similar MCAT, postbac etc, a few years younger but will be starting in that over 30 bracket. Not much research but lots of clinical experience.

I also feel very unsure as to how schools will view me since my GPA and MCAT are so different. I'm also applying quite broadly (many of the schools on Goro's list) to try and give myself a good chance of getting in. Good luck and I'll be following your progress!

Good luck! I feel like I'm only coming in with a lot of work experience and life experience. But I hope there's at least one school that will appreciate that. I took Goro's list and removed any schools in cities where I couldn't move (My husband's company has offices around the US, so I removed any that weren't within an hour or so from an office he could transfer to). I added a few reach schools that were pretty much donations, but where some of my friends have gotten in (same undergrad so check with your friends to see what schools seem to give us a little break). I'll update if I get any interviews (obviously none yet) I did get a Secondary from UCSF, but did NOT get anything from Vanderbilt.

Keep us posted on whether you get interviews as well!!

 

[wholeheartedly]

Yes, I figured this would be the biggest hinderance. I only applied to the programs that consider you simultaneously for both MD and MD-PhD. I'm already at a disadvantage for MD with stats, and I didn't want to put myself at a bigger disadvantage.

Some schools offer the possibility of transfering or applying in to the MD/PhD program if that's something you really want to do at that point.

 

[DBC03]

Some schools offer the possibility of transfering or applying in to the MD/PhD program if that's something you really want to do at that point.

Yes - I am thinking of that and I feel I'll have a much better idea of what I'm looking for when I get there. My only issue is that a few schools I applied to do not have an MD/PhD program, but most do. I had to carefully consider each school that didn't.

 

[willow84]

I feel the same way based on the numbers. Or perhaps other people don't think "people over the age of 30" when they think non-trad.

I've had lunch with the admissions department and he specifically said that. I also shadowed two attendings at UF Health who also said that Dean Lynch specifically loves nontrad students like me (I'm over 30!).

 

[DBC03]

I've had lunch with the admissions department and he specifically said that. I also shadowed two attendings at UF Health who also said that Dean Lynch specifically loves nontrad students like me (I'm over 30!).

I'm wondering it they just don't get many non-trad applicants? UF doesn't get many applicants regardless compared to many of the other schools. Let's hope that's the case and that they decide to take a chance with me. Thanks for the update!

 

[WGSgrad]

Eh...you've come this far. There is no point in not applying to MD/PhD programs. The worst that can happen is you get rejected and are out of a couple of bucks. A story about this guy was in our alumni news letter last year. He's got you by 9 years at least. At 45, ex-detective shifts investigation skills to medicine | Cornell Chronicle

 

[wholeheartedly]

Eh...you've come this far. There is no point in not applying to MD/PhD programs. The worst that can happen is you get rejected and are out of a couple of bucks.

Actually, this isn't true. Quite a few, if not the majority, of schools that have MD/PhD programs where you can apply both MD and MD/PhD consider you for the MD/PhD first and move you to the MD only pool after you are rejected from the MD/PhD pool. Because the MD/PhD cycle drags out for awhile and most MD programs are rolling admissions, this means you wind up being considered incredibly late in the MD cycle and puts you at a serious disadvantage for getting a spot. Some schools don't allow you to apply for both programs. So you're taking a serious gamble if you're a long shot.

Not saying she shouldn't do it, people just need to be fully informed. She has other options for research as well such as the internal transfer to an MD/PhD, programs like CCLCM, Pitts PSTP, Harvard's HST, things like the NIH's medical research scholars program, or even just a dedicated research year in her home med school.

 

[DBC03]

Actually, this isn't true. Quite a few, if not the majority, of schools that have MD/PhD programs where you can apply both MD and MD/PhD consider you for the MD/PhD first and move you to the MD only pool after you are rejected from the MD/PhD pool. Because the MD/PhD cycle drags out for awhile and most MD programs are rolling admissions, this means you wind up being considered incredibly late in the MD cycle and puts you at a serious disadvantage for getting a spot. Some schools don't allow you to apply for both programs. So you're taking a serious gamble if you're a long shot.

Not saying she shouldn't do it, people just need to be fully informed. She has other options for research as well such as the internal transfer to an MD/PhD, programs like CCLCM, Pitts PSTP, Harvard's HST, things like the NIH's medical research scholars program, or even just a dedicated research year in her home med school.

I had a serious talk with my advisor along these lines and decided only to apply MD/PhD if the school considered both applications simultaneously for these reasons. Some schools also require acceptance into MD first before going to the PhD committee. The MD/PhD programs take their sweet time and MD-only go too quickly. I couldn't apply CCLCM (location), but am looking into/applying for the others as well as the HET at Keck. It's a complicated process. I'm currently assuming I don't get in anywhere this year and acting accordingly with classes, volunteering, and research to make myself a better candidate next year as well.


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[catlady87]

Good luck! I feel like I'm only coming in with a lot of work experience and life experience. But I hope there's at least one school that will appreciate that. I took Goro's list and removed any schools in cities where I couldn't move (My husband's company has offices around the US, so I removed any that weren't within an hour or so from an office he could transfer to). I added a few reach schools that were pretty much donations, but where some of my friends have gotten in (same undergrad so check with your friends to see what schools seem to give us a little break). I'll update if I get any interviews (obviously none yet) I did get a Secondary from UCSF, but did NOT get anything from Vanderbilt.

Keep us posted on whether you get interviews as well!!

I bet there are several schools who will appreciate that - plus your GPA your major during the deflation experiment is not the same as that GPA at [insert random school]. I'm in touch with our undergrad advisor and she's quite pessimistic about my chances (perhaps a bit less now that I did well on the MCAT?) but my postbac advisor is very bullish and thinks I'll get into several great schools. So that's confusing. Do you have access to our undergrad spreadsheet with stats on students who have applied/interviewed/gotten in to certain schools by GPA/MCAT? It's pretty helpful.

I'm definitely getting nervous since interview invites have started to go out, but I was only complete at my first school last Monday 8/7 (MCAT score came out 8/1 and committee letter arrived 8/7) so trying not to panic yet. I'm hoping to wrap up all my secondaries in the next couple of days.

 

[DBC03]

I bet there are several schools who will appreciate that - plus your GPA your major during the deflation experiment is not the same as that GPA at [insert random school]. I'm in touch with our undergrad advisor and she's quite pessimistic about my chances (perhaps a bit less now that I did well on the MCAT?) but my postbac advisor is very bullish and thinks I'll get into several great schools. So that's confusing. Do you have access to our undergrad spreadsheet with stats on students who have applied/interviewed/gotten in to certain schools by GPA/MCAT? It's pretty helpful.

I'm definitely getting nervous since interview invites have started to go out, but I was only complete at my first school last Monday 8/7 (MCAT score came out 8/1 and committee letter arrived 8/7) so trying not to panic yet. I'm hoping to wrap up all my secondaries in the next couple of days.

Ooh - I'd love to have a spreadsheet with the stats! That would be awesome. I think I have a relatively OK list, but I'm almost done with all secondaries and willing to add any if necessary. Our advisor is surprisingly positive about my chances with regular MD, so that made me think she was serious when she said no on the MD/PhD. My previous advisor was really down on my chances, especially since I had to do my postbac at a relatively unknown state school, but I think she was just afraid I would do really poorly. She has since moved on.

I feel the same way as you about seeing other IIs go out and not receiving one. I mean, I totally understood with schools where I was sending secondaries in after IIs went out, but some schools just started a few weeks after I was complete and I'm definitely a little nervous. I'm working hard to get my GPA up further and volunteering with groups that are personally important to me (and that match my previous volunteer experiences). So I feel like I might have a better chance next year if I don't get in this round, but I really don't want to go through this again. How is your application going? Keep me updated as I want to hear how you are doing! Also, could you tell me where to find the data on the students? I'm on coursesites- maybe I just haven't dug through it enough!

 

[catlady87]

Ooh - I'd love to have a spreadsheet with the stats! That would be awesome. I think I have a relatively OK list, but I'm almost done with all secondaries and willing to add any if necessary. Our advisor is surprisingly positive about my chances with regular MD, so that made me think she was serious when she said no on the MD/PhD. My previous advisor was really down on my chances, especially since I had to do my postbac at a relatively unknown state school, but I think she was just afraid I would do really poorly. She has since moved on.

I feel the same way as you about seeing other IIs go out and not receiving one. I mean, I totally understood with schools where I was sending secondaries in after IIs went out, but some schools just started a few weeks after I was complete and I'm definitely a little nervous. I'm working hard to get my GPA up further and volunteering with groups that are personally important to me (and that match my previous volunteer experiences). So I feel like I might have a better chance next year if I don't get in this round, but I really don't want to go through this again. How is your application going? Keep me updated as I want to hear how you are doing! Also, could you tell me where to find the data on the students? I'm on coursesites- maybe I just haven't dug through it enough!

So on coursesites, go to "Selecting Schools Resources" and there are two spreadsheets under "Selecting Schools Spreadsheet & Application Tracker". They have both MSAR data and our undergrad specific data (scroll all the way to the right). It makes me a bit more hopeful since the average GPAs for our school are lower than the published MSAR ones.

That's funny - the advisor who left seemed more optimistic about my chances! To be fair, the one this year didn't actually say much to me either way; she made it clear that since I was doing a formal postbac she preferred that I rely on my advisor there. I think they are pretty conservative (and I get it, they have to produce to good numbers).

I have a full-time clinical job this year and am also volunteering, but not taking classes - though I may sign up for a couple around Nov/Dec if things aren't going well with the applications. I really really don't want to apply again and am hoping I have enough "targets" that I will get in somewhere. I'm doing 24 schools and want to die with how many secondaries there are, especially since applying for anything has always felt completely torturous to me and is pretty much my least favorite thing to do ... not that anyone enjoys it! I was complete at my first 10 schools last Monday, and hoping to send in the rest of the secondaries by the end of this week - most of them are in the editing/polishing phase at this point. Just need to make one final push. So I'm late by SDN standards but hopefully not terribly late.

 

[DBC03]

So on coursesites, go to "Selecting Schools Resources" and there are two spreadsheets under "Selecting Schools Spreadsheet & Application Tracker". They have both MSAR data and our undergrad specific data (scroll all the way to the right). It makes me a bit more hopeful since the average GPAs for our school are lower than the published MSAR ones.

That's funny - the advisor who left seemed more optimistic about my chances! To be fair, the one this year didn't actually say much to me either way; she made it clear that since I was doing a formal postbac she preferred that I rely on my advisor there. I think they are pretty conservative (and I get it, they have to produce to good numbers).

I have a full-time clinical job this year and am also volunteering, but not taking classes - though I may sign up for a couple around Nov/Dec if things aren't going well with the applications. I really really don't want to apply again and am hoping I have enough "targets" that I will get in somewhere. I'm doing 24 schools and want to die with how many secondaries there are, especially since applying for anything has always felt completely torturous to me and is pretty much my least favorite thing to do ... not that anyone enjoys it! I was complete at my first 10 schools last Monday, and hoping to send in the rest of the secondaries by the end of this week - most of them are in the editing/polishing phase at this point. Just need to make one final push. So I'm late by SDN standards but hopefully not terribly late.

I was waiting on LORs, so I wasn't complete until the very end of July at about 5 schools, then just last week at another 15. But I still have something like 13 schools to go. I think I'm ready to finish those up this week - just polishing them as well! I feel so late, but keep reminding myself that I'm still getting them in about two weeks before Labor Day, right? I'm also fed up with taking classes only because I really don't have the cash to submit applications AND take classes, but I think I'll be able to pay everything off with tutoring during the spring. Good luck! I always love talking with fellow applicants as I feel like we understand the difficulty of our undergrad.

 

[catlady87]

I opened up a new credit card for my applications with a bunch of bonus miles if you spend 3000 dollars in the first three months. Easily managed that one! I spent all my savings and more on postbac and applications so I hope it works out.

I'm hoping that once I submit everything I get to actually have a bit of fun this year. I worked two part-time jobs during my postbac and my husband also had to work really hard, weekends and all, just so we could stay afloat financially, so it would be nice to have time for hobbies and going on (CHEAP) dates etc this year.

Good luck again! I'll definitely pop back in with updates and maybe our paths will even cross somewhere this fall!

 

[DBC03]

@Goro - Question about some volunteering I'm getting into this year. Like you have said in threads past, I'm assuming I'm rejected until I get accepted. NO IIs yet, but I'll definitely post if I hear anything. While I have volunteer exposure , the most meaningful is from years past (I cared for/mentored women in crises for three years until the recession hit - Oh man, I miss that position). I wanted to get involved in some more meaningful volunteering this year, but just relocated at the beginning of the application cycle and had to find a new positions. I'm going to be volunteering one day a week at a crisis pregnancy center. I kind of fell upon that idea when I realized I had previous years of experience with mentoring/caregiving for women in crisis situations. It made sense and would build on those experiences. My husband also wants to do some volunteering with me and he loves coaching and helping kids. He would like to join the Boys & Girls Club. He gets off early on Fridays, so I'm thinking it could be a our Friday afternoon activity. Are there specific activities I should consider or would teaching/tutoring/photography/anything they need be fine? Does this constitute as underserved?

I also chose to tutor this year instead of working in a clinical setting. I won't lie, the pay per hour is MUCH better, and it's flexible so it gives me time to volunteer, conduct research, and keep taking classes (found out while picking out schools that I wasn't eligible for some schools based on the age of my physics classes). I figure I'll need to give my application a significant boost if I don't get in, so I'm not sure if I should have skipped everything and worked for hours as a scribe. But the schedule is falling into place perfectly, so I think it was a good move. Any other advice you have would be great. Right now we're really trying to make ends meet. Thanks!

 

[Goro]

@Goro - Question about some volunteering I'm getting into this year. Like you have said in threads past, I'm assuming I'm rejected until I get accepted. NO IIs yet, but I'll definitely post if I hear anything. While I have volunteer exposure , the most meaningful is from years past (I cared for/mentored women in crises for three years until the recession hit - Oh man, I miss that position). I wanted to get involved in some more meaningful volunteering this year, but just relocated at the beginning of the application cycle and had to find a new positions. I'm going to be volunteering one day a week at a crisis pregnancy center. I kind of fell upon that idea when I realized I had previous years of experience with mentoring/caregiving for women in crisis situations. It made sense and would build on those experiences. My husband also wants to do some volunteering with me and he loves coaching and helping kids. He would like to join the Boys & Girls Club. He gets off early on Fridays, so I'm thinking it could be a our Friday afternoon activity. Are there specific activities I should consider or would teaching/tutoring/photography/anything they need be fine? Does this constitute as underserved?

I also chose to tutor this year instead of working in a clinical setting. I won't lie, the pay per hour is MUCH better, and it's flexible so it gives me time to volunteer, conduct research, and keep taking classes (found out while picking out schools that I wasn't eligible for some schools based on the age of my physics classes). I figure I'll need to give my application a significant boost if I don't get in, so I'm not sure if I should have skipped everything and worked for hours as a scribe. But the schedule is falling into place perfectly, so I think it was a good move. Any other advice you have would be great. Right now we're really trying to make ends meet. Thanks!

Do what you need to do right now, work-wise, and fill in your free time with some volunteering.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

I was waiting on LORs, so I wasn't complete until the very end of July at about 5 schools, then just last week at another 15. But I still have something like 13 schools to go. I think I'm ready to finish those up this week - just polishing them as well! I feel so late, but keep reminding myself that I'm still getting them in about two weeks before Labor Day, right? I'm also fed up with taking classes only because I really don't have the cash to submit applications AND take classes, but I think I'll be able to pay everything off with tutoring during the spring. Good luck! I always love talking with fellow applicants as I feel like we understand the difficulty of our undergrad.

If you have a DO letter I'd be surprised if you see no love there. Several of the new schools are taking people without it, although I don't know if you're willing to roll the dice on UIW (we are a new DO school founded on the healing ministry of Jesus) or similar.

FWIW I have different stats but a similar overall Lizzy M (higher GPA, lower MCAT), few years younger, and just one II

 

[DBC03]

So I promised to keep up with this thread on some level to give other non-trades hope and help. Here’s what is going on so far:

II at USF —> Accepted this week
II at UCF —> Blown away by this school. Accepted!
II at Hofstra —> I’m postponing my trip up there by a week or two so classes are out, but I plan on staying up the area for one to two weeks to visit friends and family and maybe try to get other ITA interviews
II at Wake Forest —> SUPER excited about this. Had to postpone until after four exams at school because I want to be on my A game. Wait listed at first, accepted yesterday (early December)!!
II at UF --> Loved It. Accepted. Really awesome program.
II at NYU - this was one of the programs I randomly threw my hat into - I never ever expected or even hoped for an interview, but it’s really happening in just a few days!!

Just a note - if you think something's up with your application, follow up. But do it with grace.

Rejected at nine schools (Mayo AZ and MN, Georgetown, George Washington, Pitt, Pritzker - no surprise there, UCSF, Vanderbilt, and Johns Hopkins)

Planning to apply for Carle Illinois.

@Goro - I’m thinking of withdrawing from two schools at this point based on my acceptance. There are many schools I’m still interested in, but two that I am not based on location or other factors (Rosy Franklin and NYMC). Are there any reasons I should reconsider?


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[Goro]

So I promised to keep up with this thread on some level to give other non-trades hope and help. Here’s what is going on so far:

II at USF —> Accepted this week
II at UCF —> Blown away by this school and will hear back in November
II at Hofstra —> I’m postponing my trip up there by a week or two so classes are out, but I plan on staying up the area for one to two weeks to visit friends and family and maybe try to get other ITA interviews
II at Wake Forest —> SUPER excited about this. Had to postpone until after four exams at school because I want to be on my A game.

Rejected at two schools (Pitt, Pritzker - no surprise there)

Planning to apply for Carole Illinois.

@Goro - I’m thinking of withdrawing from two schools at this point based on my acceptance. There are many schools I’m still interested in, but two that I am not based on location or other factors (Rosy Franklin and NYMC). Are there any reasons I should reconsider?

Nope. And congrats on the accept!
Now go read this: Goro's Guide to Success in Medical School (2017 edition)

 

[DBC03]

Nope. And congrats on the accept!
Now go read this: Goro's Guide to Success in Medical School (2017 edition)

Thanks so much for your help! It has been indispensable!!


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[tryptamine]

So many congratulations, @DBC03-- very well deserved! Really hope to be following your lead this time next year. Best of luck with the rest of your cycle; I can only imagine how much the tension must drop from here.

Thanks for being such a conscientious contributor on this forum, and I hope you stick around for a while before disappearing into the post-matriculation mire!

 

[DBC03]

So many congratulations, @DBC03-- very well deserved! Really hope to be following your lead this time next year. Best of luck with the rest of your cycle; I can only imagine how much the tension must drop from here.

Thanks for being such a conscientious contributor on this forum, and I hope you stick around for a while before disappearing into the post-matriculation mire!

Thanks for the kind words!


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[DBC03]

Updated my previous post - I’ve been accepted to my three state schools and will hear back from one school later this month. No new IIs. Very thrilled with my acceptances at this point.


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[Blanky]

Congrats! You earned it!

 

[DBC03]

Just updated my progress again - IIs at USF, UCF, Hofstra, Wake Forest, UF, NYU.

Accepted at four, interviewing at the last two.

@Goro - might want to add NYU to that list of schools that consider non-trad redemption stories.


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[catlady87]

Just updated my progress again - IIs at USF, UCF, Hofstra, Wake Forest, UF, NYU.

Accepted at four, interviewing at the last two.

@Goro - might want to add NYU to that list of schools that consider non-trad redemption stories.


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You're killing it! Congrats on the new acceptances and the II at NYU!

 

[Goro]

Just updated my progress again - IIs at USF, UCF, Hofstra, Wake Forest, UF, NYU.

Accepted at four, interviewing at the last two.

@Goro - might want to add NYU to that list of schools that consider non-trad redemption stories.


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Especially when they have a massive MCAT score!

 

[Goro]

Just updated my progress again - IIs at USF, UCF, Hofstra, Wake Forest, UF, NYU.

Accepted at four, interviewing at the last two.

@Goro - might want to add NYU to that list of schools that consider non-trad redemption stories.


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[DBC03]

You're killing it! Congrats on the new acceptances and the II at NYU!

Still hoping for my last two holdouts in the south, but very happy with the cycle so far!


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