*HELP* anyone heard of TSOM? (trinity school of medicine)

[plzpickme]

my sister is desperate to become a doctor, but she only got into TSOM (Trinity School of Medicine).
It's different from TCD, and is located in St. vincent.. which is in the middle of nowhere.
I heard many discouraging things about going to carribean medical school, and I am very worried about sister's future career. She says she will open up her own office (we come from a well-to-do family), but I am worried that she won't be able to live in the states because of her career. I am a different major, and I don't know the whole process in detail, so please enlighten me.. Thanks.

Here are my questions.

1) TSOM is a relatively new medical school. Is it accredited?
2) Let's say that my sister scores average on USMLE 1,2. What are her chances of getting into any US residency?
3) If she does get a chance to do US residency, can you list some possible specialty?

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[Top Gun]

my sister is desperate to become a doctor, but she only got into TSOM (Trinity School of Medicine).
It's different from TCD, and is located in St. vincent.. which is in the middle of nowhere.
I heard many discouraging things about going to carribean medical school, and I am very worried about sister's future career. She says she will open up her own office (we come from a well-to-do family), but I am worried that she won't be able to live in the states because of her career. I am a different major, and I don't know the whole process in detail, so please enlighten me.. Thanks.

Here are my questions.

1) TSOM is a relatively new medical school. Is it accredited?
2) Let's say that my sister scores average on USMLE 1,2. What are her chances of getting into any US residency?
3) If she does get a chance to do US residency, can you list some possible specialty?

For the love of all that is holy, please,please tell your sister to do anything she can to exhaust other possibilities before even considering Trinity School of Medicine. I have never even heard of it. First, she needs to try to get into a US med school if she can. If that means doing extra courses to beef up her GPA, retaking the MCAT, or doing an SMP, she should do it. Try at least twice to get into a US med school. If, after having done all of that, including an SMP, then consider the big 4 Caribbean schools, like SGU, Ross, AUC, and Saba. They are much more established, have a better track record, and a graduate from one of those schools has a much better chance of landing a residency. Also, a graduate from one of those schools can get licensed in all 50 states. If she doesn't get into any of the US schools or the big four, I would suggest she look at alternative career possibilities (i.e. dentistry, PA, NP, etc...) before wasting time and money on a school like Trinity which is not established and offers no guarantees of passing USMLE, matching into a residency, or obtaining licensure.

And by the way, if she scores average on USMLE as a Trinity student, she can pretty much forget about matching into a residency. Caribbean grads have to do better than AMGs in order to have the same chance of matching into a residency. Assuming she scored well on USMLE, and she came from Trinity, the best she would do in terms of residency would probably be family medicine or maybe psychiatry.

 

[Skip Intro]

I heard many discouraging things about going to carribean medical school, and I am very worried about sister's future career.

Here's my only advice:

(1) Show your sister this thread, invite her to join the forum, and then have her post her own questions.

(2) Although we all admire your concern, assuming that she is a competent adult and/or not otherwise your legal or financial responsibility, I would completely divorce yourself from her decisions. You are not her keeper.

-Skip

 

[Temperature101]

my sister is desperate to become a doctor, but she only got into TSOM (Trinity School of Medicine).
It's different from TCD, and is located in St. vincent.. which is in the middle of nowhere.
I heard many discouraging things about going to carribean medical school, and I am very worried about sister's future career. She says she will open up her own office (we come from a well-to-do family), but I am worried that she won't be able to live in the states because of her career. I am a different major, and I don't know the whole process in detail, so please enlighten me.. Thanks.

Here are my questions.

1) TSOM is a relatively new medical school. Is it accredited?
2) Let's say that my sister scores average on USMLE 1,2. What are her chances of getting into any US residency?
3) If she does get a chance to do US residency, can you list some possible specialty?

If it is not one of the big 4 (SGU, AUC, ROSS, SABA) and to some extent AUA, MUA, SMU. DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, YOUR MONEY.

 

[Unzbuzzled]

my sister is desperate to become a doctor, but she only got into tsom (trinity school of medicine).
It's different from tcd, and is located in st. Vincent.. Which is in the middle of nowhere.
I heard many discouraging things about going to carribean medical school, and i am very worried about sister's future career. She says she will open up her own office (we come from a well-to-do family), but i am worried that she won't be able to live in the states because of her career. I am a different major, and i don't know the whole process in detail, so please enlighten me.. Thanks.

Here are my questions.

1) tsom is a relatively new medical school. Is it accredited?
2) let's say that my sister scores average on usmle 1,2. What are her chances of getting into any us residency?
3) if she does get a chance to do us residency, can you list some possible specialty?

Good God don't go! Noooooo! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

 

[stethan]

Here's my only advice:

(1) Show your sister this thread, invite her to join the forum, and then have her post her own questions.

(2) Although we all admire your concern, assuming that she is a competent adult and/or not otherwise your legal or financial responsibility, I would completely divorce yourself from her decisions. You are not her keeper.

-Skip

I would certainly take this advice and also post to other forums such as ValueMD for example. The above comments would scare anyone out of going to the Caribbean but there are many success stories for graduates out of international and Caribbean medical universities. Also, she should definitely research schools that have been around for a long time, and have a track record.

 

[Skip Intro]

The above comments would scare anyone out of going to the Caribbean but there are many success stories for graduates out of international and Caribbean medical universities.

Well, I'm assuming you meant all the comments in this thread and not just mine. But, just want to clarify what I meant...

I think it is admirable that a brother has enough concern about a family member's potentially bad choices. But, provided she is an adult and of sound mind, it really is up to her to decide for herself what the best course for her life should be. The best thing a family member can do is help to direct their sibling to good information, and let them decide for themselves.

Going to medical school offshore is a huge decision with financial ramifications that will last, literally, decades - and that's true whether your successful or not. I left a lucrative career and went to Ross, as many posters know, after exhaustive research about the pros and cons. While I sought input and advice from family members and friends, it was my choice, though, and I remain solely responsible for that decision.

So, maybe the OP's sister has a little growing-up to do. A brother can't be responsible, however, in the end for what his sister decides. Either way, this decision should not be made in a haphazard manner. The fact that she either (a) doesn't know such forums exist, or (b) isn't interested in getting involved for herself (whatever the reason) bodes poorly for her long-term success.

You have to be engaged and know fully what you are getting yourself into before you make the decision to matriculate in any Caribbean program. I know I was. And, I had the support of the people important in my life before I did. Success will follow if this is the case. I am living proof. But, I didn't rely on anyone else to make those decisions for me.

That was my point.

-Skip

 

[DocBlin]

Great post!

 

[PRETTYBOYSWAG]

my sister is desperate to become a doctor, but she only got into TSOM (Trinity School of Medicine).
It's different from TCD, and is located in St. vincent.. which is in the middle of nowhere.
I heard many discouraging things about going to carribean medical school, and I am very worried about sister's future career. She says she will open up her own office (we come from a well-to-do family), but I am worried that she won't be able to live in the states because of her career. I am a different major, and I don't know the whole process in detail, so please enlighten me.. Thanks.

Here are my questions.

1) TSOM is a relatively new medical school. Is it accredited?
2) Let's say that my sister scores average on USMLE 1,2. What are her chances of getting into any US residency?
3) If she does get a chance to do US residency, can you list some possible specialty?

This "sister" is actually the OP. In other posts, he states that he only has an acceptance to a single Caribbean school and yet he states here that he "is a different major and doesn't know the whole process in detail." OP if you really have to ask this question instead of searching through years of archived material in the forums, then you really are not ready to go to any medical school, much less the Caribbean (which has far, far greater risks than US MD and DO schools). My suggestion is to do some research on what would be a major life altering decision in your life, instead of making up fake "sisters" and remaining clueless about the long road to becoming a physician.

 

[Skip Intro]

I would also question the motivation of anyone who is "desperate" to become a doctor. In the end, it's not going to turn out to be whatever current fantasy one harbors it will be.

-Skip

 

[rollelephants]

assuming she scored well on USMLE, and she came from Trinity, the best she would do in terms of residency would probably be family medicine or maybe psychiatry.

well you've clearly done your research. Trinity just had it's first class graduate, and the 8 people matched in the following:

surgery, IM, IM, medical genetics, IM-Peds, IM-Peds, OB-GYN, OB-GYN

keep in mind that is the very first class too.


please at least make EDUCATED posts if you're going to bash the school.

 

[Unzbuzzled]

well you've clearly done your research. Trinity just had it's first class graduate, and the 8 people matched in the following:

surgery, IM, IM, medical genetics, IM-Peds, IM-Peds, OB-GYN, OB-GYN

keep in mind that is the very first class too.


please at least make EDUCATED posts if you're going to bash the school.

Hmm. Eight people graduated, but how many students originally enrolled as first year students? I'm guessing that number is far more than eight.

 

[rollelephants]

Hmm. Eight people graduated, but how many students originally enrolled as first year students? I'm guessing that number is far more than eight.

10 i believe, maybe 12.

 

[Top Gun]

well you've clearly done your research. Trinity just had it's first class graduate, and the 8 people matched in the following:

surgery, IM, IM, medical genetics, IM-Peds, IM-Peds, OB-GYN, OB-GYN

keep in mind that is the very first class too.


please at least make EDUCATED posts if you're going to bash the school.

What are you getting all butt-hurt about? Do you attend the school or something? Even if this is true, I would still take the big four over Trinity as they are more established. Not to mention, graduates from the big four can get licensed in all 50 states. Can you say the same thing for Trinity?

 

[Unzbuzzled]

10 i believe, maybe 12.

So about 2/3 made it? How is that any better than the Big 4? And what kind of private medical school can run with a class size of 8-12? Are there like three professors and a secretary? Also, TSOM grads are not eligible for licensure in most states. To back up Skip, I'd take FM every day of the week over never practicing in the first place, which is apparently the fate of at least 1/3 of TSOM grads. And most of them will never be able to practice in their desired state. You don't need to be "educated" to see what a bad idea TSOM is- it's common sense.

 

[rollelephants]

So about 2/3 made it? How is that any better than the Big 4? And what kind of private medical school can run with a class size of 8-12? Are there like three professors and a secretary? Also, TSOM grads are not eligible for licensure in most states. To back up Skip, I'd take FM every day of the week over never practicing in the first place, which is apparently the fate of at least 1/3 of TSOM grads. And most of them will never be able to practice in their desired state. You don't need to be "educated" to see what a bad idea TSOM is- it's common sense.

apparently the point of "this being a very first class" wasn't recognized. of course a charter class at a new school in the caribbean isn't going to draw tons of applications like a new school in the states, and of course the school is going to grow. By that same token, they have no academic background for residency committees to base a selection on (likely meaning that if the first charter class did that well, it's only up from there...unless of course those guys all get kicked out of residency or something).

and "TSOM grads are not eligible for licensure in most states"???? maybe all but 2 or 3. 47-48 out of 50 isn't "most" by most peoples definitions. Another dip**** statement from someone who knows nothing and is here to troll.

No, I am not a student of this school, but I did start at a new school similar to this and then transfered back to a US school. The reason I am getting pissed about this thread, among others (I just don't have the time or will to deal with them all), is that schools like this give people a chance. If you have a bad experience at a school such as this one, then yes, by all means, come to this forum and post it, and it will be very informative and give people a good idea of what to expect. The **** that blows my mind is people that come into this carribean thread whenever they're bored, and just bash schools, clearly (as made evident on this thread) with no knowledge or research of any sort. If you're in the caribbean, you're going to have to work your ass off, no matter where you are, to get back to where you want to be. Might as well do it in a place where you're not competing against 800 other people for a CLERKSHIP spot (not a residency spot), IMHO


rant over, everybody enjoy your night!

 

[Unzbuzzled]

apparently the point of "this being a very first class" wasn't recognized. of course a charter class at a new school in the caribbean isn't going to draw tons of applications like a new school in the states, and of course the school is going to grow. By that same token, they have no academic background for residency committees to base a selection on (likely meaning that if the first charter class did that well, it's only up from there...unless of course those guys all get kicked out of residency or something).

and "TSOM grads are not eligible for licensure in most states"???? maybe all but 2 or 3. 47-48 out of 50 isn't "most" by most peoples definitions. Another dip**** statement from someone who knows nothing and is here to troll.

No, I am not a student of this school, but I did start at a new school similar to this and then transfered back to a US school. The reason I am getting pissed about this thread, among others (I just don't have the time or will to deal with them all), is that schools like this give people a chance. If you have a bad experience at a school such as this one, then yes, by all means, come to this forum and post it, and it will be very informative and give people a good idea of what to expect. The **** that blows my mind is people that come into this carribean thread whenever they're bored, and just bash schools, clearly (as made evident on this thread) with no knowledge or research of any sort. If you're in the caribbean, you're going to have to work your ass off, no matter where you are, to get back to where you want to be. Might as well do it in a place where you're not competing against 800 other people for a CLERKSHIP spot (not a residency spot), IMHO


rant over, everybody enjoy your night!

I stand corrected. From the school's website: "Trinity graduates are currently eligible for licensure in 39 states." However, it's not 47+ like you claim, and 39/50 still sucks. The bottom line is that an enormous proportion of students who head offshore do not end up ever practicing medicine. Although I think it's better to try for a US MD/DO acceptance or an SMP, I contend that schools like SGU and Ross are not entirely a bad option. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter where you go to med school, because as long as you can pass the boards, you should be a competent physician. However, schools outside the big four do not have a great track record of graduating their students. And a sample size of 8-12 is not something on which I'd base my future.

In order:
US MD = US DO > Postbacc/SMP > Big four (AUC, Ross, SGU, Saba) > Australia/UK/Ireland > other, less known caribb schools like TSOM.

 

[TrinitySOM]

I have never even heard of it.

And by the way, if she scores average on USMLE as a Trinity student, she can pretty much forget about matching into a residency. Caribbean grads have to do better than AMGs in order to have the same chance of matching into a residency. Assuming she scored well on USMLE, and she came from Trinity, the best she would do in terms of residency would probably be family medicine or maybe psychiatry.

For someone who has never heard of the school is it fair to discourage others?

In the last residency match, Trinity grads matched in Surgery, Internal Medicine, Internal Medicine-Peds, Medical Genetics and OB/GYN, interestingly we didn't have any matches in Family Medicine which some believe you're relegated to as an International Medical Graduate. How you perform on Step 1 and Step 2 has far more bearing on your ability to match than does the medical school you attended. For the 50% of applicants who apply to U.S. Schools every year and cannot gain admission, there are good alternatives out there.
Trinity Admissions Advisor

 

[Top Gun]

For someone who has never heard of the school is it fair to discourage others?

In the last residency match, Trinity grads matched in Surgery, Internal Medicine, Internal Medicine-Peds, Medical Genetics and OB/GYN, interestingly we didn't have any matches in Family Medicine which some believe you're relegated to as an International Medical Graduate. How you perform on Step 1 and Step 2 has far more bearing on your ability to match than does the medical school you attended. For the 50% of applicants who apply to U.S. Schools every year and cannot gain admission, there are good alternatives out there.
Trinity Admissions Advisor

.

 

[Medstart108]

I stand corrected. From the school's website: "Trinity graduates are currently eligible for licensure in 39 states." However, it's not 47+ like you claim, and 39/50 still sucks. The bottom line is that an enormous proportion of students who head offshore do not end up ever practicing medicine. Although I think it's better to try for a US MD/DO acceptance or an SMP, I contend that schools like SGU and Ross are not entirely a bad option. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter where you go to med school, because as long as you can pass the boards, you should be a competent physician. However, schools outside the big four do not have a great track record of graduating their students. And a sample size of 8-12 is not something on which I'd base my future.

In order:
US MD = US DO > Postbacc/SMP > Big four (AUC, Ross, SGU, Saba) > Australia/UK/Ireland > other, less known caribb schools like TSOM.

This may seem biased since i'm at a UK medical school, but you cannot say that Caribbean medical schools are better than UK schools that have hundreds of years of history and were some of the founders of western medicine. I understand you are talking about applying to the U.S for residency, but even in those cases UK schools are not inferior to Caribbean schools.

The main advantage i see with Caribbean medical schools in terms of applying to the U.S is rotations in the U.S which is key.

However, it is not as if rotations in other 1st world english speaking countries are inferior. I don't see UK, Irish or Australian patients dying left right and center from incompetent docs.

Students are also able to obtain medical electives without problem.

 

[Unzbuzzled]

This may seem biased since i'm at a UK medical school, but you cannot say that Caribbean medical schools are better than UK schools that have hundreds of years of history and were some of the founders of western medicine. I understand you are talking about applying to the U.S for residency, but even in those cases UK schools are not inferior to Caribbean schools.

The main advantage i see with Caribbean medical schools in terms of applying to the U.S is rotations in the U.S which is key.

However, it is not as if rotations in other 1st world english speaking countries are inferior. I don't see UK, Irish or Australian patients dying left right and center from incompetent docs.

Students are also able to obtain medical electives without problem.

I ranked the choices based on how good they are at placing their grads in the US. While there is no doubt that UK/Western Europe/Australian schools are better than Caribbean schools, they don't have curricula geared toward the USMLE. If you're a US citizen wanting to practice in the US, the top four will probably prepare you for the US boards better.

 

[Medstart108]

I ranked the choices based on how good they are at placing their grads in the US. While there is no doubt that UK/Western Europe/Australian schools are better than Caribbean schools, they don't have curricula geared toward the USMLE. If you're a US citizen wanting to practice in the US, the top four will probably prepare you for the US boards better.

I see now. Thanks for the explanation

 

[medstudent79]

TSOM in St. Vincent is not accredited yet and is not recognized by the US Department of Education yet, therefore you have to take out a private loan through one of the loan companies they have an agreement set up with and the school gets the money directly and then disburses the rest of the loan money to the students after taking their tuition and boarding expenses and other fees.

They have had one graduating class thus far and if you go to Trinity, you cannot practice medicine in all of the states in the US.

There is a lot to consider before accepting to go to this school. You should have your sister reach out to the current students who attend there. They do have a Face Book page and you can reach students that way like I did.

 

[tracheatoedoc]

This may seem biased since i'm at a UK medical school, but you cannot say that Caribbean medical schools are better than UK schools that have hundreds of years of history and were some of the founders of western medicine. I understand you are talking about applying to the U.S for residency, but even in those cases UK schools are not inferior to Caribbean schools.

The main advantage i see with Caribbean medical schools in terms of applying to the U.S is rotations in the U.S which is key.

However, it is not as if rotations in other 1st world english speaking countries are inferior. I don't see UK, Irish or Australian patients dying left right and center from incompetent docs.

Students are also able to obtain medical electives without problem.

UK schools are not the same as Caribbean schools. In the UK students enter medical school after high school. I trained at a Caribbean school and did my third year at Mayday University Hospital with UK med students from the University of London which comprises the 6 med schools in London. They were mainly from Kings and St Georges (not the Carib St G). They were under the mistaken impression that their A levels were the equivalent of a BS from a US college. To put it bluntly, they receive a couple of years of undergrad level education and then start clinicals. At the time the students at Kings College were only required to study one part of the body in anatomy and their Pharm was a 2 week course where they intensively studied one drug or drug class as an example for their further studies. I remember working with 1 med student from Kings who said it was very difficult for a UK student to pass the USMLE. One person had done it in her class. He was considered the best student in her class and barely passed. Apparently did it to prove it could be done.
Based on my personal experiences, I would say the education in the Carib is theoretically the same as in the US, and the education in the UK is not.

I would recommend not going to trinity. Look into the big 4, and look into eurpoean programs specifically designed for US students

 

[bambi]

UK schools are not the same as Caribbean schools. In the UK students enter medical school after high school. I trained at a Caribbean school and did my third year at Mayday University Hospital with UK med students from the University of London which comprises the 6 med schools in London. They were mainly from Kings and St Georges (not the Carib St G). They were under the mistaken impression that their A levels were the equivalent of a BS from a US college. To put it bluntly, they receive a couple of years of undergrad level education and then start clinicals. At the time the students at Kings College were only required to study one part of the body in anatomy and their Pharm was a 2 week course where they intensively studied one drug or drug class as an example for their further studies. I remember working with 1 med student from Kings who said it was very difficult for a UK student to pass the USMLE. One person had done it in her class. He was considered the best student in her class and barely passed. Apparently did it to prove it could be done.
Based on my personal experiences, I would say the education in the Carib is theoretically the same as in the US, and the education in the UK is not.

I would recommend not going to trinity. Look into the big 4, and look into eurpoean programs specifically designed for US students

What nonsense

 

[Skip Intro]

What nonsense

What part?

-Skip

 

[tracheatoedoc]

I would predict that most Carib schools will be out of business in 6 or 8 years.

 

[Skip Intro]

I would predict that most Carib schools will be out of business in 6 or 8 years.

Or, they will have to significantly change their business model. The less-well-known/unknown schools are going to suffer. The "big" schools will adapt. There's too much money in it.

Several years ago, for example, Ross considered moving its campus to Wyoming.

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/jun/27/news/mn-50618

The time was just not right then. Perhaps this will change as, essentially, most (if not all) of the D.O. programs are basically for-profit... especially the new ones and/or new campuses of the long-established ones. Their model (i.e., one central campus for the book learning, then shipping students all over hell-and-creation for clinicals) is, for all intents and purposes, exactly like the current Caribbean model.

-Skip

 

[bambi]

What part?

-Skip

Er... all of it! Even the basics, like the number of med schools in London. Our secondary school education (high school) is superior to that in the US, I did things at 15 that you do in college (I am young for my year but still). I spent time in the US at what is considered one of your best medical schools and was chatting to one of the attendings about this and he was stunned by what we did at school. While I wouldn't say our secondary school is the same as a US college degree we do a lot in school that you don't touch until college. Our basic sciences is similar to yours but variable by school. All of the comments about Kings are essentially inaccurate. The few UK medical school graduates I know that have done the USMLE have done well, lowest score was still above your average at 230. All those I know that have done it had no dedicated study time and did it either alongside their own medical school exams or while working as a junior doctor. Our curriculum is in no way tailored towards it so it would have been entirely self directed but it is incredibly misleading to say that they all struggle.

Given the amount of time I have spent reading these boards over the years I actually expected to look/feel like a complete idiot in the US but was stunned by the poor knowledge of both students and junior residents. Clinical skills seem to be emphasised more here in general but apparently what was required for me to pass my 4th year OSCE (not our final year) is considered resident level knowledge over there!

 

[JaGoMD]

Or, they will have to significantly change their business model. The less-well-known/unknown schools are going to suffer. The "big" schools will adapt. There's too much money in it.

Several years ago, for example, Ross considered moving its campus to Wyoming.

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/jun/27/news/mn-50618

The time was just not right then. Perhaps this will change as, essentially, most (if not all) of the D.O. programs are basically for-profit... especially the new ones and/or new campuses of the long-established ones. Their model (i.e., one central campus for the book learning, then shipping students all over hell-and-creation for clinicals) is, for all intents and purposes, exactly like the current Caribbean model.

-Skip

From this thread, is one to think that being educated in the Caribbean is inferior to being educated elsewhere? Is it not education all the same? Sure it may be more difficult to have a dream match and one would need to study harder...so what? When was it that life decided to respect one's life plans.
Are Caribbean born to believe we will never be as "good", as "smart", as "lucky", as someone born in the United States? Speak freely. recognise though that words are ammunition that could hurt nations of people.

 

[bedevilled ben]

From this thread, is one to think that being educated in the Caribbean is inferior to being educated elsewhere?

Depends entirely on how you define a nebulous term like "inferior". Looking purely at the numbers, Caribbean MDs on average don't match as well as US MDs and DOs, and there are some highly competitive specialities that we are simply locked out of regardless of test scores.

Is it not education all the same?

Uh...no. No it's not. Not at all. That's precisely why we have standardized tests like the STEP exams, to ensure that regardless of where and how you were educated, you at least meet a minimum standard of knowledge.

Sure it may be more difficult to have a dream match and one would need to study harder...so what? When was it that life decided to respect one's life plans.

So what? Are you kidding me? So what if your goal is to become a radiologist and you go through the entire program, amass $250k in debt, and then you can't secure a residency? That is a life-crippling amount of debt to come back from. I'm not interested in the philosophical navel-gazing of whether life is or isn't fair. I'm interested in being able to pay back my debt while still being able to afford groceries.

Are Caribbean born to believe we will never be as "good", as "smart", as "lucky", as someone born in the United States?

It has nothing whatsoever to do with where you're born. Most Caribbean MDs working in the US were born in the US in the first place. It has to do with the prestige of your institution. You're only as competitive as your last institution.

Speak freely. recognise though that words are ammunition that could hurt nations of people.

Oh give me a break, words are wind. Having a thin skin is a surefire way to tank your medical education. If whole nations of people get their feelings hurt from an anonymous internet comment, they need to reevaluate their value system.

 

[JaGoMD]

Depends entirely on how you define a nebulous term like "inferior". Looking purely at the numbers, Caribbean MDs on average don't match as well as US MDs and DOs, and there are some highly competitive specialities that we are simply locked out of regardless of test scores.
.

Ah statistics, most often for this debate reference, an individual has a say in the matter. People don't magically fail at anything, destiny isn't real. Sure Caribbean students have to work harder for the same match, I'm sure the patient would be grateful for the extra work put in. I still insist education is the same, quality may be the subject of your point. You do have other valid points Ben, guess I'll start storing up my luck in hopes of things to come.

Also; internet comments, I see people charged in US courts for exactly such (not my value system)

 

[Skip Intro]

Ah statistics, most often for this debate reference, an individual has a say in the matter. People don't magically fail at anything, destiny isn't real. Sure Caribbean students have to work harder for the same match, I'm sure the patient would be grateful for the extra work put in. I still insist education is the same, quality may be the subject of your point. You do have other valid points Ben, guess I'll start storing up my luck in hopes of things to come.

Also; internet comments, I see people charged in US courts for exactly such (not my value system)

JaGoMD,

I think you are picking a bone with people standing on the same side of the fence.

-Skip

 

[JaGoMD]

JaGoMD,

I think you are picking a bone with people standing on the same side of the fence.

-Skip

I'm sorry I don't mean to offend or even play the devils advocate. It's just frustrating is all. Guess I'm just upset I'm already here. Ah well...life giving me lemons.

 

[Skip Intro]

Er... all of it!

Well, I simply asked what part and you said "all of it". I didn't know that was an invitation to a pissing match between education systems. But, you responded so let's correct some of your misinformation...

I did things at 15 that you do in college (I am young for my year but still).

...

While I wouldn't say our secondary school is the same as a US college degree we do a lot in school that you don't touch until college.

You may not be aware but many high school in the U.S. have what is called an Advanced Placement, or AP, courses. These are essentially college-level courses where students can get credit before even attending. When I was in high school (a long, long time ago), a kid in my graduating class entered a very reputable, highly-ranked U.S. university midway through his sophomore year because he had so much credit. So, while high school is high school, don't assume that you are uniquely studying subject matter that kids only get at the college-aged level here.

I spent time in the US at what is considered one of your best medical schools and was chatting to one of the attendings about this and he was stunned by what we did at school.

That's called an anecdote. I'm sure that there were plenty of other people, had you chatted with them, who wouldn't have been that impressed. Like me.

The few UK medical school graduates I know that have done the USMLE have done well, lowest score was still above your average at 230.

Again, anecdote. If that's what we're sharing, I personally know at least two UK graduates who couldn't pass Step 1 on the first attempt. I would agree with you that, overall, you get far better training in anatomy in the UK at the med school level. I think that's about it. The USMLE isn't really geared towards testing too much anatomy, though. I'm not busting on you, though. I'm simply asserting that anecdotes don't equal data, and without that you can't really have meaningful conclusions.

Given the amount of time I have spent reading these boards over the years I actually expected to look/feel like a complete idiot in the US but was stunned by the poor knowledge of both students and junior residents.

Well, again, without knowing what "top medical school" you were at and who you interacted with, this is again a fairly meaningless statement. People in training have a wide range of knowledge and ability.

Clinical skills seem to be emphasised more here in general but apparently what was required for me to pass my 4th year OSCE (not our final year) is considered resident level knowledge over there!

Are you talking about medical school or residency? I think you are making many incorrect assumptions based on limited personal observation, as tracheatoedoc did.

Fact is, in the U.S. the medical degree is considered a graduate degree, not an undergraduate one like in most of Europe. And, students in the U.S. model for the large part benefit from having those four extra years of undergraduate training in the basic sciences which also provides additional time to mature. We do have some 6-year programs that students can enter directly from highschool, but they are few and the exception to the rule.

Another fact is that the numbers provided by the NBME just do not mete out with your assertions in your response. Don't be personally offended; I don't think that was anyone's intent here.

http://www.usmle.org/performance-data/default.aspx#2012_step-1

-Skip

 

[bambi]

Well, I simply asked what part and you said "all of it". I didn't know that was an invitation to a pissing match between education systems. But, you responded so let's correct some of your misinformation...



You may not be aware but many high school in the U.S. have what is called an Advanced Placement, or AP, courses. These are essentially college-level courses where students can get credit before even attending. When I was in high school (a long, long time ago), a kid in my graduating class entered a very reputable, highly-ranked U.S. university midway through his sophomore year because he had so much credit. So, while high school is high school, don't assume that you are uniquely studying subject matter that kids only get at the college-aged level here.



That's called an anecdote. I'm sure that there were plenty of other people, had you chatted with them, who wouldn't have been that impressed. Like me.



Again, anecdote. If that's what we're sharing, I personally know at least two UK graduates who couldn't pass Step 1 on the first attempt. I would agree with you that, overall, you get far better training in anatomy in the UK at the med school level. I think that's about it. The USMLE isn't really geared towards testing too much anatomy, though. I'm not busting on you, though. I'm simply asserting that anecdotes don't equal data, and without that you can't really have meaningful conclusions.



Well, again, without knowing what "top medical school" you were at and who you interacted with, this is again a fairly meaningless statement. People in training have a wide range of knowledge and ability.



Are you talking about medical school or residency? I think you are making many incorrect assumptions based on limited personal observation, as tracheatoedoc did.

Fact is, in the U.S. the medical degree is considered a graduate degree, not an undergraduate one like in most of Europe. And, students in the U.S. model for the large part benefit from having those four extra years of undergraduate training in the basic sciences which also provides additional time to mature. We do have some 6-year programs that students can enter directly from highschool, but they are few and the exception to the rule.

Another fact is that the numbers provided by the NBME just do not mete out with your assertions in your response. Don't be personally offended; I don't think that was anyone's intent here.

http://www.usmle.org/performance-data/default.aspx#2012_step-1

-Skip

This was so long ago, I don't even remember what it was about and I can't be bothered to read it all but I will make a couple of quick comments.

The AP classes thing - that doesn't really go against what I said. Your AP classes, college level or not are not equivalent to our university courses, they are still like our high school.

Clinical skills seem to be emphasised more in the UK at all levels. As I said, what I needed to pass some of my medical school exams you don't learn until residency.

Finally, I always make the limit of my US experience very clear, I say how things seem from what I have seen and I am one of the few on this board that has seen things in the UK and US but believe/ignore what you like.

 

[Medstart108]

UK schools are not the same as Caribbean schools. In the UK students enter medical school after high school. I trained at a Caribbean school and did my third year at Mayday University Hospital with UK med students from the University of London which comprises the 6 med schools in London. They were mainly from Kings and St Georges (not the Carib St G). They were under the mistaken impression that their A levels were the equivalent of a BS from a US college. To put it bluntly, they receive a couple of years of undergrad level education and then start clinicals. At the time the students at Kings College were only required to study one part of the body in anatomy and their Pharm was a 2 week course where they intensively studied one drug or drug class as an example for their further studies. I remember working with 1 med student from Kings who said it was very difficult for a UK student to pass the USMLE. One person had done it in her class. He was considered the best student in her class and barely passed. Apparently did it to prove it could be done.
Based on my personal experiences, I would say the education in the Carib is theoretically the same as in the US, and the education in the UK is not.

I would recommend not going to trinity. Look into the big 4, and look into eurpoean programs specifically designed for US students

Ok, I can't say anything about about SGUL or KCL, but this is my perspective as a student from NA studying at a 6 year traditional (lecture based w/ full body dissection) course in the UK.

Our anatomy is very very thorough - We've studied the entire lower limb and upper limb in 1st year, thorax, abdomen and perineum in 2nd year and head and neck in 3rd year. We go very in depth, for example we are required to learn every muscle in the larynx (ary-epiglotticus, thyro-epiglotticus, cricothyroid, thyrohyoid, vocalis, posterior cricoarytenoid, lateral crico arytenoid, transverse arytenoid, oblique arytenoid etc), all the membranes, the blood supply, mode of action and innervation and this applies to every part of the body. I've compared our anatomy lessons to firecracker.me and we cover way more detail than firecracker.me does and the first aid book admittedly is a joke for anatomy. We pretty much know 90% of gray's anatomy for students by the end of 3rd year. We have anatomy practicals every semester and have full body dissection every week for 2.5 years. Admittedly, i've heard that my school is one of the more anatomy heavy schools but anatomy in the UK is truly top class.

Our pharmacology is also quite thorough - We study way more drugs than is covered in the First Aid book and are required so far only to know the mode of action of the classes, a few of drugs from each class, the side effects of those few drugs and occasionally what they are used to treat. By the middle of 2nd year, I'm honestly very confident in the systems we've covered (cardio and resp). We can read ECGs (all the normal, and a lot of pathology), read CXRs and CTs, know the heart anatomy "by heart", know enough physiology to understand the mechanisms of the body and treatment, all the major pathologies and methods of treatment.

Our OSCEs aka our clinical examinations are on par - by the end of 2nd year we can do a full body neuromuscular examination, venepuncture, full body cardiovascular examination, respiratory examination etc. I don't know if this was realistic but on one of those junior doctor shows a Italian Foundation Year 2 (aka 2 years out of medical school) doctor wasn't able to do a simple neuromuscular exam, something we learned in our 1st year.

We've heard anecdotally that last year 3 students took the USMLE step 1 after 3rd year, admittedly theres massive volunteer bias but 2 scored over 250 and 1 scored 220-230. Yes if you are at the bottom of your class in the school, you probably won't pass the USMLE, yes in the bigger picture i do believe that US medical students know more "facts" than UK medical students, but i'm definitely debunking the myth that UK students only have to learn 1 body part by the time they are in their clinical years and that UK students will be learning one drug class as an "example". If thats the case then it seems as though the 2nd years from my school clearly should be in that hospital in place of the clinical students at that hospital.

 

[Skip Intro]

The AP classes thing - that doesn't really go against what I said. Your AP classes, college level or not are not equivalent to our university courses, they are still like our high school.

They are college-equivalent courses for which you get college credit. I don't know how else to make you understand this.

-Skip

 

[bambi]

They are college-equivalent courses for which you get college credit. I don't know how else to make you understand this.

-Skip

They are the equivalent of US college. US college is the equivalent to UK school, not UK university, not every course, but a lot.

 

[Skip Intro]

In the U.S., "college" and "university" are essentially colloquialisms that are used interchangeably.

I think you suffer from the same affliction of which you initially accused tracheatoedoc.

-Skip

 

[Top Gun]

They are the equivalent of US college. US college is the equivalent to UK school, not UK university, not every course, but a lot.

Considering you have never taken an American high school AP course or studied in an American university, I really don't think you're in a position to judge the quality of education here.

 

[Top Gun]

Considering you have never taken an American high school AP course or studied in an American university, I really don't think you're in a position to pass judgment on the quality of education here.

 

[Top Gun]

Considering you have never taken an American high school AP course or studied in an American university, I really don't think you're in a position to pass judgement on the quality of education here.

 

[bambi]

Considering you have never taken an American high school AP course or studied in an American university, I really don't think you're in a position to judge the quality of education here.

But you are qualified to say that US education is equivalent to ours? Interesting. I have received some of my education in the US thanks.

 

[Skip Intro]

No, it's just different. A graduate with a MBBS degree is legally allowed to call himself or herself "doctor" here in the U.S., once appropriately licensed.

-Skip

 

[bambi]

In the U.S., "college" and "university" are essentially colloquialisms that are used interchangeably.

I think you suffer from the same affliction of which you initially accused tracheatoedoc.

-Skip

I am aware of that, not sure what you are getting at?

 

[Skip Intro]

I am aware of that, not sure what you are getting at?

You said:

They are the equivalent of US college. US college is the equivalent to UK school, not UK university, not every course, but a lot.

U.S. "college" and "university" are used interchangeably. For successfully completed AP courses (attended at the age of typical UK school students), one gets U.S. "university" (a.k.a. "college") credit. US college is not the equivalent to UK school. US college is equivalent to US university, is four years long, and usually starts at age 18 for most students.

Some U.S. college/university students get the opportunity, for example, to study abroad at Oxford - a UK university - while they are at the "college" level. Both offer an undergraduate bachelor's degree.

A primer: http://colematson.com/2012/01/05/oxford-vs-us-an-undergrad-degree-comparison-chart-glossary/

In the U.S. as far as medicine goes, the doctor of medicine degree (MD) and the doctor of osteopathy degree (DO) are graduate level degrees that offer you a doctorate. These programs occur typically occur AFTER you complete your undergraduate degree at the age of 22 and are attended for an additional 4 years. Unlike the UK where the MBBS/MBChB is (and other less common medical diplomas are) essentially a six-year program started at age 18, is completed by age 24, and offers an bachelor's level in medicine or surgery.

Clear?

-Skip

 

[bambi]

You said:



U.S. "college" and "university" are used interchangeably. For successfully completed AP courses (attended at the age of typical UK school students), one gets U.S. "university" (a.k.a. "college") credit. US college is not the equivalent to UK school. US college is equivalent to US university, is four years long, and usually starts at age 18 for most students.

Some U.S. college/university students get the opportunity, for example, to study abroad at Oxford - a UK university - while they are at the "college" level. Both offer an undergraduate bachelor's degree.

A primer: http://colematson.com/2012/01/05/oxford-vs-us-an-undergrad-degree-comparison-chart-glossary/

In the U.S. as far as medicine goes, the doctor of medicine degree (MD) and the doctor of osteopathy degree (DO) are graduate level degrees that offer you a doctorate. These programs occur typically occur AFTER you complete your undergraduate degree at the age of 22 and are attended for an additional 4 years. Unlike the UK where the MBBS/MBChB is (and other less common medical diplomas are) essentially a six-year program started at age 18, is completed by age 24, and offers an bachelor's level in medicine or surgery.

Clear?

-Skip

US college/university, whatever word you want to use is not, in general, the equivalent to UK university. At least in the early years of US college the work is far closer to what we do at school in the UK than what we do at university. For what it's worth, the vast majority of my family are American, I know a lot more about your schooling system than you seem to think or you do about ours. As someone who has studied abroad you obviously don't need to explain the concept of studying abroad to me! During my time at university in the UK I have met students from schools all over the US and as I have said spent some time in the US studying myself, the work is nowhere near equivalent. Also, attempting to explain the UK medical school system to me? Really? For a start most aren't 6 years so even your most simple "facts" are off. You may give your medical degree the title of "graduate" but the information is obviously the same, or are you suggesting physiology etc varies by country? This doesn't need to be a big argument, I suggest we agree to disagree.

 

[bambi]

Double post

 

[Skip Intro]

US college/university, whatever word you want to use is not, in general, the equivalent to UK university.

Um, it simply is. Sure, the way they test and grade you may be different, and the curriculum may vary, but they are baccaluareate and undergraduate degrees in the end. Equivalent.

It's like trying to argue that someone who studies and achieves a bachelor's of science in engineering is somehow innately superior to someone who gets a bachelor of arts in philosophy. While the materials studied may different to achieve those degrees, in the end they are equivalent bachelor's (a.k.a. undergraduate) degrees. But, you're making the illogical leap in trying to conflate this concept into some additional argument that the British education system is inherently superior to the U.S. one. It just isn't.

You may give your medical degree the title of "graduate" but the information is obviously the same, or are you suggesting physiology etc varies by country?

I already stipulated above that you get to call yourself "doctor" here in the U.S. with an MBBS or MBChB degree, i.e. that they are considered equivalent. I'm not the one who's been splitting hairs here, am I?

-Skip