Have any of your friends gone Caribbean Med?

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I'm sure you can understand the skepticism that their lack of transparency regarding attrition, scores and outcomes engenders.
It would be great if they posted these data (confirmed by a neutral third party) so your assertions could be validated.
I understand. Im just saying that almost everyone here that clears step 1 and makes it to clinical rotations ends up securing a spot somewhere on the first round. The first two years of basic sciences do weed out a lot of students that are either undedicated or don't possess the the intellectual fortitude to succeed academically. Our match list this year included over 900 residency positions.

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I understand. Im just saying that almost everyone here that clears step 1 and makes it to clinical rotations ends up securing a spot somewhere on the first round. The first two years of basic sciences do weed out a lot of students that are either undedicated or don't possess the the intellectual fortitude to succeed academically. Our match list this year included over 900 residency positions.
Take home message=If you come here and do well, you will secure a position somewhere in almost any field.
 
Take home message=If you come here and do well, you will secure a position somewhere in almost any field.
I'd say the Caribbean route should be avoided for those who think getting into med school = becoming a doctor. Those who aren't blinded by the flashiness of wearing a white coat, and know what they're actually getting into and that they aren't in the same position as their friends in the states, probably fare better. I'd almost suggest any incoming Caribbean students to crumble up their white coat into a ball and throw it into their closet for the first 2 years.
 
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The issue in advising applicants on this route is the risk. I have detailed this in numerous posts previous, analyzing available data and gleaning reliable information from various sources and have found that the "success" rate, which is the percent of students who start medical school, earn a degree, and gain any US medical residency slot, varies widely from US MD/DO to US-IMG. In the US, 97% of students earn a degree and 99% of those ultimately find a residency slot. Lets call it 95%+ success rate. For the "Big 3" off shore schools, overall attrition, lower matching rates, and virtually no SOAP (post match rates), puts the success rate at below 50%.

as I've said often, before considering any offshore school applicant must go through at least two application cycles for both MD and DO with at least a year break in between (ie skip a cycle) for application repair and/or enhancement. the break is necessary to analyze and understand the weaknesses in an application. Repair may be as simple as reorganizing rewriting application or it may require postbacc, SMP, MCAT, or additional extracurricular such as clinical volunteering and other items. I strongly advise that no student should consider off shore schools until the above has been done.
Cant speak for the other so called "big 2" but our placement rate is SIGNIFICANTLY higher. A lot of people spewing disinfo here.
 
No spewing disinformation here. If you are going to be a doctor, know your facts. Frankly, I demand am immediate apology for not knowing what you are talking about and have your reference at hand.

US citizens IMGs from Grenada matched at a 67% rate in 2013. This only includes active residency applications. Overall, 25% of all US-IMGs either withdraw or do not rank compared to 2% of US seniors. That would further reduce effective rate of matching. Lastly, only 2% of US Citizen IMG gets a SOAP (post match) spot. This of course does not include any account of the students who start SGU but never earn a degree, which ranges from 10%-20% compared to 3% of US students. Using data and giving most generous estimates, SGU has at best a 60% success rate, with reality being under 50%

So in a hypothetical class with best scenario estimates
100 Starting class
10 drop out
90 graduate and apply for residency
10 withdraw or dont rank
80 active residency application
36 do not match
54 match
2-4 post match

58 total get residency slots in best case
reality is likely lower
Grenada Residency Matches (SGU) 2013
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/resultsanddata2013.pdf

To follow up on my learned colleague's post, if any US medical school had numbers like the above their accreditors would shut them down.

Lmfao at the SGU student claiming that MCAT does not predict step preformance
Does the MCAT predict medical school and PGY-1 performance? - PubMed - NCBI
Also we know that each carrib practically drills STEP into your heads as a mandatory course. No **** you'd pass it.

And to follow up, there are multiple studies replicating this data at both DO and MD schools. Not, I'm not citing them. Do your own damn research.
 
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I know a girl who graduated this past year who is just starting out at SGU. I know that she applied to ~30 schools, including at least one DO school (UNE), and SGU was the only place she got accepted to. I don't know her too well, but I suspect that she probably didn't have a great MCAT score and possibly a weak gpa/weak experiences. Considering she is literally just coming out of college I get the sense that she didn't do any research or if she did, she doesn't know how to delay gratification.

I will say that I know she is dedicated and a hard worker, so I do hope that she ends up being successful. But to take such a risk...man I could never do that.
 
I have plenty of friends who are carribean grads who are great doctors in high paying specialties. You can make it there, it's just a high risk system is all. Going in not understanding the risks and the need to go an extra mile I think is where people get lost. This site definitely over emphasizes the failures but glosses over the successes. Ultimately I would never have gone there but luckily I did not have to.
 
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I have plenty of friends who are carribean grads who are great doctors in high paying specialties. You can make it there, it's just a high risk system is all. Going in not understanding the risks and the need to go an extra mile I think is where people get lost. This site definitely over emphasizes the failures but glosses over the successes. Ultimately I would never have gone there but luckily I did not have to.
Again, the point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.
 
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I deal with the data and do not gloss over anything. The issue to me as an adviser, do I feel comfortable in recommending a high debt enterprise where there are 40, 50, 60 percent effective failure rates (ie not either graduating or getting residency). The current landscape of opportunity for off-shore grads has vastly changed for the worse over the past decade with a peak of 7,144 pipeline spots to all IMGs in 2009-2010 and down to 6,693 in 2015-2016 or a reduction 451 slots, while Osteopathic grads increased over 1,100 spots in the same time frame and MD grads increased by nearly 2,000 slots.

ACGME Data Resource Book
(page 83)
View attachment 222699toom
I said this site, not you.
 
@gonnif
Does that chart reveal the failure to match of those applying to advanced residencies? If someone only matched for their prelim/trans year, but not their PGY2+ years, does that chart show that? If not, then that's another problem. I recently heard about a Caribb grad who matched only for trans year, finished that, and has no place now to go. Yet, he was probably reported as a success because he did have a partial match on Match 2016.
 
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I have plenty of friends who are carribean grads who are great doctors in high paying specialties. You can make it there, it's just a high risk system is all. Going in not understanding the risks and the need to go an extra mile I think is where people get lost. This site definitely over emphasizes the failures but glosses over the successes. Ultimately I would never have gone there but luckily I did not have to.
Yeah I agree. The Caribbean route is high risk but many students make it out just fine. The big problem with failing is that debt is life changing and will probably stick with those students until they die. I think people need to understand the likely consequences of going Caribbean as you've got 1K+ students leaving the Caribbean with no medical degree and essentially no means to pay off a 6 figure debt. At least with DO you aren't always one failed class away from getting kicked out.
 
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Many people who've been in high risk situations make it out just fine, but so many more don't.....so who'd wisely choose that route?
That's exactly what I meant. Just because somebody puts 100k on a roulette wheel and won, doesn't mean it's a good idea.
 
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Our match list this year included over 900 residency positions.

That's amazing. If you ignore the denominator. And realize that it's a placement list, not a match list (although it includes those who successfully went through the match).

According to their 2017 list, an average of 29% of their graduates who obtain residency positions do so outside the main NRMP match.
 
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Can someone please enlighten me as to why "DO vs Caribbean" is even a thing....
 
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No spewing disinformation here. If you are going to be a doctor, know your facts. Frankly, I demand am immediate apology for not knowing what you are talking about and have your reference at hand.

Grenada Residency Matches (SGU) 2013
View attachment 222685

US citizens IMGs from Grenada matched at a 67% rate in 2013. This only includes active residency applications. Overall, 25% of all US-IMGs either withdraw or do not rank compared to 2% of US seniors. That would further reduce effective rate of matching. Lastly, only 2% of US Citizen IMG gets a SOAP (post match) spot. This of course does not include any account of the students who start SGU but never earn a degree, which ranges from 10%-20% compared to 3% of US students. Using data and giving most generous estimates, SGU has at best a 60% success rate, with reality being under 50%

So in a hypothetical class with best scenario estimates
100 Starting class
10 drop out
90 graduate and apply for residency
10 withdraw or dont rank
80 active residency application
36 do not match
54 match
2-4 post match

58 total get residency slots in best case
reality is likely lower



http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf

View attachment 222684


http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/resultsanddata2013.pdf
View attachment 222686


View attachment 222687
View attachment 222688
Jeez, don't get all emotional bud.
 
This is complete bs. Im a 4th yr SGU student, and you can't even begin clinical rotations without clearing step 1 first. Our average step 1 scores are mid 230's and the VAST majority of each class matches every year. If you come here and do well, you will match in most fields. Its not all doom and gloom and by the way, MCAT scores are in NO WAY an indication of steps scores. I should know.
*citation needed*

SGU doesn't provide residency match rates of their students to the public, nor do they provide completion rates or Step scores, so it makes it difficult to say just how well their students do. Without data, I remain skeptical, as should most people. The Caribbean is a risk, plain and simple. SGU is the smallest risk and is a decent school, but it's still a massive financial risk when compared with a US school.
 
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Jeez, don't get all emotional bud.
These are the facts as we know them.
Sadly, these schools do not operate under the same rules as US schools and choose to hide their outcomes.
Their reason for doing so can only be self-preservation.
They are offering a high risk choice to a vulnerable population. In my opinion, they should be required to provide informed consent, just as we would for any risky procedure.
 
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Jeez, don't get all emotional bud.


TBH....the posts about the Caribbean that are emotional are typically from Caribb students/applicants/lucky-star-success-storytellers.

@gonnif wasn't emotional. It was more of: Just the facts, please.

Furthermore, I think you should apologize for calling him, "bud."
 
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I remember Ross had a table set up at my undergrad. I was pretty naive to the application process and was a pretty bad pre-med student. I walked by it thinking it's a med school, must be good, not knowing what Caribbean schools were. The lady working it asked what my GPA was and I shyly said "I think a 3.2... is that good enough?" She said "yeah that's fine", with an evil grin on her face like she had just found a sucker. I was actually shocked like "wtf, I'm a terrible student, and that's good enough? " Thankfully that was probably ~2 years before I graduated and then I learned about SMPs, etc on here.
 
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(Didn't read the thread don't care.)
One of my best friends from undergrand went to SGU. We don't talk anymore, but not because of difference in opinions. It is another country so it's just not easy to keep in touch.

That's all.
 
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In my masters program (where we were all gunning for med school acceptances) I was among maybe 5-6 people who got straight As. We all got into med school somewhere.

There were far more people who got maybe half As and half Bs. Most didn't get in anywhere in the states, so they found other careers and made really decent money.

Then there were those who struggled to make Bs and clearly didn't have the ability to succeed in med school. These are the ones who went to the caribbean.
 
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Wow. The amount of misinformation on this thread is staggering. As a current 3rd year SGU student who recently transferred, I recently did a lot of research on this topic with regards to match statistics from this particular school. Below is a chart from the registrars office recording the number of entering students in every term over the past several years. If you want to know how many people matched out of those who started, just go to their website and count how many matches are listed for each year. Then divide that number by the total for the two entering terms for a given year on the chart and you have your answer. For example, 1097 students entered in the class of 2014 (adding the sum of students who started in Spring 2010 and Fall 2010). Now if you go to the school's website and look at the match list for the class of 2014, you will see a total of 820 matches listed. So 820/1097=74.75% of those who matriculated secured residencies immediately after graduation. I did the math for each year, and it looks like it is consistently between 70 and 80%. Note that this does not take into account people who repeated a semester or did anything that extended their timeline (otherwise this range would likely be even higher). It reflects those who enter, graduate in 4 years, and secure a residency.
 

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Does the school's website take into account those students who didn't match the first time around and applied again in 2014?

No, and that is the one caveat to this data that could overestimate things. I believe this is balanced however by the fact that those who took longer to graduate are not considered in the calculation sample I gave above......Something else to note that I forgot to mention........when looking at the residency placement list on the website, I was told that it DOES take into account those who pre-matched and SOAPed. Apparently a significant number of students secure residencies this way and that is why judging these schools strictly by match rate may underestimate the success of students.
 
No it does not. The placement lists for SGU report per NRMP cycle not per graduating class. Therefore, it is the total number of either senior students or previous graduates from SGU who participated and found a residency slot, whether matched or non matched placement, in that cycle. It does not separate out seniors or previous graduates. It could be reasonably speculated that this ratio from year to year would remain similar, so there would be no major impact either negative or positive on the placement rate per match cycle. Nor does SGU separate out US IMG vs. Non IMGs. I would think some additional placements would be counted for residency in Canada and other countries (SGU has made a push to the India market over the past decade). So the table below represents matches into US programs only, which I think most readers here are primarily interested in (this information is on the match lists).

in year 2010, SGU had a total of 1125 students enroll. In 2013 Match, Grenada had 1050 active applicants as follows
(data from http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf
see Chart 15 for country specific numbers)

View attachment 222806

I am not debating whether or not the ratio will fluctuate much from year to year (I directly stated this in my post). I was mainly highlighting that the overall success rate is far higher than many people on this site like to claim. There is a big difference between saying that 1/4 or 1/2 of entering students will match when in reality more like 3/4 are securing residencies. This is reflected in both the school published data and the sources you referred to. Yes, there are matches in nations outside of the US (notably Canada, Grenada, and Botswana) but only a handful of students fall into this category. It is not possible to assess how many students in each match are repeat applicants or students who finished their training off cycle (i.e. taking 5 years to graduate). However, the same can be said about stateside schools as well. I attended a US osteopathic school for my preclinical years and many of my classmates had to repeat a year due to academic issues.
 
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Read the whole thread but to answer the main question yes . One friend is in his 1st year and is on the edge of dropping. One of my other friends finish the island portion a year ago and is still studying for step (or so he says). Lastly one friend who's a 4th year is applying for ortho with avg step scores so we'll see how this turns out. 2 went to SGU , 1 at Ross. All say the same thing , they regret doing but they are knee deep now so the have to keep pushing .


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And that is the part that for no matter how many years I have brought this up to SGU as well as the other schools, I do not get a good explanation on the total numbers they claim. And again, they note:

about 900 placements (not matches a year)
about 29% a year of those are non-match placements or 260 spots
This exceeds all of the non match SOAP spots to all of IMGs
I want to a reasonable explanation as to what this is.
My guess is that they are listing any postgraduate placement, whether into a residency slot or just a clinical spot that has no residency credit associated with it, that is beyond formal traditional or prelim years, is being counted, particularly with off-cycle cohort
Additionally, we have reliable attrition statistics, which would lower the "success" rate of starting school, earning a degree, and getting a slot. Since this is what students start medical school expect, it is a reasonable statistic to calculate.
I gave a reasonable working of these numbers previously in the thread repeated below. If you would like to propose something different on a hypothetical cohort of 100, please present your model

So in a hypothetical class with best scenario estimates
100 Starting class
10 drop out
90 graduate and apply for residency
10 withdraw or dont rank
80 active residency application
36 do not match
54 match
2-4 post match

58 total get residency slots in best case
reality is likely lower

I think the reason you are not being given the answers you want is because the data is very hard to accurately obtain. This is a result of the large class sizes, the fact that the school takes 2 cohorts per year, and that many of the students are from countries other than the United States. I would agree that the approximately 10% attrition before graduation you estimated is likely pretty close to accurate. The rest of it, I think you have may have miscalculated. I do not believe 10% of those who graduate will withdraw or not rank (considering that a vast majority of students who sit the Steps pass).
 
I think the reason you are not being given the answers you want is because the data is very hard to accurately obtain. This is a result of the large class sizes, the fact that the school takes 2 cohorts per year, and that many of the students are from countries other than the United States. I would agree that the approximately 10% attrition before graduation you estimated is likely pretty close to accurate. The rest of it, I think you have may have miscalculated. I do not believe 10% of those who graduate will withdraw or not rank (considering that a vast majority of students who sit the Steps pass).
The US schools seem to have no problem collecting and reporting this same data. :rolleyes:
 
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about 900 placements (not matches a year)
about 29% a year of those are non-match placements or 260 spots
This exceeds all of the non match SOAP spots to all of IMGs
I want to a reasonable explanation as to what this is.

The two most obvious are: (1) programs that opted out of the NRMP entirely when the all-in policy was implemented, and (2) off-cycle placements due to unexpected openings.

I glanced over the 2017 SGU PGY-1 data:
929 placements
16 not in the US
827 categorical
78 preliminary (45 surgery)
8 transitional

The two cohorts that entered in 2013 total 1,336 individuals, which would amount to a 69.5% placement rate if everyone finished on time. That is obviously not the case, and an unknown proportion of placements each year come from cohorts that entered 5+ years prior to landing a PGY-1 spot.
 
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Pretty crazy when you consider that they weed most of the troublesome students out through their feeder program: Foundations to Medicine.
 
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Yup, had one friend who went (had an MCAT score of less than 500), failed out after one year. Now, 100k+ in debt with nothing to show for it.
 
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No it does not. The placement lists for SGU report per NRMP cycle not per graduating class. Therefore, it is the total number of either senior students or previous graduates from SGU who participated and found a residency slot, whether matched or non matched placement, in that cycle. It does not separate out seniors or previous graduates. It could be reasonably speculated that this ratio from year to year would remain similar, so there would be no major impact either negative or positive on the placement rate per match cycle. Nor does SGU separate out US IMG vs. Non IMGs. I would think some additional placements would be counted for residency in Canada and other countries (SGU has made a push to the India market over the past decade). So the table below represents matches into US programs only, which I think most readers here are primarily interested in.

in year 2010, SGU had a total of 1125 students enroll. In 2013 Match, Grenada had 1050 active applicants as follows
(data from http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf
see Chart 15 for country specific numbers)

View attachment 222806


See full data and previous discussions in my posts
Match Rate 2013 Data By Country Have any of your friends gone Caribbean Med?
Decrease in IMG Pipeline Matches Have any of your friends gone Caribbean Med?
IMG SOAP Matches Have any of your friends gone Caribbean Med?
Only 1171 days left until Trump 2020.
 
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And that is the part that for no matter how many years I have brought this up to SGU as well as the other schools, I do not get a good explanation on the total numbers they claim. And again, they note:

about 900 placements (not matches a year)
about 29% a year of those are non-match placements or 260 spots
This exceeds all of the non match SOAP spots to all of IMGs
I want to a reasonable explanation as to what this is.
My guess is that they are listing any postgraduate placement, whether into a residency slot or just a clinical spot that has no residency credit associated with it, that is beyond formal traditional or prelim years, is being counted, particularly with off-cycle cohort
Additionally, we have reliable attrition statistics, which would lower the "success" rate of starting school, earning a degree, and getting a slot. Since this is what students start medical school expect, it is a reasonable statistic to calculate.
I gave a reasonable working of these numbers previously in the thread repeated below. If you would like to propose something different on a hypothetical cohort of 100, please present your model

So in a hypothetical class with best scenario estimates
100 Starting class
10 drop out
90 graduate and apply for residency
10 withdraw or dont rank
80 active residency application
36 do not match
54 match
2-4 post match

58 total get residency slots in best case
reality is likely lower
You people are so FULL of yourselves. Don't you have family or something else better to do. We take the same damn tests and score higher on average than most AMG's. You live in a bubble, you have no knowledge of what you are talking about. This whole convo is based on theoretical bull****. For every 10 you say don't stand a chance, i could list 20 that started programs this year...
 
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You people are so FULL of yourselves. Don't you have family or something else better to do. We take the same damn tests and score higher on average than most AMG's. You live in a bubble, you have no knowledge of what you are talking about. This whole convo is based on theoretical bull****. For every 10 you say don't stand a chance, i could list 20 that started programs this year...
Can't wait for the inevitable reply from the haters. No apologies offered for snowflakes.....don't care who you are.....
 
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You people are so FULL of yourselves. Don't you have family or something else better to do. We take the same damn tests and score higher on average than most AMG's. You live in a bubble, you have no knowledge of what you are talking about. This whole convo is based on theoretical bull****. For every 10 you say don't stand a chance, i could list 20 that started programs this year...

Can't wait for the inevitable reply from the haters. No apologies offered for snowflakes.....don't care who you are.....

Is it just me or is the "snowflake" insult usually preceded by whining?
 
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This is complete bs. Im a 4th yr SGU student, and you can't even begin clinical rotations without clearing step 1 first. Our average step 1 scores are mid 230's and the VAST majority of each class matches every year. If you come here and do well, you will match in most fields. Its not all doom and gloom and by the way, MCAT scores are in NO WAY an indication of steps scores. I should know.


You're a MS4, so the jury is still out. Are you applying for a competitive residency or a primary care? Are you applying to any ranked residencies?
 
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@gonnif I appreciate everything you do, but you must realize that a typical Caribbean applicant looks at a 40% rate to get a residency and thinks that is a fantastic opportunity. If they have above a 3.0 GPA, they think that they are already above their classmates who they presume are the 2.0 classmates who failed out of freshman Biology. In addition, they may think that prepping before school with First Aid or having a family member who is a residency program director means they are already destined to be one of the successful ones who contributes to the 40% rate. Not detracts from it.
 
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@gonnif I appreciate everything you do, but you must realize that a typical Caribbean applicant looks at a 40% rate to get a residency and thinks that is a fantastic opportunity. If they have above a 3.0 GPA, they think that they are already above their classmates who they presume are the 2.0 classmates who failed out of freshman Biology. In addition, they may think that prepping before school with First Aid or having a family member who is a residency program director means they are already destined to be one of the successful ones who contributes to the 40% rate. Not detracts from it.
On top of that, they're the ones who think that they will score 250+ on Step I, or will "work their ass off in rotations" [actual quote from such a candidate]. After getting < 500 on MCAT.
 
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Do people get bounced from the Caribbean after 1st or 2nd year, generally speaking?
 
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