Harvard or UF (state school)?

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hockey553

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Hello,

I was set on going to UF, my state school, however, I got accepted to HSDM just now. The price of UF is 280K versus 400K for Harvard. This is my main hesitation in accepting the offer from Harvard. I would obviously love to go there but am wondering if the prestige, education, and networking opportunities are worth the extra cost. I definitely want to specialize after dental school too.

Thanks in advance!

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Hello,

I was set on going to UF, my state school, however, I got accepted to HSDM just now. The price of UF is 280K versus 400K for Harvard. This is my main hesitation in accepting the offer from Harvard. I would obviously love to go there but am wondering if the prestige, education, and networking opportunities are worth the extra cost. I definitely want to specialize after dental school too.

Thanks in advance!

Your situation doesn't apply to most applicants. Go to Harvard, especially if you want to specialize.
 
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If you work hard at UF you'll still be able to specialize easily... mostly because you have to worry about rank.
Harvard will make it exceptionally easier.
 
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Okay, if you think the difference is only 120k, I will give you a reality check. Lets say you do a residency.

Ortho, Perio, Endo Take 3 years for most programs.
So lets use interest at 6.5%. For UF at 280k, by the time you are done with residency the total cost is about 396k for your 4 year dental education. If you add in the tuition for the residency programs, you could owe over 700k when you are done.
Now lets check out harvard. At 400k, by the time you are done with a 3-year residency you will owe 566k. Add in tuition for the residency programs and you will owe near 900k when you are done.

That is horrifying, 900k? Most people dont earn that in their lifetimes.

Peds, OMFS
The only two programs that dont charge tuition. Some Peds programs do so I would avoid those. So if you did a Peds residency you get paid a residents salary could be 50k-67k depending where. You could probably come out with about 370k by the time you are done. And Harvard about 530k. You can drive it lower by putting some of your salary on the loans, but you wont have much really. Maybe 10k a year going towards loans?

Depending on the track you are doing, the 6 year omfs may charge you tuition for medical school. (lol 1 million dollars in that case :naughty: if you went to Harvard). You will be in school for a minimum of 6 years + 4 years residency and racking up a bill that even if you won the million dollars on Who Wants To Be a Millionaire you still can't it pay off. Because gov't will tax that million and you will end up with 700k to try to pay off 1 million. You do get 4 years where you get paid 50k a year. But realistically you wont be touching the principle with that measly salary so Im not even going to start estimating how much you will owe.

If you didn't do a residency
You will probably owe about 320k from UF and Harvard will cost you 460k. If you factor in extra interest from tuition hikes, inflation etc the difference is probably around 150k. Could be upwards of 200k+ if you did a residency.

You can specialize from any where and I would encourage you take the cheaper option. That 200k difference could add an extra 10 years of repayment. All my calculations were done without interest capitalization, AKA when you start paying interest on interest.

“Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it ... he who doesn't ... pays it.”-Albert Einstein
 
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UF easily. Not only is UF cheaper, but it is a FANTASTIC school in an incredible state. If you got into Harvard, I'd bet you could match into a specialty of your choice at UF. Also, do you plan on living in FL after school?
 
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Agree with the sentiments, but I would argue against the characterization of Florida as an incredible state. Gainesville cheaper than Boston? You bet. Florida an incredible state? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I love Florida. It has beautiful weather, two gorgeous coasts, no income tax, but best of all, Disney World :D
 
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Agree with the sentiments, but I would argue against the characterization of Florida as an incredible state. Gainesville cheaper than Boston? You bet. Florida an incredible state? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I agree. I would hate to live in Florida. To each their own
 
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Just think of what you miss out on living in Florida...

You can't listen to the Red Sox on the radio. You'll never go sledding with your kid, build a snowman with them, or watch with joy as they jump in a pile of leaves. Your house will have no history or character; absent will be built ins and original wide panel hardwood floors and exposed beam ceilings. You and your wife will never get to cuddle up with a good book in the winter by the warmth of your wood stove. You'll never get to walk out of your house in the morning to hear it perfectly still, with the moonlight shining off the fresh snow and illuminating your breath as it rises against the sky.

You'll never get to take day trips to Boston or NYC, and have to get a plane to go skiing or to Fenway Park.

Instead, you are resigned to the choice of living in rural Florida, while affordable, has horrendously performing schools, or live in a good school district knowing that your life will be one endless flat road with strip malls, golf courses, old people, way too many dentists, and tourists. All the while, you will have perpetual swamp ass for at least ten months out of the year, with the heat and humidity causing you to keep spare shirts, socks, and underwear in your car at all times just so you can be dry for a few minutes and not feel like dying.

The city of Miami, not Miami beach but the city itself, is full of cool local culture/restaurants. I also enjoyed the one time I stopped in Gulf Breeze. Judging by the rest of Florida, I think it's safe to say that I would gladly pay over $50,000 in state income tax per year to never have to call it home. Never been to Disney and it looks/sounds like an absolutely horrendous time. Tampa sucks. Most of the state sucks. It's too crowded in any part that can adequately educate your kids.

I will concede that the amount of fishing to be had there must be pretty damn awesome. If I did live there, I would be miserable and question whether I enjoyed my very existence, but I would eat fresh fish every single day for dinner.
Kind of insulting!
 
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If you want to specialize Harvard is a no brainer but honestly I don't know how you already know that when you haven't even picked up a hand piece..
 
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Id go to UF. 100k+ is a frick load of money and you can specialize either way out of UF.
 
It was somewhat tongue in cheek. I wasn't kidding about the swamp ass; I sweat very easily. I also wasn't kidding about it being worth it to me to pay state income tax to avoid having to live there.

Definitely have met some great people from/in Florida, and have no doubt that for people who call it home, it can be a really nice place to live.

As others have said, to each their own. At least we will never fight over patients ;)
I'm born and raised in Chicago, but some of the best memories I have are in FL. Longboat Key, Naples, St Petes, Marco Island, Fort Laudy, and Key West are gorgeous. Although, I admit FL can't compete with my Cubbies or Blackhawks :rolleyes:
 
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UF easily. Not only is UF cheaper, but it is a FANTASTIC school in an incredible state. If you got into Harvard, I'd bet you could match into a specialty of your choice at UF. Also, do you plan on living in FL after school?
How much do you think undergrad GPA and DAT predict class rank and CBSE or specializing rates? Hypothetically, I think if you're a decent applicant who got into harvard (say 22 DAT 3.8+ GPA), you would be in a lot safer of a position in harvard than going to a state school where perhaps the top quarter or more students have stats like that. Not to mention there will be some students with lower stats that perhaps may try much harder in dental school to outcompete people in the top quarter at a state school. Learning more medical related stuff could help you ace the CBSE, and lowered stress b/c pass fail would allow more time to study for CBSE as well instead of spending more time trying to squeeze out that extra A to separate yourself from people near your rank. This all sounds "competition minded or gunnery", but if you're trying to specialize, a high rank seems to almost be a prerequisite (especially in ortho/omfs)

From a financial standpoint, if a specialty earns you 50k+ per year (which according to ADA averages it should be 120K more than general if you're private practice for both), it seems like it's a decent investment.
 
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If you asked me right now whether I'd go to the school I was accepted to or harvard, I'd choose my school. Still congrats, and frame up that Harvard acceptance !


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
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How much do you think undergrad GPA and DAT predict class rank and CBSE or specializing rates? Hypothetically, I think if you're a decent applicant who got into harvard (say 22 DAT 3.8+ GPA), you would be in a lot safer of a position in harvard than going to a state school where perhaps the top quarter or more students have stats like that. Not to mention there will be some students with lower stats that perhaps may try much harder in dental school to outcompete people in the top quarter at a state school. Learning more medical related stuff could help you ace the CBSE, and lowered stress b/c pass fail would allow more time to study for CBSE as well instead of spending more time trying to squeeze out that extra A to separate yourself from people near your rank. This all sounds "competition minded or gunnery", but if you're trying to specialize, a high rank seems to almost be a prerequisite (especially in ortho/omfs)

From a financial standpoint, if a specialty earns you 50k+ per year (which according to ADA averages it should be 120K more than general if you're private practice for both), it seems like it's a decent investment.
My dad got a high dat score and had a 3.0 undergrad. He became an orthodontist. The school does not matter, the mindset does.
 
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Hello,

I was set on going to UF, my state school, however, I got accepted to HSDM just now. The price of UF is 280K versus 400K for Harvard. This is my main hesitation in accepting the offer from Harvard. I would obviously love to go there but am wondering if the prestige, education, and networking opportunities are worth the extra cost. I definitely want to specialize after dental school too.

Thanks in advance!
I'd most likely choose UF, it's a great school. As someone else has said, frame the Harvard acceptance and save a boat load of money.

What's your DAT/GPA/ECs by the way? I haven't heard too many people get into UF.
 
My dad got a high dat score and had a 3.0 undergrad. He became an orthodontist. The school does not matter.
Honestly a lot of things "don't matter" in the context of a single data point. There are some variables that help or hurt. You're dad may have done fine, but there are some people who may be able to specialize easier from harvard vs a state school. We will never know, but let's not ignore the fact that p/f + curriculum catered towards CBSE are only going to help most people that are trying to specialize.
 
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Just think of what you miss out on living in Florida...

You can't listen to the Red Sox on the radio. You'll never go sledding with your kid, build a snowman with them, or watch with joy as they jump in a pile of leaves. Your house will have no history or character; absent will be built ins and original wide panel hardwood floors and exposed beam ceilings. You and your wife will never get to cuddle up with a good book in the winter by the warmth of your wood stove. You'll never get to walk out of your house in the morning to hear it perfectly still, with the moonlight shining off the fresh snow and illuminating your breath as it rises against the sky.

You'll never get to take day trips to Boston or NYC, and have to get a plane to go skiing or to Fenway Park.

Instead, you are resigned to the choice of living in rural Florida, while affordable, has horrendously performing schools, or live in a good school district knowing that your life will be one endless flat road with strip malls, golf courses, old people, way too many dentists, and tourists. All the while, you will have perpetual swamp ass for at least ten months out of the year, with the heat and humidity causing you to keep spare shirts, socks, and underwear in your car at all times just so you can be dry for a few minutes and not feel like dying.

The city of Miami, not Miami beach but the city itself, is full of cool local culture/restaurants. I also enjoyed the one time I stopped in Gulf Breeze. Judging by the rest of Florida, I think it's safe to say that I would gladly pay over $50,000 in state income tax per year to never have to call it home. Never been to Disney and it looks/sounds like an absolutely horrendous time. Tampa sucks. Most of the state sucks. It's too crowded in any part that can adequately educate your kids.

I will concede that the amount of fishing to be had there must be pretty damn awesome. If I did live there, I would be miserable and question whether I enjoyed my very existence, but I would eat fresh fish every single day for dinner.
Woah now. South Florida is actually really lit. It isn't going to have the skyscrapers one misses coming from big cities, but the "good" places to live are far from terrible. I hope I end up practicing here when I finish school. I travel to Miami 2x a week to hang out and eat good food, drive back up 45 minutes to go home and chill out and about in a less crowded location. Florida isn't all swamp, and I agree it could get pretty lame if you stay in Gainesville all the time. But you can't beat living in the West Palm Beach area
 
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Honestly a lot of things "don't matter" in the context of a single data point. There are some variables that help or hurt. You're dad may have done fine, but there are some people who may be able to specialize easier from harvard vs a state school. We will never know, but let's not ignore the fact that p/f + curriculum catered towards CBSE are only going to help most people that are trying to specialize.
If these are the circumstances that make you worried about your chances of specializing, you do not understand what it takes to specialize.
 
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If these are the circumstances that make you worried about your chances of specializing, you do not understand what it takes to specialize.
Alright. Guys listen to him. Pass fail (reduced stress, less competition among classmates) and medical school related curriculum (teaching according to the standardized test you take to GET INTO OMFS) does not help at all. If you think they do, you don't know what it takes to specialize. You gotta be hardcore and realize that things that help are for pansies and if you can't specialize from your state school you can't specialize from ivies. Also his favorite data point (his dad) is very statistically sound so be sure to reference that in future threads.

Sarcasm aside, OP if I were you I would think long and hard about this decision. If you are dead set on specializing, the AVERAGE income will offset the 120k+ extra debt within a few years. The 2 variables I listed that help are NOT ESSENTIAL to specialize but they HELP. How can you deny this?
 
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Alright. Guys listen to him. Pass fail (reduced stress, less competition among classmates) and medical school related curriculum (teaching according to the standardized test you take to GET INTO OMFS) does not help at all. If you think they do, you don't know what it takes to specialize. You gotta be hardcore and realize that things that help are for pansies and if you can't specialize from your state school you can't specialize from ivies. Also his favorite data point (his dad) is very statistically sound so be sure to reference that in future threads.

Sarcasm aside, OP if I were you I would think long and hard about this decision. If you are dead set on specializing, the AVERAGE income will offset the 120k+ extra debt within a few years. The 2 variables I listed that help are NOT ESSENTIAL to specialize but they HELP. How can you deny this?
Way to take everything out of context and anger because you are looking for shortcuts to specialize!
 
Alright. Guys listen to him. Pass fail (reduced stress, less competition among classmates) and medical school related curriculum (teaching according to the standardized test you take to GET INTO OMFS) does not help at all. If you think they do, you don't know what it takes to specialize. You gotta be hardcore and realize that things that help are for pansies and if you can't specialize from your state school you can't specialize from ivies. Also his favorite data point (his dad) is very statistically sound so be sure to reference that in future threads.

Sarcasm aside, OP if I were you I would think long and hard about this decision. If you are dead set on specializing, the AVERAGE income will offset the 120k+ extra debt within a few years. The 2 variables I listed that help are NOT ESSENTIAL to specialize but they HELP. How can you deny this?

The extra debt is 200k more and that is not easy to offset.
 
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The extra debt is 200k more and that is not easy to offset.
Exactly. OP is obviously smart enough to get into multiple incredible schools so I bet that he is smart enough to save $200K and still specialize.
 
Exactly. OP is obviously smart enough to get into multiple incredible schools so I bet that he is smart enough to save $200K and still specialize.
Yea OP has decent undergrad stats. I still don't get why people can't agree that p/f and med curriculum helps. Feralis chose columbia over a state school and he probably could've gone and specialized anywhere (28 DAT...). You think he didn't think he was smart enough to specialize anywhere?
 
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I agree with the general consensus that working and giving it your all will probably allow you to specialize from anywhere. But for some students, even if they worked extremely hard, they still may not be top 5,10,15 material. This is where p/f shines.

Also p/f not only reduces stress, but let's think study time. If there's student A at a state school on the cusp of a class (say an 89), he will have to put in much more time in that class to pull out the A. Even if that class is a much smaller part of the CBSE or boards, it could be the difference between top 10 or top 20. At some state schools, 5-10 people finish 1st year with a 4.0. dropping 5-10 ranks due to a class or 2 could be devastating, whereas having an extra B is still a pass at a p/f school.
E.G if student B had an 89 at a p/f school, they can maintain the same study habit for that class, pass, and still have time to study a more valuable class or CBSE.
 
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I agree with the general consensus that working and giving it your all will probably allow you to specialize from anywhere. But for some students, even if they worked extremely hard, they still may not be top 5,10,15 material. This is where p/f shines.

Also p/f not only reduces stress, but let's think study time. If there's student A at a state school on the cusp of a class (say an 89), he will have to put in much more time in that class to pull out the A. Even if that class is a much smaller part of the CBSE or boards, it could be the difference between top 10 or top 20. At some state schools, 5-10 people finish 1st year with a 4.0. dropping 5-10 ranks due to a class or 2 could be devastating, whereas having an extra B is still a pass at a p/f school.
E.G if student B had an 89 at a p/f school, they can maintain the same study habit for that class, pass, and still have time to study a more valuable class or CBSE.

Are you in dental school?
 
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Are you in dental school?

People who have gone to dental school + someone who landed a residency told me these things.
Let's talk undergrad (even though it's obviously way easier than d school). What is the difference between getting an 89 and a flat 90 in a class? The amount of effort that could change your grade 1-2 points could be almost nil. An example would be my friend who needed to get 50/55 questions right on a final to ace a class but got 49. If that were to happen in dental school, he would immediately drop a few ranks. If my undergrad was pass/fail on the other hand, they would still have learned a similar amount in the case of missing 1 extra question on a final but would not have the problem of dropping ranks corrrect? Do we need to be in dental school to understand this concept?
 
4) The last scenario would be a student that failed t o specialize at harvard, but for OMFS last year 7/7 applicants landed a residency position so pretty unlikely.

My school placed more people into OMFS than Harvard. One of my classmates dropped her Harvard acceptance for our in-state tuition.

Easy decision in my book. 120k + interest is a lot of money for investments and eventual financial freedom.
 
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wow congratulations! I think you should go to Harvard without any hesitations! A Harvard education will carry a lot of prestige throughout your career and patients will come to you because of it! Good luck.
 
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My school placed more people into OMFS than Harvard. One of my classmates dropped her Harvard acceptance for our in-state tuition.

Easy decision in my book. 120k + interest is a lot of money for investments and eventual financial freedom.
True but 100% (7/7) doesn't hurt too. Also looking at medians alone (180 for dental owner vs 390+ for OMFS), 120k+ interest would hurt but wouldn't be as devastating.
 
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OP there are a few people on SDN who would go to harvard. The majority believe p/f and CBSE are not worth the added cost though. I believe saving money and specializing is ideal, but to lose the opportunity that may have been would be devastating. We will never know if you're on the cusp where you may require that extra edge going to harvard. Make the choice you won't regret.
 
I don't disagree with this concept but I think that you, or perhaps whoever is giving you this advice, is overstating the importance of class rank. Obviously if you're in the bottom half of your class it is going to be much harder, but, in my opinion (I of course could be wrong), is that as long as you don't have an atrocious class rank you can really shine on the rest of your application and be totally fine for matching.

Depends on the specialty. Ortho tends to emphasize rank the most whereas OMFS you should be in the top 20 (my faculty don't look at you if you aren't in the top 10 or 20%). Other specialties it's more lax, like endo and perio but you should still be in the upper 50% for those.
 
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I don't disagree with this concept but I think that you, or perhaps whoever is giving you this advice, is overstating the importance of class rank. Obviously if you're in the bottom half of your class it is going to be much harder, but, in my opinion (I of course could be wrong), is that as long as you don't have an atrocious class rank you can really shine on the rest of your application and be totally fine for matching.
But being outside top 25 (no easy task) would be a hindrance correct? Also the person telling me said it's not that big a factor and I'd probably be fine anywhere. Not tryung to exaggerate it if it seems I'm overstating, but some of the people saying it doesn't help or you can specialize anywhere no matter what like it's not a variable are being naive IMHO.
 
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Depends on the specialty. Ortho tends to emphasize rank the most whereas OMFS you should be in the top 20 (my faculty don't look at you if you aren't in the top 10 or 20%). Other specialties it's more lax, like endo and perio but you should still be in the upper 50% for those.
I would just say some people that may have matched from an ivy may not be able to be top 20 at a state school.
 
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But being outside top 25 (no easy task) would be a hindrance correct? Also the person telling me said it's not that big a factor and I'd probably be fine anywhere. Not tryung to exaggerate it if it seems I'm overstating, but some of the people saying it doesn't help or you can specialize anywhere no matter what like it's not a variable are being naive IMHO.
These variables are not worth a mortgage on a house or a practice.
 
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People who have gone to dental school + someone who landed a residency told me these things.
Let's talk undergrad (even though it's obviously way easier than d school). What is the difference between getting an 89 and a flat 90 in a class? The amount of effort that could change your grade 1-2 points could be almost nil. An example would be my friend who needed to get 50/55 questions right on a final to ace a class but got 49. If that were to happen in dental school, he would immediately drop a few ranks. If my undergrad was pass/fail on the other hand, they would still have learned a similar amount in the case of missing 1 extra question on a final but would not have the problem of dropping ranks corrrect? Do we need to be in dental school to understand this concept?

So thats a no, You aren't in dental school yet. There are many other factors in residency applications such as the CBSE/GRE(ortho) and externships.

My issue with you is some of your statements. First of all since we are talking about specializing, its no longer a "120k" difference. It is closer to 200k at the minimum. Interest capitalizes during residency and thats like slowly having a sharp stick impaled into you Vlad the Impaler style.

Second, you are overemphasizing the importance of P/F. If you want to start with saying "oh so and so said this" Then I'll bring in that I've spoken to many many specialists and dentists and they all told me, school doesn't matter. Its all you. There are many other factors such as externships, CBSE, GRE(ortho), extracurriculars, research that are all part of the application process. Class rank is only 1 variable. If you are able to specialize out of harvard, if you put in the same effort you can specialize out of UF.

But being outside top 25 (no easy task) would be a hindrance correct? Also the person telling me said it's not that big a factor and I'd probably be fine anywhere. Not tryung to exaggerate it if it seems I'm overstating, but some of the people saying it doesn't help or you can specialize anywhere no matter what like it's not a variable are being naive IMHO.

You are naive claiming someone who specializes out of a ivy is unable to cut it at a state school.

I would just say some people that may have matched from an ivy may not be able to be top 20 at a state school.

Show me the statistics. Everything you've said is anecdotal.
 
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Hey OP, congratulations on your acceptance! That's a great accomplishment. There are some great points being discussed in this thread. It seems for you that going to a state school would definitely be cheaper than going to HSDM. However, the 400k price might not be your final price since HSDM does have a lot of money for fin aid, depending on your family's situation (the max amount of fin aid they gave out last year per student was up to ~29K, according to their website/fin aid document). For specialization, you should look at the released reports/data to decide for yourself what is important. According to this survey of program directors participating in the match process for dental residencies (https://www.natmatch.com/dentres/2014programreport.pdf), some of the most important factors are Class Quartile/Ranking and Dental School Transcripts (shown on page 8). It does not seem like the Dental School of Graduation is critical. Still, HSDM does not rank you nor grade you, so these two factors may not be as important. I assume this would mean the standardized test scores and and your extracurricular would be even more important. Ultimately, it's up to you to decide what you want to wager on. Best of luck with your decision!
 
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So thats a no, You aren't in dental school yet. There are many other factors in residency applications such as the CBSE/GRE(ortho) and externships.

My issue with you is some of your statements. First of all since we are talking about specializing, its no longer a "120k" difference. It is closer to 200k at the minimum. Interest capitalizes during residency and thats like slowly having a sharp stick impaled into you Vlad the Impaler style.

Second, you are overemphasizing the importance of P/F. If you want to start with saying "oh so and so said this" Then I'll bring in that I've spoken to many many specialists and dentists and they all told me, school doesn't matter. Its all you. There are many other factors such as externships, CBSE, GRE(ortho), extracurriculars, research that are all part of the application process. Class rank is only 1 variable. If you are able to specialize out of harvard, if you put in the same effort you can specialize out of UF.



You are naive claiming someone who specializes out of a ivy is unable to cut it at a state school.



Show me the statistics. Everything you've said is anecdotal.
Didn't say they were unable to lol read closer next time
 
Didn't say they were unable to lol read closer next time
I would just say some people that may have matched from an ivy may not be able to be top 20 at a state school.

Just because you put "may" doesn't make your statement any less inaccurate.

Oh, I get it now. You still have the pre-med mindset. How could I have missed that. In the medical forums they stress the hell out of going to the more prestigious school because in medicine it DOES impact residency rates.

Welcome to the pre-dental world! Established schools such as UF does NOT hold any disadvantages in regards to residency compared to ivy leagues.
 
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Just because you put "may" doesn't make your statement any less inaccurate.

Oh, I get it now. You still have the pre-med mindset. How could I have missed that. In the medical forums they stress the hell out of going to the more prestigious school because in medicine it DOES impact residency rates.

Welcome to the pre-dental world! Established schools such as UF does NOT hold any disadvantages in regards to residency compared to ivy leagues.
Not having disadvantage =/= ivies not having advantage. Just price may or may not be worth in some pole minds. Idk why Feralis and tyjacobs 26+ dat people would choose ivies if they can easily be top at state schools. Also this is the account I used to ask some premeds/med stuff bc they are generally more active on sdn and are often very type a. But I'm glad most ppl are arguing for state schools since it reaffirms my choice of attending one I guess.
 
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