Griffith Vs. Flinder's Vs. Deakin

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mgg10

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HI all,
I'm a Canadian applicant who has been accepted at Griffith, Deakin and Flinders to start the MD program in Feb 2018. I was wondering if anyone had any insight on these schools, I would ideally like to know which of these schools would perhaps allow for a better chance/facilitate the process to be able to match back home. Does the reputation/ranking of these schools matter when selecting schools? Any feedback/ info on their medical programs would be greatly appreciated. Which out of the three schools has a stronger track record of Canadians have been matched successfully back home in the past? Thanks in advance!

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HI all,
I'm a Canadian applicant who has been accepted at Griffith, Deakin and Flinders to start the MD program in Feb 2018. I was wondering if anyone had any insight on these schools, I would ideally like to know which of these schools would perhaps allow for a better chance/facilitate the process to be able to match back home. Does the reputation/ranking of these schools matter when selecting schools? Any feedback/ info on their medical programs would be greatly appreciated. Which out of the three schools has a stronger track record of Canadians have been matched successfully back home in the past? Thanks in advance!
Several questions in here:

1) Not sure how the match works back to Canada, but presumably Canada has a resource which lists overseas medical schools that they'd accept or not accept (similar to ECFMG in the US)?

2) Probably best to contact each med school and ask them for a list of where their graduates went. Tell them you're a Canadian and want to return home. They should be able to provide you this information. Or at least point you in the right direction. Otherwise it's just anecdotal evidence, which can be useful, but might not give a more complete picture.

3) In terms of reputation in Australia, I'd say Flinders is the best of the three by far. It's certainly been around the longest and is the most established. It should have a solid track record including a solid track record placing IMGs back home. I know Flinders certainly has had American and Canadian students.

The other two are relatively new medical schools. I know Griffith is not viewed as favourably in Queensland as UQ and James Cook. I don't as much about Deakin's medical school except that it's fairly new (maybe around 10 years old). The two most reputable medical schools in Victoria are the University of Melbourne and Monash.

4) As far as Australia is concerned, you'll still be a physician graduating from any of these three, so I don't mean to suggest anything bad about them.

5) Consider location. Each of the medical schools is located in very different parts of Australia.

Good luck!
 
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None of the rankings matter.
Imo they're about the same. Griffith and Deakin are both small, have hardly any internationals (ahem Canadians). So hardly any support to going back - because no staff will know how Canada works. There'll be hardly any alum or upperclassmen. Flinders is bigger, in a city. But its international cohort is mainly Singaporean. So again.

You go to any of those schools with the aim of matching back you're virtually on your own. With maybe a handful or less than that of other North Americans. The schools will definitely offer sympathy but not much else. And why would they. No faculty will have ever worked in Canada and training is so different. The Australian structure is not set up to send you direct into vocational training or "residency" as it means in North America.

Because no one in Canada will know your Australian school, not like their local ones, you're also looking mainly working incredibly hard to match in IM or rural FM. Which is great if that's actually what you want. But you have to work twice as hard as any CMG.

Lol the rep of UQ, JCU, Bond and Griffith hardly matter. They're simply very different. As are the grads coming out of them. UQ is not what it once was. The curriculum was built for 100-200. I've heard faculty bemoan this. Class sizes are now 550 and growing.
 
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Flinders was the first Australian med school to go grad (?1995), specifically to attract Canadians for badly needed money back then (at a time when many med schools were going broke). They have had a smallish (I believe 20 or so) Canadian contingent each year since then, at least up until a few years ago. They also had arrangements with N. American schools to allow for overseas clinical terms. One of the founding members of studentdoctor.net -- Kimberli Cox if I recall -- went there before surg residency back in N. America. She seemed somewhat ambivalent here about her experience a number of years back, while acknowledging she was able to excel after med there; note also that she would have been in one of the first few cohorts -- of both the grad program and their initial push for Canadians.

So...obviously old news, as would be of my anecdote of LOVING their interview process when I first applied to med in 2003.

At any rate, you should speak directly with Flinders to find out how many Canadians they take each year, and whether they still have those agreements w/ N. American schools. If they've continued along this route, they would at least be in tune with the needs of Canadians, and would have the critical mass necessary for organized student support/study groups.
 
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Go to the school in a state that puts you in the highest priority ranking for getting an Australian internship as an IMG.
Statistically your chances of coming back to Canada is ~50% according to CARMs data. That's the only stat that matters. I doubt Canadian program directors care about Australian school rankings. I would focus on getting a US residency instead of Canadian.
 
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Just to clarify what I said above:

1) As I originally said, I'm talking about reputation of these schools in Australia. That might only matter if you want to stay in Australia. I'm in Sydney, and I can tell you while there's nothing wrong with any of the newer medical schools, and their grads still get on to trainee spots coming from any school, there's still some (unfair) biases toward the more known medical schools over the newer ones. This should change in time, but it may take some years.

2) Honestly, if you just want to be a physician, then "reputation" doesn't matter at the end of the day. You'll still be a doctor graduating from any of the three.

3) More importantly, "reputation in Australia" doesn't matter at all when it's about Canada. The only thing that matters is being able to go back to Canada.

4) As such the real question is which of the three gives you the best chance of going back to Canada. I don't know because I don't Canada.

5) Personally speaking, I would pick Flinders of the three for the reasons people have said above. But at the end of the day the decision is yours and again you'll still be a physician graduating from any of the three.

6) However, what @Toothachee101 said about going to the school in the state that puts you in the highest priority ranking for getting an Australian internship as an IMG is very good advice, in case you can't return to Canada (at least not immediately).

7) I'm more familiar with trying to get a US residency if you have any questions.
 
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1) As I originally said, I'm talking about reputation of these schools in Australia. That might only matter if you want to stay in Australia. I'm in Sydney, and I can tell you while there's nothing wrong with any of the newer medical schools, and their grads still get on to trainee spots coming from any school, there's still some (unfair) biases toward the more known medical schools over the newer ones. This should change in time, but it may take some years.
I went to med school in QLD.
Rep doesn't matter any more to hospitals either. UQ is not what it used to be.
Some of the teams prefer interns coming out of JCU - because they have a preintern year. they have more well honed practical skills than other grads.

Also, QLD is not merit based. Domestic Australian interns can preference, but it's random allocation. the hospitals don't get to choose. they get what they get. I'm serious. Call any QLD hospital. It's merit based for international yes, but only for whatever's left over after domestics have a job, and it won't be in Brisbane or Cairns.

Go to the school in a state that puts you in the highest priority ranking for getting an Australian internship as an IMG.
Statistically your chances of coming back to Canada is ~50% according to CARMs data. That's the only stat that matters. I doubt Canadian program directors care about Australian school rankings. I would focus on getting a US residency instead of Canadian.
Agree, but what you are going to do after the intern year? VISA situation is not great right now.
Also, OP wants to go back to Canada.

Not all Canadians (who were born in a raised in universal healthcare) are going to want to practice in the US. Anecdotal yes - but I've met Canadians who choose to not go to the US. while similar, it's a different medical culture. We're talking different countries here. I wouldn't call someone from the UK an Australian, and yet they share a similar medical training framework.

Which out of the three schools has a stronger track record of Canadians have been matched successfully back home in the past?
Forgot to mention skew.
Not all Canadians/Americans apply for matches back home.
Not all who attend Australian schools take the MCCEE (or USMLE steps) and not all will pass or get great scores.

most who apply for the match know they have a chance. i.e. they have the scores and the LORs. they know they have their application together. if you have a strong application, you manage to do well on the boards, maybe your chances are 80% (for FM or IM). If you failed something or have a borderline score, your chances are much lower. So whenever you look at data, take it with a grain of salt.
 
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Forgot to mention:
this is probably the most important take home if you decide to go offshore to Australia for school:
At any rate, you should speak directly with Flinders to find out how many Canadians they take each year, and whether they still have those agreements w/ N. American schools.
Your ability to do electives.
Your ability to network back home or get research with someone at home.
it is phenomenally hard to arrange overseas electives on your own. Not impossible, just a chore without a guarantee of any outcome.

The medical school to medical school agreements (not university level ones - those are useless) remove the challenges.
They also make it slightly easier for you to match into programs at home, because the program will be more familiar with your school (students from your school have done 'exchange' rotations there before). they're familiar with the 'brand'. It opens the door a touch more for you compared to other IMGs.

That said...when you do ask, ask how many spots they offer on 'exchange' rotations. Often it is an exchange. the other medical school sends students to Flinders in your stead. So it may be limited in number, they may restrict who can apply by GPA something else etc. There could be fine print, nevertheless.
 
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I went to med school in QLD.
Rep doesn't matter any more to hospitals either. UQ is not what it used to be.
Some of the teams prefer interns coming out of JCU - because they have a preintern year. they have more well honed practical skills than other grads.

Also, QLD is not merit based. Domestic Australian interns can preference, but it's random allocation. the hospitals don't get to choose. they get what they get. I'm serious. Call any QLD hospital. It's merit based for international yes, but only for whatever's left over after domestics have a job, and it won't be in Brisbane or Cairns.
I think that misses my point. I'm not here to argue over UQ.

My only point is as far as "reputation" goes, UQ and James Cook are more "reputable" than Griffith (as far as anyone cares about "reputation"). But as I've said repeatedly you'll still be a doctor coming from Griffith.

And just to be clear: I personally don't care about "reputation" since I think "reputation" is more of a popularity contest.

More importantly, does "reputation" even matter for an international student who wants to return to Canada? No, and I never claimed otherwise.
Agree, but what you are going to do after the intern year? VISA situation is not great right now.
If you're referring to me, I'm Australian, so I don't have this problem.
Also, OP wants to go back to Canada.
Yes, and that's why I suggested OP contact the various schools, check with the relevant boards or organisations in Canada, etc.
Not all Canadians (who were born in a raised in universal healthcare) are going to want to practice in the US. Anecdotal yes - but I've met Canadians who choose to not go to the US. while similar, it's a different medical culture. We're talking different countries here. I wouldn't call someone from the UK an Australian, and yet they share a similar medical training framework.
That's up to OP. They can decide whether or not they want to try to go to the States. It's just another option for OP. Nothing wrong with that.
Forgot to mention skew.
Not all Canadians/Americans apply for matches back home.
Not all who attend Australian schools take the MCCEE (or USMLE steps) and not all will pass or get great scores.
That's a good point that OP should consider.
 
Oh good grief.
"Agree, but what you are going to do after the intern year? VISA situation is not great right now.
If you're referring to me, I'm Australian, so I don't have this problem."

This was not directed at you, it was a response to toothache. I was agreeing with toothache but I'm also a resident talking to a med student (or soon to be a med student) - that's advice. think about afterwards if you're going to be an international student.

(also, how do you think the rest of the international students reading what you just wrote are going to feel? "i don't have this problem" if you meant well great, but think about how you come across)

and yes, I know you're Australian, I remember what you wrote to me in other threads. Also that you have dual citizenship with the states. taht you haven't done rotations in hte US and read a lot of threads on SDN. And believe that gives you the ability to compare. And that's fine. doesn't bother me.

Similarly, I'm reminding toothache that OP wants Canada (not the USA or Australia on the basis of the post), not a response to you. but thanks for responding. Also toothache, I'm not trying to be mean. Just saying. not all Canadians, want to go south of the border, and similarly, not all Americans want to move and work to Canada.

Again last part was not to you, bashwell, to toothache. not saying OP can't decide, but to get you guys to think about it. and toothache outright advised just US for residency instead of Canada. I would not recommend this. Not unless OP is prepared to do electives in both the US and Canada before applying to either country. I know Canadians who did this, or who studied for both USMLES and the EE. Some didn't care and would do either the US or Canada. But some also would rather do rural FM in Canada that anything in the US. It was that different to them.


I know Griffith is not viewed as favourably in Queensland as UQ and James Cook.
For goodness sake.
No you missed my point.
But maybe I wasn't clear enough.

You actually made the comparison by suggesting UQ was 'more reputable in QLD". I corrected you because I know this isn't the case anymore, not with all hospitals in QLD.

No it's not a popularity contest. My point is that there are differences in the schools. by definition reputable means being well regarded and having a good reputation. I'm saying Griffith is well regarded right now, as is JCU. Hell, some QLD students will currently choose Griffith or JCU over UQ. Not because it is the only choice. We joke about Bond, but even Bond is "reputable".

What I mean by reputable (I have no idea what you mean anymore) is that consultants talk about it. They talk about the interns and the schools that produce them. We all compare each other too on rotation. not in a competitive sense necessarily either.

Finally, I was trying to find OP in this and keep it directed to what they're specifically looking for. Not trying to be assinine or deliberately critical. This is all about OP.

In general, Bashwell, don't take this the wrong way.
I think you should be predicating your posts with you're an Australian when you give advice to internationals coming to Australia (just suggesting by the way). Not to say it's downgrading your advice by any means, its still helpful. But it's a different lens, an important one none the less. At least in this forum, many people appreciate hearing from the locals. But it helps them to know where the info is coming from. Particularly where the experience is so..raw and different, and to an extent, starting at a disadvantage for internationals (in a case where so much of where you eventually work is based on your PR status or the geographical location of your school. it's such a sensitive and critical issue for them. it can affect their whole life, not just 4 years). Unless you can you say you're an Australian from the Oceania school of medicine in Samoa (where there are Australians who couldn't get into medical school in Australia).

anyway.. i'm going back to preparing myself for another unexciting and gruelling long shift at work. I'm outta this thread and SDN for a bit. I'm really low on patience for quibbling with people on internet forums.

Edited for clarity
 
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Oh good grief.
"Agree, but what you are going to do after the intern year? VISA situation is not great right now.
If you're referring to me, I'm Australian, so I don't have this problem." This was not directed at you, it was a response to toothache.

and yes, I know you're Australian, I remember what you wrote to me in other threads. Also that you have dual citizenship with the states. taht you haven't done rotations in hte US and read a lot of threads on SDN. And believe that gives you the ability to compare. And that's fine. doesn't bother me.

Similarly, I'm reminding toothache that OP wants Canada (not the USA or Australia on the basis of the post), not a response to you. but thanks for responding. Also toothache, I'm not trying to be mean. Just saying. not all Canadians, want to go south of the border, and similarly, not all Americans want to move and work to Canada.

Again last part was not to you, bashwell, to toothache. not saying OP can't decide, but to get you guys to think about it. and toothache outright advised just US for residency instead of Canada. I would not recommend this. Not unless OP is prepared to do electives in both the US and Canada before applying to either country. I know Canadians who did this, or who studied for both USMLES and the EE. Some didn't care and would do either the US or Canada. But some also would rather do rural FM in Canada that anything in the US. It was that different to them.



For goodness sake.
No you missed my point.
But maybe I wasn't clear enough.

You actually made the comparison by suggesting UQ was 'more reputable in QLD". I corrected you because I know this isn't the case anymore, not with all hospitals in QLD.

No it's not a popularity contest. My point is that there are differences in the schools. by definition reputable means being well regarded and having a good reputation. I'm saying Griffith is well regarded right now, as is JCU. Hell, some QLD students will currently choose Griffith or JCU over UQ. Not because it is the only choice. We joke about Bond, but even Bond is "reputable".

What I mean by reputable (I have no idea what you mean anymore) is that consultants talk about it. They talk about the interns and the schools that produce them. We all compare each other too on rotation.

Finally, I was trying to find OP in this and keep it directed to what they're specifically looking for. Not trying to be assinine or deliberately critical. This is all about OP.

In general, Bashwell, don't take this the wrong way.
I think you should be predicating your threads with you're an Australian when you give advice to internationals coming to Australia (just suggesting by the way). Not to say it's downgrading your advice by any means, its still helpful. But it's a different lens, an important one none the less. At least in this forum, many people appreciate hearing from the locals. But it helps them to know where the info is coming from. Particularly where the experience is so..raw and different. Unless you can you say you're an Australian from the Oceania school of medicine in Samoa (where there are Australians who couldn't get into medical school in Australia).

anyway.. i'm going back to preparing myself for another unexciting and gruelling long shift at work. I'm outta this thread and SDN for a bit. I'm really low on patience for quibbling with people on internet forums.

Edited for clarity
1) I'll skip all the personal fuss, some of which isn't even true, sorry to say, and some of which is borderline ad hominem, but I agree with you that a lot of this is just quibbling. Really, I think we can both agree (I hope) that the only thing that matters is OP is Canadian and wants to go back to Canada. So which of the three schools in Australia will be best for that goal? That's the main question.

2) Of course, OP should consider contingency plans in case OP can't return to Canada, which is a real possibility. One contingency plan is to try to remain in Australia. Another is to try to do residency in the States.

3) Sorry but again I think you missed my point about reputation. I never said Griffith was not well regarded or reputable, full stop. I never made that assumption. Rather I'm saying Griffith is "less" reputable than UQ or JCU. But I also said that given enough time reputations will change. Perhaps UQ and JCU have trended downwards in reputation in recent years, and perhaps Griffith has trended upwards. Perhaps in future Griffith will be more reputable than either UQ or JCU. But currently I still see UQ and JCU as more "reputable" than Griffith -- which does not mean Griffith is not reputable! As I've said, Griffith is perfectly fine to become a physician. By the way, did you graduate from Griffith? Just curious.

4) However, as I've said, I don't think any of this matters for OP. Not if OP wants to return to Canada. However, if OP ends up staying in Australia, then these things may matter. Not in terms of internships since they're by ballot and randomly allocated as you pointed out, but applying for registrar positions is merit-based. And I think some of the older consultants who are in positions to make or break careers actually do care more about things like "reputation" than any of us would care (again, I personally don't care). I hope that will change when they begin to retire.
 
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I went to med school in QLD.
Rep doesn't matter any more to hospitals either. UQ is not what it used to be.
Some of the teams prefer interns coming out of JCU - because they have a preintern year. they have more well honed practical skills than other grads.

Not all Canadians (who were born in a raised in universal healthcare) are going to want to practice in the US. Anecdotal yes - but I've met Canadians who choose to not go to the US. while similar, it's a different medical culture. We're talking different countries here. I wouldn't call someone from the UK an Australian, and yet they share a similar medical training framework.

I mean, you don't have to practice in US. I brought that up because if your goal is to practice in Canada, it's substantially easier to get a US residency and then making your way to Canada. Matching directly to a Canadian residency as an IMG is just a nightmare.
Agreed on the visa issues. I hope all Canadians going to Aus are aware of it. It drives me crazy that kids are heading to Aus without even knowing about the moratorium, chances of residency etc.
 
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lol nope. not a griffith grad. but have friends who are.

2) Of course, OP should consider contingency plans in case OP can't return to Canada, which is a real possibility. One contingency plan is to try to remain in Australia. Another is to try to do residency in the States.

And it is a harsh reality. but it's not that simple to apply for residency in the US for someone who isn't American, even if they share a border.

US is viable as an alternative, but honestly. as i've said. there's Canadians that prefer - 'not the USA', even if it's Australia temporarily. It's almost like..telling an Irish person they're "English". I don't meant it superficially, some just don't wanna work in the American system. obviously not all. there's plenty of Canadian ex-pats in the US.

I wouldn't underestimate the difficulty and work load that this particular group will take on by taking two different sets of board exams. Canada has it's own version of the Step 2 Ck and CS. it's asking a lot of a Canadian to take all 3 USMLE steps and do the Canadian ones.

Also, going US, means they won't get to go home. I shouldn't say never, but they won't get a chance to live with their families for close to 10 years. Some of them do have that hope of going back to their home after 4 years. It sucks they believe they can make it back, when a good number won't.

There's no DO programs in Canada, and there's far fewer MD schools> I really feel for them, when they really just want to go home. Probably, some of those Canadians should do DO, but a lot of them don't know what "DO" is.
 
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lol nope. not a griffith grad. but have friends who are.



And it is a harsh reality. but it's not that simple to apply for residency in the US for someone who isn't American, even if they share a border.

US is viable as an alternative, but honestly. as i've said. there's Canadians that prefer - 'not the USA', even if it's Australia temporarily. It's almost like..telling an Irish person they're "English".

I wouldn't underestimate the difficulty and work load that this particular group will take on by taking two different sets of board exams. Canada has it's own version of the Step 2 Ck and CS. it's asking a lot of a Canadian to take all 3 USMLE steps and do the Canadian ones.

Also, telling someone that they will never go home. Never live with their families again. Some of them do have that hope of going back to their home after 4 years. There's no DO programs in Canada, and there's far fewer MD schools> I really for them, when they really just want to go home.
I absolutely agree with you here, @Domperidone. Very good points that OP should consider. In fact, if OP definitely wants to return to Canada (and does not want to stay in Australia or try to go to the States or anywhere else), my thinking is OP should seriously consider trying to do medical school in Canada.

By the way, I'm (ethnically) mostly Irish and I bloody hate the poms, so I know what you mean! :) (Just kidding, I have good friends who are English).
 
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Thanks so much for the info everyone!!! really appreciate it, Many things to consider here and valid points brought up- I'll have to contact the schools to see if I can get some info on their Canadian intake and the partnered institutions-!!!
 
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