Granting medical students PA degree as well

[jedimaster]

Hi! I have an idea to help with the shortage of healthcare providers. What if all medical school graduates who do not match with a residency can be granted physician assistant degrees. These people would have to complete 4 years of medical school and pass parts 1 and 2 of their board exams. They will have more clinical and classroom time than PA so they should be able to function in that capacity. If they got their medical degree from outside the U.S. maybe they could be required to complete at least one year of training in the U.S. such as an internship year. For international medical schools that complete their clinicals in the U.S. that should satisfy that requirement. What do you think?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Dwindlin]

 

[Forthegood]

 

[Paseo Del Norte]

So, I spend something like eight years of my life learning how to be a physician and preparing for a residency only to accept a consolation prize as a physician assistant?

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

So, I spend something like eight years of my life learning how to be a physician and preparing for a residency only to accept a consolation prize as a physician assistant?

The problem seems to be that midlevels think that they're equivalent to graduating med students. This became more apparent with the recent PA thread....

 

[sideways]

mind=blown

 

[bradt9881]

The problem seems to be that midlevels think that they're equivalent to graduating med students. This became more apparent with the recent PA thread....

Beware of equating general comments such as yours that imply "all" when your survey population was n=2 PA students.....

 

[altap]

IMHO, granting a midlevel degree to those who do not match is a good idea as this would in a way help answer the current shortage of physicians (particularly in primary care). But requiring an internship to foreign born FMGs would be counter productive, bec. no foreign born FMG would stop at just 1 yr of residency. One year of training separate from that of residency would be another option (just bec. foreign born FMGs don't have US clinical experience).

 

[jedimaster]

To Paseo del Norte: I never said that you have to give up being a doctor and work as a physician assistant. I respect you for all of your hard work and hope you succeed in whatever specialty you desire. I am just saying wouldn't it be nice to have that option available to you? Say you want to do an emergency medicine residency but you don't match. All of your hard work is useless at that moment. You are always free to re-apply the following year for the match. During that year or however long it took it would be great if you could work as a PA in an emergency room. That way you would gain valuable experience, be able to treat patients, and it would look great for your resume when you re-apply for a residency.

 

[jedimaster]

Some people may claim that midlevels are equal to physicians, but I think you will all agree that graduating medical students have the knowledge and training to perform midlevels jobs.

 

[Starpower]

Some people may claim that midlevels are equal to physicians, but I think you will all agree that graduating medical students have the knowledge and training to perform midlevels jobs.

Oddly enough, this isn't always the case. PA students often come with substantial health and patient care experience under their belts, compared with a med student who is still learning the ropes. Case in point was my last and final rotation. The med student there would see a patient and leave it for the Doc, whereupon I would go by, see the chart, see the patient and be done with it. The student would get pissed, but the Doc loved the efficiency (I got straight 5s on my evaluation). The med student could have probably done the majority of what I did, but honestly, he's still learning how to communicate and interact with patients, which is something I got a grip on years ago. Additionally, my PA program had us in the hospital doing H&Ps in our first week of school.

But anyhow, I'm interested in hearing what core0 and emedpa have to say.

 

[keregg228]

Yes, I think a year working as a “PA” if you didn’t match would be nice so you could make some money and get experience, but if you got sick of school/didn’t feel like residency how many future doc’s might just stay as “PA’s” because they can’t get the residency they want or they or their spouse gets pregnant. I think you would be more likely to lose people rather than gain anything.

Some Phd programs offer MS degrees after the first two years. I heard from one of my professors that most schools stopped doing this bc people would have job offers or get sick of school and quit after the MS. I don’t know how true this is but you don’t see a lot of Phd programs that offer MS’s after two years. I have heard sometimes you can still get them to switch you but you have to have a significant life event and still fulfill the MS requirements.

 

[drift]

Horrible Idea

All that aside, what right do us Physicians have to pawn our "lessers" to to another profession?

It would never happen. The AMA/AAMC wouldn't let it happen, neither would the AAPA/ARC-PA. We have high standards for being a Physician in the US for a reason. We shouldn't dictate the standard of PAs, thats their job, not ours. If an MD can't match in the first time, then try again.

 

[Starpower]

All that aside, what right do us Physicians have to pawn our "lessers" to to another profession?

While I understand you're being facetious, not finding a match is oftentimes (correct me if I'm wrong) due to numbers of available spots and not necessarily the caliber of the student.

It would never happen. The AMA/AAMC wouldn't let it happen, neither would the AAPA/ARC-PA. We have high standards for being a Physician in the US for a reason. We shouldn't dictate the standard of PAs, thats their job, not ours.

You are aware that the ARC-PA includes MD delegates, including representatives from the American Medical Association, American Academy of Family Physicians, and American College of Surgeons, among others?

 

[Denatured]

I think it could be a great idea, if certain conditions where met. While not all of those unable to match are of lesser caliber, let's face it, some of them are. A incompetent MD does not = good PA.

If they were given a test, either PANCE or a modified version of it, then I think it could work well. Heck, it would be nice even for those people that were tired and decided they didn't want to do a residency. Maybe that would keep people from leaving medicine altogether and going into consulting or whatever other job they could get.

 

[Socrates25]

Oddly enough, this isn't always the case. PA students often come with substantial health and patient care experience under their belts, compared with a med student who is still learning the ropes. Case in point was my last and final rotation. The med student there would see a patient and leave it for the Doc, whereupon I would go by, see the chart, see the patient and be done with it. The student would get pissed, but the Doc loved the efficiency (I got straight 5s on my evaluation). The med student could have probably done the majority of what I did, but honestly, he's still learning how to communicate and interact with patients, which is something I got a grip on years ago. Additionally, my PA program had us in the hospital doing H&Ps in our first week of school.

This whole BS about how all the pre-PAs have 20 years of experience as paramedics and nurses before going back to school might have had a kernel of truth to it 25 years ago, but its no longer the case.

But anyhow, I'm interested in hearing what core0 and emedpa have to say.

I can already tell you what misinformation they are going to lay out here. After years of claiming (on their own board) that PA school is equivalent to med school; they'll come on here and make up some BS about how PA school teaches you to be a "dependent" provider whereas med school teaches you to be "independent" therefore a graduating MD cant possibly fulfill the role of a PA because they werent trained properly.

They'll also lay out the same faulty assumptions that all PA grads have 10 years of healthcare experience whereas all MD grads are newbies.

Core0 likes to cite the Florida case, where a long time ago they let foreign MD grads who couldnt match take the PANCE and become PAs and most of them failed it. The PAs like to use that as evidence to block any attempt by MDs whatsoever to take PANCE -- their reasoning being that "since all those crappy foreign MDs failed the exam we should just put it off limits completely."

FYI -- There's absolutely zero reason that a graduating MD shouldnt be allowed to take PANCE, and if, passing, be licensed and work as a PA.

 

[Socrates25]

Case in point was my last and final rotation. The med student there would see a patient and leave it for the Doc, whereupon I would go by, see the chart, see the patient and be done with it. The student would get pissed, but the Doc loved the efficiency (I got straight 5s on my evaluation). The med student could have probably done the majority of what I did, but honestly, he's still learning how to communicate and interact with patients, which is something I got a grip on years ago. Additionally, my PA program had us in the hospital doing H&Ps in our first week of school.

As an upper level resident I have authority over both med students and PA students who rotate thru -- I make sure that the PA dudes dont come anywhere near our patients and that they spend the greater part of the day in the team room doing stupid logistical work like setting up f/u appts.

 

[drift]

As an upper level resident I have authority over both med students and PA students who rotate thru -- I make sure that the PA dudes dont come anywhere near our patients and that they spend the greater part of the day in the team room doing stupid logistical work like setting up f/u appts.

and your proud of that?

 

[Starpower]

As an upper level resident I have authority over both med students and PA students who rotate thru -- I make sure that the PA dudes dont come anywhere near our patients and that they spend the greater part of the day in the team room doing stupid logistical work like setting up f/u appts.

Interesting. To be fair, that was only one experience with that particular student and it was what it was. To be sure, I've worked with some great med students, some who ran circles around me. But not all of them. It really does depend on the student and the situation, for med and PA alike. Anyhow, the last preceptor I spoke of has been a MD for over 35 years, and you're quite far from that. He didn't need you to do his evaluating, but I'm sure he would thank you all the same (very polite chap). Truth be told, I suspect you have a small ... well, I'll just leave it at that

 

[Socrates25]

and your proud of that?

Proud? No.
Justified? Yes.

You are making a huge mistake if you think PAs are content to work under you. They're making huge pushes to have their name changed, to soften the supervision requirements, among other things. See my quote below to get a real feel for what they think of MDs.

I'm simply fighting fire with fire. I refuse to supervise or train PAs, period.

 

[Starpower]

I'm simply fighting fire with fire. I refuse to supervise or train PAs, period.

No offense, but I don't think anyone cares. You should go fight a more worthwhile cause in life, like gay marriage. Heaven knows that's the reason for all our troubles anyways, just look at what it did to the dinosaurs!

 

[drift]

Proud? No.
Justified? Yes.

You are making a huge mistake if you think PAs are content to work under you. They're making huge pushes to have their name changed, to soften the supervision requirements, among other things. See my quote below to get a real feel for what they think of MDs.

I'm simply fighting fire with fire. I refuse to supervise or train PAs, period.

Compare every AAPA statement put out and then contrast that with the AANA statements. Pull up the search bar and type "physician-PA team", you'll get the point. Their name change has nothing to do with their supervision requirements. I'm involved heavily in several PA accreditation/education systems and can tell you that PAs are accredited by us Physicians and they are regulated by us as well. They will never go independent like NPs. If you want more info PM me. Giving preferential treatment to PAs is the first step to "fighting fire with fire" with NPs.

As per your signature, it's VERY misleading. PAs have had residencies decades. But, they come out of residency and remain a better educated PA. You are implying that PAs want to go to a residency and come out an MD. It's VERY misleading to be put the way u did.

EMED said that PAs should be able to attend MD residencies for a year, and come out a better trained PA, with no additional rights other then having more knowledge. A residency trained PA and a non-residency PA have the SAME scope of practice and regulations. The residency trained one is just more specialized and educated. Several MD residencies take PAs, but only for a year. They basically function at a level similar to an intern and then thats it.

 

[Socrates25]

Compare every AAPA statement put out and then contrast that with the AANA statements. Pull up the search bar and type "physician-PA team", you'll get the point. Their name change has nothing to do with their supervision requirements. I'm involved heavily in several PA accreditation/education systems and can tell you that PAs are accredited by us Physicians and they are regulated by us as well. They will never go independent like NPs. If you want more info PM me. Giving preferential treatment to PAs is the first step to "fighting fire with fire" with NPs.

As per your signature, it's VERY misleading. PAs have had residencies decades. But, they come out of residency and remain a better educated PA. You are implying that PAs want to go to a residency and come out an MD. It's VERY misleading to be put the way u did.

EMED said that PAs should be able to attend MD residencies for a year, and come out a better trained PA, with no additional rights other then having more knowledge. A residency trained PA and a non-residency PA have the SAME scope of practice and regulations. The residency trained one is just more specialized and educated. Several MD residencies take PAs, but only for a year. They basically function at a level similar to an intern and then thats it.

You are so naive its quite charming, really. If you're asking me whether PAs are as bad as the NPs are, then of course they are not.

But only fools pretend they pose no threat at all. They're just a few years behind the NP policy agenda, thats all. But make no mistake -- we are at the top of the totem pole and EVERYBODY WHO IS NOT AN MD WANTS A PIECE OF US, and that includes PAs.

As for the context of what emedpa wrote, I'll let him own up to it himself. But if you've spent any time at all on this forum and PAforums.net, its quite obvious that he's got a huge chip on his shoulder. He goes on weekly rants about how he's smarter than every MD in his ER unit and that he does everything solo in the dept with absolutely zero oversight and that he's cracked open 50 chests and pushed all the MDs out of the way to do difficult intubations that they couldnt get.

Emed is a PA and he's angry that he doesnt get to have the MD title, independence, or respect that comes with being a physician. Its eating away at him and you can tell that by the fact that he literally seethes with anger that state law requires him to be "supervised" by a physician.

 

[Makati2008]

Why did a Pod start this thread??? They have nothing to do with th MD/DO-PA/NP relationships. They cannot even supervise us and most probably couldn't afford to....so it would probably be better if they were not included in this discussion. It would be the equal of me going to the ortho thread and stirring the pot there.... and btw guys-Pod school does not equal Medical School.....

I agree with Starpower for once. It seems like some of the M.D./D.O. members are attacking the PA's due to their egos. Also P.A.'s are dependent on the Physicians for us to practice. I think a very very very small minority would disagree with that statement.

And to the Physician that refuses to supervise P.A.'s-Most of us could care less! For the one that won't supervise there are tons of them that want good P.A.'s.

If you guys would have been after the real threats to your profession-CRNA/NP's- then you would be a lot better off right now....

Makati PA-C OMS-1
Sorry for typos and misspellings studying for finals and took a quite break.

 

[altap]

IMHO, "cuddling" the PAs could have a huge ramifications in the future of medicine in this country. As they increase in number, their political power/clout also increases.

 

[drift]

You are so naive its quite charming, really. If you're asking me whether PAs are as bad as the NPs are, then of course they are not.

But only fools pretend they pose no threat at all. They're just a few years behind the NP policy agenda, thats all. But make no mistake -- we are at the top of the totem pole and EVERYBODY WHO IS NOT AN MD WANTS A PIECE OF US, and that includes PAs.

As for the context of what emedpa wrote, I'll let him own up to it himself. But if you've spent any time at all on this forum and PAforums.net, its quite obvious that he's got a huge chip on his shoulder. He goes on weekly rants about how he's smarter than every MD in his ER unit and that he does everything solo in the dept with absolutely zero oversight and that he's cracked open 50 chests and pushed all the MDs out of the way to do difficult intubations that they couldnt get.

Emed is a PA and he's angry that he doesnt get to have the MD title, independence, or respect that comes with being a physician. Its eating away at him and you can tell that by the fact that he literally seethes with anger that state law requires him to be "supervised" by a physician.

A. Regardless of whether or not he has a chip on his shoulder, you ARE taking his quotes out of context, which isn't something I would expect from an "upper level resident."

B. Maybe he has done that? According to you there shouldn't be any good PAs? They should all suck? Maybe yours do cuz you dont teach them, but most are great. FYI, several rural clinics can't attract MDs 24/7. So, they may use a PA with a supervising MD. You're saying simply cuz theyre PAs, they should suck, and he claims not to suck, so hes lying.

C. I could care less if anyone's profession is "eating away" from anyone. I haven't seen any claim from emedpa that he wants to be an indepedent practitioner like you falsely imply.

D. NPs and PAs are NOT the same. Dude, we created PAs. We (at the political, academic, clinical level) can dictate alot of what they can do. An NP, we can't do quack. I would say with a certain level of certainty that we need midlevels, our healthcare system has adapted to be dependent on them. We just need to make sure that less of this dependency is put on towards NPs. We have ZERO control over them, contrary to PAs. A name change won't do crap. Remember PA programs/profession is licensed/accredited by like 4 or 5 organizations. Only 1 of them is a PA organization. The rest are all MD/DO organizations. You think 1-2 people on an online forum dictate PA practice/mentality?!

Normally I wouldn't bother, but the fact that you are failing to supervise PA students, who are gonna graduate and one day dictate whether someone lives or dies. Morally speaking, you would be responsible for that. Sad.

 

[altap]

IMHO, it would be foolhardy for anyone to think that PAs don't want to practice independently. Couple this with the volatility of politics and you have a ticking time bomb just waiting to explode.

 

[drift]

IMHO, "cuddling" the PAs could have a huge ramifications in the future of medicine in this country. As they increase in number, their political power/clout also increases.

werent you the one who wanted to "join" them by allowing IMGs who couldnt place into residencies to become PAs?!

IMHO, it would be foolhardy for anyone to think that PAs don't want to practice independently

I'm sure some PAs want to practice independently. But they cant, and as an overseeing organization, we can make sure of this, at several levels. They are not a treat to us whatsoever.

 

[ARAI]

Hi! I have an idea to help with the shortage of healthcare providers. What if all medical school graduates who do not match with a residency can be granted physician assistant degrees. These people would have to complete 4 years of medical school and pass parts 1 and 2 of their board exams. They will have more clinical and classroom time than PA so they should be able to function in that capacity. If they got their medical degree from outside the U.S. maybe they could be required to complete at least one year of training in the U.S. such as an internship year. For international medical schools that complete their clinicals in the U.S. that should satisfy that requirement. What do you think?

The PA profession once opened it's doors to MDs who weren't competitive enough to match with residency programs. Unfortunately, the results were deleterious. Now the PA profession is closed to anyone who did not go through PA school. MD/DO students who aren't competitive enough to earn a residency may not be quite ready to practice medicine, even as a mid-level practitioner. Study harder, retake the USMLE, do better, and better luck next year.

 

[bradt9881]

As an upper level resident I have authority over both med students and PA students who rotate thru -- I make sure that the PA dudes dont come anywhere near our patients and that they spend the greater part of the day in the team room doing stupid logistical work like setting up f/u appts.

It's a sad excuse of a senior resident that is not willing to teach anyone on the health care team to include PA students (who are not there to be your appointment clerks, btw). Thank god all the senior residents I rotated with had a better understanding of their responsibilities than you do.....

 

[Denatured]

I assume Socrates25 has name himself such after the quote "I am wiser than that man because I know what I do not know." he should remember this one

"Whom do I call educated? First, those who manage well the circumstances they encounter day by day. Next, those who are decent and honorable in their intercourse with all men, bearing easily and good naturedly what is offensive in others and being as agreeable and reasonable to their associates as is humanly possible to be... those who hold their pleasures always under control and are not ultimately overcome by their misfortunes... those who are not spoiled by their successes, who do not desert their true selves but hold their ground steadfastly as wise and sober-minded men."
Socrates

 

[ARAI]

Proud? No.
Justified? Yes.

You are making a huge mistake if you think PAs are content to work under you. They're making huge pushes to have their name changed, to soften the supervision requirements, among other things. See my quote below to get a real feel for what they think of MDs.

I'm simply fighting fire with fire. I refuse to supervise or train PAs, period.

I would be very content to work under a MD/DO. Not you, mind you. People who fight fire with fire seem to think two wrongs make a right. Also, I sincerely doubt you have much pull over the PAs rotating through your clinic. No supervising who is earning CMEs and other benefits from a university for teaching a PA should let a resident interfere with a PA's education. And no PA student would return to a rotation site that was not letting him/her see patients.

As for the name change, why do you care? Some PAs want a name change, but not all do. It's not a major concern for most PAs and it should not be a major concern for physicians. But since you bring up the subject of a name...

phy-si-cian: 1: a person skilled in the art of healing; specifically : one educated, clinically experienced, and licensed to practice medicine...

Hmmm... maybe it's just me. But it seems like Webster's definition of "physician" could be applied to anyone educated, skilled, clinically experienced and licensed to practice medicine. Interestingly enough, PAs fall into that category. Don't worry, but PAs aren't about to start calling themselves physicians. But it's certainly an interesting thought.

 

[jedimaster]

Thank you to everyone who posted relevant comments so far!

To Makati2008 it does not matter why a podiatry student started this thread. I can come up with ideas like everyone else. You are the experts on this topic so that is why I posted it here, and so far I have learned some interesting things. If you don't think podiatry school is hard come spend a day in one of my classes. I get the same exact lectures MD students get from the same teachers.

I think that everyone who can make it through medical school and pass the USMLE deserves to treat patients somehow.

To Socrates. If you don't think PA should be treating patients then you should help teach them and make them better. Don't ignore them. We are all on the same side. We want to help our patients get better as quickly as we can.

 

[ARAI]

I think that everyone who can make it through medical school and pass the USMLE deserves to treat patients somehow.

There's always something available to these people as they prepare to retake and do better on the USMLE. They can work as Techs, CNAs, Aides, etc. These can be very humbling jobs at times, but they are very important jobs, nevertheless.

 

[Forthegood]

I get the same exact lectures MD students get from the same teachers.

No, you don't. Maybe first year, at least, maybe some classes and some lectures. This is like dentists saying that. It's just not true.

And the MD not matching thing... I don't think the solution is to make them PAs. I think that will not help them match the next year any better. You don't get a residency because of "clinical experience". It's not like getting into med school.

 

[jedimaster]

To ARAI Yes those are important jobs but a PA is closer to the skill levels of a graduating medical student.

To Forthegood Actually yes in my first two years other than a few podiatry specific classes the rest of my basic science classes are the same lectures as medical students at my school get. The lectures say the medical school's name on it and our teachers told us it is the same lectures. Since they are the people who teach both classes what they say matters. Exposure to a certain field does help get a residency. It is not the only thing. If you have someone who just finished medical school applying who did maybe 4 weeks of an emergency medical rotation compared to someone who spent a year working as a PA in an emergency room I would want the person with more experience in my program.

 

[PharmBound2011]

Horrible Idea

All that aside, what right do us Physicians have to pawn our "lessers" to to another profession?

It would never happen. The AMA/AAMC wouldn't let it happen, neither would the AAPA/ARC-PA. We have high standards for being a Physician in the US for a reason. We shouldn't dictate the standard of PAs, thats their job, not ours. If an MD can't match in the first time, then try again.

Kind of agree. Don't think it would ever happen.

 

[altap]

To drift: All I was saying is that foreign born FMGs, who passed the mles (but could not match) and who are either citizens or legal residents of this country should be able to challenge the PANCE and become midlevels if they pass the exam. The US is in dire need of healthcare workers primarily in primary care, and so why not utilize the education and skills of these individuals. It is a win win situation: They help alleviate the shortage of healthcare workers in this country and in turn, the America gives them a decent job.

 

[altap]

As I have been saying in this forum all along, all teaching hospitals should offer externship or observership (paid or not) to foreign born FMGs, this way attendings can compare the clinical acumen, work ethics and medical knowledge of PAs, NPs, US med students, US born FMGs and foreign born FMGs.

 

[Makati2008]

Jedi-
1.)No offense Pod school is not for me...
2.)An idea is something original. This thing has been beaten over and over and over and I have only been on sdn for two years.
3.)Let me ask-Are you wanting to jump ship from your profession and your only a student? Is this why you formed this "ideal"? If so if you truly think your pod education is comparable to a MD/DO level just try to transfer to another school!(I bet it will be pretty hard if not impossible to do. Never heard of a Pod transferring to a medical school to be granted an MD/DO degree)

Not trying to be a jerk but becoming a P.A. is no cakewalk, and I am willing to bet that most Pods would fail the PANCE(as they would Step I/II). I do think in extreme circumstances a MD/DO should be allowed to challenge the PANCE but not unless a PA was allowed to challenge the USMLE/COMLEX. Pods IMHO should not be allowed this chance just like I think Chiros shouldn't.

 

[Socrates25]

It's a sad excuse of a senior resident that is not willing to teach anyone on the health care team to include PA students (who are not there to be your appointment clerks, btw). Thank god all the senior residents I rotated with had a better understanding of their responsibilities than you do.....

No, whats a sad excuse is somebody who CHOSE the PA profession when they knew there was supervision involved and now they want to change the rules after the fact and pretend that they are just as good as MDs and dont need supervision any longer. Dont try to con a con-man and dont piss on my back and tell me its raining. I know what both the PA and NP agendas are.

 

[jedimaster]

Makati2008 That is alright. You are doing what you want to do. I want to be a podiatrist so I am in pod school. I do not want to change professions. I am very happy with my choice. Whether I am a podiatry student or an English major I can still have an opinion and post something. The basic science years of podiatry school and MD/DO schools are similar. The clinical years are not. My clinicals prepare me for my future job and your clinicals prepare me for your future job. I am not saying that this plan relates to pods at all. Please stay on topic. I don't think PA school is easy.

 

[Forthegood]

Like I said, some classes, especially in the first year are very similar. Year two is not nearly as similar. Year 3 and 4 are not even close.

Again, you hear the same thing from first years in every category. You will not be singing the same tune next year.

 

[deleted6669]

as noted elsewhere some states have experimented with letting fmg's work as pa's. universally they do a poor job of it and get far more complaints and medical board actions than traditionally trained pa's.
in florida for example these fmg pa's make up less than 5% of the pa workforce yet have > 20% of the adverse board actions against them.

pa school and medschool are not the same. ms1's do much more indepth basic medical sciences than pa students. the pa didactic yr includes SOME parts of ms1 and ms2 while the pa2 yr is very similar to the ms3 yr, in fact at many schools pa2 and ms3 's are scheduled interchangeably. as a pa2 I did everything the ms3's did on the same services. they treated us EXACTLY the same in all regards. this is why the lecom bridge program has pa's repeat ALL of ms1 and ms2 then grants a full yr of clinical rotation transfer credit. The lecom 1st yr includes a summer block of rotations to review primary care(while most medstudents are off the first summer). I think we will see that these pa to do folks do very well in their medical training, get great board scores and go on to do very well in residency.

 

[ARAI]

No, whats a sad excuse is somebody who CHOSE the PA profession when they knew there was supervision involved and now they want to change the rules after the fact and pretend that they are just as good as MDs and dont need supervision any longer. Dont try to con a con-man and dont piss on my back and tell me its raining. I know what both the PA and NP agendas are.

Before I went into medicine, I once worked with a European man who was paranoid that every single person at the office was out to steal his job. To this day, he was the most unpleasant person I've ever had the misfortune of working with. There's no easy way to say this, but you remind me of that man. You seem to be more concerned with job security than helping people. Did you really go into medicine so that you could heal people; or are you here for other reasons?

Rest assured, PAs are not going to unite and fight for independent practice rights. PAs come into the hospital with immediate respect for the MD/DO title. But a physician who shows anger and bitterness will very easily lose the respect of a PA, Nurse, Patient and just about everyone else.

I do think in extreme circumstances a MD/DO should be allowed to challenge the PANCE but not unless a PA was allowed to challenge the USMLE/COMLEX.

Of course if PAs who want to be MDs challenge the USMLE/COMLEX, there will be no use for a bridge program. PAs who challenge and pass the USMLE will just need to go back and do the 4th year of an MD school, maybe a research project, then move directly into residency.

For the time being, it would probably be best if MDs stuck to USMLE-Residency and PAs stuck to PANCE-midlevel practice.

 

[jedimaster]

Hi! It is interesting hearing how some states allowed something similar in the past for fmg. When did that stop? Why do you think they have so many problems in Florida for example?

 

[altap]

To emedpa: These FMGs in Florida that you like to cite who are doing a poor job as PAs did not pass the USMLEs. As I have said in my previous post, foreign born FMGs are heterogenous (some are good, some are great others are bad just like there are bad PAs, good and great PAs) Just because a handful of FMGs in Florida (who do not have the USMLEs under their belt) underperform means that all FMGs are incompetent. Sorry but your argument does not hold water.

 

[drift]

To emedpa: These FMGs in Florida that you like to cite who are doing a poor job as PAs did not pass the USMLEs. As I have said in my previous post, foreign born FMGs are heterogenous (some are good, some are great others are bad just like there are bad PAs, good and great PAs) Just because a handful of FMGs in Florida (who do not have the USMLEs under their belt) underperform means that all FMGs are incompetent. Sorry but your argument does not hold water.

If these FMGs are ECFMG certified, passed steps 1 & 2 and competent practitioners, then there should be a mechanism for them to become Physicians through our own system. If they are so qualified (not implying they're not; I'm confident they are) we should allow unpaid residencies for them to further on to become doctors (I think this could happen very soon). That would make much more sense then trying to work with another profession to try to take our un-matched candidates.

 

[altap]

To drift: This is an excellent idea. IMHO, most (if not all) FMGs who could not match would be amenable to this.

 

[deleted6669]

He goes on weekly rants about how he's smarter than every MD in his ER unit and that he does everything solo in the dept with absolutely zero oversight and that he's cracked open 50 chests and pushed all the MDs out of the way to do difficult intubations that they couldnt get.
Emed is a PA and he's angry that he doesnt get to have the MD title, independence, or respect that comes with being a physician. Its eating away at him and you can tell that by the fact that he literally seethes with anger that state law requires him to be "supervised" by a physician.

In my state I am actually legally "sponsored" not supervised by a physician....

as to the rest, citations please....you are full of crap. I never said any of this....yes, I work solo most of the time but never claimed to be smarter than an er doc. I have never claimed that I cracked a chest solo(have assisted). I have been OFFERED intubations that docs couldn't get and have offered docs intubations that I couldn't get.
the change back to physician assoociate(which WILL happen sooner or later) is about not being confused with medical assistants, not a move for independence. I beleive all advanced pravctice clinicians(pa's and np's ) should have physician oversight/collaboration.
if I ever want to work completely independently I will go back to medschool via the 3 yr pa to do bridge at lecom.