Goro’s advice for DO applicants in the absence of grade replacement

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Your state md with >506 MCAT yes. >510 you should be competitive for a few more MD programs!
Thanks,

I saw a video that told me how to get in the 99 percentile :)

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^ded

@AnatomyGrey12 and I have a love-hate relationship. Kind of like Insulin and Glucagon.

There was a reason for mentioning you anatomicalgreg because I was talking about you and I didn't want to be rude on this professional message board.

Thanks,

JayBeezFiveO

I don't care, stop mentioning me in threads.
 
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The post-bac grades.

My n's are small, but they are based upon reports from SDNers, and this the trend they have. It also holds very true for a good number of my own students....meaning, in a real life example, those SMP of ours who can maintain an 85% average grade in our program, with no instability in their performance (which means, no mix of Cs with thier As...they have to do well in all SMP coursework), get accepted into our med school (or others) and do well in the med school.

When you say 3.5+ for DO, do you mean my overall GPA should be sitting in that range or that is just the GPA that my DIY post-bac should be?

Also, what type of success does this method have? I know a lot of people mention post-bac around here, but I can't quite ascertain whether this is a long shot method.
 
Based on this, could we say that the LizzyM scores would be inaccurate for those completing a post-bac?

The post-bac grades.

My n's are small, but they are based upon reports from SDNers, and this the trend they have. It also holds very true for a good number of my own students....meaning, in a real life example, those SMP of ours who can maintain an 85% average grade in our program, with no instability in their performance (which means, no mix of Cs with thier As...they have to do well in all SMP coursework), get accepted into our med school (or others) and do well in the med school.
 
I would like to remind users that we offer the Ignore feature if someone is bothering you.

1 member has already been banned in this thread.

Lets keep the conversation professional from now on.
 
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Based on this, could we say that the LizzyM scores would be inaccurate for those completing a post-bac?

LizzyM scores are just rough estimates about where you stand compared to people who applied with similar stats. It's a decent tool for creating a rough draft of schools you might apply to. In reality though it's not an accurate way to predict whether or not you'll be accepted or whether your app will be looked upon favorably. Just handle your post bacc, crush the MCAT and apply broadly.
 
No, they don't apply. You could simply do a LizzyM based upon your post-bac stats, say, your last 1-2 years in UG school, assuming those last 1-2 years saw an upswing in your academic performance. But even then, don't treat this as a law from god. I've given what I think is a good rubric for assessing what med schools want to see from you in a post-bac or SMP.

Based on this, could we say that the LizzyM scores would be inaccurate for those completing a post-bac?
 
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Hey Goro,

If you exhaust the undergraduate coursework (I assume it's better to take a different upper level science classes) would it be acceptable to take graduate level classes?

How is other science GPA viewed compared to just pure biology GPA? Also for re-inventors like me, is it prudent to skip research work and pursue other activities such as volunteering or EMT?

Do you think the current screen (mostly 3.0 gpa) will stay as is for the foreseeable future for DO and state MD schools? Do you have any prediction what admissions for DO will look like in 2-3 years? (e.g. massive rise in GPA/MCAT)
 
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Yes, very much so.

If you exhaust the undergraduate coursework (I assume it's better to take a different upper level science classes) would it be acceptable to take graduate level classes?

Stuff like P-Chem or something intellectually rigorous will be fine. Astronomy is OK in my book. Once you get past undergrad, then the rules for having research change. First off, it's the top private med schools that value research. Your state schools are more likely to give you a pass.

Volunteering is always good. I don't recommend EMT; we view that as being a glorified bus driver. Be a paramedic instead, if that's your interest.

How is other science GPA viewed compared to just pure biology GPA? Also for re-inventors like me, is it prudent to skip research work and pursue other activities such as volunteering or EMT?

Yes.
Do you think the current screen (mostly 3.0 gpa) will stay as is for the foreseeable future for DO and state MD schools?

Nope.
Do you have any prediction what admissions for DO will look like in 2-3 years? (e.g. massive rise in GPA/MCAT)[/QUOTE]
 
EMTs are basically taxi drivers. I'm not making the news, just reporting it...from the viewpoint of Adcom members and former EMT people as well.


Wait what? Why? I'm in an EMT-B course right now and it doesn't seem like that at all.

EDIT: paramedics need upwards of 2 years of training
 
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Wait what? Why? I'm in an EMT-B course right now and it doesn't seem like that at all.

EDIT: paramedics need upwards of 2 years of training

Much of this is about region. Some areas of the country poorly utilize EMT-B's so their scope of practice is limited beyond functional capacity to do much more than transport (ex. Florida). This isn't true of all of the country, but an idea that is perpetuated anyway. The other scenario where this is true is running as an EMT-B on a paramedic service. Typically this happens for private ambulance companies in metropolitan areas. Because you can't provide the required level of care for that service's licensure, you would drive.


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EMTs are basically taxi drivers. I'm not making the news, just reporting it...from the viewpoint of Adcom members and former EMT people as well.

Just curious, how are CNAs viewed? Home health vs nursing home? I also worked worked as a patient care tech (glorified CNA) on med/surge and in the float pool for several years, which I have to assume carries much more experience weight, only thing we didn't do was give meds. Mostly curious.


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Just curious, how are CNAs viewed? Home health vs nursing home? I also worked worked as a patient care tech (glorified CNA) on med/surge and in the float pool for several years, which I have to assume carries much more experience weight, only thing we didn't do was give meds. Mostly curious.


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Not to answer for the all knowing goro, but I get the impression that if your position involves a lot of patient contact and the opportunity to learn through "osmosis" by being around physicians, nurses, then it is considered really meaningful.
 
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Not to answer for the all knowing goro, but I get the impression that if your position involves a lot of patient contact and the opportunity to learn through "osmosis" by being around physicians, nurses, then it is considered really meaningful.

So probably nursing home > home health, just because you're at least around RNs learning from them. Although, the responsibility of being on your own with home health is pretty cool. There's no yelling for help if something happens, it's all you.

Sorry to deviate from this thread... Was just curious.


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So probably nursing home > home health, just because you're at least around RNs learning from them. Although, the responsibility of being on your own with home health is pretty cool. There's no yelling for help if something happens, it's all you.

Sorry to deviate from this thread... Was just curious.


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If you go the CNA/PCT route go into a hospital.
 
Hi @Goro,

Just curious, how often do you see successful underdogs at your school in recent years? I would like to get a realistic perspective. I think it's safe to say you get subjected to lots of bias on internet threads. Also lot of the successful underdog threads (like theWUbear) are from several years ago where 30 MCAT was good enough to get you to most places. With the recent MCAT and GPA creep in DO schools (some schools nearly averaging 30's), I don't think high MCAT is enough to get the attention of adcoms even if you see a significant turnaround. Not to mention that with the replacement policy gone, I think most adcoms want to protect their matriculant gpa numbers. Is this a fair assessment?
 
Will it still be in 2-3 years?

Tough to say for all DO programs as some are seeing higher averages as you rightly pointed out. But for the newer programs, an MCAT like that will very probably still be enough to get you in in the next few years.

Banking on getting a high MCAT score is really, really risky though. Work on the rest of your app! Get DO LoRs, get clinical hours.
 
I personally have a high respect for CNAs. Don't tell the kids over in the Allo forum; it will send them into paroxysms of outrage.

Just curious, how are CNAs viewed? Home health vs nursing home? I also worked worked as a patient care tech (glorified CNA) on med/surge and in the float pool for several years, which I have to assume carries much more experience weight, only thing we didn't do was give meds. Mostly curious.

I'm at a DO school; all of my kids are underdogs!

Seriously, this is a good question. I would say that the majority of my students are not high GPA/high MCAT, they either have OK GPA and OK MCAT, or high GPA/OK MCAT, or lower GPA/OK MCAT. I don't want to give number specific numbers, but our students tend to have better stats because of the high number of CA students we have.

Just a ballpark guess, I'd say that at least 25-33% of my students have engaged in some form of GPA repair via a post-bac or SMP. I don't know how many used grade replacement, in addition to that.



Hi @Goro,
Just curious, how often do you see successful underdogs at your school in recent years? I would like to get a realistic perspective. I think it's safe to say you get subjected to lots of bias on internet threads. Also lot of the successful underdog threads (like theWUbear) are from several years ago where 30 MCAT was good enough to get you to most places. With the recent MCAT and GPA creep in DO schools (some schools nearly averaging 30's), I don't think high MCAT is enough to get the attention of adcoms even if you see a significant turnaround. Not to mention that with the replacement policy gone, I think most adcoms want to protect their matriculant gpa numbers. Is this a fair assessment?
 
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@Goro I'm sorry to bother you but may I ask a question regarding what I should do this upcoming semester? I'm a little confused as to what to do now with the grade replacement change.

I graduated from a university on quarter system, however was retaking/am taking courses at a semester system school currently because that is what is available to me at the moment. I received a C, C-, and an A in the 3 part series of physics as an undergrad (so 4 quarter units and 2.67 semester units each). I retook the first part of physics at the semester system school and got an A (4 SEMESTER units). Would this be enough to change my middle C- or would I have to take another semester of physics since most schools want a C or better for prereqs? I apologize for the confusing question! I called AACOMAS and no one really knew :(
 
Hey i posted a thread but didn't get any replies, but after this accomas decision my GPA has tanked and now i am unsure of what my future holds. My replacement GPA would have been around 3.3 Cgpa & 3.4 Sgpa, but now i am looking at 2.3 both Cgpa & Sgpa. I still have 3 more semesters remaining so about 50 credits give or take with my max gpa settling at 2.76 & 2.95 sgpa. I am currently studying for the MCAT's and will be taking them in May (or later if needed) and my practice tests fall in the 506-508 range.

--I assume a post-bacc or smp would be my best option but do i even have a shot at being accepted into one?

Also, LECOM's program is one I've been reading a lot about on these forums, i understand the app cycle opens in January 2018 (in my case) and i would love to apply as early as possible, however come January my spring grades would not be considered in my gpa and i need every point i can get.

--Would applying in May/June after my spring grades are in significant hurt my chances? Or should i take summer classes and a full credit load next fall to achieve the best gpa possible?
 
Hey i posted a thread but didn't get any replies, but after this accomas decision my GPA has tanked and now i am unsure of what my future holds. My replacement GPA would have been around 3.3 Cgpa & 3.4 Sgpa, but now i am looking at 2.3 both Cgpa & Sgpa. I still have 3 more semesters remaining so about 50 credits give or take with my max gpa settling at 2.76 & 2.95 sgpa. I am currently studying for the MCAT's and will be taking them in May (or later if needed) and my practice tests fall in the 506-508 range.

--I assume a post-bacc or smp would be my best option but do i even have a shot at being accepted into one?

Also, LECOM's program is one I've been reading a lot about on these forums, i understand the app cycle opens in January 2018 (in my case) and i would love to apply as early as possible, however come January my spring grades would not be considered in my gpa and i need every point i can get.

--Would applying in May/June after my spring grades are in significant hurt my chances? Or should i take summer classes and a full credit load next fall to achieve the best gpa possible?

Based on what little research I've don't on other SMP pages, it seems lime most schools have filled their seats by June, and all seem to strongly encourage early applications. Check out LECOM's SMP FAQ page, I'm betting they go into detail about this there.

You gotta decide what's best for you. If you can take a large credit load and do well then thats prob what you should shoot for.
 
It seems like it would suffice.

@Goro I'm sorry to bother you but may I ask a question regarding what I should do this upcoming semester? I'm a little confused as to what to do now with the grade replacement change.

I graduated from a university on quarter system, however was retaking/am taking courses at a semester system school currently because that is what is available to me at the moment. I received a C, C-, and an A in the 3 part series of physics as an undergrad (so 4 quarter units and 2.67 semester units each). I retook the first part of physics at the semester system school and got an A (4 SEMESTER units). Would this be enough to change my middle C- or would I have to take another semester of physics since most schools want a C or better for prereqs? I apologize for the confusing question! I called AACOMAS and no one really knew :(
 
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hey Goro would you mind giving me some advice on what steps to take going foward?

I was one of those affected by the new grade-replacement policy. I had a good freshman year but in the Summer following my freshman year my mom had a severe heart attack so she could not work anymore. So I had to step up and get a full time job to pay the the rent and bills and take care of younger siblings. At the time If I was not a full time student I would not have received financial aid and other state aid to help make ends meet in our household so I stuck with a full class load with a 50 hour job. But I could not manage working the 50 hour work weeks with a full school load and taking care of my household so my grades tanked. I did grade replacment and my gpa would have been a 3.267 cpga and sgpa 3.27 but now my cgpa is 2.87 and science is 2.93.
I have okay EC...time was always an issue so I did my best to volunteer here and there.
But in the past year and half I have taken a job at a Big Hospital as a Float Patient Care Tech.....I float to all levels of the hospital...ICUs, ED, Gen med surge, Step down, Post cardiac ICU, Post Joint/hip replacment floors..So I have great patient contact and will continue doing this job.

I know I should have taken a temporary leave from school or taken a lighter school load but I can't change things now. I am planning on taking the MCATs in March and hopefully will aim for a 508+.
Do you think it is worth applying this cycle even with a decent MCAT?
 
Instead of taking the time to replace grades, take a year or two of med school-like coursework and ace it. Stop worrying your cGPA and focus on your most recent 1-2 years of performance. That, with a good MCAT, is good enough for some MD schools, so DO schools will be even more receptive.
 
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my last year and half of school I had about a 3.3 cumulative gpa from 3 semesters. Do you think I should apply to SMP's this cycle? I know that I can manage to get good grades without working a full time job. My sister and brother are thankfully at the age where they both work now so after discussing with my family they are okay with me not working anymore if I get into a SMP. I know a 3.3 isn't impressive but if I wasn't working those 12 to 16 hours shifts I would haven been studying instead so I believe that I can do well in an SMP with all the extra time I will have....but is my gpa high enough you think to apply right now?
 
Hey @Goro,


For students who have/will have achieved 3.0 cumulative GPA but not science GPA (tibit below 3), would it be advisable to wait another cycle?
 
This hard to answer. I'm inclined to say it might be wrth a gamble IF your sGPA has been very high over the past 1-2 years.

Hey @Goro,


For students who have/will have achieved 3.0 cumulative GPA but not science GPA (tibit below 3), would it be advisable to wait another cycle?
 
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Do you guys think a higher MCAT can offset a lower GPA for DO schools? Considering their MCAT averages are on the lower end.
Possibly but nobody can really say without numbers. Will a 515 help a 3.0? Probably. Will it help a 2.5? Unlikely.

What are your stats?
 
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This hard to answer. I'm inclined to say it might be wrth a gamble IF your sGPA has been very high over the past 1-2 years.
not to be redundant, but this applies to me and was wondering which cycles are you both talking about (sorry, a little confused). thank you in advance
 
Roughly 3.19-3.2 sGPA and similar cGPA. Current MCAT is a 506 but I'm retaking in a few weeks hoping to bump it above 510.

With a broad app (20+ schools) you will probably get some interviews. Why do you want to retake a perfectly acceptable MCAT score?

Edit: you will probably be better served taking some upper level science courses and getting your GPAs above 3.3. A 3.3/506 is competitive for most schools
 
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I also want to keep doors open for MD programs

Those doors are already pretty much closed. You could get a 515 and still only have an extremely small chance. For MD you would need to ace the retake AND do an SMP just to have a chance.

For DO programs a 506 is plenty acceptable and won't be what keeps you out. You need to fix your GPA because that might keep you out.
 
Do you guys think 500 MCAT will still be adequate with low GPA (3.5+ post-bacc) for the new schools given the MCAT arms race?

I suspect even for these "likely" schools:

LECOM-Elmira
Clovis?
Incarnate word
Idaho
PCOM-Valdosta (I had to look up where this was and I lived in Georgia for 6 years)
2 supposed florida schools?

We're going to need need more than 500 to offset our underdog gpa.

It was only a few years ago where a 3.4 and 26 MCAT was competitive for top tier DO.
 
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Just curious, how are CNAs viewed? Home health vs nursing home? I also worked worked as a patient care tech (glorified CNA) on med/surge and in the float pool for several years, which I have to assume carries much more experience weight, only thing we didn't do was give meds. Mostly curious.


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CNA fantastic. Lots of patient contact. Make sure to be nice to your volunteers. :).
 
I suspect even for these "likely" schools:

LECOM-Elmira
Clovis?
Incarnate word
Idaho
PCOM-Valdosta (I had to look up where this was and I lived in Georgia for 6 years)
2 supposed florida schools?

We're going to need need more than 500 to offset our underdog gpa.

It was only a few years ago where a 3.4 and 26 MCAT was competitive for top tier DO.

There are going to be two new schools in Georgia. PCOM 2nd branch in Moultrie GA and a new school at Valdosta GA.
 
There are going to be two new schools in Georgia. PCOM 2nd branch in Moultrie GA and a new school at Valdosta GA.

Thanks. Didn't know there was a second campus. What's the timeline for those schools?

Doesn't it make sense to be GCOM instead of PCOM?
 
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PCOM at Moultrie GA is on track for 2018 and the school at Valdosta (non-profit...whatever that means), I don't know yet.
 
So from what I've gathered, a 3.0 is the minimum to still have a shot?

With grade replacement, I'm sitting at cGPA 3.4/sGPA 3.6/MCAT 505. 400+ hours clinical volunteering. 1500+ hours clinical work experience.

As of next year, I'll have cGPA 2.86/sGPA 3.6/MCAT 505, etc.

My post-bac is 60 hours of 4.0 which includes every medical school prerequisite. I had never taken any of the prereqs before. All of the grades that I replaced were random classes from undergrad that were at least 8 years ago at this point.

I believe that it would take another 30 hours or so of 4.0 to get my cGPA up to a 3.0. I've gone into a lot of debt retaking these classes, and I honestly don't think it's financially possible for me to return to school to take any more classes. This whole plan was based around my ability to get into medical school either this cycle or next, and the window seems to be closing for this cycle. Would it be totally pointless for me to apply next cycle with these stats?
 
So from what I've gathered, a 3.0 is the minimum to still have a shot?

With grade replacement, I'm sitting at cGPA 3.4/sGPA 3.6/MCAT 505. 400+ hours clinical volunteering. 1500+ hours clinical work experience.

As of next year, I'll have cGPA 2.86/sGPA 3.6/MCAT 505, etc.

My post-bac is 60 hours of 4.0 which includes every medical school prerequisite. I had never taken any of the prereqs before. All of the grades that I replaced were random classes from undergrad that were at least 8 years ago at this point.

I believe that it would take another 30 hours or so of 4.0 to get my cGPA up to a 3.0. I've gone into a lot of debt retaking these classes, and I honestly don't think it's financially possible for me to return to school to take any more classes. This whole plan was based around my ability to get into medical school either this cycle or next, and the window seems to be closing for this cycle. Would it be totally pointless for me to apply next cycle with these stats?

I been told that you want to at least be above a 3.0 as 2.xx is lethal for many schools (unless you have some serious pull). Some schools will be very explicit about the GPA requirement (e.g. KCUMB with 3.25 for both c and sgpa)
 
I been told that you want to at least be above a 3.0 as 2.xx is lethal for many schools (unless you have some serious pull). Some schools will be very explicit about the GPA requirement (e.g. KCUMB with 3.25 for both c and sgpa)

Yeah but the conundrum I see here is that they have a true 3.6 sGPA. Meaning that all their low grades were probably in classes of extremely little consequence. I wonder if schools will simply look past those and just focus on the sGPA and solid MCAT. I have no idea how adcoms will react, it is an interesting situation.
 
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Yeah but the conundrum I see here is that they have a true 3.6 sGPA. Meaning that all their low grades were probably in classes of extremely little consequence. I wonder if schools will simply look past those and just focus on the sGPA and solid MCAT. I have no idea how adcoms will react, it is an interesting situation.

Exactly. I don't mean to annoy people thinking I'm an exception to the rule, but I do feel like I have a strange application and that the past 7 years prove that I have the ability to handle the med school curriculum (obviously I know that I still need to prove that I'm a good fit for a program). I wouldn't even recognize myself from 8 years ago. I don't think anyone would.

I can no longer take out undergraduate student loans. I don't really have anyone to consult about where to go from here except this forum. My premed advisor seems to think you're competitive everywhere "if you score more than 500 on the new MCAT."

I messed up in the past, and I've owned it... but I've been as perfect as I can possibly be since I started this 2 years ago. I need to have a serious discussion with someone about where to go from here, because I just racked up tens of thousands of dollars of debt to do this. I feel like I'm right there and that if I applied early and broadly next cycle, I'd have done everything perfectly and according to plan, and I would have an excellent chance.

I need to know whether or not I need to keep pushing for this or move back in with my parents, get a job making 30k/yr, and start the decade-long process of paying off these loans that I took out for absolutely no reason.
 
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You should probably email the school about your situation. Certain schools that I emailed explicitly mentioned that any gpa under 3 will get screened. Best hope is to find schools that do not have such a hard screen.
 
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