GI Pathology

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path12345

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I am considering between doing a general surgical pathology fellowship and GI pathology fellowship. I really like GI pathology so that's one of the main reasons for wanting it. However, I get the feeling I may need more experience signing out general surg path cases, as I feel I may not be ready after fellowship (although I am not sure anyone feels ready). One of my mentors suggested that GI pathology wouldn't be a good idea because a) people with all around skills sets are more valued (i.e. general surg path), b) residency doesn't train you adequately for signing out (too much new stuff and residency going from 5 to 4 years) and c) GI pathology is easy compared to the rest of surg path (i.e. derm, heme etc..). While I see his point, I have talked to others who said they would value subspecialty training because it means you are specialized at something but still adequate in the other areas (two private practice owners themselves have told me this).

Your thoughts?

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I think a GI fellowship is a good idea. For some reason, in the last 15 yrs these new fellowships for basic path stuff have been initiated. But the marketing for dumb ass GI docs says you need a fellowship. You will still learn good stuff in the fellowship, but I would still recommend that you consolidate your basic path skills in a general practice for at least 5 or 10 years. I do nothing but in office GI path now, but I practiced in a general setting for 14 yrs. I love doing only GI path and I make more than I ever did. So you can do both. The fellowship and then a general practice job.
 
Need more information to give a good answer. First off, how far along are you in your training? I assume you're a 3rd year if you're considering fellowships at this point, possibly 2nd. In either case, you have time to continue to improve your general surg path skills. Next, how adequate would you say your training is at your program in giving you exposure to AP? The only reason I would recommend doing a surg path fellowship over something subspecialized is either A) You're going to a "top" program (MGH, Stanford, JHU, etc.) compared to where you trained, so it significantly boosts your CV. B) You trained at Western Kentucky State or some other podunk program and you had subpar training with low volume/limited exposure to bread & butter AP. C) It's you're "in" to another fellowship that you really want to do and the institution offers you a two year package e.g. surg path + "X". Otherwise, a competent resident who came from a good or even above average program shouldn't need an extra year to feel comfortable.

Your mentor is giving the typical answer I would expect to come from academia which I would dispute on a couple of levels.
people with all around skills sets are more valued (i.e. general surg path),
It depends on where you go. If you go to a large academic institution or satellite lab where all you do is sign out GI, then they could give a rat's ass about your ability to differentiate atypical spindle cell lesions of the parotid on a stat FNA. However, in most private groups or academia with subspecialty + general sign out, then being the GI "expert" would be advantageous. Having all around skill sets is not bringing anything new to the table that everybody else doesn't already have in this type of setting. You will be expected to have this to some extent, even as a new grad. That's why you did four years of AP/CP.

residency doesn't train you adequately for signing out (too much new stuff and residency going from 5 to 4 years)
Bullcrap. A competent resident coming from a solid program should have received adequate training for signing out general AP. Yes, you won't know everything and there will be a learning curve after residency with some mistakes made along the way, but the mentality in our field that no one is ever ready; ergo, keep doing continuing fellowships is overblown. Also, the theory of less exposure because residency went from 5 to 4 yrs is false. When Pathology was 5 yrs; Residency = 1 yr Internship + 4 yrs Path. Those people who did a 5 yr residency back in the day weren't getting extra exposure to AP. They were doing rectal exams and writing scripts for kids with runny noses...That's why the ABP dropped the requirement of the intern year.

GI pathology is easy compared to the rest of surg path (i.e. derm, heme etc..).
Many old timers do feel that a GI path fellowship is useless because it consists of a high volume of total cases in the typical practice and the scope of pathologic differentials for what is most frequently encountered is not as broad as some other organ systems, so I get that. Also, when they trained, there was no such thing as a GI fellowship. So they might be thinking, "Why would anyone need a GI fellowship to sign out a bunch of colon polyps?" But, times are a changin'. Now that the fellowship has been created and graduates are out there, there are more private pathology groups who seek to have a GI path trained person to have a go-to-guy for difficult cases because they do such a high volume of them, and/or to market that person to gastroenterology groups to gain their business. In addition, some gastroenterologists are jumping on the bandwagon and prefer GI path fellows looking at their bxs. Hence why the pp owners you talked with recommended a GI path fellowship.

Ultimately, both can be valuable in certain circumstances as outlined above. But again, it depends on what your future goals may be along with your interests.
 
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Thank you both for your replies. I would say my goals are likely to go into private practice and sign out all types of cases but maybe have a GI emphasis or at least expertise, since I like it. I would say I am at an average to slightly above average program and many of the previous graduates haven't had problems per se. Although, we recently switched to subspeciality sign out a few years ago and it's had a negative result on our AP RISE scores.

I guess the perception from some I am fighting against is that a subspeciality fellowship predisposes you to academics or some GI lab sweatshop, which isn't exactly the route I envisioned.
 
There are people making over 500K in those "sweatshops"
 
True. But at the volume you'll be reading in those places, you probably should be making $2M and not $500K.

as much as we like to complain about pathology being dog****, its not going to change a thing.

pathologists are cheap to hire, easy to find, and the standards to enter the field are very very low. this is a reality, and has been for the last 40 years. it will not change.

if you do end up going to a high standards ivy school youll be given instructor positions for sub 100k a year. thats what high achievement gets you in pathology.

going into pathology should probably only be entertained if you have no better options, like if youre a crappy IMG or have red flags on your transcript. there will always be a lot of these low quality applicants to fill every program in the country.

if you go into pathology its likely youll never be paid your fair share. i cannot see how it is fair that radiologists, who do similar work to us, earn double our incomes if not more, and have better job markets. the only way i can reconcile this is that our field has lowered its standards so much that the reality is we are worth far less than they are and we have to accept that.

maybe the emphasis in pathology isnt on physician practice but on academic research, and thats why we blow so hard as a field.

has anyone done an IM residency and GI after pathology so they could run one of these places? that seems like a better option in terms of both income, professional autonomy, and portability. itd be a few more years tacked on but, hey, we already do two fellowships in bull**** we'll never use anyway, might as well put those years towards something useful instead.
 
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Cologuard is going to reduce accessions big time. Especially with high deductible plans/health savings accounts taking over. It is a no brainer, demand for GI is going to plummet.
 
Not 2 million, but maybe 1.4. 60 to 65% goes to the house.
 
Not 2 million, but maybe 1.4. 60 to 65% goes to the house.

Doctor beware.
Does 65% professional fees go to the house?

I hope not for your sake.
Otherwise you and the GI group should make sure they like the look of orange scrubs.

Many times the systems of reimbursement solo specialty GI and GU labs are non compliant if they bill MC.
It is not pretty if you trigger the the mark up rule.
Even a subcontractor pathologist will be responsible to pay back MC.

Even a 30% cut for the clinics overhead is too high unless all the clinic docs pay 30%.
 
Doctor beware.
Does 65% professional fees go to the house?

I hope not for your sake.
Otherwise you and the GI group should make sure they like the look of orange scrubs.

Many times the systems of reimbursement solo specialty GI and GU labs are non compliant if they bill MC.
It is not pretty if you trigger the the mark up rule.
Even a subcontractor pathologist will be responsible to pay back MC.

Even a 30% cut for the clinics overhead is too high unless all the clinic docs pay 30%.

Do IOP practices have to justify what they pay the pathologist? I never heard that to be the case. They contract with a pathologist. If the pathologist is willing to take low pay and let the clinicians keep the rest, that's his/her fault for signing the contract. I never heard it had to do with proving overhead expenses or anything like that.
 
Cologuard is going to reduce accessions big time. Especially with high deductible plans/health savings accounts taking over. It is a no brainer, demand for GI is going to plummet.

I agree. There will be
Do IOP practices have to justify what they pay the pathologist? I never heard that to be the case. They contract with a pathologist. If the pathologist is willing to take low pay and let the clinicians keep the rest, that's his/her fault for signing the contract. I never heard it had to do with proving overhead expenses or anything like that.

You should understand the all applicable laws before you take a job with a clinic.

This includes the IOP loophole and other laws such as the Medicare anti-mark up statue.

Here is a example of a mark up violation :

GI practice is gets MC to pay 100 dollars
Contracting pathologist gets 50.00
10. is the actual practice cost for the professional service.

( Btw, this is mostly billing cost. Technical costs include space, scope, materials etc. These are not included in a PC charge.)

That leaves 40.00 to be divided among the GI practice docs.

Most of the time this would violate the statue.
MC does not see this as a way for them to make a killing at the tax payers expense.

Remember they just got paid 100.00 now they are essentially marking up the pathology work by 40% and pocking the rest.

Do other specialist in the group practice get paid like that? My guess is no.

The feds just have to decide they want to peak under covers.
So far they are not very active in this area.
My guess they will in due time.

The were more than a few docs paying fines or even serving time over 75-100K in toxicology payments.

Do think GI, GU or even derm is immune?
 
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More to the point they should making most of the money on the lab side.
They invested in that.
 
You don't get it AZ. Markup is not an issue because you are doing the work in their offices as a subcontractor or employee.
 
You don't get it AZ. Markup is not an issue because you are doing the work in their offices as a subcontractor or employee.

This was my understanding. It has nothing to do with markup or paying you according to any law. If you agreed to sign out biopsies for $1/case and contracted to do so, that would be perfectly legal as you are not billing for the case, they are. You're just subcontracting for whatever amount you agree to. That's why we're getting screwed. If there was a law mandating we got paid a certain proportion of the fee IOP labs probably wouldn't exist as much as they currently do.
 
You are correct the anti mark up statue won't apply if you properly embedded in the practice under POL acception.
It is fair market value that becomes a problem. Is the average lab, hospital, group is paying 50% per rvu on pathology. Or is this actually 2 SD from the mean?

That said, I don't think these are necessarily bad Jobs for Pathologists. It is high volume easy work. You just should know this could be come a issue.
If I was offered 50% MC for a lab. I would pass even if it seems like easy money.
 
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When I started in PP in 98, our lab worked very smoothly. Staffing was adequate and tech morale was ok. After several belt tightening budget cuts over the ensuing decade, the lab morphed into a MASH unit. Staffing terrible. Techs overworked and stressed. And many essentials not getting done in a timely fashion. Every day became a litany of fires to be put out and complaints from clinicians about decreased service. Worst of all, the hospital administrators who ignored my advice would complain to me about the consequences of their own actions. Unbelievable. Every time I went to a doctors office to do an FNA, a feeling of calm crept over me. Happy nurses, no one rushing etc. I couldn't deal with the hospital BS anymore. What I do now is peaceful and profitable. Nobody ever, and I mean EVER bothers me. I am busy with cases and I come home in a good mood (usually by 4 pm). I never screwed any hospital based people out of work. This work was all big box lab stuff anyway. So the negative remarks on this thread about BS like Cologuard or the legions of Feds who will look into practices such as mine (they wont) are all derived from jealousy. And you may have plenty to be jealous about. Although actually, insourcing really mostly hurts the big clin labs and you should appreciate the opportunity to have biopsy work spread out because of the options it could provide you with.
 
I am not saying it is a bad thing.
Just stay tuned into these issues.
No panacea working for a hospital system either. I would have no problem working for an clinic under the right circumstances.
 
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