Game over?

[Ngo3]

Based on what most of my colleagues are doing this summer (ie research) and how even fam med and psych start to become competitive, is it safe to say that for the DO students who are not doing anything this summer like research, their chance to get into something like general surgery (or anything competitive) is nonexistent? Given good boards, good clinical grades and lors but no research?

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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yes. You should immediately apply to the nearest Wendys. Don't even bother coming back to school. You're not even good enough for Mcdonalds.




Seriously though take your summer to chill.

 

[Mad Jack]

Based on what most of my colleagues are doing this summer (ie research) and how even fam med and psych start to become competitive, is it safe to say that for the DO students who are not doing anything this summer like research, their chance to get into something like general surgery (or anything competitive) is nonexistent? Given good boards, good clinical grades and lors but no research?

You may as well commit seppuku before you dishonor your family if you don't do 3,000 hours of research over the summer between MS1 and MS2.

 

[68PGunner]

Based on what most of my colleagues are doing this summer (ie research) and how even fam med and psych start to become competitive, is it safe to say that for the DO students who are not doing anything this summer like research, their chance to get into something like general surgery (or anything competitive) is nonexistent? Given good boards, good clinical grades and lors but no research?

So... the question then becomes what percentage of med students out there actually have good boards good clinical grades good preclinical grades and good lors. I would wager that if you have these four factors, you are already at the top quartile among medical students.

 

[Dr. Death]

Yes. You should immediately apply to the nearest Wendys. Don't even bother coming back to school. You're not even good enough for Mcdonalds.




Seriously though take your summer to chill.

Wendys > McDonalds
/thread

 

[Ngo3]

well damn, time to quit school

 

[Mad Jack]

So... the question then becomes what percentage of med students out there actually have good boards good clinical grades good preclinical grades and good lors. I would wager that if you have these four factors, you are already at the top quartile among medical students.

81.2% of DOs in the ACGME match, well, matched. 98% of DOs find a position. Zero of the people I knew in DO school did anything of note over their summer, because they weren't lame.

 

[Ngo3]

81.2% of DOs in the ACGME match, well, matched. 98% of DOs find a position. Zero of the people I knew in DO school did anything of note over their summer, because they weren't lame.

Well, everyone I know are going on mission trips, and doing research, or volunteering. Competition's getting intense

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Well, everyone I know are going on mission trips, and doing research, or volunteering. Competition's getting intense

Almost no one at my school did anything during our 1 month vacation in between oms1 and oms2. We have consecutively have the best match lists of DO schools.

 

[Mad Jack]

Well, everyone I know are going on mission trips, and doing research, or volunteering. Competition's getting intense

Uh... Your friends are all gunners. You should get new friends.

 

[Mad Jack]

Almost no one at my school did anything during our 1 month vacation in between oms1 and oms2.

Same. Only suckers or people with red flags bust their ass between MS1 and MS2. Well, that and people looking to go into derm or something I guess...

 

[IslandStyle808]

Almost no one at my school did anything during our 1 month vacation in between oms1 and oms2. We have consecutively have the best match lists of DO schools.

I don't think you could do anything besides vacation with that amount of time.

 

[Ngo3]

Nowadays, if you do not have any publications or receive SSP or whatever as a DO, you might as well not consider anything as competitive as general surgery, anesthesia, or radiology, let alone anything more competitive. That's what I gathered from everything I've searched up.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I don't think you could do anything besides vacation with that amount of time.

Hence why I didn't. If I had 2 or 3 months then I would consider doing a month of something. But I took my 5 weeks and I ran with them. I watched tv, went outside, I saw friends and family, and I relearned what it is to be a human being. If that cost me a better tier residency, I'm alright with that.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Nowadays, if you do not have any publications or receive SSP or whatever as a DO, you might as well not consider anything as competitive as general surgery, anesthesia, or radiology, let alone anything more competitive. That's what I gathered from everything I've searched up.

If you had a 230 USMLE and decent grades in clinical years, I'd wager you have a good shots at pretty much all those fields you mentioned without research. (And SSP? No ACGME PD knows squat about SSP...)

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

If you had a 230 USMLE and decent grades in clinical years, I'd wager you have a good shots at pretty much all those fields you mentioned without research. (And SSP? No ACGME PD knows squat about SSP...)

The only residency on that list that is competitive is GS. Of which an average DO with a low end 230 may struggle somewhat to get pending the status of AOA GS. Gas and Rads however are part of the many residency options very available to DO applicants.

Research among many things is important not for matching into a field ( Exception Surgical subspecialties), but rather in having more say in where you match, ex. community program v.s more academic program.

 

[Ngo3]

At this point, it's all speculation

 

[MADD!!!]

There's also another way you can look at it.... if FM and Psych are getting more competitive, doesn't that mean Gen Surg is becoming less competitive? :O

 

[IslandStyle808]

The only residency on that list that is competitive is GS. Of which an average DO with a low end 230 may struggle somewhat to get pending the status of AOA GS. Gas and Rads however are part of the many residency options very available to DO applicants.

Research among many things is important not for matching into a field ( Exception Surgical subspecialties), but rather in having more say in where you match, ex. community program v.s more academic program.

GS was the exception to that rule, but still within reach even with a 230.

 

[IslandStyle808]

At this point, it's all speculation

The SSP part isn't speculation. Never heard of one case where it was mentioned during an ACGME interview.

 

[YouWithTheHair]

Based on what most of my colleagues are doing this summer (ie research) and how even fam med and psych start to become competitive, is it safe to say that for the DO students who are not doing anything this summer like research, their chance to get into something like general surgery (or anything competitive) is nonexistent? Given good boards, good clinical grades and lors but no research?

Step 1: take a DEEP breath...
Step 2: enjoy your summer break...
Step 3: crush your STEP 1... even if you're in the 230s, there are decent ACGME programs that will accept you if you're not a goon.
Step 4: work hard to learn, impress your attendings on rotations(without being a cutthroat duche), and do relatively well on shelf exams 3rd year...
Step 5: crush STEP 2 and pass COMLEX PE the first time... as long as you're in the same range or better than STEP 1 you should be good.
Step 6: get an Honor for your Sub-I early on in 4th year, and get to know the program director well for a good LOR
Step 7: LORs, personal statement, ERAS application

Personal experience: DO student. I scored mid 240s for both STEPs, spent my first summer relaxing/recovering from elective labral repair(I work hard and play hard), usually around 85-88% on shelf exams, first and only research experience was an elective rotation during 3rd and 4th year that I presented a poster as first author at a national conference. I just matched IM at UCSF Fresno (#1 choice). I got interview invites from U of AZ Tucson, U of AZ Phoenix, UCLA harbor, UNLV, UNM, Mayo Clinic AZ, Loma Linda, and a few other community programs. Although not top tier, there's a few University programs there, and all in the west(notoriously less DO friendly). I never got asked once on the interview trail how I spent my summer between 1st and 2nd year. Neither did any of my colleagues who applied and matched in Gen Surg, EM, Anesthesia, Rads(seemingly less competitive these days), FM, Peds, Psych, IM. ALL ACGME RESIDENCIES!

Close friend: matched ACGME anesthesia in a great NY program with STEP 1 score around 215 and no research. Granted this wasn't ideal, and he had to make up for it in LORs/ECs.

Other friend: matched ACGME U of AZ Phoenix with average board scores and similar research as myself. Excellent clinical thinker. Worked hard to impress attendings.

Also I was originally set on gen surg, and research wasn't really a huge concern there unless you were looking into academics/big name programs, or subspecialty... they really seemed not to care either way in most cases. You could always check the Gen Surg forums if you're that set. Anesthesia, peds, FM, Psych, EM don't care too much about research either. IM depends on whether you want to specialize or go to a more well know university program. Whatever doom and gloom you may have heard, don't worry so much. Unless you're really set in UCSF, JH, Stanford, etc, or traditionally DO unfriendly University programs, take it easy. Spend that energy on studying and performing well on rotations, and you'll be fine.

If you feel you'd want the competitive edge, have the opportunity, and really want to do the research, then don't worry so much and just go for it. But don't accept the opportunity if you don't want it. Nobody likes to research with someone who's just there to check a box, and that attitude can hurt you if you're trying to get into an affiliated program.

 

[MADD!!!]

At this point, it's all speculation

If you're concerned and you have the opportunity, then just do it.

 

[ortnakas]

Well, everyone I know are going on mission trips, and doing research, or volunteering. Competition's getting intense

Those two sentences don't necessarily have anything to do with each other. They're doing things. Whether or not those things will have anything to do with their residency competitiveness is up for debate.

 

[jw3600]

The mentioning of SSP being any more relevant that what brand of cereal you eat should be a bannable offense.

 

[68PGunner]

Nowadays, if you do not have any publications or receive SSP or whatever as a DO, you might as well not consider anything as competitive as general surgery, anesthesia, or radiology, let alone anything more competitive. That's what I gathered from everything I've searched up.

My grades qualify me for SSP. However, I refused to pay for my membership to have that recognition badge. PDs can look at my grades and my class percentile to determine my worth.

As for mission trips for 3-4 weeks over the summer, it's nothing more than a glorified summer vacation.

 

[Yadster101]

Close friend: matched ACGME anesthesia in a great NY program with STEP 1 score around 215 and no research. Granted this wasn't ideal, and he had to make up for it in LORs/ECs.

Do you know what types of ECs he did to make up for it? I was under the impression that ECs weren't very important in med school.

 

[sunealoneal]

Based on what most of my colleagues are doing this summer (ie research) and how even fam med and psych start to become competitive, is it safe to say that for the DO students who are not doing anything this summer like research, their chance to get into something like general surgery (or anything competitive) is nonexistent? Given good boards, good clinical grades and lors but no research?

Let me put it this way... If you were interested in a field that "requires" research, you'd already have it set up. Most fields don't require any. Derm, surgical subspecialties, and rad onc do. Top 10 institutions for most fields typically do. I don't know about enough about radiology or EM to comment.

 

[Robotfishbrain]

At some point I have to think that the biggest hurdle you face as a DO is other DOs (more specifically DOs on the internet). OP you need to ask this question directly to PDs, GME admins, your school admin, etc. It has been posted over and over again on this forum but the interview and step scores are the top 2 variables PDs look at in regards to matriculating residents.

I can say from personal experience if I took SDN as truth and didn't personally correspond with hospital admins and PDs I would've needlessly dismissed DO as an option.

 

[Azete]

Based on our school's match list, it seems like the only DOs getting the shaft these days are the bottom 20% or so. The rest of our classes have been matching some pretty impressive programs and honestly the upper half (top 50%) is pretty comparable to some MD schools.

Which makes sense; if you're a bottom 20% student at a DO school, you probably haven't do enough in your academic career to deserve matching ortho or derm. It's not so much DO bias as it is their incompetencies as students holding them back.

 

[hallowmann]

Based on our school's match list, it seems like the only DOs getting the shaft these days are the bottom 20% or so. The rest of our classes have been matching some pretty impressive programs and honestly the upper half (top 50%) is pretty comparable to some MD schools.

Which makes sense; if you're a bottom 20% student at a DO school, you probably haven't do enough in your academic career to deserve matching ortho or derm. It's not so much DO bias as it is their incompetencies as students holding them back.

I somewhat agree that the majority of those that struggle are mainly the bottom 10-20%, but I know people in that group that did well because they were strategic in their apps and resources, and I know average people that struggled because of something stupid like a failed PE, overestimating their competitiveness, or trusting the words of PDs that told them not to worry.

You definitely need to get info on your own and in all honesty as a DO, you should be applying strategically. Sure if you want to aim for the sky, go for it, just make sure you pack a parachute or something to save you if you fail. Have a backup, have programs that aren't very competitive to cushion the blow. Hopefully you won't need them, but on the days leading up to the match, you'll be thankful they're there.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Step 1: take a DEEP breath...
Step 2: enjoy your summer break...
Step 3: crush your STEP 1... even if you're in the 230s, there are decent ACGME programs that will accept you if you're not a goon.
Step 4: work hard to learn, impress your attendings on rotations(without being a cutthroat duche), and do relatively well on shelf exams 3rd year...
Step 5: crush STEP 2 and pass COMLEX PE the first time... as long as you're in the same range or better than STEP 1 you should be good.
Step 6: get an Honor for your Sub-I early on in 4th year, and get to know the program director well for a good LOR
Step 7: LORs, personal statement, ERAS application

Personal experience: DO student. I scored mid 240s for both STEPs, spent my first summer relaxing/recovering from elective labral repair(I work hard and play hard), usually around 85-88% on shelf exams, first and only research experience was an elective rotation during 3rd and 4th year that I presented a poster as first author at a national conference. I just matched IM at UCSF Fresno (#1 choice). I got interview invites from U of AZ Tucson, U of AZ Phoenix, UCLA harbor, UNLV, UNM, Mayo Clinic AZ, Loma Linda, and a few other community programs. Although not top tier, there's a few University programs there, and all in the west(notoriously less DO friendly). I never got asked once on the interview trail how I spent my summer between 1st and 2nd year. Neither did any of my colleagues who applied and matched in Gen Surg, EM, Anesthesia, Rads(seemingly less competitive these days), FM, Peds, Psych, IM. ALL ACGME RESIDENCIES!

Close friend: matched ACGME anesthesia in a great NY program with STEP 1 score around 215 and no research. Granted this wasn't ideal, and he had to make up for it in LORs/ECs.

Other friend: matched ACGME U of AZ Phoenix with average board scores and similar research as myself. Excellent clinical thinker. Worked hard to impress attendings.

Also I was originally set on gen surg, and research wasn't really a huge concern there unless you were looking into academics/big name programs, or subspecialty... they really seemed not to care either way in most cases. You could always check the Gen Surg forums if you're that set. Anesthesia, peds, FM, Psych, EM don't care too much about research either. IM depends on whether you want to specialize or go to a more well know university program. Whatever doom and gloom you may have heard, don't worry so much. Unless you're really set in UCSF, JH, Stanford, etc, or traditionally DO unfriendly University programs, take it easy. Spend that energy on studying and performing well on rotations, and you'll be fine.

If you feel you'd want the competitive edge, have the opportunity, and really want to do the research, then don't worry so much and just go for it. But don't accept the opportunity if you don't want it. Nobody likes to research with someone who's just there to check a box, and that attitude can hurt you if you're trying to get into an affiliated program.

What would you say is a good step 1 for matching (former) ACGME General Surgery? What should the rest of your application look like?

 

[YouWithTheHair]

Do you know what types of ECs he did to make up for it? I was under the impression that ECs weren't very important in med school.

You raise a good point. I kind of lumped LORs and ECs together, which probably wasn't the fairest assumption. Quality LORs from PDs and other high ups were definitely vital in my friend's efforts, and they definitely mean more han ECs. ECs are neither here nor there to many PDs, as long as you did something you can talk about. Having something to talk about on the interview trail was really the only thing that came from my ECs. You can even use ECs from undergrad, as these brought up good conversation points in multiple interviews I had. I lived in El Salvador for 2 years before undergrad, and got asked about my experience on almost every interview.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[YouWithTheHair]

You definitely need to get info on your own and in all honesty as a DO, you should be applying strategically. Sure if you want to aim for the sky, go for it, just make sure you pack a parachute or something to save you if you fail. Have a backup, have programs that aren't very competitive to cushion the blow. Hopefully you won't need them, but on the days leading up to the match, you'll be thankful they're there.

THIS! You definitely need to research programs on your own and apply strategically. Be realistic about your level of competitiveness, and be willing to ask attendings involved in the match process for input if you're unsure.... or if your school advisor sucks.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[YouWithTheHair]

What would you say is a good step 1 for matching (former) ACGME General Surgery? What should the rest of your application look like?

It really depends on which program you're applying too. I've seen programs that are ok with 220+, and others that want 240+. FREIDA is a good source for looking up programs and seeing what scores they look for. You can also go to the program's website and see if they list a minimum requirement(only some do this). Really just worry about rocking Step 1 for now. I feel like the best strategy is to work and study like you are applying for Derm, and then sort it out after. I'm not saying this is what you're shooting for, but aiming for an average or midrange performance can only limit your choices. Worry about building your application strategy when you have more of an application(step 1, 3rd year clinical rotations, possible research, etc)

I would say besides Step 1, the most important thing is Honoring your surgery rotations, especially your Sub-I, and LORs. Depending on the program, research may play a part, but I felt like gen Surg cared a lot less than other surgical specialties.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[deleted831695]

So for what specialties nowadays is research a must-have for DO to match anywhere? I'm assuming it has to be research within the field too, not research of any form.

 

[Goro]

Gen Surg is hard to get into even for MD students.

My read from our wise resident and attending colleagues is that if you want the competitive specialties, you need to be a superstar. Let includes doing research.

Based on what most of my colleagues are doing this summer (ie research) and how even fam med and psych start to become competitive, is it safe to say that for the DO students who are not doing anything this summer like research, their chance to get into something like general surgery (or anything competitive) is nonexistent? Given good boards, good clinical grades and lors but no research?

This can be found in PD survey for 2016. It's 230+

What would you say is a good step 1 for matching (former) ACGME General Surgery?

 

[68PGunner]

So for what specialties nowadays is research a must-have for DO to match anywhere? I'm assuming it has to be research within the field too, not research of any form.

All specialties that make 500K or more a year.

 

[deleted831695]

All specialties that make 500K or more a year.

What about the ROAD?

 

[68PGunner]

What about the ROAD?

So Derm, Opthalmology, and Rad Onc def make the cut. Gas doesn't crack 500K a year.

 

[jw3600]

So Derm, Opthalmology, and Rad Onc def make the cut. Gas doesn't crack 500K a year.

On average gas probably makes more than optho.

 

[IslandStyle808]

So Derm, Opthalmology, and Rad Onc def make the cut. Gas doesn't crack 500K a year.

The R refers to the old school abbreviation for Radiology. Yep, they make 500K also. Get a pain fellowship for Anesthesia, you can go well beyond 500k.

 

[68PGunner]

The R refers to the old school abbreviation for Radiology. Yep, they make 500K also. Get a pain fellowship for Anesthesia, you can go well beyond 500k.

Dx Rad doesn't crack 500k even w a mammo fellowship and 60 hrs week.

Gas w pain will probably net you 400-450 K max.

 

[68PGunner]

On average gas probably makes more than optho.

That's bs. If you're willing to work 60 hrs, optho can net easily 500+K. If you just want a chill schedule w 40 hrs a week, Optho can net 300-380K depending on your efficiency.

 

[YouWithTheHair]

So Derm, Opthalmology, and Rad Onc def make the cut. Gas doesn't crack 500K a year.

On average gas probably makes more than optho.

The R refers to the old school abbreviation for Radiology. Yep, they make 500K also. Get a pain fellowship for Anesthesia, you can go well beyond 500k.

Dx Rad doesn't crack 500k even w a mammo fellowship and 60 hrs week.

Gas w pain will probably net you 400-450 K max.

That's bs. If you're willing to work 60 hrs, optho can net easily 500+K. If you just want a chill schedule w 40 hrs a week, Optho can net 300-380K depending on your efficiency.

We're kind of going off on a tangent here. There are plenty of other forums to speculate specialty compensation rates, not to mention medscape and AMA website estimates.

 

[jw3600]

We're kind of going off on a tangent here. There are plenty of other forums to speculate specialty compensation rates, not to mention medscape and AMA website estimates.

I mean this thread is pointless?

 

[deleted831695]

So Derm, Opthalmology, and Rad Onc def make the cut. Gas doesn't crack 500K a year.

Are these as difficult to match as ENT and the surgical specialties nowadays?

 

[68PGunner]

Are these as difficult to match as ENT and the surgical specialties nowadays?

Yes. As for the surgical specialties, it's only competitive if they crack 500K or more. General Surgery doesn't make that cut for example. Urology does make that cut.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Oh my god. Literally everything about this thread is awful now.

 

[68PGunner]

Oh my god. Literally everything about this thread is awful now.

This thread was awful and useless in the first place.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Dx Rad doesn't crack 500k even w a mammo fellowship and 60 hrs week.

Gas w pain will probably net you 400-450 K max.

Basing my info on old 2010 MGMA reports, you will definitely go over 500k with a pain fellowship even now. Would have to check on radiology's compensation, but there were definitely radiologist who netted 500k earlier this decade without fellowship.