Firefighter to MD hopeful

[ThinRedLine]

Hey all, long time lurker here. Finally decided it was probably time to ask some questions instead of just doing forum searches and scouting google. I have kind of a unique situation that doesn’t match any other posts I found. So apologies in advance for the long post. To very briefly summarize my background:

6 years Army combat medic (currently ‘part-time’ in the National Guard)
5 years full-time Firefighter/Paramedic

I’m also a licensed physical therapist assistant – got trained up from the military also. I work in PT a couple days a week during my days off from the Fire Department (extra income since we have 4 kids and wife doesn’t work). I really want to pursue medical school but there are some big challenges being a non-traditional student and my situation specifically. The main challenge right now is that I don’t have a bachelor’s degree – associate’s only. I also still need a lot of the science pre-requisites. The two routes to get to medical school that I’m looking at:

-Army PA School
Pros: Bachelor’s degree not required for admission, earn a master’s degree in 2 years, tuition-free, several science pre-reqs are the same for med school
Cons: 6 year commitment to the military, have to move to San Antonio for school and then a 2nd move to your clinical rotation site


-Bachelor’s degree through Northern Arizona University
Pros: No 6 year military commitment, able to complete the degree from Arizona without having to move multiple times
Cons: It will take 4 years as a half-time student (full-time isn’t possible for me with family and multiple jobs), not-tuition free, have to complete science pre-reqs separate from the degree


I know a lot of pre-med students on here got grilled pretty hard for considering PA school prior to med school if they ultimately wanted to become a Doctor – why waste the time and money was the common theme. I feel like my situation is a bit different since the PA program I’m considering is through the military and tuition free. I know that PA school won’t shorten med school for me, but I feel like the training and experience I would gain could only help in the long run right? Mainly, being able to earn a master’s in 2 years from an associate's degree sounds great. On the other hand, being able to complete my degree from my home state and not having to move my family around with a 6 year military contract also sounds great.

I’m not looking for a spoon fed answer or anything.. so hopefully it didn’t come across that way. Just trying to get some honest input and opinions on what possible route to take to get to medical school. Thanks!

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[Cawolf]

I feel like my situation is a bit different

Your situation isn't really that different as you would have a 6 year commitment (it isn't really free). Even for you, don't waste time doing PA school unless you want to be a PA, and not a doctor.

Another aspect to consider is you would still need a bachelors degree to apply to medical school. So after your 2 years of training and 6 year commitment you would need to do 1 - 2 more years of school to get a bachelors and apply to medical school.

I feel like the training and experience I would gain could only help in the long run right

It wouldn't. Having your current medical and military experience is already worlds beyond the point of diminishing returns. Any additional medical training will offer you no benefit (maybe just harm) in admissions.

I would vote that if you want to be a PA, do the military program and if you want to be a doctor, get your bachelors.

 

[Blanky]

The PA route sounds excellent if you would be happy becoming a PA. If you want to go to medical school then going PA is going to eat up your time and you will still be left doing prereqs and MCAT prep. I was also full time Firefighter for 3 years, working in an ED now for the exposure and they pay for most of my school. The time fly's just choose the end goal you want and work hard and you will succeed.

 

[Eccesignum]

You are right you'd run into some head-scratching if you spent six years pursuing PA school with no intention of practicing as a PA. That just makes no sense. The situation would be a bit different for someone who thought they wanted to be a PA, went to school, practiced for a while and then realized medical school was more in line with their goals. If you think you might actually be happy as a PA, I would say commit to PA and be prepared to work as one for at least a few years.

I'm a former RN who also had an associate's degree at the time I decided to shoot for medical school (I had some credits from many years prior but never graduated with that first bachelor's). It also took me four years to then get a bachelor's due to other time commitments. So I understand that that road looks long. But if you know right now that the goal is medical school and that nothing else will satisfy, that is what I would do. Especially as you're already a paramedic and building a skill set that will be valuable, even if it isn't medicine. Already having dealt up close and personal with a healthcare team and with sick people is a major plus.

Keep in mind that if you're worried about being in school full-time now, that concern will stay with you for medical school. Some people do manage to work but it'll be one day a week or so, max. You'll have some 'income' from financial aid but it'll be nothing like a salary you're used to. Medical school will also mostly likely demand you move at least twice -- once for school and again for residency (sure, some people get very lucky and get into both school and residency right up the street but don't count on it). Then yet again if you do a fellowship.

 

[njtrimed]

Hey all, long time lurker here. Finally decided it was probably time to ask some questions instead of just doing forum searches and scouting google. I have kind of a unique situation that doesn’t match any other posts I found. So apologies in advance for the long post. To very briefly summarize my background:

6 years Army combat medic (currently ‘part-time’ in the National Guard)
5 years full-time Firefighter/Paramedic

I’m also a licensed physical therapist assistant – got trained up from the military also. I work in PT a couple days a week during my days off from the Fire Department (extra income since we have 4 kids and wife doesn’t work). I really want to pursue medical school but there are some big challenges being a non-traditional student and my situation specifically. The main challenge right now is that I don’t have a bachelor’s degree – associate’s only. I also still need a lot of the science pre-requisites. The two routes to get to medical school that I’m looking at:

-Army PA School
Pros: Bachelor’s degree not required for admission, earn a master’s degree in 2 years, tuition-free, several science pre-reqs are the same for med school
Cons: 6 year commitment to the military, have to move to San Antonio for school and then a 2nd move to your clinical rotation site


-Bachelor’s degree through Northern Arizona University
Pros: No 6 year military commitment, able to complete the degree from Arizona without having to move multiple times
Cons: It will take 4 years as a half-time student (full-time isn’t possible for me with family and multiple jobs), not-tuition free, have to complete science pre-reqs separate from the degree


I know a lot of pre-med students on here got grilled pretty hard for considering PA school prior to med school if they ultimately wanted to become a Doctor – why waste the time and money was the common theme. I feel like my situation is a bit different since the PA program I’m considering is through the military and tuition free. I know that PA school won’t shorten med school for me, but I feel like the training and experience I would gain could only help in the long run right? Mainly, being able to earn a master’s in 2 years from an associate's degree sounds great. On the other hand, being able to complete my degree from my home state and not having to move my family around with a 6 year military contract also sounds great.

I’m not looking for a spoon fed answer or anything.. so hopefully it didn’t come across that way. Just trying to get some honest input and opinions on what possible route to take to get to medical school. Thanks!

Unless you want to be a PA, I wouldn't even consider that route. You can finish your bachelor's faster than you think- I started from scratch while working full-time and finished in 4 years. It's just a matter of creative scheduling! Since you already have an associate's degree, it will go really quickly. And while clinical experience is necessary to demonstrate an interest in medicine, more isn't necessarily better from an admissions point of view. And as Ecce pointed out, you may end up having to move your family at least once for either med school or residency (depending where you live and what you end up wanting to do), so why move them more than you absolutely have to?

 

[backside_attack]

-Bachelor’s degree through Northern Arizona University
Pros: No 6 year military commitment, able to complete the degree from Arizona without having to move multiple times
Cons: It will take 4 years as a half-time student (full-time isn’t possible for me with family and multiple jobs), not-tuition free, have to complete science pre-reqs separate from the degree

I don't understand why your pre-reqs are separate from your degree? Unless you mean you're transferring old credits so your "major" is in something unrelated to the pre-reqs. But, will you be finishing them within the same time frame or do you plan to complete your degree and then take pre-reqs post-bacc? Also, I am not an expert by any means, but why doesn't the GI bill help with the cost of the tuition? (I have almost no understanding of how that works, so mainly curious).

I still think that this is a better option than the AA --> PA route, especially because you still won't have earned a BA/BS and the grad credits won't count towards your 90 credit minimum to apply to med school.

 

[Blanky]

I am also wondering why the GI bill isn't mentioned and why the prereqs cannot count towards the bach.

 

[coppernickel]

First, thank you for your service.

Now, I am familiar with the PA program (a friend is there rn), and I second everyone else on this. If MD is it and your family is on board, then do the bachelor's degree. The PA/RN for more experience is just not a good route; also you have plenty of experience to show your commitment to medicine. I think you need to focus on shadowing (which sucks, because it's unpaid, but you will probably love it); it'll build that case that you want to be an MD, and not xyz. Just 2 cents from a nontrad current applicant!

If I were in your position and I really could use someone else paying for my tuition (which I am in, but hindsight is 20/20), I would consider the following options:
-working in a hospital network that pays for your school. The one I'm in is affiliated with my postbac, and they pay for 2 classes after 6 months of being an employee. Plus health insurance for the whole family will be cheaper if you're a hospital employee.
-Bachelor's to MD programs. I really don't know much about these other than they sound magical, and dang, if only. Not sure if you fit the bill for this one but in case you don't know: Penn State's Accelerated Premedical-Medical Program (B.S./M.D.) — Eberly College of Science
-older students Bachelor degree scholarships. They exist, and there are probably more out there for vets.

 

[ThinRedLine]

Thanks for the input everyone. My heart is definitely set on med school.. the PA route was simply - in my mind trying to plan - a temporary career to gain some valuable experience while also earning a master's since I don't even have a bachelor's yet. But it sounds like everyone is on the same page of that not being the best route to get to medical school.

I don't understand why your pre-reqs are separate from your degree?

The bachelor's I plan on doing is not a traditional science degree and does not have the required pre-reqs included in the degree. I considered going the science degree route, but there are 2 issues I had with it: 1) From many posts I read on SDN, many folks suggested doing a degree that you are truly interested in so that you will enjoy it - and in turn your grades won't suffer from doing a degree you're not truly that interested in. Then you can just worry about doing the specific science pre-reqs separately, and 2) Because of my schedule on the fire department, I can only do online school. We work 48 hours straight and our shifts fall on different days every week... basically making in-person school impossible. I wasn't able to find any reputable universities that offered bachelor of science degrees online... but if you know something I don't or have some insight with that, I'm all ears. Right now the degree I'm looking at is an online Paramedic bachelor's degree through NAU. Then doing the science pre-reqs through UNE online.

Also, I am not an expert by any means, but why doesn't the GI bill help with the cost of the tuition? (I have almost no understanding of how that works, so mainly curious).

No problem at all, good question. The main reason I'm not using it for my undergrad is because the post 9/11 Bill is only good for 36 months of school. I've already used 12 months of eligibility, so I only have 24 months remaining. It covers 100% tuition - no matter how high the cost - and will even pay a monthly stipend for housing and some of the cost for books/supplies, so I want to save my remaining 24 months for the high cost of medical school to cut my debt in half. Also, still being in the National Guard, I have tuition assistance (separate from GI Bill) I can use to cover some of the cost of my undergrad. It caps at $250 per credit hour and $4500 per calendar year (whichever comes first), but it will definitely help.

Another aspect to consider is you would still need a bachelors degree to apply to medical school. So after your 2 years of training and 6 year commitment you would need to do 1 - 2 more years of school to get a bachelors and apply to medical school.

Sorry, I should have been more specific with this. The Army PA program does end with a master's degree ultimately, but you also earn a bachelor's degree after your first year of school. They have an agreement with the University of Nebraska who awards a Bachelor's after year 1, then a master's after year 2 of the program.


Blanky and Coppernickel - you both mentioned that there are hospitals that will pay for school? Undergrad as well as medical school? I've honestly never heard of this, but that sounds awesome. Would definitely like to get some more info from you all about this if possible. I've actually worked for 2 hospitals previously (part-time)... at one I was a Monitor Tech and another I was a Medic in the ER (and actually got to do medic level stuff at this hospital). Honestly never heard about either hospitals having programs that paid for school, but maybe I wasn't asking the right questions or talking to the right people.

Also Blanky: are you still on with your fire dept and working part-time at the hospital, or did you leave to go full-time with the hospital? Mainly wondering if the hospital would pay for a part-time employee to attend school or if you think that applies to full-time employees only

 

[Blanky]

A fully online bachelors in Paramedic and all prereqs online sounds like a recipe for disaster. I left the department on good terms I just did not enjoy the level of knowledge/care practiced in the prehospital setting. The ER provides me with clinical patient contact (in addition to Fire/EMS i already have) but now I work with the ER doctors. Bachelors at brick and mortar have open electives which you can use to fill in most of your prereqs. I chose Neuroscience which encompasses the prereqs and I enjoy all of my courses.(senior)

 

[Eccesignum]

Blanky and Coppernickel - you both mentioned that there are hospitals that will pay for school? Undergrad as well as medical school? I've honestly never heard of this, but that sounds awesome. Would definitely like to get some more info from you all about this if possible. I've actually worked for 2 hospitals previously (part-time)... at one I was a Monitor Tech and another I was a Medic in the ER (and actually got to do medic level stuff at this hospital). Honestly never heard about either hospitals having programs that paid for school, but maybe I wasn't asking the right questions or talking to the right people.

Also Blanky: are you still on with your fire dept and working part-time at the hospital, or did you leave to go full-time with the hospital? Mainly wondering if the hospital would pay for a part-time employee to attend school or if you think that applies to full-time employees only

This is highly hospital policy-dependent. I'm not sure about Blanky's, obviously, but mine only gave tuition reimbursement to people doing schooling directly related to their current job. I received no assistance for my bachelor's since it wasn't a BSN. Same went for my county job (I was also an AEMT in my second gig), they would have paid for paramedic training but not my unrelated bachelor's.

But this is only one example, and other hospitals are probably as different as there are leaves on trees. It's something to look into before you take a job with one, if that's important to you.

 

[Blanky]

My pay took a huge hit when I moved to the hospital although I get to choose my own schedule and how many shifts I want to work. If you truly want it dedicate yourself to making it happen don't half commit. I'm not sure how this path will play out but ill finish Physics 2 and Biochem in the fall and get my MCAT before Junes cycle and we will see what the future holds.

 

[ThinRedLine]

This is highly hospital policy-dependent. I'm not sure about Blanky's, obviously, but mine only gave tuition reimbursement to people doing schooling directly related to their current job

Thanks for the insight. Did your hospital make this info readily and easily available? Or did you have to talk to HR/specific people to find out more about their policy on tuition reimbursement?

A fully online bachelors in Paramedic and all prereqs online sounds like a recipe for disaster.

You think so? It seems like a lot of members on SDN have used UNE online for their science pre-reqs and spoke highly of it - and many have said there is no indication on your transcripts that it was even online. But again, unless I was to leave the fire department - which isn't financially doable (at least right now) - online school is the only option for me. I'm hoping that I can get accepted to med school with an online degree, but hey, I could be wrong.. which is why I'm here getting feedback

 

[njtrimed]

Thanks for the insight. Did your hospital make this info readily and easily available? Or did you have to talk to HR/specific people to find out more about their policy on tuition reimbursement?

I've worked for more than one hospital, and have asked friends working for other hospitals all over NY/NJ when I was hoping for this option. It seems pretty much universal that they will only pay for courses directly related to advancing your career. For example, a nurse could pursue higher degrees in nursing (I had a supervisor who went for free from an associate's all the way to her doctorate this way), and a tech could pursue nursing school. But no hospital would pay for anything leading to PA or MD.

How did you do in classes leading to your degree? If you had a 4.0 or close to it, you may be able to get into a full scholarship at an honors program at a state university, or at least get merit scholarships and grants. I would also think your service would help tremendously with paying for undergraduate classes.

 

[Blanky]

What if you mentioned how a bachelors degree may allow advancment into a managerial role within the company. The can read your rational and view your course schedule and evaluate their options

 

[ThinRedLine]

How did you do in classes leading to your degree? If you had a 4.0 or close to it, you may be able to get into a full scholarship at an honors program at a state university, or at least get merit scholarships and grants. I would also think your service would help tremendously with paying for undergraduate classes.

I did pretty well. For my associate's degree I had a 3.7 GPA and all of my previous college coursework (EMT School, Paramedic School, Firefighting) I had a 3.8

 

[njtrimed]

No problem at all, good question. The main reason I'm not using it for my undergrad is because the post 9/11 Bill is only good for 36 months of school. I've already used 12 months of eligibility, so I only have 24 months remaining. It covers 100% tuition - no matter how high the cost - and will even pay a monthly stipend for housing and some of the cost for books/supplies, so I want to save my remaining 24 months for the high cost of medical school to cut my debt in half. Also, still being in the National Guard, I have tuition assistance (separate from GI Bill) I can use to cover some of the cost of my undergrad. It caps at $250 per credit hour and $4500 per calendar year (whichever comes first), but it will definitely help.

While graduating from school with the least debt possible is ideal, it sounds like you're so debt-averse that you're actually costing yourself money long-term. Consider the fact that the quicker you finish medical school, the sooner you start making a physician's salary. I can understand saving the 100% tuition for med school, but just take out loans for whatever the National Guard and scholarships/loans/etc. won't cover. It's worth it, and you'll be able to pay it off.

I did pretty well. For my associate's degree I had a 3.7 GPA and all of my previous college coursework (EMT School, Paramedic School, Firefighting) I had a 3.8

This should definitely help you get scholarships. I don't know where to look for scholarships these days, but I know Fastweb used to be recommended. Between your GPA, your service, and being a returning student with children, you should be able to get a bunch of different scholarships to cover more than you realize; search for scholarships that include all these different factors. There were other things that would have covered my tuition if I didn't already have a full ride, like the SMART grant. If you're a good student with a high GPA in a science field, and you're going to a state school, you probably won't need to pay tuition.

 

[njtrimed]

You think so? It seems like a lot of members on SDN have used UNE online for their science pre-reqs and spoke highly of it - and many have said there is no indication on your transcripts that it was even online. But again, unless I was to leave the fire department - which isn't financially doable (at least right now) - online school is the only option for me. I'm hoping that I can get accepted to med school with an online degree, but hey, I could be wrong.. which is why I'm here getting feedback

I missed the online thing. DON'T do an online degree. I think there are some DO schools that accept online classes, but I don't believe MD programs do, and I know more reputable DO schools (such as NYIT) do not accept them. Don't limit yourself this way. If you do this the right way, you may have your choice of medical schools, and even scholarship opportunities. If you're limited to a handful of DO schools, you may be moving your family to a rural area, paying a fortune, and really limiting your choices in the future. See what you can work out with the fire department so that you can go to college. When I returned to undergrad, I had to quit my full-time job. I ended up still working full-time, but that was through picking up shifts on a regular per-diem basis and several jobs at the university, including working in the chemistry stock room preparing labs, research fellowships, and working as a research coordinator, as well as tutoring. My schedule was obviously hectic, but no worse than med school, and I made it work! Med schools may make a handful of exceptions for a few online classes, but generally want you to have your degree from a university.

 

[backside_attack]

I missed the online thing. DON'T do an online degree. I think there are some DO schools that accept online classes, but I don't believe MD programs do, and I know more reputable DO schools (such as NYIT) do not accept them. Don't limit yourself this way. If you do this the right way, you may have your choice of medical schools, and even scholarship opportunities. If you're limited to a handful of DO schools, you may be moving your family to a rural area, paying a fortune, and really limiting your choices in the future. See what you can work out with the fire department so that you can go to college. When I returned to undergrad, I had to quit my full-time job. I ended up still working full-time, but that was through picking up shifts on a regular per-diem basis and several jobs at the university, including working in the chemistry stock room preparing labs, research fellowships, and working as a research coordinator, as well as tutoring. My schedule was obviously hectic, but no worse than med school, and I made it work! Med schools may make a handful of exceptions for a few online classes, but generally want you to have your degree from a university.

YES.

While the UNE transcripts might not say "online"... AdComs know everything. Also you really need to take hard sciences in person at the pace required in undergrad (UNE is largely self-paced which I think is problematic for ensuring you really grasped the material (don't speed through it) and also for making sure you can remotely keep up with the pace you'll need later in med school - which is 10x faster).

 

[Eccesignum]

See what you can work out with the fire department so that you can go to college. When I returned to undergrad, I had to quit my full-time job. I ended up still working full-time, but that was through picking up shifts on a regular per-diem basis and several jobs at the university, including working in the chemistry stock room preparing labs, research fellowships, and working as a research coordinator, as well as tutoring. My schedule was obviously hectic, but no worse than med school, and I made it work! Med schools may make a handful of exceptions for a few online classes, but generally want you to have your degree from a university.

Same, I went from full-time RN with part-time AEMT shifts to per diem at both jobs so that I had complete control over my shift scheduling. It added up to full-time salary in the end, even if it was a little more chaotic. Depending on the politics of your workplace, you might bring this up to your supervisor if you think they would support you. I was lucky in that both my nursing supervisor and EMS captain were more than supportive of my push for med school and helped me work out my shifts around my UG classes. Though I know some people aren't that fortunate.

 

[alpinism]

I'm a former career firefighter/medic now emergency medicine resident who ventures back into the pre-med forum sometimes.

Largely agree with the above advice but I'll add a couple extra points.

1. Don't go to physician assistant school if you want to work as a physician.

2. You can certainly do an online bachelor's while you work however you'll still have to spend a minimum of 2 years at a brick and mortar university to complete all the pre-reqs. While there are some medical schools that accept online pre-reqs most MD and DO schools require that they be completed at a brick and mortar university. You'd be severely limiting your chances for admission and choices for medical school if you decided to do everything online. A much better option would be to either do a full in person bachelors or do an online bachelors then a full in person pre-reqs program. Either way you'll have to eventually quit your job and focus on school although you could probably work part time as a physical therapy assistant or paid call firefighter for extra money. Unfortunately nowadays everyone is basically expected to take out loans for medical school.

 

[Eccesignum]

Thanks for the insight. Did your hospital make this info readily and easily available? Or did you have to talk to HR/specific people to find out more about their policy on tuition reimbursement?

It wasn't made incredibly obvious when I took the job. I learned about it when the hospital decided to start a push to bring all associate's degree RNs to at least BSN, so they started sending out emails about tuition reimbursement. I found out it didn't apply outside my job scope when I then called to ask if other schooling fell under the umbrella.

 

[ThinRedLine]

Thanks again for the replies everyone... a lot of good information that has been passed along. I truly didn't realize how much stigma there still was (at least with med schools) towards online schools. I will definitely have to figure out how to work traditional school in to my situation with working full-time and family.

You can certainly do an online bachelor's while you work however you'll still have to spend a minimum of 2 years at a brick and mortar university to complete all the pre-reqs. While there are some medical schools that accept online pre-reqs most MD and DO schools require that they be completed at a brick and mortar university. You'd be severely limiting your chances for admission and choices for medical school if you decided to do everything online. A much better option would be to either do a full in person bachelors or do an online bachelors then a full in person pre-reqs program. Either way you'll have to eventually quit your job and focus on school although you could probably work part time as a physical therapy assistant or paid call firefighter for extra money. Unfortunately nowadays everyone is basically expected to take out loans for medical school.

For sure, thanks for the input. That seems like the most realistic and viable option for me.. I think I will go that route. Also, the degree I want to pursue is from a respected and accredited state university in Arizona... hoping that carries some weight behind it even with it being online. Keeping fingers crossed that an online degree + traditional pre-reqs will set me up solid for med school.

 

[RhodeHouse]

I'd apply to IPAP. You'd get the combined bachelor's and Master's degree in two years and not only would it be free but you would be paid full time to do it. Not only that but it falls under USERRA so your FF job has to let you go, and have to let you return to that job if you choose. The six year commitment for you as NG is the standard one weekend a month couple weeks in the summer, if you wanted to go to medical school right after graduating as a PA you could do that, it wouldn't be seeing you back 6 years. You also have being a PA to fall back on if medical school doesn't work out. If you are planning on doing your 20 in the NG for your pension it also gives you 2 years worth of retirement points.

 

[Cawolf]

You also have being a PA to fall back on if medical school doesn't work out.

I think being a FF/paramedic and PT assistant is enough of a fallback that this is poor advice.