Finding out what programs will fire residents?

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Again, what you are telling us is that the issues you personally encountered involved multiple other residents who as you say had to fall in rank one way or another and those that didnt were singled out for subtle and a bit concerning to me, "amusing" retribution by staff. If anything, what you describe comes off as sorority-type recruitee management, which is hardly amusing at any professional level.

Have you ever considered that just maybe *you* were part of the issues at your place? If I had to guess, probably not.
I think that it would really be helpful to those of us who have been through this already (med school, residency, fellowship, attending-hood), understand how to help you if you could provide some background as to why you're so certain that everyone is out to get everyone a level or 3 below them on the training heirarchy.

What is it in your personal experience that suggests that you're going to get your career ruined by a malicious PD/attending/upper level resident/nurse?

I will take at face value that, as your profile states, you are an MD/PhD student in Rochester (there are 2 of them, both suck as cities go, but have not terrible med schools). What, specifically, have you encountered to this point in your medical career (which hasn't even started yet), that leads you to believe that everyone is out to get you?

The answer to the OP's question is, "every program will fire a resident that deserves it...but only after trying hard not to". And as with any job, there are people who deserve to be fired. Being a physician doesn't mean that you sit at the top of Mt. Olympus, responsible to no mortal.

A program that never loses, or lets go of, a resident, is a program that isn't doing it's due diligence and is probably close to ACGME probation.

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I think that it would really be helpful to those of us who have been through this already (med school, residency, fellowship, attending-hood), understand how to help you if you could provide some background as to why you're so certain that everyone is out to get everyone a level or 3 below them on the training heirarchy.

What is it in your personal experience that suggests that you're going to get your career ruined by a malicious PD/attending/upper level resident/nurse?

I will take at face value that, as your profile states, you are an MD/PhD student in Rochester (there are 2 of them, both suck as cities go, but have not terrible med schools). What, specifically, have you encountered to this point in your medical career (which hasn't even started yet), that leads you to believe that everyone is out to get you?

The answer to the OP's question is, "every program will fire a resident that deserves it...but only after trying hard not to". And as with any job, there are people who deserve to be fired. Being a physician doesn't mean that you sit at the top of Mt. Olympus, responsible to no mortal.

A program that never loses, or lets go of, a resident, is a program that isn't doing it's due diligence and is probably close to ACGME probation.

Thanks gutonc, I appreciate your post.

The thing is, if everyone were on here claiming that all of the medical students/residents were wrongfully accused/terminated, etc., I'd grow a bit skeptical of that slanted view as well and start to question things in the opposite direction.

However, the overhwelming, if not exclusive, persistently allowable opinion of threads is that students/residents are always approriately dealt with virtually all of the time and this seems to be assumed as a matter of course and never actually questioned. Thus, I grow a bit skeptical and want to look at things in the opposite direction, especially when we really only hear one side of stories.

Also concerning to me is that as soon as a member posts anything that suggets PD's/programs (i.e., the establishment) could have been in the wrong, we suddenly get 5-10 posts by established (longer term) members that aim to quickly undoe the post virtually always accompanied by a dizzying frenzy -- bordering on mindless -- of reflexive "cross-liking" of each others posts by those same members, over and over again; this seems a bit uneven to me, thats all.

I think we all understand, including myself, that a bad apple is a bad apple. But I guess I would ask that we keep in mind that it takes two to tango, and that in the perpetual david vs. goliath relationship that is healthcare education, david is the one that often has to bow out gracefully.

My opinion is nothing more than my opinion, just like everyone else's.
 
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However, the overhwelming, if not exclusive, opinion of threads is that students/residents are always approriately dealt with virtually all of the time and this seems to be assumed as a matter of course and never actually questioned.

Also concerning to me is that as soon as a member posts anything that suggets PD's/programs could have been in the wrong, we suddenly get 5-10 posts by established (longer term) members that aim to quickly undoe the post; this seems a bit uneven to me, thats all.

Another perspective you might consider:

If the overwhelming consensus of those who have been around awhile (both IRL and on this forum), been through the training process themselves, and witnessed respresentative situations of resident terminations IRL (not just through posts on a forum) is that resident terminations are rare, preceded by attempts to find another option, a result of poor insight/behavior/progress on the part of the resident then...

the consesus represents reality. You can question the consensus all you like, but it is based on experience. We have nothing else to offer but that on a forum and it is what others come here looking to access. I don't understand why you assume we're all protecting a perceived faulty system or are "part of the problem" but it seems we have no way to convince you otherwise. What you believe can't be disproven to you by anything we say here, so what is it exactly you are looking for?

Not all opinions are created equal. Opinions based in experience have more merit than opinions based on only suspicion and supposition.
 
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!
 
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Another thing to consider is if the program is truly out for the resident for no reason, there is likely nothing the resident can do. On the other hand, if the program is not out to get the resident for no reason the advice commonly given regarding introspection and working hard is what may allow the resident to keep their training spot.

Why not give the advice that matches personal experience and could possibly help people continue training?

My experience is also that it takes a lot for a resident to get fired. Managing to have "car trouble"and missing a day of work every single time one resident went to visit his parents a few hours away was not enough. But our class sizes got all different from people changing specialties (in and out, not always exactly on cycle) and taking extended maternity leave and moving to be closer to their wife and kids.

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Well said @PTPoeny. Likely the minority of situations where a program has it out for a particular resident for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with being a doctor, but still a functional reality. Though unsavory, still a topic that should be included into the mix for completeness sake.
 
Well said @PTPoeny. Likely the minority of situations where a program has it out for a particular resident for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with being a doctor, but still a functional reality. Though unsavory, still a topic that should be included into the mix for completeness sake.
Are you gunning for an IR spot or Sean Spicer's job? Hard to tell from this post.
 
Thanks gutonc, I appreciate your post.

The thing is, if everyone were on here claiming that all of the medical students/residents were wrongfully accused/terminated, etc., I'd grow a bit skeptical of that slanted view as well and start to question things in the opposite direction.

However, the overhwelming, if not exclusive, persistently allowable opinion of threads is that students/residents are always approriately dealt with virtually all of the time and this seems to be assumed as a matter of course and never actually questioned. Thus, I grow a bit skeptical and want to look at things in the opposite direction, especially when we really only hear one side of stories.

Also concerning to me is that as soon as a member posts anything that suggets PD's/programs (i.e., the establishment) could have been in the wrong, we suddenly get 5-10 posts by established (longer term) members that aim to quickly undoe the post virtually always accompanied by a dizzying frenzy -- bordering on mindless -- of reflexive "cross-liking" of each others posts by those same members, over and over again; this seems a bit uneven to me, thats all.

I think we all understand, including myself, that a bad apple is a bad apple. But I guess I would ask that we keep in mind that it takes two to tango, and that in the perpetual david vs. goliath relationship that is healthcare education, david is the one that often has to bow out gracefully.

My opinion is nothing more than my opinion, just like everyone else's.
You didn't actually answer my question(s) though.
 
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Well said @PTPoeny. Likely the minority of situations where a program has it out for a particular resident for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with being a doctor, but still a functional reality. Though unsavory, still a topic that should be included into the mix for completeness sake.
...? Did you miss the part where I was justifying that it makes sense to me that everyone tends to post similar advice telling the residents how to improve themselves even though the original poster claims whatever is going on is unjustified and somebody has it out for them? Isn't that what you have been arguing against from everyone else?

Did I change your mind? In which case you are welcome


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Another perspective you might consider:

If the overwhelming consensus of those who have been around awhile (both IRL and on this forum), been through the training process themselves, and witnessed respresentative situations of resident terminations IRL (not just through posts on a forum) is that resident terminations are rare, preceded by attempts to find another option, a result of poor insight/behavior/progress on the part of the resident then...

the consesus represents reality. You can question the consensus all you like, but it is based on experience. We have nothing else to offer but that on a forum and it is what others come here looking to access. I don't understand why you assume we're all protecting a perceived faulty system or are "part of the problem" but it seems we have no way to convince you otherwise. What you believe can't be disproven to you by anything we say here, so what is it exactly you are looking for?

Not all opinions are created equal. Opinions based in experience have more merit than opinions based on only suspicion and supposition.
Are you gunning for an IR spot or Sean Spicer's job? Hard to tell from this post.

I like procedures, but not sure if IR is for me yet.
 
...? Did you miss the part where I was justifying that it makes sense to me that everyone tends to post similar advice telling the residents how to improve themselves even though the original poster claims whatever is going on is unjustified and somebody has it out for them? Isn't that what you have been arguing against from everyone else?

Did I change your mind? In which case you are welcome


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Haha, thank you!

You did the remarkable and actually acknowledged the existence of the "other side." What a breathe of fresh air!

I am 100 percent full steam ahead with understanding a situation and tailoring our constructive input to be as helpful as possible, which as you say often times involves helping people improve via introspection, etc.
 
Haha, thank you!

You did the remarkable and actually acknowledged the existence of the "other side." What a breathe of fresh air!

I am 100 percent full steam ahead with understanding a situation and tailoring our constructive input to be as helpful as possible, which as you say often times involves helping people improve via introspection, etc.

I don't think you and I read the same post.
 
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IRL = in real life, not a reference to IR.

Yea sorry, I think I mis quoted both your and gutonc's posts.

I meant to answer gutonc's IR inquiry.

Otherwise, I agree with mostly everything you said lucid. Im not trying to prove anyone right or wrong; you all care about members as evidenced by the time and effort you put into the help you offer. I also dont mean to be frustrating, but apologize if I am.
 
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i'm now confused as to what you're after, Light
aAuBT9tWRw6BWzd3g1kO_Confused%20Ryan%20Office.gif

are you trying to point out something that we're ignorant of?
in the sense of -
tumblr_n5xuyc8ZhL1sndbsno1_500.gif

??
or have I missed something or read over something too quickly?
(It is past my particular re-caffeinating time anyway).

Or we're not being supportive enough?
Or is there a question in there?
tenor.gif

What otherside? I have no idea what I'm meant to acknowledge. lol. I didn't know there was supposed to be a 'you versus them' type of a situation. We all show up to work and work on the same team everyday.

even with bad apples..we generally don't throw anyone under the bus. but if it's putting staff and patient safety at risk, we have an obligation to raise a flag at some point. Then they are meant to get the added support they require to get through. (*they as in the bad seeds. in the hope they can adjust, so that peace, harmony & justice can be restored in the universe)

As for malignant programs - yea they do probably need introspection +++, but that's easier said than done.
Considering how supportive everyone's been in this particular thread..do you really think we're in that category? :S
(really hurt if that's you're thinking, I like to think of myself as a Hufflepuff..
tenor.gif
)
part of the purpose to interviews and electives is to get a feel of other places out and see if it's where you want to do residency. if that's the impression you get - it's a 'you vs me' or 'you vs them' type of a place, (*where people are singled out for unjust reasons or no reason at all), just avoid it like the plague. To re-hash:
It's actually very difficult to get fired from residency unless you abuse drugs or assault someone. It leaves the residents short as well which means more call for everyone - unpopular to say the least. You can always go to the resident face sheets on the internet and see if the numbers are roughly the same if you really want to go crazy.
...
On a different note, there are malignant programs out there - my medical school program in my field was one and the residents were miserable, it was readily apparent during the dinner and in just casual conversation with them. So I just ranked other programs higher and matched elsewhere - no one says you have to stay at your med school for residency.

Also - what was said in another thread -
The 95%+ of residents who get through without any issues whatsoever don't post long stories on SDN about it. We just get the few basketcases that stick out.
[In response to OP's]: Thanks everyone. I had a little panic moment again after seeing some SDN post about a resident not getting their contract renewed so I think I've just gotta avoid looking at stuff like that. I really appreciate hearing that I'm relatively normal in these fears though.

And, it's the internet and some responders in here will have strong responses, not to mention it's hard to convey tone. *Generally, most advice falls along what PT has said above - it's trying to get the affected resident to look harder or to look differently in order to help them keep their position
if the program is not out to get the resident for no reason the advice commonly given regarding introspection and working hard is what may allow the resident to keep their training spot.
... I was justifying that it makes sense to me that everyone tends to post similar advice telling the residents how to improve themselves even though the original poster claims whatever is going on is unjustified and somebody has it out for them
*there's also a difference between those posting wishing for advice for a forum of people on the outside of their programs (to see if they're looking at things the right way) and those posting to just hear what they want to hear :S

But if I'm off mark - spell it out for me?
i'm genuinely lost..
*Cause ..I thought we were all trying to communicate (or heading towards) what PT's clarified for you.

Are you worried about residency personally?
Or worried about the forum?
 
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I think we all understand, including myself, that a bad apple is a bad apple. But I guess I would ask that we keep in mind that it takes two to tango, and that in the perpetual david vs. goliath relationship that is healthcare education, david is the one that often has to bow out gracefully.
My opinion is nothing more than my opinion, just like everyone else's.

Hmmm..
The short answer to this is that we always keep it mind, or we do more than you might be inferring from what's being posted in this thread.

I could be wrong, but I think you misunderstand what some of us are saying, if you worried that we're not doing that.

So, I know that you can recognize a bad apple. And we've illustrated a few in the thread.
Humor me if you will in this particular discussion. We've defined what the bad apples can be - the ones that are 'dangerous or bordering on it' or have a tendency to bully others. I'll rephrase it that way.

to illustrate it further, it might be Doug Murphy from Scrubs, who is not competent for IM. Doug had a reputation for 'killing' patients as a joke in the show (Scrubs is satire). He eventually found his calling in pathology. And we got to enjoy more seasons of Scrubs with Doug in it. It can be like that, some residents are better suited to other fields, but still belong in medicine. On the job, we do introspection everyday, but in terms how we can get our "Dougs" through. the price that we sometimes pay as part of the "environment" is having to work overtime to try help our Dougs go home too. Or we may be taking the extra time to teach Doug to be more efficient etc. The risk we take is burnout, if the overtime is constant. The risk to burn out is increased medical errors. Not to mention, the longer Doug has patients he is responsible for, and the longer he's not improving, the greater the risk he is to himself and to his patients. So you have to balance that. Again, patients come first. It's not easy on anyone to see the "Dougs" go, particularly where everyone becomes emotionally invested in seeing the "Dougs" succeed. But there is a point where it will become unfair, not just to those around him, but patients. One day Doug could make a fatal error. in that the less supervision he has, the greater the chance that no one will have been there to save either of them - Doug or his patient.
117471.gif


The other type is the behavioral issues.
For example, bullying - as an extreme case. the *ideal working environment in any hospital under any circumstances, is zero tolerance for bullying. Yes, they deserve the opportunity to correct themselves. (*could be as simple as asking them to take a time out for an outburst, to get coffee/take a break if it was an intense day) But often they'll only have limited numbers of chances to do so - because there's only so much affected staff can take without it impacting on their own mental health. Again, I think everyone in the environment pauses to reflect. Because if that resident continues their behavior without check, they can become future senior residents, fellows or attendings. they're at risk of perpetuating that behavior, in that others will believe it's appropriate or acceptable as they progress into higher positions, and integrate into their repetoire. it's also at risk of poisoning the environment, where other staff will choose to quit over time because they cannot withstand that behavior and the establishment is allowing it to continue. no one wants to lose good staff, and everyone wants to attract and retain the best talent possible.

to break it down further, medical errors happen. we're human. whether it's done by doctors, nurses or other staff. it's impossible to not make mistakes, and could be affected by any number things on a particular day, like a higher than normal case load. if you work in a well supported environment, the proper response is allowing you to learn from mistakes without fear of reprisal - like getting yelled at or butchered. there definitely can be times and places for that response, occasionally, but if it's overblown and it's consistent, it's no longer safe for other learners and workers in the environment. For a satirical example, crazy hooch. Humiliating your coworkers, by putting them down or demeaning them, is also not appropriate. you can ask people to pause and reflect. that's why there's evaluations, but even before anyone gets to that point, there's often verbal feedback either by other staff or your superiors. depending on the situation.

it takes a lot for anyone to get to a point where they even blow a whistle.
most working in healthcare, from nurses to residents to attendings, they know how much went into training the resident and how hard the resident worked to get there. they know what the gap will be if they have to replace them. the investment is not small. So hence, it has to be really bad. It has to be unbearable for a lot of people, for not a short amount of time. 'Good' programs know what's at stake when they go to 'pull the trigger' so to speak. there's multiple times that those involved in the process stop and reflect. (*i.e. are they doing right by the resident, other staff and patients? etc.)

EDIT: point being that there's a lot that's factored in and considered, in addition to the welfare of the resident. thinking further than the resident, you have to consider their future patients, that's a large responsibility on a program and it's attendings. it's very easy to "think about things", by the way. which is also very different if you're implying that change come as a result. If the latter, it has to be in context. if it's one troubling resident, does the whole environment need to change, disregarding everyone else? what would justify changing an environment further to keep someone who could be as above - a) dangerous v.s. b) a bully and what would you suggest? a non-malignant program would not take the 'easy' way out as others have mentioned previously. but it still has to balance this with patient and staff safety.

It's up to you if you want to worry about the environment having the ability of introspection. If you pick the right environment, you shouldn't need to. i.e. you should feel like it's a safe environment to grow, one that will help you be a better doctor not one that is going to tear you down at your first mistake. (*because they will have the ability to know when it's time to gently let you know, guide into the right path or escalate it further if that's not working. they will have stopped to think, is this a pattern, or was it something else going on, etc.)

You have to be careful in pointing fingers too quickly too.
because you don't always know the situation is, particularly where posters haven't gone into details. Some of the posts are often just sharing of 'war stories', not explaining a particular situation. There's different targeted audiences. We all like to feel less alone, so stories get shared.

if you're constantly questioning everyone around you, therein comes the question of what's happened to you, what in your environment caused you to feel threatened or feel that residents are constantly at threat of being harmed.

If I'm jumping to conclusions here, stop me.
I'm just trying really hard to understand where you're at.

If you're in a bad place in real life..
I mean..there's a number of supportive attendings in here who want to help you
(and by that, I mean other people in this thread, who are qualified to do so :p)

EDIT: TL;DR - Residency is like a box of Scrubs (the tv show). You never know what you're gonna get, but you plan ahead. There maybe Doug Murphy flavors, or Crazy Hooch :boom:. Sometimes you get an Elliott, circa 1st season when she and Carla had a beef. Be none of them. Your good PDs will not be like Dr. Kelso. Sacred heart is not out to get you :diebanana:(I just wanted an excuse to use that emoticon). Water cooler talk is just that. Try not to confuse it with indifference.
 
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Hmmm..
The short answer to this is that we always keep it mind, or we do more than you might be inferring from what's being posted in this thread.

I could be wrong, but I think you misunderstand what some of us are saying, if you worried that we're not doing that.

So, I know that you can recognize a bad apple. And we've illustrated a few in the thread.
Humor me if you will in this particular discussion. We've defined what the bad apples can be - the ones that are 'dangerous or bordering on it' or have a tendency to bully others. I'll rephrase it that way.

to illustrate it further, it might be Doug Murphy from Scrubs, who is not competent for IM. Doug had a reputation for 'killing' patients as a joke in the show (Scrubs is satire). He eventually found his calling in pathology. And we got to enjoy more seasons of Scrubs with Doug in it. It can be like that, some residents are better suited to other fields, but still belong in medicine. On the job, we do introspection everyday, but in terms how we can get our "Dougs" through. the price that we sometimes pay as part of the "environment" is having to work overtime to try help our Dougs go home too. Or we may be taking the extra time to teach Doug to be more efficient etc. The risk we take is burnout, if the overtime is constant. The risk to burn out is increased medical errors. Not to mention, the longer Doug has patients he is responsible for, and the longer he's not improving, the greater the risk he is to himself and to his patients. So you have to balance that. Again, patients come first. It's not easy on anyone to see the "Dougs" go, particularly where everyone becomes emotionally invested in seeing the "Dougs" succeed. But there is a point where it will become unfair, not just to those around him, but patients. One day Doug could make a fatal error. in that the less supervision he has, the greater the chance that no one will have been there to save either of them - Doug or his patient.
117471.gif


The other type is the behavioral issues.
For example, bullying - as an extreme case. the *ideal working environment in any hospital under any circumstances, is zero tolerance for bullying. Yes, they deserve the opportunity to correct themselves. (*could be as simple as asking them to take a time out for an outburst, to get coffee/take a break if it was an intense day) But often they'll only have limited numbers of chances to do so - because there's only so much affected staff can take without it impacting on their own mental health. Again, I think everyone in the environment pauses to reflect. Because if that resident continues their behavior without check, they can become future senior residents, fellows or attendings. they're at risk of perpetuating that behavior, in that others will believe it's appropriate or acceptable as they progress into higher positions, and integrate into their repetoire. it's also at risk of poisoning the environment, where other staff will choose to quit over time because they cannot withstand that behavior and the establishment is allowing it to continue. no one wants to lose good staff, and everyone wants to attract and retain the best talent possible.

to break it down further, medical errors happen. we're human. whether it's done by doctors, nurses or other staff. it's impossible to not make mistakes, and could be affected by any number things on a particular day, like a higher than normal case load. if you work in a well supported environment, the proper response is allowing you to learn from mistakes without fear of reprisal - like getting yelled at or butchered. there definitely can be times and places for that response, occasionally, but if it's overblown and it's consistent, it's no longer safe for other learners and workers in the environment. For a satirical example, crazy hooch. Humiliating your coworkers, by putting them down or demeaning them, is also not appropriate. you can ask people to pause and reflect. that's why there's evaluations, but even before anyone gets to that point, there's often verbal feedback either by other staff or your superiors. depending on the situation.

it takes a lot for anyone to get to a point where they even blow a whistle.
most working in healthcare, from nurses to residents to attendings, they know how much went into training the resident and how hard the resident worked to get there. they know what the gap will be if they have to replace them. the investment is not small. So hence, it has to be really bad. It has to be unbearable for a lot of people, for not a short amount of time. 'Good' programs know what's at stake when they go to 'pull the trigger' so to speak. there's multiple times that those involved in the process stop and reflect. (*i.e. are they doing right by the resident, other staff and patients? etc.)

EDIT: point being that there's a lot that's factored in and considered, in addition to the welfare of the resident. thinking further than the resident, you have to consider their future patients, that's a large responsibility on a program and it's attendings. it's very easy to "think about things", by the way. which is also very different if you're implying that change come as a result. If the latter, it has to be in context. if it's one troubling resident, does the whole environment need to change, disregarding everyone else? what would justify changing an environment further to keep someone who could be as above - a) dangerous v.s. b) a bully and what would you suggest? a non-malignant program would not take the 'easy' way out as others have mentioned previously. but it still has to balance this with patient and staff safety.

It's up to you if you want to worry about the environment having the ability of introspection. If you pick the right environment, you shouldn't need to. i.e. you should feel like it's a safe environment to grow, one that will help you be a better doctor not one that is going to tear you down at your first mistake. (*because they will have the ability to know when it's time to gently let you know, guide into the right path or escalate it further if that's not working. they will have stopped to think, is this a pattern, or was it something else going on, etc.)

You have to be careful in pointing fingers too quickly too.
because you don't always know the situation is, particularly where posters haven't gone into details. Some of the posts are often just sharing of 'war stories', not explaining a particular situation. There's different targeted audiences. We all like to feel less alone, so stories get shared.

if you're constantly questioning everyone around you, therein comes the question of what's happened to you, what in your environment caused you to feel threatened or feel that residents are constantly at threat of being harmed.

If I'm jumping to conclusions here, stop me.
I'm just trying really hard to understand where you're at.

If you're in a bad place in real life..
I mean..there's a number of supportive attendings in here who want to help you
(and by that, I mean other people in this thread, who are qualified to do so :p)

This is some @Crayola227 level writing... Maybe you need some tl,dr summaries!
 
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Not sure I'm comfortable with sharing what specific field yet. I may as yet, some day, as I get more comfortable in these forums.
Still kinda paranoid about maintaining anonymity at least to a degree, particularly after reading some of the doxxing discussions over in the Lounge. You could probably guess what field I'm in regardless.
I'm a verified resident though *points at badge.

I worry about you though..
is this you?
Interview Impressions 2016-2017
Or another poster with formerly the same name?
If it was you, what happened to you? Everything turn out okay? It would explain the concern in some of your posts in other forums. Not that you have to answer, either way.

Take care!
 
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Not sure I'm comfortable with sharing what specific field yet. I may as yet, some day, as I get more comfortable in these forums.
Still kinda paranoid about maintaining anonymity at least to a degree, particularly after reading some of the doxxing discussions over in the Lounge. You could probably guess what field I'm in regardless.
I'm a verified resident though *points at badge.

I worry about you though..
is this you?
Interview Impressions 2016-2017
Or another poster with formerly the same name?
If it was you, what happened to you? Everything turn out okay? It would explain the concern in some of your posts in other forums. Not that you have to answer, either way.

Take care!

I can appreciate your wanting to maintain your privacy.

There's no reason to worry, though I appreciate your concern. Those were genuine impressions from interview trail, verified by the resident reactions as well as chiefs/fellows from those programs. Yes, that is from me.

And yes, those things do happen -- more than we like to admit -- you just gotta ask the right questions.
 
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I saw somewhere that psychiatry had the highest attrition rate in residency which was a little shocking to me. I wonder why this is the case?
 
It's actually very difficult to get fired from residency unless you abuse drugs or assault someone. It leaves the residents short as well which means more call for everyone - unpopular to say the least. You can always go to the resident face sheets on the internet and see if the numbers are roughly the same if you really want to go crazy.

You allude to PTSD and your nervousness about past performance frequently. Yes, a bad step 1 can be hard to overcome for competitive fields like EM but not impossible. No one cares what your grade on biochem was, trust me.

On a different note, there are malignant programs out there - my medical school program in my field was one and the residents were miserable, it was readily apparent during the dinner and in just casual conversation with them. So I just ranked other programs higher and matched elsewhere - no one says you have to stay at your med school for residency.

It's difficult, not impossible, to get fired from residency, but it's 90% dependent on the program. I've met some terrible doctors/ residents out there who basically had their hands held and made it through residency without any official blights. And I've met some great docs who were screwed over by their residencies and either forced to transfer/ resign due to political machinations within the department.

The best way to protect yourself is to not match into malignant programs. SDN has posts about which ones are malignant. On your interviews, you can also ask residents outright, something like "have there been any residents who left or were fired?"

Google "psychiatry resident suing for FMLA violations" and you'll see a real-world example of just one of the residents (there were more, in more than one department) that George Washington University (GWU) in DC fired.

If you don't want to get fired, keep your head down and agree to everything - even if it's a violation of duty hours or safety. You're more likely to get fired for talking back to superiors than for actually doing bad medicine. It's a sad but true fact.
 
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It's difficult, not impossible, to get fired from residency, but it's 90% dependent on the program. I've met some terrible doctors/ residents out there who basically had their hands held and made it through residency without any official blights. And I've met some great docs who were screwed over by their residencies and either forced to transfer/ resign due to political machinations within the department.

The best way to protect yourself is to not match into malignant programs. SDN has posts about which ones are malignant. On your interviews, you can also ask residents outright, something like "have there been any residents who left or were fired?"

Google "psychiatry resident suing for FMLA violations" and you'll see a real-world example of just one of the residents (there were more, in more than one department) that George Washington University (GWU) in DC fired.

If you don't want to get fired, keep your head down and agree to everything - even if it's a violation of duty hours or safety. You're more likely to get fired for talking back to superiors than for actually doing bad medicine. It's a sad but true fact.

Absolutely as plain and simple as that. God help you if you become a target - performance means nothing in healthcare training bc to get to that level you clearly have "what it takes" to succeed.

The psychiatry resident matter is especially heartbreaking, though. What type of soul-less people do that to another human being?
 
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I am concerned about the actions that my deans have made to get rid of med students. That paired with the resident attrition rate at my school is concerning for me. I almost suffer PTSD and don't want to find myself in this situation again. No one wants to get rid of me, but that is due to me keeping my mouth shut. Of course I have concerns that I may only match at my home program, which would be awful.

What does this even mean??
 
God help you if you become a target - performance means nothing in healthcare training bc to get to that level you clearly have "what it takes" to succeed.

I'm pretty sure everyone who has been in practice for any length of time has personal experiences with incompetent trainees/physicians who they would never refer their family member to. If anything, the medical education system is set up so that once you get past the bottleneck of medical school admissions, it is difficult to fail out. Attendings are loathe to speak honestly about their trainees (if asked for a letter of reference for a bad candidate, they will more often than not say "ask someone else," and the recipient institution will be none the wiser about any bad experiences with the applicant). It's why connections are so valuable the higher up you go, because you can ask directly by phone or face-to-face to get the real scoop on a candidate that would otherwise never be communicated. People are more honest with verbal, non-documented conversation than they ever will be with official documents of letters of reference.
 
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One of the worst things I can do as a PD is promote someone who is not ready for it -- it's "impossible" to demote people, and once people are in over their heads, it's hard to stop them from drowning
A great quote.

From what I can tell the two easiest ways to get fired or at least have your co-residents hate your guts:

1. Be lazy and/or sloppy (typically goes together)
2. Be stupid/incompetent


From what I can tell, number 1 seems to be a lot less tolerated than number 2. Which makes sense, because when you're lazy/sloppy, you put your co-residents in a bind. No one likes doing extra work because some snowflake tries to cut corners. Laziness usually hurts patients more than stupidity as well, because stupid/weak residents are more closely monitored.

Also, If you are clinically weak, there's a degree of lattitude given because it doesn't typically create more work for your immediate colleagues (actually it does, but usually not in profoundly obvious ways). And there's the whole thing about people being better at some things as opposed to others.


If I had to pick a number 3, I'd probably say arrogance. Included in this category would be doing things that your not supposed to/breaking rules and being rude to other staff. That being said, a couple nurses over the span of 3-4+ years saying you are rude or whatever isnt going to ruin your career, but consistently getting complained about by ancillary and nursing staff will definitely get you in trouble.

Another hilarious story I heard along these lines stemmed from a resident who was consistently rude to everyone over the phone for some reason. This gal would berate nurses, social workers, fellow residents, and even consulting fellows and had a short fuse. One funny story about her goes as follows (this story was told by one of the program directors at morning report):

Mean girl resident calls for GI consult late one weekend day for patient with lower GI bleed. She pages fellow on-call for GI and gets call back a moment later.

Fellow: Hello, this is GI returning--

Mean resident (interrupts): I need a consult on XYZ for GI bleed.

Fellow: ...I see. Can you tell me more about the patient?

Mean resident: Yeah, shes 61 years old and ****ting blood. Shes in room 12345.

Fellow: ...I see... and is she currently stable?

Mean resident: Yes for now.

Fellow: ...right, and tell me, what are the possible causes of hematochezia in a 61 year old woman?

Mean resident: Hemorrhoids.

Fellow: I see... anything else?

Mean resident: Stop asking me stupid questions and do your job

Fellow: (stunned silence for a moment).... Well, now. This is a teaching hospital, and that's not how it works.

Mean resident: Quit wasting my ****ing time. Are you going to see the patient or not?

Fellow: Actually, I dont think so, but one of the fellows might.

Mean resident: One of the fellows? Arent you a fellow?

Fellow: No, actually. This is Dr. Johnson (Chairman of the department of medicine and GI fellowship director)

Mean resident: (stunned) but.. I called the fellows pager...

"Fellow": And I have his pager, because he had a family emergency to attend to.

Mean resident: I... uh...

"Fellow": Oh don't worry. Someone will see your patient. And whether she or any other patient in this hospital remains 'your patient' after today will be something I decide after talking with your program director tonight. Have a great rest of the weekend, Dr. [uses resident's full legal name to show he knows exactly who hes talkng to]. (Click)
 
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