Fibro work up

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

jonnylingo

Junior Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
May 7, 2006
Messages
423
Reaction score
215
What labs are you drawing for total body pain/fibro work up?

On recent thread someone mentioned: ESR, Vit D, intracellular Mg, B12, folate, homocysteine, TSH, CBC, EBV, CMV, pregnenalone

I usually get CBC, CMP, ESR, CRP, Vit D, ANA screen, RF.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Turf. Not my circus, not my monkeys

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using SDN mobile
 
Agree with turf early..although rheum will say "well you have a positive Ana but don't quite fit the criteria for rheumatologic disease so I can put you on a biologic if you want..or you can go back to pain management.."
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
For me, the appropriate turf is back to the PCP for PT and/or pool tx, Cymbalta, Prestiq, and/or Lyrica

Maybe psych (depending on how damages they are)

This all assumes fibro is the appropriate dx. I find a lot of primary care docs will call almost anything they can't figure out fibro, in order to give the patient something to call their symptoms, rather than "my doctor couldn't figure it out"
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
What labs are you drawing for total body pain/fibro work up?

On recent thread someone mentioned: ESR, Vit D, intracellular Mg, B12, folate, homocysteine, TSH, CBC, EBV, CMV, pregnenalone

I usually get CBC, CMP, ESR, CRP, Vit D, ANA screen, RF.

EBV and CMV are a waste of money. TSH is reasonable if they have hypothyroid symptoms. Those other tests are mostly there to see if there's grounds to refer the patient to rheumatology and have extremely low yield.
There are plenty of scammers out there who will charge patients for expensive test panels for hormones, organic acids, food allergy tests, etc etc, mostly with no detectable scientific basis.

But, while you're doing all the testing, you should consider checking a PHQ-9 or GAD-7, more likely to be positive and more useful than any of the tests you mentioned.
 
But, while you're doing all the testing, you should consider checking a PHQ-9 or GAD-7, more likely to be positive and more useful than any of the tests you mentioned.

Okay...just for the sake of argument: You get a CRITICAL value on the PHQ-9...you immediately burst in the room and tell the patient the bad news, "Mrs. Smith, your ****-9 is through the roof! We're going to have to do something immediately to bring this back down to normal levels of distress."

What's your next move?
 
Step 1: Hug
Step 2: Puppy and/or hot chocolate
Step 3: Referral out
 
For me, the appropriate turf is back to the PCP for PT and/or pool tx, Cymbalta, Prestiq, and/or Lyrica

Maybe psych (depending on how damages they are)

This all assumes fibro is the appropriate dx. I find a lot of primary care docs will call almost anything they can't figure out fibro, in order to give the patient something to call their symptoms, rather than "my doctor couldn't figure it out"


+100000000
 
Global pain (chronic widespread pain) has many causes- "fibromyalgia" is a wastebasket term that is more of a deficit in medical recognition and diagnostic capabilities than an aspersion of patients. Yes, psychological pain may be contributory or causative in some cases, but these are frequently dismissed by physicians or cannot be adequately treated, lending an easy out with "fibromyalgia" diagnosis. Many conditions that mimic fibromyalgia may be ferreted out by an extremely detailed history (requires a lot of time). The best approach to widespread pain I have found is to divide it into one of four categories: widespread bone pain, widespread joint pain, widespread muscle pain, and global pain. Each category has its own differential diagnosis list. For global pain, check out the differential diagnosis at Chronic Widespread Pain Overview
and tailor your history towards these issues. In your report to the PCP, it is important to reflect that you considered all these issues in the history. Lab testing should be limited to a few general lab studies but focused if a person has a history consistent with one of the causes.
 
What labs are you drawing for total body pain/fibro work up?

On recent thread someone mentioned: ESR, Vit D, intracellular Mg, B12, folate, homocysteine, TSH, CBC, EBV, CMV, pregnenalone

I usually get CBC, CMP, ESR, CRP, Vit D, ANA screen, RF.

There is no real workup for this.

You can't really diagnose fibro since it just has vague symptoms that can only be diagnosed "clinically" with some amalgam of symptoms.

The "disease" largely exists because of conmen like this Clauw at University of Michigan who is a consultant for Pfizer who pushes Lyrica to "treat" this condition. Also, when they started to get grants from the NIH, suddenly there was flood of people studying this "disease".

This article basically sums up the politics behind it:

Drug Approved. Is Disease Real?

This is just another example of how "evidence" based medicine is often just a sham made up based upon big pharma interests with paid off consultants who are mostly frauds and do fake research.

Even the guy who came up with the diagnostic criteria for this "disease" doesn't believe in it anymore.

"The diagnosis of fibromyalgia itself worsens the condition by encouraging people to think of themselves as sick and catalog their pain, said Dr. Nortin Hadler, a rheumatologist and professor of medicine at the University of North Carolina who has written extensively about fibromyalgia.
“These people live under a cloud,” he said. “And the more they seem to be around the medical establishment, the sicker they get.”

Dr. Frederick Wolfe, the director of the National Databank for Rheumatic Diseases and the lead author of the 1990 paper that first defined the diagnostic guidelines for fibromyalgia, says he has become cynical and discouraged about the diagnosis. He now considers the condition a physical response to stress, depression, and economic and social anxiety.

The diagnosis of fibromyalgia itself worsens the condition by encouraging people to think of themselves as sick and catalog their pain, said Dr. Nortin Hadler, a rheumatologist and professor of medicine at the University of North Carolina who has written extensively about fibromyalgia."

Interesting how all the lead researchers who aren't paid off by big pharma don't believe in the diagnosis anymore.

Im sure this is "honest" medicine though since 101N loves to quote this Clauw guy as if he is some honest broker.

This "disease" also shows you the corruption at the FDA.

Of note: "The F.D.A. reviewers who initially examined Pfizer’s application for Lyrica in 2004 for diabetic nerve pain found those results unimpressive, especially in comparison to Lyrica’s side effects. The reviewers recommended against approving the drug, citing its side effects."

Gee I wonder how they got the approval for Lyrica despite the FDA's own panel rejecting it?

Funny how the "senior" people (political) decided the "risk/benefit" is fine despite such weak evidence.
 
Last edited:
Eh, I think it's helpful to be able to say, "here's a diagnosis, and here are some things that can help, we don't recommend opioids."
If fibromyalgia didn't exist, we'd have to invent it.
 
Eh, I think it's helpful to be able to say, "here's a diagnosis, and here are some things that can help, we don't recommend opioids."
If fibromyalgia didn't exist, we'd have to invent it.

What actually helps though?

Putting them on Lyrica or Cymbalta?

Have you honestly ever seen a "fibro" patient go, gee whiz doc I was UNEMPLOYED before getting on Lyrica but now that you started me on this DRUG, I have become "pain free" and highly functional?

All I see from Lyrica, Cymbalta, etc are "I think it might possibly help but I still feel like crap overall" from the VAST VAST majority of fibro patients.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Had a consult this week who has fibro, on ultram and lyrica from pcp.
Was homemaker with not a lot of getting out of bed. Started meds, cardio program. Now works ft and pta mom.
 
Had a consult this week who has fibro, on ultram and lyrica from pcp.
Was homemaker with not a lot of getting out of bed. Started meds, cardio program. Now works ft and pta mom.

So she was already on lyrica coming into your practice.

It seems like the cardio program did it.
 
Had a consult this week who has fibro, on ultram and lyrica from pcp.
Was homemaker with not a lot of getting out of bed. Started meds, cardio program. Now works ft and pta mom.
What's the justification for using a narcotic (ultram)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using SDN mobile
 
Had a consult this week who has fibro, on ultram and lyrica from pcp.
Was homemaker with not a lot of getting out of bed. Started meds, cardio program. Now works ft and pta mom.


N of 1 :pompous:

needle in haystack of sea of patients that are recommended those things, comply with the treatment recommendations (1 in 100), which actually translates into leading a high functioning lifestyle (1 in 1000).
 
N of 1 :pompous:

needle in haystack of sea of patients that are recommended those things, comply with the treatment recommendations (1 in 100), which actually translates into leading a high functioning lifestyle (1 in 1000).

Our job is to give them the info, their job is to comply.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
N of 1 :pompous:

needle in haystack of sea of patients that are recommended those things, comply with the treatment recommendations (1 in 100), which actually translates into leading a high functioning lifestyle (1 in 1000).

Correct, that is why I never get the QALY crap they write in articles about Lyrica's benefit for Fibro patients.

Everyone that is "disabled" for fibro before taking Lyrica REMAIN disabled after taking Lyrica from my experience. Never seen that change.
 
N of 1 :pompous:

needle in haystack of sea of patients that are recommended those things, comply with the treatment recommendations (1 in 100), which actually translates into leading a high functioning lifestyle (1 in 1000).

aka: a unicorn... :roflcopter:
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
So now that tramadol is a an opioid, you advocate the use of opioids for patients with fibromyalgia?
 
Last edited:
So now that tramadol is a an opioid, you advocate the use of opioids for patients with fibromyalgia?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using SDN mobile

Tramadol isn't a real opioid. Yes it's classified as an opioid by the government, but the mu affinity is incredibly small for tramadol and no one is going to surpress their breathing by taking 6 tramadol as you might if you took 6 oxy. And no one will be calling your office staff 8 times a day, demanding more tramadol.

I will write tramadol for almost any patient.

That doesn't mean I would write a real opioid for fibro patients, as I won't. But tramadol isn't a real opioid even if technically it is included in that classification by the government.
 
Last edited:
people abuse whatever they can get their hands on. how easy is it to get oxycodone or hydrocodone in North Ireland?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Tramadol withdrawal is nasty in its own way...like withdrawing from opioids and SSRI's. Patients start climbing the walls but have less diarrhea, rhinorrhea, yawning, etc...can't sleep worth a darn though...
 
For me, the issue has nothing to do with whether Tramadol is actually a narcotic or not. 101N has sufficiently scared the crap out of re are the feds counting opioid scripts. Given that most of my folks don't think it does very much, now that it counts against me, I don't see the point to writing yet another "narcotic" script.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using SDN mobile
 
Top