Factors when picking a school

[whyrightmeow]

So I am in my first year and there are a few things I wish I would have considered before I made my final decision. These are only my opinion, and I won't be offended if yours varies. I am only posting this because I wish I would have read something like it before I made my decision.

I am at The Ohio State University right now as an out of state student.

Positives:
Can apply for resident tuition next year
Great school, nice facilities
Curriculum includes Professional development - basically a 1 credit course on a variety of topics including stress, time managment, finances, etc
Parking is right outside the building
Parking pass is a hang tag, so carpoolers can share 1 tag between several cars
24 hr access to building
Nice recreational facility/wall climbing
Social worker available 24/7 (for when you finally have that meltdown)

Negatives:
Quarter system (not semesters) - this complicates everything. Plus you don't finish until June.
Can only leave for 3 weeks over the summer - so any externship must be in-state unless it is HIGHLY unusual.
Lockers are tiny; a normal bookbag will not fit into them. It is also very crowded when everyone is trying to get to their locker at the same time. (seems minor, I know, but its the little stresses that are the worst)

Things I wish I would have asked:
Is anatomy lab structured, or do you just get a dog and a book? (Our canine anatomy lab is, in my opinion, poorly structured)
Are tests returned to students, or is it against honor code to write down questions from the test? (At OSU vet school no tests are returned, EVER. This bothers me after every test, since I like to know what I got wrong and what the correct answer was - this may have been a deal-breaker for me)
How much (live) animal interaction is there for first year students?
Do you buy class notes or are they posted online so notes can be taken directly on a laptop? (I was amazed at needing to buy 80% of my notes, when I came from an undergrad school that I never once bought a course pack for)
Is the schedule set, or does it change from day to day? (Our schedule has a main theme, but basically changes a little each day)

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[battie]

I'm trying to decide on going to interview at Michigan and Minnesota.

Are they on the same day and are you unable to switch interview days?

I've been accepted to Midwestern (and Western but pretty set on not going there) which is less expensive than the two.

Other schools I'm interviewing at other than those (Colorado, Kansas, Tufts) and I'm trying to save some money. I'm also really hoping to get into Mizzou

So you've applied to Michigan, Minnesota, Midwestern, Western, Mizzou, Colorado, Kansas, and Tufts. As far as saving money, I would look at two things in regards to where to go: cost of tuition and cost of living. I would go to the school that has the cheapest option between the two concerns. For example, Colorado has a higher cost of living than Illinois. A classmate was IS for Colorado and waitlisted; pulled off the wait list for a non-sponsored (OOS) seat. He still picked Illinois over Colorado due to the cost of living (tuition is pretty close from what I understand for OOS).

Can anyone give me any input about choosing a school based on the classes they offer in your interest area?

Most schools will be able to help you get experience in most areas. I feel like a lot of people get most of their influence from searching outside the classes (internships/externships/hanging out in the hospital/etc).

 

[Skimble]

Can anyone give me any input about choosing a school based on the classes they offer in your interest area? And deciding on where to go for interviews when you have too many interviews. I'm trying to decide on going to interview at Michigan and Minnesota. I've been accepted to Midwestern (and Western but pretty set on not going there) which is less expensive than the two. Though I worry about the lack of reputation of a new school and I know that Minnesota offers a lot of really cool public health classes in their curriculum which is my interest area. But it's also crazy expensive. I have 3 other schools I'm interviewing at other than those (Colorado, Kansas, Tufts) and I'm trying to save some money. I'm also really hoping to get into Mizzou which is much less expensive than all of those schools and I really think (hope) my interview went well. I'm kind of struggling with this so any input anyone can give would be much appreciated :/.

I would base the decision off money rather than classes offered. You will get the experience you want as long as you go to an accredited school. As far as the interviews go, if you can't reschedule one of them, I'd lean towards the one you feel you are more likely to be accepted based on stats. That's a tough one though. If you feel you have an equal chance to get into both, choose the cheaper option.

 

[Momokeen]

Thank you to those who have replied! I think I wasn't clear enough, none of the interviews are at the same time so I can potentially go to all of them. I interviewed at 4 schools (accepted to Midwestern and Western, rejected by Davis, waiting to hear from Mizzou) already and am planning to also go to Colorado, Kansas, and Tufts. I'm just not sure about going to Michigan and Minnesota in addition to all of those. Going to interviews is so expensive and I really wasn't expecting to get so many interviews, but I applied to 15 schools so yeah. They both have such high tuition and the cold is a little intimidating. I guess right now I'm just trying to figure out if by just counting Midwestern as my acceptance, would I rather go there than either of those schools because it has lower tuition, isn't miserably freezing, and is closer to family. I know this is a decision I have to make but I think I'm just having a hard time deciding. If I had the acceptance to Mizzou then I would decline both but we won't hear for a few weeks and I don't want to bank on that just in case.

 

[battie]

@Momokeen, if you are accepted to only Michigan, Minnesota, Midwestern, and Western, which would you want to go to most?

 

[twelvetigers]

If your answer is Midwestern, then you can definitely politely decline interviews to save money and time. Someone else will get to interview, too, and that's nice for them (assuming they fill your time slot).

 

[Platypus0417]

Can anyone give me any input about choosing a school based on the classes they offer in your interest area? And deciding on where to go for interviews when you have too many interviews. I'm trying to decide on going to interview at Michigan and Minnesota. I've been accepted to Midwestern (and Western but pretty set on not going there) which is less expensive than the two. Though I worry about the lack of reputation of a new school and I know that Minnesota offers a lot of really cool public health classes in their curriculum which is my interest area. But it's also crazy expensive. I have 3 other schools I'm interviewing at other than those (Colorado, Kansas, Tufts) and I'm trying to save some money. I'm also really hoping to get into Mizzou which is much less expensive than all of those schools and I really think (hope) my interview went well. I'm kind of struggling with this so any input anyone can give would be much appreciated :/.

Do any of the schools you listed above allow you to change residency after your first year? So you can pay the in-state tuition as opposed to the horrendous out of state tuition?

 

[KCgophervet]

Do any of the schools you listed above allow you to change residency after your first year? So you can pay the in-state tuition as opposed to the horrendous out of state tuition?

Some have horrendous in state tuition as well

 

[Platypus0417]

Thank you to those who have replied! I think I wasn't clear enough, none of the interviews are at the same time so I can potentially go to all of them. I interviewed at 4 schools (accepted to Midwestern and Western, rejected by Davis, waiting to hear from Mizzou) already and am planning to also go to Colorado, Kansas, and Tufts. I'm just not sure about going to Michigan and Minnesota in addition to all of those. Going to interviews is so expensive and I really wasn't expecting to get so many interviews, but I applied to 15 schools so yeah. They both have such high tuition and the cold is a little intimidating. I guess right now I'm just trying to figure out if by just counting Midwestern as my acceptance, would I rather go there than either of those schools because it has lower tuition, isn't miserably freezing, and is closer to family. I know this is a decision I have to make but I think I'm just having a hard time deciding. If I had the acceptance to Mizzou then I would decline both but we won't hear for a few weeks and I don't want to bank on that just in case.

Where are you from, if you dont mind me asking? Looking at your list the best way to save would be Kansas!!! Tuition and room /board is a lot cheaper!!

 

[Platypus0417]

Also I don't think Midwestern is accredited!!

 

[Platypus0417]

I was over here complaining about OregonSU out of state tuition ($44,538) but damn the schools you listed are pricey!!!!

 

[battie]

Also I don't think Midwestern is accredited!!

They have assurance of accreditation. Once their first class graduates in 2018, they will be fully accredited. Could something happen? Yes. Is it very likely? No.

I was over here complaining about OregonSU out of state tuition ($44,538) but damn the schools you listed are pricey!!!!

44k is fantastic compared to a lot of schools. lol.

 

[Platypus0417]

They have assurance of accreditation. Once their first class graduates in 2018, they will be fully accredited. Could something happen? Yes. Is it very likely? No.



44k is fantastic compared to a lot of schools. lol.

The downside is I can't change residency after my first year....I dont get why Oregon does not allow that....Missouri, WSU, and Davis etc allows it

 

[battie]

The downside is I can't change residency after my first year....I dont get why Oregon does not allow that....Missouri, WSU, and Davis etc allows it

Most schools don't allow it, actually. Out of 30 schools, I think less than 8 or 9 of them allow it. I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that as an OOS, you contribute/have contributed significantly less in taxes than the IS students. Those taxes have helped pay for the school to function. But I may be off base there.

 

[TrashPanda]

The downside is I can't change residency after my first year....I dont get why Oregon does not allow that....Missouri, WSU, and Davis etc allows it

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think it has to do with state laws and isn't necessarily up to the individual school. The vast majority of schools don't allow it- it's just the ones you mentioned plus Ohio State (which is still insanely expensive!) and NC State.

Most schools don't allow it, actually. Out of 30 schools, I think less than 8 or 9 of them allow it. I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that as an OOS, you contribute/have contributed significantly less in taxes than the IS students. Those taxes have helped pay for the school to function. But I may be off base there.

If only... I think it's more like 5 that allow it.

 

[deleted676737]

If only... I think it's more like 5 that allow it.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that it's only Mizzou, Ohio State, UC Davis, WSU, and NCSU that allow OOS students to be considered IS for tuition purposes after first year. Or at least without marrying a resident of that state or something like that.

 

[battie]

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think it has to do with state laws and isn't necessarily up to the individual school. The vast majority of schools don't allow it- it's just the ones you mentioned plus Ohio State (which is still insanely expensive!) and NC State.



If only... I think it's more like 5 that allow it.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that it's only Mizzou, Ohio State, UC Davis, WSU, and NCSU that allow OOS students to be considered IS for tuition purposes after first year. Or at least without marrying a resident of that state or something like that.

Okay, I knew about that list, but I don't know much at all about some schools, stop I buffered my number just in case there were a few I didn't know about.

 

[Momokeen]

Where are you from, if you dont mind me asking? Looking at your list the best way to save would be Kansas!!! Tuition and room /board is a lot cheaper!!

I'm from California . Didn't get in to Davis and I'm definitely going to interview at Kansas. Hoping to get into Mizzou because my brother lives there and they allow you to change to in-state. But I also want to see the other schools. But yeah basically what worries me about Midwestern is that they are new and they don't have a sick large animal hospital, but it is cheaper than both Michigan and Minnesota. So I guess I'm not 100% on which one I would choose if I only got into those.

 

[Skimble]

Also I don't think Midwestern is accredited!!

They have assurance of accreditation. Once their first class graduates in 2018, they will be fully accredited. Could something happen? Yes. Is it very likely? No.



44k is fantastic compared to a lot of schools. lol.

Even if something does happen and midwestern doesn't get accredited, any student enrolled will still graduate as if from a fully accredited school, so no risk there.

 

[BishopFaust]

Since Midwestern is being discussed right now I need some quick advice about possibly picking a school...
I am debating on the following:

• Applying to Midwestern just in case the last school I applied to this round (UGA) rejects me.
• Applying to Midwestern anyway and contemplating the costs/etc of moving to UGA vs. Midwestern...I live in CA so Midwestern is much closer, but the tuition costs for Midwestern is obviously more than UGA.
• Foregoing all of the above and re-applying to schools during the next VMCAS cycle.

I know Midwestern can be a polarizing topic here on the forum, but ideally I would like to start school this year.

 

[Liquid_Phoenix]

Since Midwestern is being discussed right now I need some quick advice about possibly picking a school...
I am debating on the following:

• Applying to Midwestern just in case the last school I applied to this round (UGA) rejects me.
• Applying to Midwestern anyway and contemplating the costs/etc of moving to UGA vs. Midwestern...I live in CA so Midwestern is much closer, but the tuition costs for Midwestern is obviously more than UGA.
• Foregoing all of the above and re-applying to schools during the next VMCAS cycle.

I know Midwestern can be a polarizing topic here on the forum, but ideally I would like to start school this year.

You could wait until you find out whether or not you've been accepted at UGA before applying to MWU. UGA should be making their decisions by the end of January/beginning of February according to the email they recently sent. Midwestern accepts applications until the March 1st deadline.

 

[Liquid_Phoenix]

Hey guys, I went through the last couple of pages and added some new info to the document.

Any current Midwestern students willing to add to the document for Midwestern pros/cons?

 

[alohacat319]

@hazelmoo

Any current Midwestern students willing to add to the document for Midwestern pros/cons?

 

[hazelmoo]

Any current Midwestern students willing to add to the document for Midwestern pros/cons?

Pros: everything
Cons: it's expensive

 

[Liquid_Phoenix]

Pros: everything
Cons: it's expensive

Hahahahahaha

 

[Momokeen]

Pros: everything
Cons: it's expensive

@hazelmoo do you feel like you lack large animal (sick) or wildlife experience at all?

 

[hazelmoo]

@hazelmoo do you feel like you lack large animal (sick) or wildlife experience at all?

Not AT ALL. We have a great large animal program, and the wildlife opportunities are certainly there if you chose to take advantage of them! We don't have a wildlife rehab clinic yet, but I don't feel that I'm missing out on anything because I find wildlife stuff to do and take advantage of it.

 

[battie]

Pros: everything
Cons: it's expensive

Not sure it I will add that to the list just for fun or not. Lol

 

[Momokeen]

Not AT ALL. We have a great large animal program, and the wildlife opportunities are certainly there if you chose to take advantage of them! We don't have a wildlife rehab clinic yet, but I don't feel that I'm missing out on anything because I find wildlife stuff to do and take advantage of it.

Awesome. That's great to hear

 

[amgoose319]

Anyone have any insight as to pros/cons for Lincoln Memorial?

 

[Chimikins]

Can we get a pros/ cons list of Cornell? I'm kinda sorta maybe leaning towards attending Cornell. And I kinda sorta wanna do some good research before committing.

 

[battie]

Can we get a pros/ cons list of Cornell? I'm kinda sorta maybe leaning towards attending Cornell. And I kinda sorta wanna do some good research before committing.

There's a document on the previous page towards the bottom with all the updated pros cons.

 

[Momokeen]

Hi everyone. Not sure if this has been asked already on the thread, but does the name of the school you go to really matter that much when getting an internship and residency? I'm pretty sure I want to specialize. I'm interested in working in public health so maybe a public health residency or lab animal or UGAs clinical micro with a focus in infectious disease - but I know all that is a long way off. So I'm just curious, how much should that factor into my decision? Right now I have acceptances to Colorado State and Mizzou (and Western and Midwestern but those are out now pretty much) and I'm waiting to hear from Kansas state, Tufts, and Oklahoma state. I know Mizzou is so much less tuition wise than a lot of the others and I loved it. Some of the other schools are "ranked" higher which I know is crap, but some people have said it would be helpful for residencies. Any input I could get would be much appreciated!

 

[deleted676737]

Hi everyone. Not sure if this has been asked already on the thread, but does the name of the school you go to really matter that much when getting an internship and residency? I'm pretty sure I want to specialize. I'm interested in working in public health so maybe a public health residency or lab animal or UGAs clinical micro with a focus in infectious disease - but I know all that is a long way off. So I'm just curious, how much should that factor into my decision? Right now I have acceptances to Colorado State and Mizzou (and Western and Midwestern but those are out now pretty much) and I'm waiting to hear from Kansas state, Tufts, and Oklahoma state. I know Mizzou is so much less tuition wise than a lot of the others and I loved it. Some of the other schools are "ranked" higher which I know is crap, but some people have said it would be helpful for residencies. Any input I could get would be much appreciated!

Honestly, I really doubt that the ranking/name of the school will matter much in terms of getting internships and residencies, if at all. All of the schools you listed are basically on the same playing field as AVMA-accredited institutions and all will give you a good education. I might see students at the really new vet schools that have yet to graduate a class (MWU and LMU) possibly having a harder time, but that's about the extent of it.

Get good grades, make lots of connections, and take advantage of breaks to gain experience and/or do research in your field of interest. That will make far more of a difference in your getting internship and/or residency than rank of your vet school will.

I would still consider cost to be the #1 factor in choosing where to attend IMO.

 

[Momokeen]

Honestly, I really doubt that the ranking/name of the school will matter much in terms of getting internships and residencies, if at all. All of the schools you listed are basically on the same playing field as AVMA-accredited institutions and all will give you a good education. I might see students at the really new vet schools that have yet to graduate a class (MWU and LMU) possibly having a harder time, but that's about the extent of it.

Get good grades, make lots of connections, and take advantage of breaks to gain experience and/or do research in your field of interest. That will make far more of a difference in your getting internship and/or residency than rank of your vet school will.

I would still consider cost to be the #1 factor in choosing where to attend IMO.

Thank you for your input! That's good to know.

And yes cost is always at the forefront of my mind when thinking about choosing a school . I'm just trying to take all things into account so that I'm 100% comfortable with the decision I make

 

[Ashgirl]

Hi everyone. Not sure if this has been asked already on the thread, but does the name of the school you go to really matter that much when getting an internship and residency? I'm pretty sure I want to specialize. I'm interested in working in public health so maybe a public health residency or lab animal or UGAs clinical micro with a focus in infectious disease - but I know all that is a long way off. So I'm just curious, how much should that factor into my decision? Right now I have acceptances to Colorado State and Mizzou (and Western and Midwestern but those are out now pretty much) and I'm waiting to hear from Kansas state, Tufts, and Oklahoma state. I know Mizzou is so much less tuition wise than a lot of the others and I loved it. Some of the other schools are "ranked" higher which I know is crap, but some people have said it would be helpful for residencies. Any input I could get would be much appreciated!

My bias for Mizzou aside, your academic performance in vet school (aka YOUR ranking, not the school's ranking!), and letters of recommendation is way way way more important than the "ranking" of a school.

 

[Momokeen]

My bias for Mizzou aside, your academic performance in vet school (aka YOUR ranking, not the school's ranking!), and letters of recommendation is way way way more important than the "ranking" of a school.

Yeah that makes much more sense to me. I was just reading some older threads and was curious . Thank you! (Btw I loved Mizzou. I got the warm fuzzy feeling and could definitely see myself going there )

 

[Platypus0417]

Honestly any school works as long as you reach your goal of becoming a veterinarian haha

 

[KCgophervet]

Honestly, I really doubt that the ranking/name of the school will matter much in terms of getting internships and residencies, if at all. All of the schools you listed are basically on the same playing field as AVMA-accredited institutions and all will give you a good education. I might see students at the really new vet schools that have yet to graduate a class (MWU and LMU) possibly having a harder time, but that's about the extent of it.

Get good grades, make lots of connections, and take advantage of breaks to gain experience and/or do research in your field of interest. That will make far more of a difference in your getting internship and/or residency than rank of your vet school will.

I would still consider cost to be the #1 factor in choosing where to attend IMO.

Mizzou would be good for lab animal interests - I know they have a large and well run residency program and I know there's a class in the subject as well as a rotation. A lot of it, so I've heard, boils down to who you know and what connections you've made (along with your own personal performance ie class rank, experiences, GPA, etc) and at Mizzou I think you could make some good connections.

 

[RubyBertha]

Does anyone have any updated info on Auburn or A&M? I interviewed at Auburn on Friday and fell in love. I'm from Texas though and interviewed with A&M also earlier this month. If it comes down to choosing between the two, I'm gonna have a tough time. A&M has always been my dream school, but Auburn really blew me away this weekend! I want to focus on large animal medicine (equine and food animal) and am very interested in reproduction.

 

[battie]

I'm from Texas though and interviewed with A&M also earlier this month. If it comes down to choosing between the two, I'm gonna have a tough time.

Is TA&M a private school, or do you get instate tuition? Granted, I'm not sure what the tuition difference would be, but it's something to definitely consider

 

[vetmedhead]

Is TA&M a private school, or do you get instate tuition? Granted, I'm not sure what the tuition difference would be, but it's something to definitely consider

A&M does IS tuition and they are very cheap compared to most schools (including when you compare IS tuitions against one another).

 

[epivetlove]

Bryan-College Station is also fairly cheap when it comes to cost of living. And we have a very active presence in reproduction, including a Therio residency (equine), a Reproductive Sciences Lab, the Equine Embryo Laboratory, and the department of Reproductive Biology...if repro is your thing.

 

[RubyBertha]

Is TA&M a private school, or do you get instate tuition? Granted, I'm not sure what the tuition difference would be, but it's something to definitely consider

My cost of tuition at A&M would be around 20k less a year. Definitely a consideration, I just want all the factors to consider.

 

[JaynaAli]

In my opinion you shouldn't ignore a difference of 80k (plus interest), especially when you will likely be happy at your IS. Run loan simulations (VIN has a nice tool) and actually think about what that much of an additional loan burden would mean in regards to your ability to buy a home, new car, save for retirement, provide for potential children, etc. I went to a cheap in-state school and don't have a ridiculous amount of debt, but the people I know who do owe 100-300k would basically jump at any way to reduce their debt by 80k. It's easy to think it doesn't matter as a pre-vet, but it really should be your #1 consideration in my opinion.

 

[battie]

In my opinion you shouldn't ignore a difference of 80k (plus interest), especially when you will likely be happy at your IS. Run loan simulations (VIN has a nice tool) and actually think about what that much of an additional loan burden would mean in regards to your ability to buy a home, new car, save for retirement, provide for potential children, etc. I went to a cheap in-state school and don't have a ridiculous amount of debt, but the people I know who do owe 100-300k would basically jump at any way to reduce their debt by 80k. It's easy to think it doesn't matter as a pre-vet, but it really should be your #1 consideration in my opinion.

Had I gotten into my in-state, I would have a max of 118,000 to pay back (if that; my cost of travel would have been much lower as I would have been 1.5 hours from family and 3 hours from my undergrad; here I'm 14 hours from both). As an OOS where I actually got in, I will have 225k. That's a difference of almost my interest I'm projected to pay. Completely different worlds. I would have gone Hunger Games style to get an IS seat. lol.

 

[deleted676737]

In my opinion you shouldn't ignore a difference of 80k (plus interest), especially when you will likely be happy at your IS. Run loan simulations (VIN has a nice tool) and actually think about what that much of an additional loan burden would mean in regards to your ability to buy a home, new car, save for retirement, provide for potential children, etc. I went to a cheap in-state school and don't have a ridiculous amount of debt, but the people I know who do owe 100-300k would basically jump at any way to reduce their debt by 80k. It's easy to think it doesn't matter as a pre-vet, but it really should be your #1 consideration in my opinion.

Completely agreed. I would very strongly consider this, @RubyBertha, especially if you happen to have any undergrad debt.

Here is the VIN loan repayment simulator if you want to play around with that and visualize how the numbers might approximately work out if you go IS at TAMU vs. Auburn: http://www.vin.com/studentdebtcenter/default.aspx?pid=14352&id=7578014

 

[vetmedhead]

My cost of tuition at A&M would be around 20k less a year. Definitely a consideration, I just want all the factors to consider.

Out of curiosity, did you ever get the chance to tour the large animal facilities at TAMU? They are really nice and they get an awesome LA caseload over there. I remember when I toured there last summer I was totally blown away by their large animal hospital (and honestly, I still kind of am when I think about it).

 

[battie]

Out of curiosity, did you ever get the chance to tour the large animal facilities at TAMU? They are really nice and they get an awesome LA caseload over there. I remember when I toured there last summer I was totally blown away by their large animal hospital (and honestly, I still kind of am when I think about it).

I get to see it at SAVMA!!! My school is stuck in perpetual construction, so seeing done construction will be exciting. Lol

 

[vetmedhead]

I get to see it at SAVMA!!! My school is stuck in perpetual construction, so seeing done construction will be exciting. Lol

Like, not kidding, I almost died the entire time I was on their LA ward - it's very cool. I never got the chance to see their new teaching building because that didn't get finished until last semester but their facilities are really nice at TAMU.

I think I may have been extra blown away just because I've never really gotten super up close & personal with CSU's LA facilities because they restrict a lot of layman/tour access in and out of that ward for biosecurity reasons, and I haven't gotten around to being over there for classes yet (though that'll change in a few weeks).

 

[TrashPanda]

Had I gotten into my in-state, I would have a max of 118,000 to pay back (if that; my cost of travel would have been much lower as I would have been 1.5 hours from family and 3 hours from my undergrad; here I'm 14 hours from both). As an OOS where I actually got in, I will have 225k. That's a difference of almost my interest I'm projected to pay. Completely different worlds. I would have gone Hunger Games style to get an IS seat. lol.

I guess that's not including living expenses?

It looks like when vet students on here talk about their total loan figure, they often don't include rent/food/transportation expenses/etc. I know some people get family support, have savings, or have an SO who pays or splits expenses... but what does everyone else do? Working full-time in the summer and part-time during the year doesn't seem like it would cover all that much.

According to the VIN cost of education map (based on info the schools provide), cost of living over four years varies from $52,000 - $135,000. That ads on quite a bit! I can't tell if people are just covering living expenses without loans, just not including it, or what. I have a couple options I'm considering with similar tuition but different costs of living, and it's tough to tell how much difference that will make.