EM PD - Ask Me Anything

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So does a middle 1/3 sloe from a top institution carry more weight than a top 1/3 sloe from an average institution?

It's all in the eye of the beholder.

Personally, I care less about the name of the institution writing the sloe, and more about the statistical breakdown of the grade given. There are some community programs out there that are very tough graders, and some university-based programs out there that are very top-heavy in their grades. There's not a standard distribution across all the EM programs, which is why the sloe has the section where you have to state how many people got each grade and each sloe rank category each year.

So if I have two different candidates with "top 1/3" SLOEs, the strength of the SLOEs in comparison to one another would be something as follows in terms of impressiveness:
1. Well known place that doesn't inflate their grades
2. Place that doesn't inflate their grades but isn't a big name place.
3. Big name place with grade inflation
4. No name place with grade inflation

That's how, in my mind, I think about the quality of a SLOE, taking into account the prestige of the institution, and how they do or don't over inflate their SLOE scoring. Obviously, this is one persons opinion, take that for what its worth.

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Already had someone who is just finishing 2nd year request an EM sub-I at the end of 3rd year or beginning of 4th year. Damn, you all are starting earlier and earlier...
We've been freaking all the underclassmen out with the "EM is so competitive now!" mantra for the last two years. Sorry.
 
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How do you view SLOEs coming from EM/IM rotations?
 
Cant say Ive seen one. I mean, what is the reason for doing an EM/IM divided month? Is this specifically an audition set up at an EM/IM program?
Yes, just wondering if the SLOE will be useful outside of applying for the combination programs.
 
Im going to make this as short as possible:

First a little about me:

- Step 1 210’s
- Step 2 CK: Pass on second attempt: 210’s
- STEP 2 CS PASS
- No SLOES
- Did 2 EM observerships post graduation.
- IMG (studied in Europe)
- Worked in EM research for the last year with no publications, but gained many contacts at a large academic institution.
-US citizen

So here it is:

I went through the match last year and applied to EM with some IM programs peppered in as a back up. I ended up only scoring 2 interviews and matched into a categorical mid-sized IM program. I didn’t get turned onto EM until after I graduated, and couldn’t get any EM clinical rotations (or SLOEs). The one EM program I interviewed at said I interviewed really well, and I think they couldn’t risk letting someone in their program without any SLOEs.

While IM was a backup plan, I do not want to switch out. I’m planning on finishing my IM residency and then reapplying to EM. I feel like I was made to do EM. I love the fast pace, the variety, the undifferentiated patients, the shift work, and the high turnover. I love the people, and the “grit” of the ED.

Over the next few years, what can I do, to make myself more competitive as an EM applicant?

I know, this post was kind of jumbled, but it’s difficult to condense your life story and CV into a few paragraphs

Any advice is greatly appreciated!
 
Im going to make this as short as possible:

First a little about me:

- Step 1 210’s
- Step 2 CK: Pass on second attempt: 210’s
- STEP 2 CS PASS
- No SLOES
- Did 2 EM observerships post graduation.
- IMG (studied in Europe)
- Worked in EM research for the last year with no publications, but gained many contacts at a large academic institution.
-US citizen

So here it is:

I went through the match last year and applied to EM with some IM programs peppered in as a back up. I ended up only scoring 2 interviews and matched into a categorical mid-sized IM program. I didn’t get turned onto EM until after I graduated, and couldn’t get any EM clinical rotations (or SLOEs). The one EM program I interviewed at said I interviewed really well, and I think they couldn’t risk letting someone in their program without any SLOEs.

While IM was a backup plan, I do not want to switch out. I’m planning on finishing my IM residency and then reapplying to EM. I feel like I was made to do EM. I love the fast pace, the variety, the undifferentiated patients, the shift work, and the high turnover. I love the people, and the “grit” of the ED.

Over the next few years, what can I do, to make myself more competitive as an EM applicant?

I know, this post was kind of jumbled, but it’s difficult to condense your life story and CV into a few paragraphs

Any advice is greatly appreciated!


I'm just an applicant, so please take my feedback for what it's worth (which may not be much).

From what I've seen, your low Step 1 score, your failed Step 2 CK, and your barely-passing Step 2 CK score are red flags. IMGs are at a disadvantage, with very few matching into EM each year. Given all of this, it will be challenging for you to successfully match into EM even after doing an entire IM residency. There is an EM "fellowship" option, but you will not be an ABEM board-certified (or board-eligible) physician at the end of it.

It's currently possible to be an IM-trained physician who staffs an Emergency Department in an undesirable or rural location.

I wish I had more encouraging advice :/ Best of luck.
 
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Surely: thanks for the advice, ive been getting that response alot. I understand the challenges ahead, but I will regret it if I didn't at least try.

I should have clarified: I have decided to reapply when I finish with IM. Given this, what things should I do during residency to make myself a more competitive candidate for my EM application. I really would like to refrain from the "its going to be super hard, your probably not going to make it" talk. Im just looking for practical advice on how to become better, in the situation that i'm in.
 
Surely: thanks for the advice, ive been getting that response alot. I understand the challenges ahead, but I will regret it if I didn't at least try.

I should have clarified: I have decided to reapply when I finish with IM. Given this, what things should I do during residency to make myself a more competitive candidate for my EM application. I really would like to refrain from the "its going to be super hard, your probably not going to make it" talk. Im just looking for practical advice on how to become better, in the situation that i'm in.

Sorry, I got my stickied threads mixed up and thought this was the "What are my chances?" thread, but I was mistaken! Shouldn't have butted in. Hopefully others will chime in with more on-topic responses.
 
The best thing you would have going for you is if you networked with EM programs (is there one at the site you are doing your IM residency? any close by?), and do really well in residency. Get a stellar LOR from your PD. Become chief resident. Maybe do some acute care research. Realize its going to be very very tough for you to match into EM after you finish your IM residency, so you are going to have to have some breaks fall your way.
 
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Quick question:
I've contacted a few programs who have initial accreditation from ACGME and I have asked which match they are planning to participate in, and they have said "both". Asked to clarify and they said as a DO we could apply to whichever match we preferred... and they didn't say much after that. Do you know how this would work? Thanks.
 
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Quick question:
I've contacted a few programs who have initial accreditation from ACGME and I have asked which match they are planning to participate in, and they have said "both". Asked to clarify and they said as a DO we could apply to whichever match we preferred... and they didn't say much after that. Do you know how this would work? Thanks.

If a program stays four years, they can participate in both matches until the AOA match goes away. 3 year programs can only participate in the ACGME match.

If the program is eligible for both matches, they choose how many spots they want to match in the AOA match. All other spots are left over for the ACGME match. If a program has eight spots, and they designate that they are going to match six in the AOA match, then they have two spots open for the ACGME match assuming they matched all 6 AOA spots.
 
If a program stays four years, they can participate in both matches until the AOA match goes away. 3 year programs can only participate in the ACGME match.

If the program is eligible for both matches, they choose how many spots they want to match in the AOA match. All other spots are left over for the ACGME match. If a program has eight spots, and they designate that they are going to match six in the AOA match, then they have two spots open for the ACGME match assuming they matched all 6 AOA spots.

Wow.. complicated. Thanks for taking the time to answer questions!
 
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The best thing you would have going for you is if you networked with EM programs (is there one at the site you are doing your IM residency? any close by?), and do really well in residency. Get a stellar LOR from your PD. Become chief resident. Maybe do some acute care research. Realize its going to be very very tough for you to match into EM after you finish your IM residency, so you are going to have to have some breaks fall your way.


I sincerely appreciate the advice from everyone. I understand its going to be tough, but I feel like I’ll regret it if I don’t try. I worked very closely with some of the residents and faculty during the last year and seem to have made a good enough impression that they granted me an interview.


I have some questions:
1. Would I need to get SLOE’s throughout residency? Is it possible to get them through my EM rotations?


2. How can I redeem myself for my poor performance on step 1 and 2?


3. When should I speak up to my PD about applying again? Is it a good idea to try and do EM electives during my final year?


4. What is the toughest hurdle in my application that I will have to overcome?


Thanks again for your time and advice!
 
Hello gamerEMdoc. Thank you for taking the time in answering all of these questions. I am looking for a little honest assessment of what things might be looking like for me and my chances at matching into EM.

Prior to medical school, I was a physician assistant working in both pain management and ER. I was having a hard time deciding between the EM and anesthesia but as I am currently doing a core EM rotation, I have come to realize that I enjoy this line of work much more anesthesia.

D.O. school, no red flags, no fails, first 2 years mostly A's with a few B's.
Third year all A's. GPA 3.8.
Step 1: 211, Comlex Level 1: 513
Comlex PE = Pass
Step 2: 228, Comlex Level 2: TBD
1 poster presentation after doing a medical mission trip (non EM related), no notable research or extracurriculars beyond non-traditional life experience and prior career.
Currently have 2 aways scheduled. 1 AOA and another at a brand new MD EM residency. Hoping to get another MD rotation in Oct. If not, then I will have one SLOE unless the one from the AOA program counts as well.

I was already planning on applying broadly and carefully but I was really hoping to show a solid improvement over my below average Step 1 score. While I did have a 17 point improvement, its still below average.

Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
Below average doesn't mean you won't match, statistically you still have a good match chance with those scores. If you do well on your clinical rotations, you likely will. Get 2 SLOEs, even if one is the AOA SLOE. Apply broadly and strategically target AOA friendly programs in the ACGME match.
 
1. Would I need to get SLOE’s throughout residency? Is it possible to get them through my EM rotations?

SLOEs are supposed to be comparing 4th year med students to other 4th year med students. Comparing a 3rd year IM resident on their ED rotation is not the same as a 4th year med student, and it wouldn't really make much sense IMO, since a lot of the SLOE is about your rotation grade and performance compared to other 4th year med students.

2. How can I redeem myself for my poor performance on step 1 and 2?

You can't really, from a boards standpoint. You can't go back and re-take them, what's done is done. Your not matching in EM had far more to do with your lack of SLOEs and IMG status than it did your board scores. And you can't really change any of that stuff now. So best you can do is try and network, and do as well as you can in your current residency and see if your PD can help you find a way into EM later.

3. When should I speak up to my PD about applying again? Is it a good idea to try and do EM electives during my final year?

Since you are planning on finishing IM first, I don't see any reason not to tell your PD about it now. Make sure to reassure them you have no desire to jump ship early, and you fully intend on finishing out an IM residency before persuing EM. Tell them you want to be boarded in both specialties. Once they are reassured you aren't going to try and bolt, they will hopefully help you as best as they can.

4. What is the toughest hurdle in my application that I will have to overcome?

Mainly the lack of SLOEs and IMG status. That will have to be made up by your residency experience and hopefully some networking by you and/or your PD.

Hope that helps! Best of luck!
 
US citizen IMG graduated in 2013 and just finished my Internal Medicine Residency; currently board eligible and preparing for my exam in August. I am applying EM residency for July 2018 entering class...

2011 Step 1: 210
2012 Step 2 CK: 219
2012 Step 2 CS: Pass
2015 Step 3: Fail, 200
Have ATLS, State License, DEA, etc
Will be able to get 2-3 SLOR from my hospital’s ER (no residency program) and 1 LOR from my IM program director

Have 2 locum assignments lined up: one as hospitalist and another as emergency physician with Indian Health Service; both will be mentioned in MyERAS application.


Do PDs know that USMLE are now inflated compare to the time when I took it?
What else can I do to improve my chance?
SLOR will be from non academic ER physician, is that okay?


Thank you.
 
SLOEs are meant to rank 4th years vs 4th years who rotate at EM residency programs. They really aren't meant for people in this non-traditional situation, although I totally understand why people get them. They will be viewed more as a traditional letter of recommendation. As for the board scores inflating a bit, I'm sure PDs are aware of it to an extent, but I doubt the awareness of that will make a big difference. The Step 3 failure will be a concern. Overall though, you'll certainly come in way ahead of many new grads, so for whatever program that does match you if you do match, they'll likely get a bit of a steal up front, since you will hit the ground running. Best of luck!
 
Would funding be an obstacle given that I have already finished 3 years of IM training?
This may be a dumb question but what kind of hospital are immune from funding issue...
Would it be a good idea to call each individual program and find out if they would have problem with the funding so I know which one not to apply to?
 
Would funding be an obstacle given that I have already finished 3 years of IM training?
This may be a dumb question but what kind of hospital are immune from funding issue...
Would it be a good idea to call each individual program and find out if they would have problem with the funding so I know which one not to apply to?


So I would pay attention and apply to every
Would funding be an obstacle given that I have already finished 3 years of IM training?
This may be a dumb question but what kind of hospital are immune from funding issue...
Would it be a good idea to call each individual program and find out if they would have problem with the funding so I know which one not to apply to?


Frequently check the saem website under residency vacancy services. If you've already done a residency, many times, if they have a spot available, funding isn't an issue because they have an open spot
 
Re: funding. Many programs are over their federal funding cap. They may be accreditted by the ACGME for 8 residents per year, but because the federal funds are based on a total number of GME spots for the hospital, and this can't be increased as you grow, many hospitals are way over their GME cap. As an example, my residency is 8/year, but only 4 of those spots get federal subsidy funding. The rest are just budgeted for. This is actually quite common. So yeah, if a place has all of its spots funded, then maybe they'd look at someone without funding negatively, but since many are well over their cap, taking someone without funding just fills one of those unfunded spots they already have, so its no big deal.
 
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Sir,

I truly appreciate your assistance.

Just one last question.

So I can only sent 4 LOR, which I can get easily… but which one would weight more?

IM (hospitalist) attending that I worked with VS my IM PD who I have never worked with VS Department Chief for IM who I have worked with.

Do I even need my PD LOR given that I have already graduated and its not like I am applying for fellowship or trying to transfer to another program while in residency.

Thank you.
 
This is amazing to read. My question for you is this: I'm a non traditional student (I'll be 40) when I graduate med school. That bring said I was a nurse for almost 10 years before matriculation. 5 of those in a. Emergency Room. EM is the way I want to go. How do I talk about this without seeming pretentious?
 
This is amazing to read. My question for you is this: I'm a non traditional student (I'll be 40) when I graduate med school. That bring said I was a nurse for almost 10 years before matriculation. 5 of those in a. Emergency Room. EM is the way I want to go. How do I talk about this without seeming pretentious?

Recognize that previous EM experience is both good and bad. Have answers during the interview how it can help, and why it could be difficult for some. Being a nurse, PA, medic etc brings a wealth of experience, but also people who've had some independent practice in the ED can come accross as a know it all and risk being considered difficult to train, since some faculty worry about how they will take going from independent to being a resident.

Key to talking about your experience is to be humble about it, dont brag, but also be ready to discuss any leadership you may have had, or experiences you may have had that led you to deciding to go back to medical school.
 
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Sir,

I truly appreciate your assistance.

Just one last question.

So I can only sent 4 LOR, which I can get easily… but which one would weight more?

IM (hospitalist) attending that I worked with VS my IM PD who I have never worked with VS Department Chief for IM who I have worked with.

Do I even need my PD LOR given that I have already graduated and its not like I am applying for fellowship or trying to transfer to another program while in residency.

Thank you.

If you never worked with your PD (how does THAT happen), then Id say go with the hospitalist or your chairman. Or if you are out in independent practice now as a hospitalist, your current chairman.
 
If you never worked with your PD (how does THAT happen), then Id say go with the hospitalist or your chairman. Or if you are out in independent practice now as a hospitalist, your current chairman.


I guess I have but only staffed with PD for outpatient clinic here and there and covered his inpatient team once as a AMOD and assist his resident when he was overwhelmed and was unfortunate that didn't have him as my inpatient attending.

Sir, may I know which residency program you are with?
 
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So quickly scanning through just now and having read the thread before, I can't remember you discussing 4 year vs 3 year residencies. I'm not trying to start a flame war and I know there are a lot of different opinions on this. But what do you think the advantages/disadvantages of the two are? Basically from the perspective of what one is trying to get out of a residency, which one will better suit them.
 
Oh I definitely listed it under my hobbies. Overwatch is its own beast though.
Lol I think any program that knows what Overwatch is definitely gets a few points in my book.

You'll get extra points on my end if you submit Genji as your ERAS picture.
 
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So quickly scanning through just now and having read the thread before, I can't remember you discussing 4 year vs 3 year residencies. I'm not trying to start a flame war and I know there are a lot of different opinions on this. But what do you think the advantages/disadvantages of the two are? Basically from the perspective of what one is trying to get out of a residency, which one will better suit them.

I have my biases here, but I'll explain what I see as the benefit of 4 vs 3 and vice versa. For disclosure, I trained at a 3 year program, and the program I work at is a 3 year program. We had been a four year program when we were an AOA program (they are all four years) but we switched to 3 years during the merger.

Advantage of 3 vs 4:
- You are done a year early. May not seem like a lot, but its about a 300K or more loss of money to take on that fourth year. Think of it this way. By doing that 4th year, you are losing 300K, the equivalent of having your loans all paid off in one year. That's a huge huge huge advantage of 3 years.
- You get to where you want to live/work sooner
- There is little difference in clinical skills/production after a few months as an attending
- Employers don't care about the 4th year at all. I have residents being signed months into their first year of residency. Places are DESPERATE for ED docs. You don't need a 4th year of residency to find a good job.

Advantages of 4 vs 3:
- Many are at prestigious big name places, which may be desirable if interested in big time research or becoming a big name in academic medicine
- Some may find comfort in being a resident for another year, putting off the responsibility of going out on their own by another year
- More elective time

Maybe there's another perspective that I didn't mention, people can feel free to chime in. To me, its simplified down to "is it worth a loss of 300k and an extra year of loss of autonomy in order to go to a big name place for academic purposes". If you want to be the next biggest name on the lecture circuit and see your name on a bunch of publications, maybe it may be worth it to you. If you just want to graduate and work in EM or do academics at a place that's not Johns Hopkins, then you probably should go the 3 year route.
 
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I usually main Reaper; dont want to give people mixed messages since I am going into a profession to save lives :rofl::rofl::rofl:
Look out for the OW lapel pin when I interview.

Reaper and Genji were my favorite back when I played. Havent played since the original characters/maps. Any of the new characters decent to play with?
 
I have my biases here, but I'll explain what I see as the benefit of 4 vs 3 and vice versa. For disclosure, I trained at a 3 year program, and the program I work at is a 3 year program. We had been a four year program when we were an AOA program (they are all four years) but we switched to 3 years during the merger.

Advantage of 3 vs 4:
- You are done a year early. May not seem like a lot, but its about a 300K or more loss of money to take on that fourth year. Think of it this way. By doing that 4th year, you are losing 300K, the equivalent of having your loans all paid off in one year. That's a huge huge huge advantage of 3 years.
- You get to where you want to live/work sooner
- There is little difference in clinical skills/production after a few months as an attending
- Employers don't care about the 4th year at all. I have residents being signed months into their first year of residency. Places are DESPERATE for ED docs. You don't need a 4th year of residency to find a good job.

Advantages of 4 vs 3:
- Many are at prestigious big name places, which may be desirable if interested in big time research or becoming a big name in academic medicine
- Some may find comfort in being a resident for another year, putting off the responsibility of going out on their own by another year
- More elective time

Maybe there's another perspective that I didn't mention, people can feel free to chime in. To me, its simplified down to "is it worth a loss of 300k and an extra year of loss of autonomy in order to go to a big name place for academic purposes". If you want to be the next biggest name on the lecture circuit and see your name on a bunch of publications, maybe it may be worth it to you. If you just want to graduate and work in EM or do academics at a place that's not Johns Hopkins, then you probably should go the 3 year route.

New trainee at a four year program. I had no preference entering the match, interviewed at a mix of 3's and 4's, and was impressed across the board with the quality of clinical training. It came down to how comfortable I felt with the people in the program, mostly. I just happened to vibe less with the people at the 3's for some reason. Some other thoughts:
1) As @gamerEMdoc mentioned, some (definitely not all) of the big name programs happen to be 4 years. This was important to me because it provides leverage to find a job going forward in competitive markets without having to train at a program in those markets. Prestige essentially equates to age of the program, which begets a larger alumni network. Older program, more alumni, more likely to have friendly faces in locations where I want to work. On the job hunt it never hurts to have the department chair of your potential employer as a fellow alum.
2) I'm strongly considering an IM/CCM fellowship, which has a long bill of prerequisites (6 months). Very few 3 year programs would have left that option on the table.
3) The financial argument is certainly a strong one for the newly indebted. Fortunately I went to a state school, have no family to support, have a relatively low debt burden, and now live in a relatively cheap area. 300k is a lot of money, no doubt. But I'm a thrifty, simple guy and didn't feel like choosing a 3 for solely financial reasons was justifiable.

Addressing the original question from @mw18 it's important to realize that it depends on "what one is trying to get out of residency". If it's simply excellent clinical training, almost any EM residency can offer you that. You really have to decide for yourself what is important, then find the best fit for your interests and personality.
 
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Reaper and Genji were my favorite back when I played. Havent played since the original characters/maps. Any of the new characters decent to play with?

Orisa is loads of fun to play. A Genji ERAS picture would definitely trigger me if I were reviewing applications though!
 
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So quickly scanning through just now and having read the thread before, I can't remember you discussing 4 year vs 3 year residencies. I'm not trying to start a flame war and I know there are a lot of different opinions on this. But what do you think the advantages/disadvantages of the two are? Basically from the perspective of what one is trying to get out of a residency, which one will better suit them.

I agree with SpacemanSpifff, I also was undecided, interviewed at both and preferred 4 year programs. I think it all depends on your personal goals and what you want out of residency. Will you be well prepared to practice independently after 3 years? Absolutely. The way I looked at it was that I wanted a 4th year that really offered something unique, which the vast majority of them do. In my opinion, most 4th years offer the opportunity to develop leadership and teaching skills much more than building clinical skills. And yes, there is the unspoken truth that if you want to attend certain prestigious programs in desirable locations you have to be willing to take on the additional year.
 
Reaper and Genji were my favorite back when I played. Havent played since the original characters/maps. Any of the new characters decent to play with?

Reaper is a brawler now, all damage heals you simultaneously. He is a beast.
Reinhardt's hammer is still glitched
And every level 1-15 always insists on playing Genji because they think they're gamer-gods or they are a ninja :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
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Rebuying the game on Xboxone now bc of this.

Sorry everybody else for turning this into a gaming thread :)

Well it IS AMA.
Grab it on the PS4 rather than XB1, theres a larger base. XB1 takes terribly long to find matches. Ill do QuickPlay with you after CK.
 
Hello,
I applied orthopedics and didn't match, so I ended up scrambling into a family medicine program as a rash decision.

Currently, I'm one month into intern year on the emergency medicine service and I realize now that I would much rather be doing em then outpatient family medicine. It has all the acute trauma care that I enjoyed about orthopedics and the fast pace that I just generally enjoy. How to program directors look at graduates looking to reapply through Eras? I fully realize I would have to repeat my intern year, no problem with that. However given my current contract with my hospital I can't do any out rotations to get SLOEs. How would that be handled? Would I even have a chance anywhere?
 
Hello,
I applied orthopedics and didn't match, so I ended up scrambling into a family medicine program as a rash decision.

Currently, I'm one month into intern year on the emergency medicine service and I realize now that I would much rather be doing em then outpatient family medicine. It has all the acute trauma care that I enjoyed about orthopedics and the fast pace that I just generally enjoy. How to program directors look at graduates looking to reapply through Eras? I fully realize I would have to repeat my intern year, no problem with that. However given my current contract with my hospital I can't do any out rotations to get SLOEs. How would that be handled? Would I even have a chance anywhere?

I honestly don't know the data on something like this. Conventional wisdom is, its hard to match into EM without EM rotations, SLOEs, etc. Yet people do switch specialties sometimes. Is there an EM program where you are at? One close by geographically? Your best bet when switching residency specialties is usually if there is a local program that has experience with you.
 
Reaper is a brawler now, all damage heals you simultaneously. He is a beast.
Reinhardt's hammer is still glitched
And every level 1-15 always insists on playing Genji because they think they're gamer-gods or they are a ninja :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Reaper alone can tear up any decent team comp. Especially since I play tanks mostly so I have a small hatred for reaper.

Sent from my SM-G386T using SDN mobile
 
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