Echo boards...

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wire

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Uh you think they would have actually asked something about how we use echo as cardiologists and not sonographers/physicists. What a bs exam.

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It was bad...really bad... it will be a miracle if i pass.
For those wanting to take it next year, read ultrasound physics from some standard book. Klein's book was good for clinical stuff.
 
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I completely agree with all of the above. There was a lot of physics on the test, and it was not that well covered in Klein's book, or the Mayo Board Review, or the ASCeXam practice questions that are available after dishing out $200!
 
I agree. I thought in general was a very difficult test. I thought a lot of the questions were not worded/explained very well or unclear about what they were going for. For the physics section I thought Dr. Edelman's lecture packet from ASE was awesome.
 
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Took the exam yesterday and also agree that was a very heavy physics exam- unfairly so.
Lots of topics not covered in the above review material.

ANYONE KNOW IF THIS EXAM IS BASED ON A CURVE FOR PASS FAIL? OR IS IT BASED ON NUMBER OF QUESTIONS YOU GET CORRECT?
 
Took the exam yesterday and also agree that was a very heavy physics exam- unfairly so.
Lots of topics not covered in the above review material.

ANYONE KNOW IF THIS EXAM IS BASED ON A CURVE FOR PASS FAIL? OR IS IT BASED ON NUMBER OF QUESTIONS YOU GET CORRECT?

Not sure if there is a curve, but a fellow who took the examination a couple years to a year ago secured 55%, and passed the test.
 
SRS question.

What purpose do the echo boards serve you guys? Are you not allowed to read and bill without passing them? Seems a little ridiculous frankly...do you also have to pass EKG boards and beta blocker boards?

Do the radiologists have to pass separate MRI, CT, XR and US boards?

Seems like another case of ABIM going bats*** crazy.
 
SRS question.

What purpose do the echo boards serve you guys? Are you not allowed to read and bill without passing them? Seems a little ridiculous frankly...do you also have to pass EKG boards and beta blocker boards?

Do the radiologists have to pass separate MRI, CT, XR and US boards?

Seems like another case of ABIM going bats*** crazy.

You don't have to pass echo boards to read and bill, but some hospitals and practices prefer those who are echo boarded to read their echos (including my center). Passing does connote a certain level of expertise. The ASE writes the echo boards, not ABIM.

Radiology boards, from what I hear, are much harder than echo boards, and even more heavy on physics. I don't envy radiologists.

As for EKG boards, EKG proficiency is covered by the ABIM CV medicine exam. Beta blocker proficiency is assessed by the Advanced Heart Failure/Transplant exam.

p diddy
 
Agree with most the above. Hardest certification exam I have ever taken. Block 1 was just impossible. The last clinical section was not bad, IMHO, with facile calculations. Too many esoteric questions not covered in adult practice or in the board review, and too many questions in which the question stem deliberately held back on key information that would be freely available in the real world (was this zoomed in clip TTE or TEE?, sector angle could be widened, more views would be available etc.). I do not expect to pass...

Gutonc: the writing is on the wall; a piece of paper will soon be a prerequisite to bill for your read. I think that's why most people are taking the test.
 
Wow! is all I can say. Not looking forward to retaking it next year after Monday. I definitely have a sinking feeling on my chest
 
Agreed. Walked out with an awful feeling like I had no idea what happened to me during the last 5 hours. Depressing.
 
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Yeah, obviously can't talk specifics, but I feel like I was comfortable with maybe 20-30% after doing the Mayo course and doing Klein's question book twice and getting 70-80%.
 
Yeah, obviously can't talk specifics, but I feel like I was comfortable with maybe 20-30% after doing the Mayo course and doing Klein's question book twice and getting 70-80%.
I think we're the same person. Word-for-word, I was almost going to write what you did. This is not false humility either--it was really that bad for me. I went in knowing this stuff backwards and forwards, inside and out, and for around 70% of the ASE exam I either had no clue what they were asking, I felt there were two correct answers depending on how you interpret the question, or I had absolutely no clue where to start. I also had major time management issues on one block (7 minutes to answer the last 11 questions).
 
I think we're the same person. Word-for-word, I was almost going to write what you did. This is not false humility either--it was really that bad for me. I went in knowing this stuff backwards and forwards, inside and out, and for around 70% of the ASE exam I either had no clue what they were asking, I felt there were two correct answers depending on how you interpret the question, or I had absolutely no clue where to start. I also had major time management issues on one block (7 minutes to answer the last 11 questions).

Cornell IM; I completely agree with you. I had read Klein's book several times, in addition to watching the Mayo videos at least 2 times, and solving the ASCeXam questions twice (both blocks). I thought I had this down cold, but the feeling of awkwardness continues to persist! What a depressing examination experience! And I agree with the time management issue. I had to rethink the options on my "flagged" questions, and did not have the time to go back to them in third block. I "marked" or "flagged" at least 15 items per block for the first 3 blocks; the last block, I thought, was easy, and actually did not need 90 minutes!
 
Getting 55% correct seems low, Can anyone confirm this? I was thinking 65-70% of questions correct will get you a passing score...
 
Also agree, test was hard, esoteric, impractical. I used ASE review course, Mayo echo course, Klein Textbook and pegasus questions to study. Probably the highest yield study material was Sid Edelman physics handout. Overall, I walked out ticked off. I am not sure what I could've studied better...I don't think you could answer some of the questions even if you had the Feigenbaum text open while taking the test.
 
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Agree with most the above. Hardest certification exam I have ever taken. Block 1 was just impossible. The last clinical section was not bad, IMHO, with facile calculations. Too many esoteric questions not covered in adult practice or in the board review, and too many questions in which the question stem deliberately held back on key information that would be freely available in the real world (was this zoomed in clip TTE or TEE?, sector angle could be widened, more views would be available etc.). I do not expect to pass...

Gutonc: the writing is on the wall; a piece of paper will soon be a prerequisite to bill for your read. I think that's why most people are taking the test.


Challenging test for sure. I believe there will be some requirements in the years to come for attending cardiologists to have passed the NBE exam to bill. In any case, I think it's good to have on your CV that you passed.

It is a really hard exam.

Here is what I recommend:

1. Practice reading lots of echocardiograms
2. Read and know well Pai, Echo Board Review
3. EchoBoardStudy.Com - practice questions
 
This document states the pass rate is set at 68.5% questions correct. This info is a little old but that's probably why only 72% of people pass it. I thought the first block was so hard I almost laughed. Ridiculous!

http://www.onlinejase.com/article/S0894-7317(01)55987-8/pdf

So I wrote to Dr. Weyman at the MGH, the first author of the paper you have referenced here, and that is what he had to say to the "% correct questions for passing:"

"The percent correct is reset each year to correct to variation in the difficulty of the questions. The percent passing has improved over time hopefully because fellows are better trained."
 
SRS question.

What purpose do the echo boards serve you guys? Are you not allowed to read and bill without passing them? Seems a little ridiculous frankly...do you also have to pass EKG boards and beta blocker boards?

Do the radiologists have to pass separate MRI, CT, XR and US boards?

Seems like another case of ABIM going bats*** crazy.
I have not heard of too many places requiring echo boards to read echos. It's all hospital dependent. The credentialing committee makes the rules.
 
I have not heard of too many places requiring echo boards to read echos. It's all hospital dependent. The credentialing committee makes the rules.
Right...but the credentialing committee is made up of assh***s like me...PP oncologists, pediatricians, pathologists and endocrinologists with too much time on our hands and a lingering desire to pretend we're "academics". So the mere presence of a board cert (however irrelevant) will often lead committees to require them.

Hence my initial question. Echo is part and parcel of the practice of a cardiologist. It's as if I had to pass a "bone marrow biopsy" board or the GI guys had to pass a separate colonoscopy board in order to do our jobs.
 
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I almost had a heart attack today when I got the email from NBE today before I opened it and read it, lol
 
Right...but the credentialing committee is made up of assh***s like me...PP oncologists, pediatricians, pathologists and endocrinologists with too much time on our hands and a lingering desire to pretend we're "academics". So the mere presence of a board cert (however irrelevant) will often lead committees to require them.

Hence my initial question. Echo is part and parcel of the practice of a cardiologist. It's as if I had to pass a "bone marrow biopsy" board or the GI guys had to pass a separate colonoscopy board in order to do our jobs.

Well, we don't really have to pass them to do our jobs. I haven't seen echo boards listed as a requirement for many job offers at all. Most echos are done in the office anyway, and you don't even have to be a cardiologist to bill or perform echos from your office, since there's nobody to grant privileges except yourself. And, I agree that it's a superfluous exam. There are rare cases where I'd think it would be a good idea to take the echo boards (I'm not an imaging guy though), for instance, if they are at some big academic center and want to distinguish themselves, or want to run an echo lab, or have some personal interest in something like congenital etc.
 
shouldn't we be getting our results soon? :confused:
 
Yeah. I am getting a little nervous myself. I have this nagging feeling though.
 
Yeah, quite anxious. Are we to get first notification by email, snail mail, or what?
 
Yeah, quite anxious. Are we to get first notification by email, snail mail, or what?

I just called the NBE. The results will be out within 1 week (either later this week or early next week). I think the notification will be sent via email. Good luck everyone! It is nerve-racking/wracking indeed!
 
If you go on nbe website and verify status it has updated. Mine is now on. Passed.
 
passed too. wow - never felt so bad after an exam as i did with this exam
 
I still haven't gotten the official email, but it sure feels great to see the words testamur on the website. That was a brutal test that I wasn't looking forward to retaking.
 
I passed it too! Agree that it was a brutal examination! Thanks for the tip gentlemen!
 
Passed. It was a very hard test.

Just some general advice for future takers -
Don't rely on the review courses. Read an echo textbook like Feigenbaum's cover-to-cover to see all the zebras and obscure facts. Get used to TEE and TTE views at odd angles. Know your physics cold.
 
Passed! Wow 33% fail rate
 
I'm gonna weigh in on my opinion for future preparation as well (it is different than the poster above). Just as background I took the exam at the beginning of my third year of fellowship. I had done 3 months of echo at my home program (I had read about 400 TTE and 75 TEE by the time I took the test). We do not have an echo didactic curriculum, but do have echo case conference once/month.

The sources I recommend:
1. Mayo Echo videos
2. Klein question book
3. Practice tests you can buy from NBE website (300 questions)
4. Handouts on congenital and physics (Edelman) from the ASE course

I did not read any book cover to cover. I did read a few chapters (Systolic function, diastolic function, Valves, TEE) of Otto during my first year but I don't think it was particularly helpful. I did feel that the Klein question explanations explained concepts very well.

When I walked out of the test, I thought there was a 50-50 chance I passed, but ended up scoring in the 90th percentile. My highest two sections were physics and congenital, probably due to the handouts I mentioned above (which were brief and had great explanations -- I felt like the questions from these 2 sections were pulled directly from these handouts). I think the key to passing this test is doing a few sources but knowing them well.
 
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In addition to the above mentioned resources, I also bought EchoSAP from ACC which was a total waste of time and money. Physics in EchoSAP is non-existent and other sections are not very useful as well. Do not buy EchoSAP and save money!
 
I actually did use the resources that boyz of 4d posted above - the Mayo DVDs, Klein question book, and NBE questions. I also used the online ASE review course, which was better orchestrated, more concise, more board relevant, and cheaper than the Mayo course.

I realized later I could've saved a lot of money and time by just reading Feigenbaum and studying the accompanying echos. The answers were all there.

As far as other resources, it seems that studying the ASE congenital and physics (Edelman) handouts provided a nice advantage. Obtain those if you can.
 
Can anyone tell me where can I find the edelman physics and congenital hand outs please..thanks
 
I agree. I thought in general was a very difficult test. I thought a lot of the questions were not worded/explained very well or unclear about what they were going for. For the physics section I thought Dr. Edelman's lecture packet from ASE was awesome.
Boyz of 4d or any other posters who used Edelman's lecture packet - can you pls tell me how I can get my hands on this? I purchased the ASE lecture series online but his lectures are not on there. TIA!
 
Also agree, test was hard, esoteric, impractical. I used ASE review course, Mayo echo course, Klein Textbook and pegasus questions to study. Probably the highest yield study material was Sid Edelman physics handout. Overall, I walked out ticked off. I am not sure what I could've studied better...I don't think you could answer some of the questions even if you had the Feigenbaum text open while taking the test.
Misterpeppers can you pls tell me how I can get the Edelman' s handouts? I couldn't attend the course but did buy the online review course lectures. His isn't in there though. TIA
 
I actually did use the resources that boyz of 4d posted above - the Mayo DVDs, Klein question book, and NBE questions. I also used the online ASE review course, which was better orchestrated, more concise, more board relevant, and cheaper than the Mayo course.

I realized later I could've saved a lot of money and time by just reading Feigenbaum and studying the accompanying echos. The answers were all there.

As far as other resources, it seems that studying the ASE congenital and physics (Edelman) handouts provided a nice advantage. Obtain those if you can.
 
This exam really needs a lot of study! How can I obtain the Physics and congenital notes( from the ASE review course)?
If anyone can kindly post it to me, ( my email: [email protected])
 
Just took the Echo Boards 2017, I actually felt like I over studied. I went to the Mayo echo course and read the edleman and congenital handouts, and I reviewed the Feigenbaum M mode paper and I did pretty much all the sorrel question book and the NBE online questions. I did a couple chapters of klein, but by no means the whole thing. I also did the Board vitals (I do not recommend this q bank for board study, most of the questions were not helpful and they appeared to be copied from the Pai book I believe). I have a fairly good physics background, and I think this helped a lot. I studied with some of my co fellows and I think a lot of trouble people run into is with this exam is basic physics concepts. I would know cold the ultrasound definitions of things like wavelength, frequency, attenuation, nyquist limit, doppler shift, resolution, etc and what happens when you change different parameters on the echo machine. It is all in the edleman chapter, but reading that is really like reading a phone book or a dictionary, especially if you are not familiar with these concepts

On the exam most of the questions are very short one line and pick the answer. Also, I am somebody who normally runs out of time ( I have felt pressed for the for every board exam I have taken) but even though it is only 60 min for 50 questions I felt like it was ample. If I needed to study for this again I would watch the mayo videos, especially physics and diastology and do the sorrel questions.
 
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I prepared for the ascexam for a good 3 months. I initially began with board vitals qbank which is around 500qs. After finishing it only then did i discover that its not recommended. But i found it useful. After that i purchased the 300 question test from NBE. Those were good. Then i took on kleins book. Loved it. Did that twice. And finally studied edelmans physics handouts. I passed with a 70%. I would say studying klein and edelman handouts realy well would get you a pass. I didnt have time for the online courses of mayo/ase which are quite expensive. So i guess i saved some money. But to be honest its not worth the stress or the cash saved. 3 months preparation is exhaustive. Take a good 6 months to a year to prepare. Get a proper introduction to your studies with an online course such as mayo or a textbook. Then get into the qbanks. Klein is the best. Good luck.

P.S I highly recommend for your experience and practice a 5 to 7 day course. A one on one course in the echosim lab with dr Neil Green in Phoenix Arizona. Amazingly helpful course. Hands on skills TTE/TEE. And he has a software where you can pracrice strain, 3D, and much more.
 
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