Early PT vs "Standard Care"

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DrCommonSense

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Early Physical Therapy vs Usual Care for Recent-Onset Low Back Pain

Early usage of PT is no better for basic LBP than just doing nothing basically according to JAMA

JAMA article concludes basically there is "clinically insignificant benefit" for usage of PT early in the disease process?

WTF do we offer?

NSAIDs, Opioids, PT, etc have "no evidence"

Should I prescribe Thai Chi?

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Early Physical Therapy vs Usual Care for Recent-Onset Low Back Pain

Early usage of PT is no better for basic LBP than just doing nothing basically according to JAMA

JAMA article concludes basically there is "clinically insignificant benefit" for usage of PT early in the disease process?

WTF do we offer?

NSAIDs, Opioids, PT, etc have "no evidence"

Should I prescribe Thai Chi?
From the study:
"To evaluate whether early physical therapy (manipulation and exercise) is more effective than usual care in improving disability for patients with LBP fitting a decision rule."

The decision rule that the authors are referring to is the lumbar manipulation clinical prediction rule, which was an attempt to identify variables that would predict those patient who were likely to benefit from lumbar spinal manipulation (no symptoms distal to knee, duration of pain less than 16 days).

It is possible (and I think likely) that these variables also correlate strongly with increased likelihood for rapid and spontaneous resolution of their symptoms.
 
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Maybe insurance will stop requiring 12 weeks of PT prior to letting me get my patients better? Haha. Of course not. The PT isnt to get anyone better just to make it harder to access medical care.
 
Stop reading it rots your brain

The more I read from these "medical journals", the more I want to prescribe Thai Chai, Yoga, Spirit Cooking and Tumeric to solve all of the ills of the world.

I am going to write on a prescription pad to prescribe DRX 9000 with Chiropractics and call it a day.

Never going to use PT again.
 
Maybe insurance will stop requiring 12 weeks of PT prior to letting me get my patients better? Haha. Of course not. The PT isnt to get anyone better just to make it harder to access medical care.

Opioid epidemic

*mic drop*
 
Opioid epidemic

*mic drop*

There no need for PTs, this has already been proven since at least 1999 by the NEJM under the auspices of the honorable Deyo:

I have linked the article in another thread. We can just give them an educational packet with some yoga and thai chi and call it a day.

"We found no significant differences among the groups in recurrences of back pain or in the use of services during follow-up. This casts doubt on the ability of the self-care–oriented McKenzie physical therapy to reduce the utilization of services. The overall costs of care for back pain were lowest in the booklet group, so there was no evidence that the higher initial costs of the physical treatments were offset by later savings.

The relative costs of chiropractic and McKenzie treatments could differ in other settings. The number of visits was left to the discretion of providers (who were aware that both costs and benefits would be measured), and the smaller number of visits to McKenzie therapists (HMO employees) than to chiropractors (in private practice) may reflect differences in practice styles.15?
 
I just give 'em turmeric at check in, kind of getting to know you present. Then when they say "you're not going to give me anything for pain, doctor?" I just smile and say "I already gave you the best treatment for pain! 5 stars on Yelp, baby!" and then I do jazz hands and dash out of the room.
 
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its getting a little redundant having to actually read these articles for you.

1. early PT consisted of 4 PT sessions within the first 3 weeks of the onset of back pain. that's not a lot...

2. just as we cannot tout that an ESI will benefit a patient 1 year out (and we commonly tell them 3 months duration), this study could not tout that these 4 PT sessions helped anything longer than 4 weeks out.

But there were clinically significant improvements in functionality.
Early physical therapy showed significant improvement compared with usual care for the primary outcome (ODI score) at 3 months (mean difference, −3.2 [95% CI, −5.9 to −0.47], P = .02). The ODI score also showed significantly greater improvement for early physical therapy after 4 weeks but not after 1 year (Table 2). Some secondary outcomes showed statistically significant differences favoring greater improvement in the early physical therapy group particularly at 3 months. These included PCS score, fear-avoidance beliefs for work, and patients’ self-rating of success and self-rating of their overall health (Table 2 and Table 3). However, many secondary outcomes showed no statistically significant benefit for early physical therapy at 3 months and/or other follow-up time points (Table 2 and Table 3).

oh wait, we dont worry about functionality? or maybe not...
 
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The more I read from these "medical journals", the more I want to prescribe Thai Chai, Yoga, Spirit Cooking and Tumeric to solve all of the ills of the world.

I am going to write on a prescription pad to prescribe DRX 9000 with Chiropractics and call it a day.

Never going to use PT again.
Do you tend to see a lot of the patients represented in this study?

Around where I practice the majority of patients with recent onset LBP go to a PCP or occasionally ortho.
 
There no need for PTs, this has already been proven since at least 1999 by the NEJM under the auspices of the honorable Deyo:

I have linked the article in another thread. We can just give them an educational packet with some yoga and thai chi and call it a day.

"We found no significant differences among the groups in recurrences of back pain or in the use of services during follow-up. This casts doubt on the ability of the self-care–oriented McKenzie physical therapy to reduce the utilization of services. The overall costs of care for back pain were lowest in the booklet group, so there was no evidence that the higher initial costs of the physical treatments were offset by later savings.

The relative costs of chiropractic and McKenzie treatments could differ in other settings. The number of visits was left to the discretion of providers (who were aware that both costs and benefits would be measured), and the smaller number of visits to McKenzie therapists (HMO employees) than to chiropractors (in private practice) may reflect differences in practice styles.15?

Nvm. It's not even worth it
 
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its getting a little redundant having to actually read these articles for you.

1. early PT consisted of 4 PT sessions within the first 3 weeks of the onset of back pain. that's not a lot...

2. just as we cannot tout that an ESI will benefit a patient 1 year out (and we commonly tell them 3 months duration), this study could not tout that these 4 PT sessions helped anything longer than 4 weeks out.

But there were clinically significant improvements in functionality.


oh wait, we dont worry about functionality? or maybe not...

Read JAMA's conclusions. They clearly have determined it to be "clinically" insufficient benefit.

Are you arguing with your medical superiors? These dudes are EXPERTs at this type of analysis
 
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Do you tend to see a lot of the patients represented in this study?

Around where I practice the majority of patients with recent onset LBP go to a PCP or occasionally ortho.

Yes plenty of them.

I have been prescribing PT as much as possible.

I strongly believe in "multidisciplinary" pain medicine where there is a strong emphasis on rehab in addition to other interventional modalities. Its like a three legged stool that requires all three methods for a good number of patients.

However, according to Deyo/Chou, I should only prescribe Thai Chi, Yoga (especially for my >60 year old patients who are clearly very mobile to do that), Spirit Cooking, Tumeric and DRX9000.

Get rid of PT, injections, medications, etc.

Cost effective medicine at its finest.
 
Nvm. It's not even worth it

So Deyo's NEJM article doesn't interest you? The dude is a top level researcher at OHSU that specializes in "efficient" care delivery that is "cost effective".

He has deemed a pamphlet superior to PT in person.
 
So Deyo's NEJM article doesn't interest you? The dude is a top level researcher at OHSU that specializes in "efficient" care delivery that is "cost effective".

He has deemed a pamphlet superior to PT in person.

No, what doesn't interest me is someone who's response to a comment that literally references a public health crisis due to mass overutilization of pain Rx, is to come back and say physical therapy has no use in the healthcare environment in the U.S. Even if the physical therapy were pure placebo for subjective pain scores, it still would beat mortality from overprescription.
This is not a comment on how you or close colleagues practice though and things like press ganey lead to defensive Rx sometimes.

Pain is also only one portion of patient needs that physical therapy addresses. Especially now as subfields exist.

That being said, my initial comment was snarky so I can understand an attack in response.

Before the thread becomes inflammatory and mods have to step in, I will make my way out. Have a good one
 
No, what doesn't interest me is someone who's response to a comment that literally references a public health crisis due to mass overutilization of pain Rx, is to come back and say physical therapy has no use in the healthcare environment in the U.S. Even if the physical therapy were pure placebo for subjective pain scores, it still would beat mortality from overprescription.
This is not a comment on how you or close colleagues practice though and things like press ganey lead to defensive Rx sometimes.

Pain is also only one portion of patient needs that physical therapy addresses. Especially now as subfields exist.

That being said, my initial comment was snarky so I can understand an attack in response.

Before the thread becomes inflammatory and mods have to step in, I will make my way out. Have a good one

Why you getting mad at me? I'm just reporting what Richard Deyo the efficiency expert wrote In the New England journal of medicine.

He is a board certified physician in internal medicine who is an "efficiency" expert in Oregon.

Are you questioning your superior's knowledge of the subject?
 
From the chronic pain standpoint, I find PT helps about 1 out of 10 patients. The others state it was a waste of time. For acute pain- I don't know- I don't see acute pain patients very often.
 
From the chronic pain standpoint, I find PT helps about 1 out of 10 patients. The others state it was a waste of time. For acute pain- I don't know- I don't see acute pain patients very often.

Yeah thats true.

I don't really see PT by itself working for a large segment of patients. If PT/Chiropractic did it, we would literally get zero patients.

However, I still believe a good PT program taught IN PERSON in conjunction with a good physician is the best "conservative" treatment option.

Don't see a pamphlet working.
 
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You seem to be angry that Deyo stated that PT/Chiropractic is "not helpful" financially compared to a simple pamphlet that shows a patient exercises.

Why is that?

NO I'm annoyed that an old physician who is corrected by other attendings on here about how to read literature keeps badgering me about a response that he/she wrote as a red herring to my public health crisis comment

I could care less about a macro level healthcare economics researcher who's paper is a reference to almost twenty years ago in reference to healthcare utilization and costs.
From a financial standpoint the pain field and spine make a killing off of some pretty horrifying patient outcomes. Months of therapy is actually less than an MRI which not even change treatment or correlate with pain symptoms by the way.

Also physical therapy is exercise based and has science based on neuroplasticity. Pain is only one patient need it is used for.

Chiro is also focused on a healing model but is branded by spinal manipulation which has actually fallen out of evidence based practice. They are different although there are practice overlaps for manual therapy which usually helps form/function or gives an acute alleviation of back pain

I preferred to not engage in this discussion more due to mods taking down anything inflammatory yet you continue to tag me.

You're incredibly annoying
 
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If I could eliminate secondary gain in some form from my patient population, I would be able to identify whether or not patients genuinely feel as though they benefit from PT. I gotta be honest though, a lot of the therapists in my area are not really enamored to treat spine mainly because it's confounding and many times does not get better or doesn't seem to get better. Personally I think the 4-6 week mandate for PT prior to imaging is just total industry created bs and a weak attempt at insurance companies to control cost. It would be interesting if there was an actual cost analysis on PT mandate followed by MRI followed by spine intervention vs home exercise , nsaids followed by MRI and spine intervention. What if we got rid of all the lawyers and stopped ordering MRI prior to procedure and just treated based on clinical judgement, history and physical exam?
 
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So Deyo's NEJM article doesn't interest you? The dude is a top level researcher at OHSU that specializes in "efficient" care delivery that is "cost effective".

He has deemed a pamphlet superior to PT in person.
Well, technically, he deemed a booklet more cost effective than the McKenzie Method for treatment of patients with LBP.
 
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I have always suspected that the PT requirement is just there as a roadblock, with the expectation that a hefty percentage of back pain patients will drop out of PT and not follow up, thus not costing anything.
 
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NO I'm annoyed that an old physician who is corrected by other attendings on here about how to read literature keeps badgering me about a response that he/she wrote as a red herring to my public health crisis comment

I could care less about a macro level healthcare economics researcher who's paper is a reference to almost twenty years ago in reference to healthcare utilization and costs.
From a financial standpoint the pain field and spine make a killing off of some pretty horrifying patient outcomes. Months of therapy is actually less than an MRI which not even change treatment or correlate with pain symptoms by the way.

Also physical therapy is exercise based and has science based on neuroplasticity. Pain is only one patient need it is used for.

Chiro is also focused on a healing model but is branded by spinal manipulation which has actually fallen out of evidence based practice. They are different although there are practice overlaps for manual therapy which usually helps form/function or gives an acute alleviation of back pain

I preferred to not engage in this discussion more due to mods taking down anything inflammatory yet you continue to tag me.

You're incredibly annoying

Old? Guess 30s is old these days lol

Please dont engage then if you can't handle a mature conversation without being so easily "annoyed". We aren't in kindergarten.

I didn't say I agree with Deyo but I am showing the absurd levels this stuff can be taken to.
 
Old? Guess 30s is old these days lol

Please dont engage then if you can't handle a mature conversation without being so easily "annoyed". We aren't in kindergarten.

I didn't say I agree with Deyo but I am showing the absurd levels this stuff can be taken to.

firebombing the board with 9 new threads about similar topics within about a week isnt exactly "mature".

it is very clear that you are making and responding to posts in order to be purposely provocative so as to elicit an emotional response. ie: you are looking for a fight. again, not "mature".

a mature conversation involves acknowledging salient points by others, even if you disagree with their content.
 
From the chronic pain standpoint, I find PT helps about 1 out of 10 patients. The others state it was a waste of time. For acute pain- I don't know- I don't see acute pain patients very often.
That was my point with my question above - most IPM docs in my area don't seem to be involved in the care of the patient with acute LBP.
 
If I could eliminate secondary gain in some form from my patient population, I would be able to identify whether or not patients genuinely feel as though they benefit from PT. I gotta be honest though, a lot of the therapists in my area are not really enamored to treat spine mainly because it's confounding and many times does not get better or doesn't seem to get better. Personally I think the 4-6 week mandate for PT prior to imaging is just total industry created bs and a weak attempt at insurance companies to control cost. It would be interesting if there was an actual cost analysis on PT mandate followed by MRI followed by spine intervention vs home exercise , nsaids followed by MRI and spine intervention. What if we got rid of all the lawyers and stopped ordering MRI prior to procedure and just treated based on clinical judgement, history and physical exam?
There has been analysis of early exposure to PT and its impact on downstream costs:

Implications of early and guideline adherent physical therapy for low back pain on utilization and costs
 
firebombing the board with 9 new threads about similar topics within about a week isnt exactly "mature".

it is very clear that you are making and responding to posts in order to be purposely provocative so as to elicit an emotional response. ie: you are looking for a fight. again, not "mature".

a mature conversation involves acknowledging salient points by others, even if you disagree with their content.

9 topics that had documentation from various medical journals including BMJ, NEJM and JAMA. If I was just posting random statements with zero citation of sources, then you would have a valid complaint.

What "salient" points haven't I addressed?

All she basically said was Deyo's article from NEJM made her "annoyed".

I didn't say I'm convinced Deyo's perspective is accurate either but that is some of the research he strongly stood by in the NEJM
 
Interesting how the conclusions are literally the OPPOSITE of the JAMA article I linked to.

Guess these "studies" are dependent on who does them?

The lead author of the JAMA article is the second author on the second study I posted.
 
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The lead author of the JAMA article is the second author on the second study I posted.

Here is another recent journal article from 2017 that also concludes "early PT offers no benefit":

http://www.thespinejournalonline.com/article/S1529-9430(16)31013-0/abstract

This is directly from the Spine surgeons own medical journal

They have shown that early PT offers zero benefit in terms of decreased cost down the road for subsequent spine care.

Also, the study is done by plenty of "efficiency" internal medicine docs in there as well with a PT.
 
A lot of reasons PT can "fail" - a lot of PTs don't like or aren't trained well to work with chronic pain. They tell patients to "back off" if it hurts. Patient expectations are usually out of wack too. Focus from outset should be on function and behavioral goals, not pain relief, which will take longer than a couple sessions. Some patients don't want to do the work or take responsibility for managing their condition. "Failed" PT is usually due to some of these factors and can be corrected. I think most people here agree that some type of exercise, it really doesn't matter what kind, is best long term treatment


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Here is another recent journal article from 2017 that also concludes "early PT offers no benefit":

http://www.thespinejournalonline.com/article/S1529-9430(16)31013-0/abstract

This is directly from the Spine surgeons own medical journal

They have shown that early PT offers zero benefit in terms of decreased cost down the road for subsequent spine care.

Also, the study is done by plenty of "efficiency" internal medicine docs in there as well with a PT.

If you actually read the study you'll see that the first p value is greater than .45.....that's horrifyingly poor and cause for almost immediate dismissal yet you've drawn a broad conclusion from this.

As for the other values in the study, PT RVUs being higher for the early PT group is obvious.....it's because they are being billed for physical therapy services originally. If a group of patients receives spine procedure as a first line then their RVUs from there will be billed at a higher frequency obviously.....and subsequently have more spine RVUs. As for extra imaging, that would be due to physicians ordering imaging following physical therapy tx not alleviating the patient complaints.

That could be a money grab for them or it may be to rule out other pathology....but it is actually out of therapist control since legal ordering is only present in one state. In fact, most imaging is ordered by an ortho, EP, PCP or midlevel contact point (many times never even followed up with or read by the initial biller if primary care) and makes its way onto therapist emr so they can see where decreased joint space in a shoulder might be from mild OA and can change closed chain exercises accordingly.....to not exacerbate symptoms of bone on bone). So the imaging comment is actually irrelevant as "physical therapist waste" since therapists don't generate revenue from it.

Also, the patient population is only over 65......
.....but you've drawn a sweeping generalization over the entire therapy industry here unless you were only referencing low back pain for the demographic 65 and up for spine orthopaedics. Read out of context from the article, "early PT offers no benefit" makes it seem as if it pertains to the entire field.

The conclusion of the article is actually fine in referencing the p values and three statements....but when actually analyzing the data, critiquing the p values, and reading through what "increased imaging" as well as "RVU generation" is.....this piece isn't really impressive and value would only really be placed in using it as a marketing technique for people who don't know how to evaluate literature.....or you just leave things as is and keep them as patient preference without stratify ing one practice pattern.

You just commented in a new thread by the way on an article with Chou and Deyo offering spinal manip as a possible Ortho solution for "back ache" which actually does work acutely if the pain is elicited from the facet joints, although it will return if posture is not addressed.......yet on here referenced a 99 article trying to steer argument.

Your article posting and literature analysis with associated conclusions, quite frankly.....are embarrassing for an attending in practice for a while. I hope you aren't associated with a residency program or mentorship in any way.
 
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If you actually read the study you'll see that the first p value is greater than .45.....that's horrifyingly poor and cause for almost immediate dismissal yet you've drawn a broad conclusion from this.

As for the other values in the study, PT RVUs being higher for the early PT group is obvious.....it's because they are being billed for physical therapy services originally. If a group of patients receives spine procedure as a first line then their RVUs from there will be billed at a higher frequency obviously.....and subsequently have more spine RVUs. As for extra imaging, that would be due to physicians ordering imaging following physical therapy tx not alleviating the patient complaints.

That could be a money grab for them or it may be to rule out other pathology....but it is actually out of therapist control since legal ordering is only present in one state. In fact, most imaging is ordered by an ortho, EP, PCP or midlevel contact point (many times never even followed up with or read by the initial biller if primary care) and makes its way onto therapist emr so they can see where decreased joint space in a shoulder might be from mild OA and can change closed chain exercises accordingly.....to not exacerbate symptoms of bone on bone). So the imaging comment is actually irrelevant as "physical therapist waste" since therapists don't generate revenue from it.

Also, the patient population is only over 65......
.....but you've drawn a sweeping generalization over the entire therapy industry here unless you were only referencing low back pain for the demographic 65 and up for spine orthopaedics. Read out of context from the article, "early PT offers no benefit" makes it seem as if it pertains to the entire field.

The conclusion of the article is actually fine in referencing the p values and three statements....but when actually analyzing the data, critiquing the p values, and reading through what "increased imaging" as well as "RVU generation" is.....this piece isn't really impressive and value would only really be placed in using it as a marketing technique for people who don't know how to evaluate literature.....or you just leave things as is and keep them as patient preference without stratify ing one practice pattern.

You just commented in a new thread by the way on an article with Chou and Deyo offering spinal manip as a possible Ortho solution for "back ache" which actually does work acutely if the pain is elicited from the facet joints, although it will return if posture is not addressed.......yet on here referenced a 99 article trying to steer argument.

Your article posting and literature analysis with associated conclusions, quite frankly.....are embarrassing for an attending in practice for a while. I hope you aren't associated with a residency program or mentorship in any way.

Deyo and Chou are all over the place in their analysis with "early PT" showing no benefit but "manipulation" somehow being "clinically significant" when showing a decrease in short term VAS scores by 1.

Your poor comprehension of my point is embarrassing considering you appear unable to understand that I was not particularly supportive of these clowns.

I can't understand WTF they are saying to be honest since they are *****s with zero clinical experience and just get paid off to do fake "meta analysis" findings that are inconsistent with each other.
 
Deyo and Chou are all over the place in their analysis with "early PT" showing no benefit but "manipulation" somehow being "clinically significant" when showing a decrease in short term VAS scores by 1.

Your poor comprehension of my point is embarrassing considering you appear unable to understand that I was not particularly supportive of these clowns.

I can't understand WTF they are saying to be honest since they are *****s with zero clinical experience and just get paid off to do fake "meta analysis" findings that are inconsistent with each other.

Then we can keep our opinions of each other to ourselves. I just wouldn't cite them in argument anymore

Have a good night
 
Then we can keep our opinions of each other to ourselves. I just wouldn't cite them in argument anymore

Have a good night

If you have been keeping up with my previous threads, I am not a big fan of Chou or Deyo. I am publishing their "metaanalysis" findings largely to show their ridiculous inconsistency in analysis and arbitrary endpoints to determine "clinical" significance.

Basically, if they support some modality of treatment, they will call it significant with a VAS benefit of 1 or less but if they don't like it for their own reasons, they will say its not "significant".

Its basically a joke.
 
Whatever you do, don't recommend or provide anything that doesn't have level-1 evidence behind it.
 
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