Does school matter for residency?

[depamr]

I read a thread this morning: https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/sgu-charter-foundation-program-vs-auc-ross-acceptance.1079246/

"By and large I don't think it makes a huge difference between Ross and SGU, but I am tangentially involved in applicant recruitment at my residency program now, and we don't consider applicants from other Caribbean schools really so take from that what you will. Again though this is just one data point at my own program, and this probably varies with geographic location, too. Programs in the NE are likely going to be more familiar with Caribbean schools in general."

"We had about 1,200 applications for 8-11 spots. I don't know how many interview offers we made or the stats on those applications yet as I'm not involved at that level, but we interviewed about 120, none of which were graduates from Caribbean schools other than SGU or Ross, and our program is friendly towards IMG's and FMG's."

One of the posts mentioned that they've only looked at SGU/Ross grads. I'm just wondering how accurate this is, and whether this is a pattern for a lot of residency programs? I'm debating between AUC and SGU and this would definitely affect my decision.

Hoping that someone can provide context for this?

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[Shinken]

School definitely matters. In our program, we never consider anyone from schools we've never heard of. Additionally, for those coming from Caribbean med schools, we only consider those whose applications are spotless (and I mean, spotless). They already have a huge strike against them by being Caribbean grads, we don't need any more risk by considering someone without a spotless record.

I won't discuss why they have a strike against them, this has been discussed numerous times in this forum (also refer to Goro's posts. Although not very diplomatic, he speaks the truth. Those who don't agree with him probably have never participated in a residency admissions committee).

 

[Skip Intro]

.... (also refer to Goro's posts. Although not very diplomatic, he speaks the truth. Those who don't agree with him probably have never participated in a residency admissions committee).

Well, Goro is a pre-clinical faculty instructor at a osteopathic medical school. So, apply the appropriate filters.

As for the rest of your assertion, I (in fact) have been on - and am currently affiliated with - a residency program and their review/appointment committee. There is no such thing as a residency "admissions committee". The way it works, since there seems to be just from this one sentence some misunderstanding, is that programs receive applications through ERAS. Those applications are filtered based on a host of criteria. Viable candidates are downloaded and reviewed by the program coordinator (first checkpoint) based on criteria that have been determined by the Program Director and Chairman. Once reviewed in more detail and, as you say, there are no red flags (you got that part right), an offer is made to invite that person for an interview. If you get an interview, you are now equalized in your chances.

This is similar to applying to medical school only in the rudimentary process. The Match equalizes everything else. It is not like a med school "adcom" therefore, who can pick-and-choose, offer conditional acceptance, waitlist, etc.

That said, school does matter. Schools that have a long track record of providing qualified and competent graduates into programs will consider applicants from those schools. Conversely, if they have had a bad experience, they will forego that school in the future. So, as I have said before innumerable times on this forum, look at the school's website and see both how many and where they have placed their grads over the past several years. If this aligns with your aspirations, this school is going to probably be a better pick and more likely to get you successfully to your destination.

-Skip

 

[the argus]

School definitely matters. In our program, we never consider anyone from schools we've never heard of. Additionally, for those coming from Caribbean med schools, we only consider those whose applications are spotless (and I mean, spotless). They already have a huge strike against them by being Caribbean grads, we don't need any more risk by considering someone without a spotless record.

I won't discuss why they have a strike against them, this has been discussed numerous times in this forum (also refer to Goro's posts. Although not very diplomatic, he speaks the truth. Those who don't agree with him probably have never participated in a residency admissions committee).

As Skip pointed out, you know who else has "never participated in a residency admissions committee?" @Goro. He's a non-physician PhD who teaches basic science at an osteopathic medical school. He has neither experience nor expertise in this arena. There are no doubt residency programs out there that think the way these guys do, but to present this as some blanket unwavering truth is laughable.

To the OP, there is no one size fits all answer to your question. It will depend on the program. Some programs will never consider a Caribbean grad, some will consider Caribbean grads from certain schools but not others, and some don't care what school you came from. Be wary of advice (such as that from @Goro or @Shinken above) that paints this issue as black or white. For instance, I'm at a university IM program and "the truth" that @Goro/@Shinken claim certainly doesn't apply to my program. I'd wager it also doesn't apply to the 40+ other IM programs that offered me interviews in the 2015 match season.

Overall there's no significant difference between the education received or post-grad residency opportunities between the big 3 (SGU, Ross, AUC) caribbean schools. Ross and SGU probably have the most name recognition because they are the biggest and have been around the longest. Pick the island you think you'd enjoy living on the most and run with it.

 

[the argus]

And to follow up and exemplify how ridiculous "the truth" is coming from @Goro/@Shinken, lets take a look at the NRMP data report for DO applicants. Table 1 on page 3, http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-US-Osteopathic-2016.pdf.

DOs had an 87% (503/577) match rate in IM, 88% (352/400) match rate in FM, and 77% (185/239) match rate in psych. If "the truth" as those posters claim was actually true, you would never see DO match rates this low with so many US-IMGs matching into these specialties. It just wouldn't happen if, as @Goro claims,

The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior...
Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.

 

[depamr]

In our program, we never consider anyone from schools we've never heard of. Additionally, for those coming from Caribbean med schools, we only consider those whose applications are spotless (and I mean, spotless). They already have a huge strike against them by being Caribbean grads, we don't need any more risk by considering someone without a spotless record.

I won't discuss why they have a strike against them, this has been discussed numerous times in this forum (also refer to Goro's posts. Although not very diplomatic, he speaks the truth. Those who don't agree with him probably have never participated in a residency admissions committee).

Does AUC count as a school that you've never heard of? Sorry, I'm a bit unfamiliar, what does spotless record mean - what are the strikes you're talking about (is it bad grades? being held back a semester? bad LoRs?)

Well, Goro is a pre-clinical faculty instructor at a osteopathic medical school. So, apply the appropriate filters.
Those applications are filtered based on a host of criteria. Viable candidates are downloaded and reviewed by the program coordinator (first checkpoint) based on criteria that have been determined by the Program Director and Chairman.
That said, school does matter. Schools that have a long track record of providing qualified and competent graduates into programs will consider applicants from those schools.
-Skip

Do you happen to know anything about AUC's track record? From my research so far, it seems really good, but I'm just wondering if you had anything else that I missed?

Overall, I'm just wondering if there's a candidate with identical stats (Step 1/2 scores, LoRs), would preference be given to an SGU grad over an AUC grad? If so, is this a pattern at a significant number of programs that it makes the extra cost of SGU worth it?

 

[depamr]

To the OP, there is no one size fits all answer to your question. It will depend on the program. Some programs will never consider a Caribbean grad, some will consider Caribbean grads from certain schools but not others, and some don't care what school you came from. Be wary of advice (such as that from @Goro or @Shinken above) that paints this issue as black or white. For instance, I'm at a university IM program and "the truth" that @Goro/@Shinken claim certainly doesn't apply to my program. I'd wager it also doesn't apply to the 40+ other IM programs that offered me interviews in the 2015 match season.

Overall there's no significant difference between the education received or post-grad residency opportunities between the big 3 (SGU, Ross, AUC) caribbean schools. Ross and SGU probably have the most name recognition because they are the biggest and have been around the longest. Pick the island you think you'd enjoy living on the most and run with it.

Thanks for your response Argus. What school did you attend? And it's very impressive that you got around 40+ interviews! What were your stats like?

 

[Shinken]

Does AUC count as a school that you've never heard of? Sorry, I'm a bit unfamiliar, what does spotless record mean - what are the strikes you're talking about (is it bad grades? being held back a semester? bad LoRs?)

Yes, AUC counts as a school we're not familiar with (we've heard of it, not familiar with it).

Spotless record means exactly what you mention, bad grades or less-than-stellar grades, low board scores or board failures, etc. We look for no blemishes in the record whatsoever and someone at least at the top of their class, otherwise our committee would never consider them. We have limited spots for interviews, not to mention the time and effort involved in the interview process. We don't want to interview anyone that can be a risk later on.

As for match records, we can go back and forth with this, I'm not interested in that. Obviously NRMP data refers only to the NRMP match. DOs also have their own match (NMS match). The overall match rate for DOs is close to 99% or so.

If you have further questions, please PM me, I'll be glad to answer your questions as they apply to our program only, as other programs might have different processes and policies.

 

[Skip Intro]

Do you happen to know anything about AUC's track record? From my research so far, it seems really good, but I'm just wondering if you had anything else that I missed?

Overall, I'm just wondering if there's a candidate with identical stats (Step 1/2 scores, LoRs), would preference be given to an SGU grad over an AUC grad? If so, is this a pattern at a significant number of programs that it makes the extra cost of SGU worth it?

I worked with a colleague at a prior employment who graduated from AUC when it was still on Montserrat. He was excellent. I also currently work with an AUC grad who went there when it was on St. Maarten (after the volcano on Montserrat shut that campus down and they switched islands). He is also excellent. N=2 (i.e., anecdotes don't prove or disprove any rule).

AUC and Ross are owned by DeVry. AUC is smaller and graduates fewer docs, but you can look at their website and see where they placed graduates over the past several years. What I said above still applies in that regard. And some on this forum colloquially refer to them as one of the original "big 3".

-Skip

 

[Shinken]

Does AUC count as a school that you've never heard of?

If you go to one of the so-called top three Caribbean schools (SGU, Ross, AUC) you're very likely to become a physician, as those schools have a good reputation among residency programs. Although the NRMP match data shows a very low match rate, that only applies to unknown schools in other countries, not the Caribbean, and unfortunately they're lumped together. Caribbean grads actually have close to 99%-100% match rate (refer to SGU's website for information, most placements are in very competitive specialties).

Some of the lesser-known Caribbean schools might give you a bit more trouble in matching, but you will still match if you apply broadly and make sure your application emphasizes a more humanistic/holistic approach. Remember that once you're a physician nobody cares about MCAT or USMLE scores, or where you went to school. Board failures or low grades are often overlooked by programs, if the rest of your application shows that you're a well-rounded applicant, with extracurriculars and volunteer activities.

 

[Skip Intro]

If you go to one of the so-called top three Caribbean schools (SGU, Ross, AUC) you're very likely to become a physician, as those schools have a good reputation among residency programs. Although the NRMP match data shows a very low match rate, that only applies to unknown schools in other countries, not the Caribbean, and unfortunately they're lumped together. Caribbean grads actually have close to 99%-100% match rate (refer to SGU's website for information, most placements are in very competitive specialties).

Some of the lesser-known Caribbean schools might give you a bit more trouble in matching, but you will still match if you apply broadly and make sure your application emphasizes a more humanistic/holistic approach. Remember that once you're a physician nobody cares about MCAT or USMLE scores, or where you went to school. Board failures or low grades are often overlooked by programs, if the rest of your application shows that you're a well-rounded applicant, with extracurriculars and volunteer activities.

Just stop. Please.

What purpose do you serve here? Seriously? Besides your own ego, I mean.

-Skip

 

[Skip Intro]

There were 651 confirmed residency placements in the U.S. and Canada across 46 states, territories, or provinces from Ross in 2017.

2017 Ross University Residency

Here they are in descending order:

State / #
NY 103
FL 63
MI 53
CA 48
PA 36
TX 34
IL 33
GA 29
NJ 28
CT 24
OH 18
TN 17
MD 14
WI 12
AZ 11
AR 10
LA 10
IN 9
WV 9
NC 8
VA 8
MA 7
MO 6
ND 6
NV 6
SC 6
KY 5
AL 4
IA 4
PR 4
KS 3
NM 3
RI 3
BC 2
DC 2
MN 2
ON 2
WA 2
HI 1
MS 1
MT 1
NE 1
NS 1
OK 1
OR 1

Plan accordingly.

-Skip

 

[TeddyBoomBoom]

If you go to one of the so-called top three Caribbean schools (SGU, Ross, AUC) you're very likely to become a physician, as those schools have a good reputation among residency programs. Although the NRMP match data shows a very low match rate, that only applies to unknown schools in other countries, not the Caribbean, and unfortunately they're lumped together. Caribbean grads actually have close to 99%-100% match rate (refer to SGU's website for information, most placements are in very competitive specialties).
.

For any pre-med reading this, understand that this post is 100% false.

 

[IslandStyle808]

If you go to one of the so-called top three Caribbean schools (SGU, Ross, AUC) you're very likely to become a physician, as those schools have a good reputation among residency programs. Although the NRMP match data shows a very low match rate, that only applies to unknown schools in other countries, not the Caribbean, and unfortunately they're lumped together. Caribbean grads actually have close to 99%-100% match rate (refer to SGU's website for information, most placements are in very competitive specialties).

Some of the lesser-known Caribbean schools might give you a bit more trouble in matching, but you will still match if you apply broadly and make sure your application emphasizes a more humanistic/holistic approach. Remember that once you're a physician nobody cares about MCAT or USMLE scores, or where you went to school. Board failures or low grades are often overlooked by programs, if the rest of your application shows that you're a well-rounded applicant, with extracurriculars and volunteer activities.

I have to disagree, US-IMGs seniors on average for PC specialities have a 75% match rate (this number tanks for anything more competitive). As seen on the document attached:

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf

This document has the outcomes of matching for every specialty for most Caribbean schools.


What you are describing is the placement, but I don't believe it is that high for SGU or Ross. Unfortunately the document above doesn't show placement rates, only match rates.