Do Top 20 schools really have an edge on what specialty you match into?

[ace_inhibitor111]

I've been looking through the match lists of a few Top 20 schools looking for ways to justify the $120k extra tuition it would take me to go there, and comparing these with mid-tier schools makes it difficult to justify the benefit. Northwestern, for example, hardly matches anyone to ENT, and BostonU matched like 7 people this year. Actually, if you add up all the competitive residencies (Ortho, ENT, derm, Uro, IR) for a few Top 20 schools (NYU, Mich, Sinai, Pitt, UCSD) and compare the proportion to some good mid-tier privates there is only a marginal benefit from what I've seen.

True, the quality of residencies is a lot higher for Top 20, but to justify $340k in COA I would really need to aim for a higher paying specialty and not just a high ranking pediatrics residency, for example. I also realize that match lists are affected by the preferences of the students, but I find it hard to believe that there aren't more people in the Top 20 aiming for the most desired residencies, which is more or less consistent every year. Can anyone who attends a Top 20 school verify that it is easier for students to get competitive residencies if they really wanted to? And that many just aren't aiming for them for personal reasons?

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[efle]

It's not always just a question of whether people go into a specialty, but also where within that specialty. And a lack of matches into a particular competitive specialty probably just comes from few being interested in it that year, rather than inability. Unless I'm mistaken Hopkins only sent a single person into neurosurg for example.

You're probably best off looking at databases spanning many years, like WashU provides. It would also help to know what the places are you're deciding between - Sinai vs Einstein is different than Columbia vs NYMC

 

[efle]

Edit: Just to give some examples of variation between years, WashU sent 3 Derm in 2015, and 8 the year before. 3 Ortho in 2014, 9 the following year. Trying to grab a single year and compare just the number of matches to some other school won't be that helpful.

 

[Moose A Moose]

Meh. All schools seem to match about the same amount of people into competitive specialties, but where your residency is located/academia may have some association with your Top20's clout.

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

It's not always just a question of whether people go into a specialty, but also where within that specialty. And a lack of matches into a particular competitive specialty probably just comes from few being interested in it that year, rather than inability. Unless I'm mistaken Hopkins only sent a single person into neurosurg for example.

You're probably best off looking at databases spanning many years, like WashU provides. It would also help to know what the places are you're deciding between - Sinai vs Einstein is different than Columbia vs NYMC

It is true that location matters, but when you are working as an attending, wouldn't the specialty you match into have a greater effect on your income than the location?

I've looked at multiple years and if you take into account preferences somewhat by adding matches in multiple competitive specialties instead of single specialties, the proportion stays roughly the same: not all that higher than lower tier schools (BostonU, Tufts, Georgetown, UM, UTSW(?)). I'm just surprised since a common "pro" that applicants give for choosing a more competitive school is for a greater chance of matching into a competitive specialty. Then once all is said and done they decide not to match into a competitive specialty after all. That could very well be the case but just seems harder to justify the extra cost that way.

 

[efle]

It is true that location matters, but when you are working as an attending, wouldn't the specialty you match into have a greater effect on your income than the location?

I've looked at multiple years and if you take into account preferences somewhat by adding matches in multiple competitive specialties instead of single specialties, the proportion stays roughly the same: not all that higher than lower tier schools (BostonU, Tufts, Georgetown, UM, UTSW(?)). I'm just surprised since a common "pro" that applicants give for choosing a more competitive school is for a greater chance of matching into a competitive specialty. Then once all is said and done they decide not to match into a competitive specialty after all. That could very well be the case but just seems harder to justify the extra cost that way.

Oh if your eventual goal is just a wealthy specialty, you can def get that from anywhere. There was another thread recently where i was arguing with Jalby about this and looked up a recent penn state matchlist and saw over a dozen people going ortho/derm. When people refer to the advantages of a top school, I think it's generally regarding where you match within your specialty of interest, not that a much bigger chunk of the class goes for the competitive specialties.

Looking at IM matches might be a good thing to do. Obviously a very accessible specialty overall, but if you dream of a major academic center residency followed by competitive fellowship and a career as a leader/researcher in the field, you may see more people heading down the first steps of that path on a Top Whatever list.

 

[Lucca]

It is true that location matters, but when you are working as an attending, wouldn't the specialty you match into have a greater effect on your income than the location?

I've looked at multiple years and if you take into account preferences somewhat by adding matches in multiple competitive specialties instead of single specialties, the proportion stays roughly the same: not all that higher than lower tier schools (BostonU, Tufts, Georgetown, UM, UTSW(?)). I'm just surprised since a common "pro" that applicants give for choosing a more competitive school is for a greater chance of matching into a competitive specialty. Then once all is said and done they decide not to match into a competitive specialty after all. That could very well be the case but just seems harder to justify the extra cost that way.

I think what @efle means is not location per se but the prestige and reputation associated with a particular residency program. For example, matching IM at an academic institution like MGH in Boston is a lot harder than matching IM in the middle of North Dakota at a community program.

I would agree with your assessment that if you are interested in matching *into* a specialty and not necessarily into, say, a research track residency in a competitive specialty where you will have the network of heavy hitters necessary to be competitive for an academic job at those very same institutions, *then* prestige is a really poor way to justify spending 50,100,200k more on medical school.

Both specialty and location will matter for your income, as well as practice setting. Academics do not earn as much as private practice docs, especially if they are not full time clinical. Docs working in high demand, procedural specialties are going to make more than non-proceduralists in the big city where docs are a dime a dozen. So, a spine surgeon in kansas will make more than an internist in NYC. Etc

 

[efle]

^ Yes when I say "where you match within your specialty" I don't mean geographic location, I mean how competitive a place, with major academic centers generally more fought for than community positions. A given location (like, say, St. Louis) will have a big range spanning both

 

[LizzyM]

Let's face it. Your board scores will determine in large part whether you are competitive for certain specialties just as your MCAT scores determined if you were competitive for certain medical schools. Students who go into college or who go into medical school with prior performance that was exemplary are, on average, more likely to do well in the next phase of their career than those who had prior performance that was marginal. Schools that take only students who were exemplary in undergrad are, in all likelihood, going to produce MDs who did well on the step exams and distinguished themselves in clinical clerkships. Schools that take highly motivated students who were not stellar test takers in undergrad and on the MCAT are likely to produce graduates who can pass the boards and be licensed but who do not rise to the top 5% of all MD grads.

Now, do you think it is the schools that produce great match lists or the raw material that enters the school is better at some schools than at others?

 

[efle]

Now, do you think it is the schools that produce great match lists or the raw material that enters the school is better at some schools than at others?

This one might actually be debatable, I can think of some schools with similar LizzyMs that are different otherwise

 

[Pr1d3D0c]

Let's face it. Your board scores will determine in large part whether you are competitive for certain specialties just as your MCAT scores determined if you were competitive for certain medical schools. Students who go into college or who go into medical school with prior performance that was exemplary are, on average, more likely to do well in the next phase of their career than those who had prior performance that was marginal. Schools that take only students who were exemplary in undergrad are, in all likelihood, going to produce MDs who did well on the step exams and distinguished themselves in clinical clerkships. Schools that take highly motivated students who were not stellar test takers in undergrad and on the MCAT are likely to produce graduates who can pass the boards and be licensed but who do not rise to the top 5% of all MD grads.

Now, do you think it is the schools that produce great match lists or the raw material that enters the school is better at some schools than at others?

Well I think we need to consider the wisdom usually born out in practice on SDN. I had a ~75 LizzyM and interviewed at several top 20 schools but got waitlisted at them all. I will be going to a newer school (Hof) that emphasizes high academic stats, but if I ask a majority of people on here they would conclude that I would have better chances to match in competitive places from one of the top 20's, despite my high academic success and research background. Thus, many here would argue that it is in fact the schools that matter.

 

[aalamruad]

I think what @efle means is not location per se but the prestige and reputation associated with a particular residency program. For example, matching IM at an academic institution like MGH in Boston is a lot harder than matching IM in the middle of North Dakota at a community program.

I would agree with your assessment that if you are interested in matching *into* a specialty and not necessarily into, say, a research track residency in a competitive specialty where you will have the network of heavy hitters necessary to be competitive for an academic job at those very same institutions, *then* prestige is a really poor way to justify spending 50,100,200k more on medical school.

Both specialty and location will matter for your income, as well as practice setting. Academics do not earn as much as private practice docs, especially if they are not full time clinical. Docs working in high demand, procedural specialties are going to make more than non-proceduralists in the big city where docs are a dime a dozen. So, a spine surgeon in kansas will make more than an internist in NYC. Etc

yeah I'd agree that $50.1 billion is too much for even the most prestigious medical schools

Well I think we need to consider the wisdom usually born out in practice on SDN. I had a ~75 LizzyM and interviewed at several top 20 schools but got waitlisted at them all. I will be going to a newer school (Hof) that emphasizes high academic stats, but if I ask a majority of people on here they would conclude that I would have better chances to match in competitive places from one of the top 20's, despite my high academic success and research background. Thus, many here would argue that it is in fact the schools that matter.

judging from your signature, I'd say it's the 6 institutional actions that held you back at the top 20's

 

[mikesalle]

Top schools definitely have an advantage when matching into prestigious residencies. As for competitive residencies... there is probably some sort of advantage but it is less clear. I'm willing to bet someone with a 260 at Northwestern will get more interviews in ENT than the same person with a 260 at Georgetown. On the other hand, the Feinberg name isn't going to save someone with a 230. So picking the top tier school is a question of how confident you are and how much risk you are willing to take. Can manage the debt payment if, in worse case, you do end up matching into primary care.

 

[LizzyM]

Top schools definitely have an advantage when matching into prestigious residencies. As for competitive residencies... there is probably some sort of advantage but it is less clear. I'm willing to bet someone with a 260 at Northwestern will get more interviews in ENT than the same person with a 260 at Georgetown. On the other hand, the Feinberg name isn't going to save someone with a 230. So picking the top tier school is a question of how confident you are and how much risk you are willing to take. Can manage the debt payment if, in worse case, you do end up matching into primary care.

I would have thought so too but when I had occasion to look at the residents in Ortho at Penn I was shocked at how many of them came out of Drexel (~4 of 40), IIRC it was more than came out of Penn itself.

 

[efle]

I would have thought so too but when I had occasion to look at the residents in Ortho at Penn I was shocked at how many of them came out of Drexel (~4 of 40), IIRC it was more than came out of Penn itself.

Is Penn a strong Ortho program? I know WashU has strong Ortho and looking at the residency clases of 2017-2019:

• WashU, Duke x2, Columbia, UVA, and then Oklahoma
• WashU x2, Hopkins, Michigan, Case Western and then Brown
• WashU, UVA, Emory, Vandy, Northwestern, U Chicago

So that's what ~90% graduates of very well reputed MD schools?

 

[Pr1d3D0c]

yeah I'd agree that $50.1 billion is too much for even the most prestigious medical schools


judging from your signature, I'd say it's the 6 institutional actions that held you back at the top 20's

I'm not sure if this is a joke (if so good one...) but that refers to Interviews Attended, if you were serious

 

[efle]

I'm not sure if this is a joke (if so good one...) but that refers to Interviews Attended, if you were serious

Dude he even put a comedian bowing

 

[Astra]

yeah I'd agree that $50.1 billion is too much for even the most prestigious medical schools

that moment bill gates can spend that much and still have several billion dollars left over.

 

[Pr1d3D0c]

Dude he even put a comedian bowing

He did but I thought he might have been making a joke because he perceived that I had seriously had 6IAs. I was just confirming he knew what the abbreviation was and didn't make an uninformed joke...
I had his best interest at heart!

 

[aalamruad]

He did but I thought he might have been making a joke because he perceived that I had seriously had 6IAs. I was just confirming he knew what the abbreviation was and didn't make an uninformed joke...
I had his best interest at heart!

Haha I doubt you'd get any interviews with 6 IA's, let alone multiple top-20 II's!

 

[LizzyM]

I have no idea which schools have the strongest Ortho programs or how you would even measure that although "Bro, do you even lift?" came to mind for a second.

What I am trying to say is that if you are admitted to a "top school" and turn it down because the net cost at your in-state school is so much less, I do not doubt you could do as well in the match as you would if you attended the top school.

 

[Pr1d3D0c]

Haha I doubt you'd get any interviews with 6 IA's, let alone multiple top-20 II's!

And this is true too

 

[Astra]

What I am trying to say is that if you are admitted to a "top school" and turn it down because the net cost at your in-state school is so much less, I do not doubt you could do as well in the match as you would if you attended the top school.

I would say it depends on the reasons you were admitted to the top school. If you were selected for a T20 school with average/subpar stats due to race, socioeconomic factors, or amazing extracurricular, I don't think you are just as likely to have the same level of success during the match process as someone admitted with top GPA/MCAT/Research. ( Assuming both of you are attending similarly ranked schools.)



Plus a glance of the top schools' match lists will show that even with step scores averages that are similar to mid tier schools, nearly all the students end up in top residencies.

 

[LizzyM]

I would say it depends on the reasons you were admitted to the top school. If you were selected for a T20 school with average/subpar stats due to race, socioeconomic factors, or amazing extracurricular, I don't think you are just as likely to have the same level of success during the match process as someone admitted with top GPA/MCAT/Research. ( Assuming both of you are attending similarly ranked schools.)



Plus a glance of the top schools' match lists will show that even with step scores averages that are similar to mid tier schools, nearly all the students end up in top residencies.

Have you seen match lists that show step scores. Have you ever seen step score averages by school? I haven't so if you know of these, I'd like to know about them too.

 

[Astra]

Have you seen match lists that show step scores. Have you ever seen step score averages by school? I haven't so if you know of these, I'd like to know about them too.

I haven't seen match lists that also show step scores.

As for step score averages by school: Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine: Admissions, Tuition, Rankings and Average MCAT Scores

You can browse med schools by state at the bottom.

 

[LizzyM]

I haven't seen match lists that also show step scores.

As for step score averages by school: Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine: Admissions, Tuition, Rankings and Average MCAT Scores

You can browse med schools by state at the bottom.

Very interesting. Averages are averages but I'd love to see someone with time on their hands plot average MCAT against average Step 1 and look at the outliers (lower MCAT yet higher than predicted Step 1). The outliers with poorer performance than would be expected would also be interesting. I wonder what the correlation coefficient is.

 

[sullen-burger]

Very interesting. Averages are averages but I'd love to see someone with time on their hands plot average MCAT against average Step 1 and look at the outliers (lower MCAT yet higher than predicted Step 1). The outliers with poorer performance than would be expected would also be interesting. I wonder what the correlation coefficient is.

Oh, there are more than enough geeks and nerds running amok here that they'll have that regression finished for you and more.

And all by sundown.


Eastern Time.

 

[Pr1d3D0c]

Very interesting. Averages are averages but I'd love to see someone with time on their hands plot average MCAT against average Step 1 and look at the outliers (lower MCAT yet higher than predicted Step 1). The outliers with poorer performance than would be expected would also be interesting. I wonder what the correlation coefficient is.

For all intents and purposes, is MCAT supposed to be highly correlated with Step 1 scores? I remember a big debate on this a few weeks ago, but it does seem like the schools with high average step one have more rigorous admissions statistics.

 

[efle]

For all intents and purposes, is MCAT supposed to be highly correlated with Step 1 scores? I remember a big debate on this a few weeks ago, but it does seem like the schools with high average step one have more rigorous admissions statistics.

iirc the best giant meta-analysis I ever saw found that GPA + MCAT composite was the best overall predictor, with an r of like .65

And really these step score averages aren't that impressive. The overall 50th percentile of the entire medical school pool is a 230. Schools like Duke or Hopkins being 236-238 (or like ~60th percentile) is a pretty minor bump for all the hype they get

 

[efle]

Altho, knowing that Hopkins average step score was only about 60th percentile makes its match list far more impressive and lends more credence to the hype.

 

[LizzyM]

iirc the best giant meta-analysis I ever saw found that GPA + MCAT composite was the best overall predictor, with an r of like .65

And really these step score averages aren't that impressive. The overall 50th percentile of the entire medical school pool is a 230. Schools like Duke or Hopkins being 236-238 (or like ~60th percentile) is a pretty minor bump for all the hype they get

It's an AVERAGE.

To make an undergrad analogy. Imagine someone with a perfect score on the ACT and the SAT. They get into Yale, Harvard, Princeton and Stanford but decide to attend their flagship state school because of the low tuition and because it is closer to home. What would you expect that single student's MCAT score to be? Regardless of the average for any school, the cream will rise to the top and there will be students who are exceptional and they will do well wherever they end up.

 

[efle]

It's an AVERAGE.

To make an undergrad analogy. Imagine someone with a perfect score on the ACT and the SAT. They get into Yale, Harvard, Princeton and Stanford but decide to attend their flagship state school because of the low tuition and because it is closer to home. What would you expect that single student's MCAT score to be? Regardless of the average for any school, the cream will rise to the top and there will be students who are exceptional and they will do well wherever they end up.

Well, the relevant analogy here would be "Princeton is known for admissions standards far above the typical school, especially on the SAT. How would you expect their average MCAT to compare to the nation?"

I'd guess a hell of a lot higher than 50th percentile, and it is a hell of a lot higher than 50th percentile (it's like 33-35 iirc).

 

[LizzyM]

Well, the relevant analogy here would be "Princeton is known for admissions standards far above the typical school, especially on the SAT. How would you expect their average MCAT to compare to the nation?"

I'd guess a hell of a lot higher than 50th percentile, and it is a hell of a lot higher than 50th percentile (it's like 33-35 iirc).

The question here is if someone who is so good that they get admitted to Princeton but matriculate at Florida or Oklahoma or whatever state school (due to cost), would you expect that student might at least match the average MCAT score coming out of Princeton or would their score be more along the lines of the average for undergrads coming out of their undergrad institution?

 

[ERDOC555]

I've been looking through the match lists of a few Top 20 schools looking for ways to justify the $120k extra tuition it would take me to go there, and comparing these with mid-tier schools makes it difficult to justify the benefit. Northwestern, for example, hardly matches anyone to ENT, and BostonU matched like 7 people this year. Actually, if you add up all the competitive residencies (Ortho, ENT, derm, Uro, IR) for a few Top 20 schools (NYU, Mich, Sinai, Pitt, UCSD) and compare the proportion to some good mid-tier privates there is only a marginal benefit from what I've seen.

True, the quality of residencies is a lot higher for Top 20, but to justify $340k in COA I would really need to aim for a higher paying specialty and not just a high ranking pediatrics residency, for example. I also realize that match lists are affected by the preferences of the students, but I find it hard to believe that there aren't more people in the Top 20 aiming for the most desired residencies, which is more or less consistent every year. Can anyone who attends a Top 20 school verify that it is easier for students to get competitive residencies if they really wanted to? And that many just aren't aiming for them for personal reasons?

I don't necessarily think the responses so far fully answered your question, so I'll give you my thoughts from talking with faculty, PDs, and looking at match lists.

Undoubtedly going to a top 20 school makes it easier to match a competitive specialty, period. Look at some of these tops schools and you see more derm matches than family medicine (not all schools, but these do exist). If we counted every competitive specialty I think we would see a massive difference in competitive specialties between the random state/private schools and the top 20-30 schools.

That being said, school name only helps so much. A top student at most state schools can probably match into any competitive specialty if they put in the time and effort, however they will be held to higher standards than similar applicants at top 20 schools. A 240 from a top 20 school may be sufficient for matching derm (assuming everything else is good), but how many interviews do you think a similar applicant with a 240 is going to get who went to University of South Dakota? (Sorry, just picking a random state, no offense)

TLDR: Competitive specialties may be more forgiving to applicants from top schools, however a smart/capable student at a state school can match into any specialty with a great application/scores.

 

[efle]

The question here is if someone who is so good that they get admitted to Princeton but matriculate at Florida or Oklahoma or whatever state school (due to cost), would you expect that student might at least match the average MCAT score coming out of Princeton or would their score be more along the lines of the average for undergrads coming out of their undergrad institution?

Oh I get what you're saying! I thought you were disagreeing with the bottom half of my post you quoted, where I was saying it was surprising how low the step averages for some top schools were as a whole.

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

I don't necessarily think the responses so far fully answered your question, so I'll give you my thoughts from talking with faculty, PDs, and looking at match lists.

Undoubtedly going to a top 20 school makes it easier to match a competitive specialty, period. Look at some of these tops schools and you see more derm matches than family medicine (not all schools, but these do exist). If we counted every competitive specialty I think we would see a massive difference in competitive specialties between the random state/private schools and the top 20-30 schools.

That being said, school name only helps so much. A top student at most state schools can probably match into any competitive specialty if they put in the time and effort, however they will be held to higher standards than similar applicants at top 20 schools. A 240 from a top 20 school may be sufficient for matching derm (assuming everything else is good), but how many interviews do you think a similar applicant with a 240 is going to get who went to University of South Dakota? (Sorry, just picking a random state, no offense)

TLDR: Competitive specialties may be more forgiving to applicants from top schools, however a smart/capable student at a state school can match into any specialty with a great application/scores.

Oh man I really, really want this to be true, especially since I love the school I got accepted to, but there are just so many exceptions to the rule that I wonder if the benefit is really there.

I'll talk about Florida schools since that's what I know. FIU and UCF, both brand new schools with no reputation, matched 9 in Ortho and 6 in dermatology respectively. FIU went 14/15 I believe in competitive matches. UM had 10 derm matches last year (though many were had research years but still a lot). Meanwhile, one "top" school I'm considering never had more than 5 derm matches in the past 15 years. Another has a max of about 8 Ortho from a few years ago but not much since then. Granted they had good matches elsewhere, but it is never more than 20% of the class. It's as if the Top quintile of students of each school gets the most competitive specialties, and then the name of the school determines the "prestige" level of the matches within the specialties.

 

[mikesalle]

Let's face it. Your board scores will determine in large part whether you are competitive for certain specialties just as your MCAT scores determined if you were competitive for certain medical schools. Students who go into college or who go into medical school with prior performance that was exemplary are, on average, more likely to do well in the next phase of their career than those who had prior performance that was marginal. Schools that take only students who were exemplary in undergrad are, in all likelihood, going to produce MDs who did well on the step exams and distinguished themselves in clinical clerkships. Schools that take highly motivated students who were not stellar test takers in undergrad and on the MCAT are likely to produce graduates who can pass the boards and be licensed but who do not rise to the top 5% of all MD grads.

Now, do you think it is the schools that produce great match lists or the raw material that enters the school is better at some schools than at others?

But there are a decent amount of people every year who get into derm and such with Step 1 scores of <230. Who are these people? I'm guessing students from top schools with the connections and prestige to overcome their low scores.

 

[efle]

Yeah I gotta say, when you look at a match list from somewhere like Hopkins and have context of a 238 average step score...they are doing absurdly well

 

[Dwan]

It's hard to judge how much easier top schools have it for top specialties just by counting the #s because a lot of their top students want to go into IM and plan to subspecialize. All their IM matches are to top places, which is just as competitive as matching into a competitive specialty.

 

[LePepe]

Very interesting. Averages are averages but I'd love to see someone with time on their hands plot average MCAT against average Step 1 and look at the outliers (lower MCAT yet higher than predicted Step 1). The outliers with poorer performance than would be expected would also be interesting. I wonder what the correlation coefficient is.

I've been meaning to do this. I just need to devote some time to learn more about web scraping. Right now I'm a noob and I can only scrape single pages. I need to learn how to actually navigate a browser.

I'll have it by 4/31.

 

[efle]

I've been meaning to do this. I just need to devote some time to learn more about web scraping. Right now I'm a noob and I can only scrape single pages. I need to learn how to actually navigate a browser.

I'll have it by 4/31.

Very interesting. Averages are averages but I'd love to see someone with time on their hands plot average MCAT against average Step 1 and look at the outliers (lower MCAT yet higher than predicted Step 1). The outliers with poorer performance than would be expected would also be interesting. I wonder what the correlation coefficient is.

It's been done before at least for the top couple dozen or so. Albeit five years old now. This chronicidal guy seems likes someone I'd like!

I'm curious about a more current and bigger data set...but not curious enough to deal with gathering the step scores.

 

[LePepe]

It's been done before at least for the top couple dozen or so. Albeit five years old now. This chronicidal guy seems likes someone I'd like!

Interesting. Pretty shocking how low UCSF and Case are.

I'm curious about a more current and bigger data set...but not curious enough to deal with gathering the step scores.

I mean... it shouldn't be a big deal as long as you aren't foolish enough to try doing it manually

 

[efle]

Interesting. Pretty shocking how low UCSF and Case are.


I mean... it shouldn't be a big deal as long as you aren't foolish enough to try doing it manually

UCSF has historically been much lower than any of the similarly-ranked peers. That may just be due to people emphasizing it less - something I hear about them often is that they have a lot more people interested in primary care/underserved

Bruh, the MSAR can't be scraped...manually is the only option if you want a nice sortable excel doc. Besides for US News getting all the step 1 values down would only take like 45 mins if you can do a few per minute

 

[libertyyne]

Very interesting. Averages are averages but I'd love to see someone with time on their hands plot average MCAT against average Step 1 and look at the outliers (lower MCAT yet higher than predicted Step 1). The outliers with poorer performance than would be expected would also be interesting. I wonder what the correlation coefficient is.

Ask and you shall recieve, I did this six months ago.

View attachment 210550

With all the limitations in mind of the quality of the data and my abstraction method Just look at Missouri. They are hitting way above their median mcat would predict. And apparently it isnt something that is a fluke for one year. What are they doing? Are they better liars? Curious Minds want to know. But I think the most illuminating thing out of this entire conversation is that Medical schools publish input data- MCAT, GPA and such but do not publish performance data on the STEPs? Why not? Why rely on data like percent passing the step or percent completing medical training in 4 years. If they are so sure of their performance or quality of education provided, why not publish the data?

View attachment 210554

Here is the thread. US news or start class

 

[libertyyne]

A few assumptions
1. Higher mcat medians will translate to higher STEP 1 scores.
2. More competitive specialties prefer higher step scores.
3. Candidates that go to top schools will on average have higher MCAT scores and higher Step scores.

So if there was a way to adjust for this in interpreting match lists I have a sneaking suspicion it will come down to home program connections of the school.
Here are a few reasons why.
1. more exposure if you have a strong home program .
2. Ability to gain research in the field and build connections .
3. Get letters from respected members of that specialty which are more longitudinal in nature. word of mouth advocacy for the candidate and trust of the programs in the letter writers as they personally know the person on the other end writing the letter.
4. Help crafting the best application for that specific specialty considering the home program know's how the game is played.

All of this analysis is confounded by smaller class sizes and as efle has mentioned that multi-year match lists should be considered. I suspect that having strong home programs plays a large role in strong placement after adjusting for MCAT confounders.

 

[LizzyM]

Thanks @libertyyne

 

[efle]

I had this data from a few years back for some reason. Different years from Lib above pretty sure but similar plot. Credit to @planeblue for at least half of it if I recall correctly. 83 schools:

Places most over-performing and under-performing for the years used:

 

[efle]

Looks like Missouri is pretty consistent with kicking way more butt than expected

 

[libertyyne]

Looks like Missouri is pretty consistent with kicking way more butt than expected

That and Baylor, either they are very good at consistently lying or there is something about the curricula or selection process for their medical students.

 

[LePepe]

Looks like Missouri is pretty consistent with kicking way more butt than expected

Interesting how their match list doesn't seem overly impressive to me though: Match Day 2017 | UMKC School of Medicine

Makes you wonder if the OP is onto something